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TMZ Live -- Dr. Arnie Klein ... Take Two

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I think this is very important in term of determining who caused and when the needle bruises or puncture wounds happened : Murray most likely might blame the paramedics for them because it is very difficult to determine who caused what that day .



7. Antemortem and postmortem bruise-
It is at times advantageous to the defence to determine whether a bruise is antemortem or postmortem in origin. It is not unusual to find that the injury reports may have a mention of less number of bruises than that of the postmortem report of the same case particularly when the person dies after a transit from one place to another. It is difficult to account for this and sometimes the accompanying injuries which may be responsible for the death of the person may have been mentioned as" postmortem" in origin by the medical officer. In such cases the proof of the nature of bruises will of help to the defence to corelate the the defence theory. It is specially to be noted that the bruise which is produced by an injury or a fall immediately
after death, closely resembles the one that is produced during life. This fact is of great importance.

In antemortem bruise, there will be certain amount of swelling and it will show colour changes if the person survives for sometime after recieving the injury. These signs are absent in case of bruise produced after death, though discolouration may be seen.

Additional information of value for the defence:-
The defence lawyers should also make use of the following:-
1. The dates given in respect of the colour changes and the determination of the age of a bruise,is mostly derived

2. A bruise is likely to be disfigured by putrefication.
3. It is extremely difficult to distinguish between an antemortem bruise and a bruise that is produced immediately
after death.Sir Robert Christison has proved by experiments that it was difficult to distinguish between an antemortem bruise
and a bruise that is produced within 3-4 hours after death using great force (Modi).
4. Postmortem staining resembles a bruise and a medical officer may make a mistake in identifying a bruise from a patch of postmortem staining at postmortem examination. The postmortem staining is found on the dependent parts of the body on
the position in which the body was lying after death. It does not show colour changes as are found in case of a bruise.
5. Prinston and Goddon of South Africa have drawn attention to the fact that an artefact which simulates a bruise in tissues on the neck can be produced when removing the part at autopsy and this can certainly occur from the ruprture of the Pharyngo-oesophageal plexus (Gradwhol Page 279).
6. A bruise may not appear at the site of injury but appear at a place remote from the place of injury due to gravity shifting of the extravasated blood (Gradwhol-page 278). Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence also mentions "Bruises are spreading and moving things".
7. In the presence of good muscle tone, as in boxers and trained atheletes, bruising is undoubtedly reduced in severity (Camps and Purchase - page 353).
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certainly the paramedics did not take photos of mj's body before they worked on him and for two hours that DEAD BODY was injected many times so no surprise at all he was riddled with needle marks . murray seems smarter than i previously thought . along with the fire place and refusing to sign the death certificate murray did have alot of time to do this, another indication mj was long dead when the paramedics arrived .
 
williamorange1 said:
I think this is very important in term of determining who caused and when the needle bruises or puncture wounds happened : Murray most likely might blame the paramedics for them because it is very difficult to determine who caused what that day .
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That is true. If anyone of you watch Intervention or Gone Too Far, you noticed that heavy iv users do not have holes in their arms, but bruisers. It looked like they got hit repeatedly in some areas. So, if they were just holes in his arms, it happen while trying to revive him. I think TMZ are getting their drug addict facts from CSI. Maybe we should recommend these shows for TMZ and Klien so they can educate their ignorance butts.

For the record, I do not believe Murray gave propofol for six weeks straight. Michael's organs were healthy. If he did give him all those drugs during that period, his organs would had been damage in some way. Klien pushing this idea of an addict is really stupid.

To be blunt, I think this is another one of Murry's BS stories to say Michael became addict to propofol to get his butt out of the fire. For a doctor, did this guy honestly research this drug? I think Murray and Klien got their doctors degree in the mail.
 
Age of a bruise-

(a) . To begin with, a bruise is red in colour.
(b). Within next 3 days, it appears blue or bluish black or brown or livid red.
(c) By the 5th or 6th day, it becomes greenish.
(d). Between 7th and 12th day, it becomes yellow. This yellow colour fades away gradually by the 14th or 15th day when the skin regains its normal colour.



see it will be easy to determine whether those needle marks or puncture wounds happened before that day , but it will be difficult to distinguish between the marks made by murray and the paramedics that day even for the coroner .

Murray could have injected mj many times before the paramedics arrived to support the "overdose scene " he DEFINITELY created , and that's why he instructed the paramedics to stay at home and refused to move mj to the hospital although there was no injury that would prevent them from doing so . there is no way now in proving that murray not the paramedics caused some of those injections before or immediately after mj's death.
 
williamorange1 said:
Age of a bruise-

(a) . To begin with, a bruise is red in colour.
(b). Within next 3 days, it appears blue or bluish black or brown or livid red.
(c) By the 5th or 6th day, it becomes greenish.
(d). Between 7th and 12th day, it becomes yellow. This yellow colour fades away gradually by the 14th or 15th day when the skin regains its normal colour.



see it will be easy to determine whether those needle marks or puncture wounds happened before that day , but it will be difficult to distinguish between the marks made by murray and the paramedics that day even for the coroner .

Murray could have injected mj many times before the paramedics arrived to support the "overdose scene " he DEFINITELY created , and that's why he instructed the paramedics to stay at home and refused to move mj to the hospital although there was no injury that would prevent them from doing so . there is no way now in proving that murray not the paramedics caused some of those injections before or immediately after mj's death.
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The only problem with that theory is that Murray must be counting on everyone being as dumb as he obvious is.

Even if Michael's arms are "riddle" with needle marks, the tox report would still be the same. He was filled with drugs that Murry admitted to given himself. So, unless he was praying that Michael took something on the side, I cannot see how filling him with holes helps.

Unless Murray thought that by staging an OD scene would somehow keep the coroner from doing a tox report, this cover is half bake to put it nicely.
 
Ramona , the "overdose scene" was murray initial plan when he tried to cover his ass by hiding propofol and any drug related to its usage , he abandoned this plan once he met his lawyer because he figured it was not gonna working . yet, such evidence would certainly support the believe that murray did not help mj at all and may very well left him to die .
 
kasume said:
I also read that Prince was asked wether he saw his father without a shirt, and Prince said plenty of times, and he was asked wether he saw any marks and Prince said his father didnt have a lot of marks, only two. One on his left wrist and one on the right. This story was from that friend of Joe Jackson I think, I forgot his name. They appeared on Larry King Live together.

But dang, who are we to believe?

I think his two oldest children would be a big help for the trial. But then that wouldnt be right to ask them questions about their father like that. But also, they really could hold some keys.......idk.
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A recent article with quotes from Joe is in the Investigative Forum. Joe says he never said that Prince told him that MJ was covered with needle marks. Instead he basically says what you do: the marks which were there were for the IV; one on each arm. Its in the thread titled "Interview with Joe. He says Dr Murray is fall guy."

LoveMyArabians said:
I didn't see this mentioned... but I swear Arnie said you can read more in the book... which means... he is going to write a book.

Did anyone else hear this?
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:doh: Not another "friend"...
 
What is he talking about? I can't understand a word he's mumbling.....blah... blah.... blah.......Is he really a doctor? I think he should see a speech therapy......coz he definitely has a problem in that area........


Is he not aware of any doctor's ethics or doctor/patient confidentiality....I can't believe a doctors can actually discussed his patient's conditions or his patient in a live broadcast.........

I'm so sick and tired of all of these....... I'm really so disappointed in all of these so-called closed friends of MJ........too sickening for them to be doing all of these stuff to MJ........
 
I thought doctors and medical information of patients was confidential. Farah Fawcett sued for disclosing medical info on her.

The people like Klein have no ethics whatsoever and seem to be disclosing confidential info which actually looks like disinfo to me. Sowhat they are saying should be taken with a pinch of salt. Why is Klein talking to media for $$$$$$$ of course, let us not forget that, and to attempt to cover up something probably
 
sannahchu said:
What is he talking about? I can't understand a word he's mumbling.....blah... blah.... blah.......Is he really a doctor? I think he should see a speech therapy......coz he definitely has a problem in that area........


Is he not aware of any doctor's ethics or doctor/patient confidentiality....I can't believe a doctors can actually discussed his patient's conditions or his patient in a live broadcast.........

I'm so sick and tired of all of these....... I'm really so disappointed in all of these so-called closed friends of MJ........too sickening for them to be doing all of these stuff to MJ........
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I agree
 
murray's initial plan was not to admit he gave him anything beside lorazepam . his initial plan was changed only after he met his lawyer and they studied his story and the facts more carefully and determined that the coroner would be able to determine that murray gave mj the drugs .
 
Gaiaschild said:
I thought doctors and medical information of patients was confidential. Farah Fawcett sued for disclosing medical info on her.

The people like Klein have no ethics whatsoever and seem to be disclosing confidential info which actually looks like disinfo to me. Sowhat they are saying should be taken with a pinch of salt. Why is Klein talking to media for $$$$$$$ of course, let us not forget that, and to attempt to cover up something probably
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well, no one seem to care enough to sue Klien, that's why he keep saying his lawyers want him to shut up but he won't. he knows no one is gonna sue him for saying that. he is worried about a lawsuit that claim he was enabling mj coming from the family . he is threatining to ruin mj's reputation , but the family as you know klien cares less about mj;'s reputation. Randy is gonna sue you for providing "his junkie unstable big brother" with drugs , not because you are claiming he used to pee infront of kids .
 
williamorange1 said:
murray's initial plan was not to admit he gave him anything beside lorazepam . his initial plan was changed only after he met his lawyer and they studied his story and the facts more carefully and determined that the coroner would be able to determine that murray gave mj the drugs .
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One problem, if his plan was to only admit he gave him lorazepam, but he was hoping would happen? Was he only his knees praying that the propofol would not be detective, even Michael was dead before his body could get rid of it. Was he also hoping that Michael took something he did not know about so support this initial plan?

It does not add up, even if he did not talk to his lawyer. Like I said before, it sounds like he was hoping that everyone would be as dumb as he is. Also, even with the fireplace trick, I think the coroner would notice certain signs that would tell them the time of death was off.

Granted, Murray could had compose this brilliance plan in a blind panic and did not think to the end conclusion. Instead, he made himself look even worst, which is quick a feat.
 
I really felt bad to all of these saga........POOR MJ...even in DEATH he's still being abused and being used...........
 
Klein is simply trying to cover his ass as the time weens down, I highly doubt that Klein is just innocent in all of this, Michael was in his office atleast twice a week in the months leading up to TII, There's more to Klein's story than he's letting out.


And to keep the authorities off his trail (in his mind), is to throw dirt and speak false accusations of his so called "friend"...Most of MJ's camp is beginning to get to me.


It just makes me wonder how people could be so evil as to smile to you and speak highly of you in your presence, but once your gone and shit hits the fan, within the snap of a finger, those same "friends" are telling of all your problems and adding speculation and plain old nonsense to that.


This World is so undeserving of people like Michael.
 
Re: TMZ Live sucks

TMZ, what a bunch of vultures. I hate their website. First time I ever visited the thing and I feel like I need another shower now. Yuck. Don't believe any of that crap.
 
Klein makes no sense in some parts. He makes things sound so plausible. He is one vile little man. How the hell would he know certain details about the investigation, like who Murray called? What the paramedics found? etc. He is making this crap up. He wasn't there. He claims to know information from the family yet calls them leeches in the same breath. I could be wrong but I doubt he is friendly with the Jackson family. Claiming they tried an intervention 2 days before he died?! That's a lie. He is covering his ass and spreading rumours to deflect him. What an egotistical man. Obviously Debbie blames him for his death. LOL! I wonder are the police watching every move he makes.
 
That interview was so WEIRD! Klein misspoke, lied, told some truth, and had inconsistencies!

He thinks this is gonna help him or Michael? Klien and Harvey are now like friends and shit? EWWW!

Calling MJ his best friend but, didn't talk to him at all during the 2005 trial.... what kind of friend is that? Then he said he hadn't spoken to him since 2003? But, wasn't MJ at his house for X-mas of 08? LOL

Saying MJ peed in a cup in his office because he didn't want to go to the bathroom because he would have to go pass the hallways and he didn't want people to recognize him is stupid since MJ had no problem in the last weeks of his life going in and out of his office and people seeing him, fans and the paps, plus, he said that MJ dance for his patience too, so this don't sound like someone who doesn't want to be seen.

Plus, he never ask MJ if he peed in front of children he didn't even say that, he just assumes it because MJ he said peed in his office before? O__O Harvey didn't even bother to ask if MJ himself told klein if that's what happened! He just takes klein explanation like it's the truth! Plus, like I said before this wasn't even a defense in the trial so it's really stupid!

And yes, Klein did say he will write more about it (MJ), which sounds like a damn book, yet he bitches at the thought of Debbie writing a book.....unbelievable! She or he better not even think of it!

And what can I say about Murray that u guys haven't already said u guess make good points! Murray is one of the worst damn doctors I every heard of! All for MONEY him and Klein! I mean that's the reason why Klein was so stupid to do this interview which sadly isn't the last, as u clearly hear him say to Harvey, he wants to do another....UGH! He isn't doing good business anymore because his reputation went to shit after MJ died so he is now everywhere trying to save his own ass! LOL
 
he contradicts himself so many times and uses Tabloid fodder that he read when trying to attack others
Its all something he said he read in tabloids :LOL: blah blah blah and then when he was bringing his
ex -gay lover in as a credible witness about a phone call made to his office - I about puked - That is
the same slob who was stating to the tabloids he was having a gay relationship with Michael _Then
Haevey kind of cut him off with that discussion_Thank God _ These people are spawned from the devil ...

This is just too incredible
Klein is dispicable to reveal any of this shyt_ Most is complete fabrications_ What I found interesting is
he said MJ only contacted him recently to work on his face for the concerts _ that must have been
around Christmas when he took his kids to Murrys house _ Prior to that they hadnt had any contact since
2003 _ so I dont think they were best of friends as Klien claims _ probably the only time MJ was there
Michael just wanted him to work on his face _

I believe there was some truth to some things he said .. but there was so much Bull shyt and twisting of stories
You couldnt tell fact from fiction with this man - I felt a painful lump in my heart listening to him _ he makes me weep ..

I always though he was wierd mouthy sometimes but I didnt realise he would stab Mj in the BACK .. like this :(

Dr Klien sounds very unstable and is vicious gossip_ he talks openly about his so called patients private matters


OMG he didnt want to stop blabbering he was enjoying it too much. Man I was having an anxiety attack
listenng and watching him spew green slime from his mouth like Linda Blair in the _ exorcist

I dont even think even he realises what he is doing he sounds complety off his Rocker -
If he does know then he is a demon (satan servant)

When will this ever end _ Im so angry Im shaking
Why do they do this to Michael ... WHY ???
 
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sannahchu said:
I really felt bad to all of these saga........POOR MJ...even in DEATH he's still being abused and being used...........
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I agree and I think it's weird how Klein seems to be friends with a few celebrities. How do they trust him? He seems like he was high on something with the way he was slurring throughout the interview. I didn't know that joe jackson was the one that introduced dr. Murray to Michael. I don't think we'll ever really know the whole truth about Michael's death. will they ever arrest Dr Murray for his murder?
 
bluetopez said:
That interview was so WEIRD! Klein misspoke, lied, told some truth, and had inconsistencies!

He thinks this is gonna help him or Michael? Klien and Harvey are now like friends and shit? EWWW!

Calling MJ his best friend but, didn't talk to him at all during the 2005 trial.... what kind of friend is that? Then he said he hadn't spoken to him since 2003? But, wasn't MJ at his house for X-mas of 08? LOL

Saying MJ peed in a cup in his office because he didn't want to go to the bathroom because he would have to go pass the hallways and he didn't want people to recognize him is stupid since MJ had no problem in the last weeks of his life going in and out of his office and people seeing him, fans and the paps, plus, he said that MJ dance for his patience too, so this don't sound like someone who doesn't want to be seen.

Plus, he never ask MJ if he peed in front of children he didn't even say that, he just assumes it because MJ he said peed in his office before? O__O Harvey didn't even bother to ask if MJ himself told klein if that's what happened! He just takes klein explanation like it's the truth! Plus, like I said before this wasn't even a defense in the trial so it's really stupid!

And yes, Klein did say he will write more about it (MJ), which sounds like a damn book, yet he bitches at the thought of Debbie writing a book.....unbelievable! She or he better not even think of it!

And what can I say about Murray that u guys haven't already said u guess make good points! Murray is one of the worst damn doctors I every heard of! All for MONEY him and Klein! I mean that's the reason why Klein was so stupid to do this interview which sadly isn't the last, as u clearly hear him say to Harvey, he wants to do another....UGH! He isn't doing good business anymore because his reputation went to shit after MJ died so he is now everywhere trying to save his own ass! LOL
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Geez, everyone is writing a book about Michael. The fake Rabbi, his crazy make-up artist, now a$$-hole doctor. Who is next, Michael's bodyguard and Bubbles.

And I thought Michael's life was a circus when was alive.
 
I think even Harvey was giving him odd looks like he didn't completely believe him either
 
The more I read about these idiots (people like Klein...pretending to be Michael's friends but actually proving to be worse than his enemies), the better I can deal with Michael's passing. He is WAY better off now. I'm just sorry Michael had to deal with these morons while he was alive.
 
Dutchie said:
The more I read about these idiots (people like Klein...pretending to be Michael's friends but actually proving to be worse than his enemies), the better I can deal with Michael's passing. He is WAY better off now. I'm just sorry Michael had to deal with these morons while he was alive.
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oh god don't say that he's not better off dead!
 
Sorry, but I would like to know this: is it allowed for doctors of any kind to go to the press with medical/ private information? I know that in my country you would loose your licence if you did that.
Sorry- but I am a bit confused about this.
 
movingcoolcat said:
Sorry, but I would like to know this: is it allowed for doctors of any kind to go to the press with medical/ private information? I know that in my country you would loose your licence if you did that.
Sorry- but I am a bit confused about this.
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That is exactly what I want to say...
 
I can see lawsuits stacking up for Dr Klein, he obviously hasn't thought this through. I'm also sure that be broke patient confidentiality more than once.
 
movingcoolcat said:
Sorry, but I would like to know this: is it allowed for doctors of any kind to go to the press with medical/ private information? I know that in my country you would loose your licence if you did that.
Sorry- but I am a bit confused about this.
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As we all are. I don't know what the rules in the States are as it was only in Oct 2007 when it became law in the UK that doctor-patient confidentiality does remain intact after a person has died. It wasn't before hand as what governs medical information is part of the data protection act which only applys to living individuals.
 
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