Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[elusive moonwalker]

why do these loonies do anything.! it not like she did anything out of the oridinary. she went to L.A to get some attention and that was it. im not inclined to believe anything about her until it comes out in court. even more so when she claimed mj wanted her to have his baby

 

[ruchie]

Why would she go to L.A and pretend to have been interviewed by the police? LOL

To get facetime I guess...:tease::no:

 

[Ingelief]

who are we talking about?

 

[sophie]

That might also explain the many flumazenil vials found with Murray.Flumazenil is used to counter the benzos effect.

i have the same theory regarding murray using benzos to keep mj sedated over the night, and use propofol only for "show effect" to induce sleep. i was posting this here last year when we discussed the autopsy report.

i also wonder whether murray always gave a second propofol bolus when mj was waking up, and he messed it up on june 25 because he was distracted by his gf and gave the bolus too fast. this would also explain why he had a propofol bolus ready at hand when he realized mj was coughing and waking up.

my theory is: when mj showed first signs of waking up murray injected a propofol bolus, quickly followed by a flumazenil injection to counter the benzo effect. i believe he had to do this because propofol has a specific "wake-up feel" which to my knowledge is very different to waking up from lorazepam. i dont think murray could have fooled mj unless he gave him a propofol shot at wake-up time and made sure the benzo-effect wore off quickly.

i actually do not believe that mj had already developed a dependency on lorazepam, if/when/which withdrawal symptoms show is individually different. but going by ortegas testimony it seems first signs something was wrong were showing the week before mj died.

i'm not sure whether murray had intended for mj to develop a dependency, i rather believe he just didn't care and thought he could somehow handle the situation. to murray it was much more important to secure his contract with aeg, and to use benzos and a few propofol bolus shots for "show effect" was (in his opinion) a smart way to give mj the feeling no drugs who can cause dependency were administered, but the same time there was no need for him to have the kind of equipment and training needed to administer propofol: an iv stand, oxygen tanks, an ambu bag, a pulse oxinometer.. all these things were in the room, how was mj to know a propofol infusion is always given by using an iv pump, that an ambu bag is not the same thing as intubation equipment? this would explain his incredible recklessness not to have intubation equipment in the room when sedating a patient with propofol. murray obviously felt the small amounts of propofol he'd actually inject wouldn't cause any problems... well, he was wrong.

to reduce withdrawal symptoms i believe murray gave mj diazepam which has a long half life. diazepam was found in the body. read here about diazepam to wean patients of lorazepam:

http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/lorazepam.html

i have read that flumazenil could be helpful too to keep withdrawal symptoms in check. read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

More recent research is showing promise with the use of flumazenil in the management of benzodiazepine detoxification. Flumazenil has been found to stimulate the reversal of tolerance and the normalization of receptor function. However, further research is needed in the form of randomised trials to demonstrate its role in the treatment of benzdiazepine withdrawal.[104] Flumazenil stimulates the up-regulation and reverses the uncoupling of benzodiazepine receptors to the GABAA receptor thereby reversing tolerance and reducing withdrawal symptoms and relapse rates.[116][117] Due to only limited research and experience and possible risks involved the flumazenil detoxification method is controversial and can only be done as an inpatient procedure under medical supervision.

another thing i believe murray gave to subdue the effect of the benzos is ephedrine. ephedrine was found in the urine and eca stack pills were found in the hidden bag. i wondered why no aspirin was found in urine, half lifes of ephedrine and aspirin are not so different to my knowledge. but i think i've figured it out:
they found orange juice at mj's bedside, mj was probably drinking juice before he went to bed. orange juice leads to urine alkalinization which means aspirin (salicylate) is eliminated faster, while at the same time ephedrine takes longer to leave:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813155-treatment

Urinary alkalinization, induced by increased sodium bicarbonate concentrations, may cause decreased levels of lithium, tetracyclines, chlorpropamide, methotrexate, and salicylates; increases levels of amphetamines, pseudoephedrine, flecainide, anorexiants, mecamylamine, ephedrine, quinidine, and quinine; may inactivate sympathomimetic agents (eg, epinephrine, norepinephrine)

http://www.ctds.info/acidic-foods.html

Very Alkaline Foods Include:

Bananas
Chocolate
Figs
Mineral water
Orange juice
Potatoes
Spinach
Watermelon
Dandelion Greens

Please note that some foods, such as citrus fruits, have an acid pH before they are consumed and but they usually leave an alkaline residue in the body after they have been metabolized.

can someone with medical knowledge comment if this theory makes sense? thanks

 

[ruchie]

who are we talking about?

The one that said that MJ wanted her to have his baby.... I might be wrong....But she's wrong if she thought that was gonna happen.:bugeyed.....

 

[xthunderx2]

To get facetime I guess...:tease::no:

:lmao:,,,thanks I needed a good laugh..

 

[summer]

That's the expert opinion, all the medications were difficult to administer not only propofol. Bolus injections MJ would not have been able to do it, IV drip anyone including Mike.

That's why for months we were saying the coroner ruled out any possibility of propofol being given as an IV drip inorder for them to say it was a homicide.

as for the 10cc syringe, the toxicology report was published, propofol concentrations in the urine were known. Very small amount given, nothing exceeding 200 mg , probably a 10cc syringe in the hours preceding death.
If that was the pattern then MJ's death was caused by another injection with a similar 10cc syringe , documented evidence of other cases where death occurred due to normal but rapid dose.
The coroner never said it was an overdose, the coroner said it was similar to concentrations under general anaesthesia which was very true. Blood concentrations under general anesthesia are between 2.4 - 8 ug/ml. MJ's was 4.1 ug/ml. If it was given via a bolus injection , it means he died within one minute.

Where did you read that only a very small amount, nothing exceeding 200mg, was given? Can you post that from the coroner's report or somewhere else? Because I don't recall hearing that. I only recall the coroner saying Michael died from a "lethal dose" of Propofol. 200mg would not be lethal, or most patients in the OR would already be dead in the beginning of surgery. You can die from a rapid dose, but not because the dose was too much, but because it was injected too fast and you stopped breathing, and no one was there to help you breathe. But in that case you would not find "lethal amounts". They specifically said, as far as I can recall, that large, "lethal" amounts of Propofol were found. But if you can find the quote you are referring to that said only small amounts were given, then please post it.

 

[Soundmind]

By request from LAPD, she went to L.A after MJ died with the samples

taken from MJ's hotel room, she said.

That was a lie. Etok even contacted that Jehovah witnesses spiritual leader Firpo carr?(forgot his name) who was close to MJ ( or pretended he was ,don't know at least he was very close to Katherine) and asked him to support her publicly by saying MJ talked about her with him privately.
Firpo released a statement to the contrary, he exposed her .

Where did you read that only a very small amount, nothing exceeding 200mg, was given? Can you post that from the coroner's report or somewhere else?

SUMMER, FINALLY

from his urine concentration which was 0.10ug/ml with 500ml urine in his bladder , he received definitely nothing exceeding 200 mg of propofol that night if not even less , but definitley nothing more than 200mg. That's a medical fact by the way.

Because I don't recall hearing that. I only recall the coroner saying Michael died from a "lethal dose" of Propofol.

No, I posted what the coroner said at the previous page. The word "lethal" was used by the investigator who was giving a sworn statment to obtain a search warrant.the word "lethal" was not used by the coroner. RE READ CAREFULLY the expert opinion.

200mg would not be lethal, or most patients in the OR would already be dead in the beginning of surgery. You can die from a rapid dose, but not because the dose was too much, but because it was injected too fast and you stopped breathing, and no one was there to help you breathe. But in that case you would not find "lethal amounts". They specifically said, as far as I can recall, that large, "lethal" amounts of Propofol were found. But if you can find the quote you are referring to that said only small amounts were given, then please post it.

re read carefully, I said MJ died of a RAPID bolus injection. Again the word "lethal" was never ever used by the coroner.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

i have the same theory regarding murray using benzos to keep mj sedated over the night, and use propofol only for "show effect" to induce sleep. i was posting this here last year when we discussed the autopsy report.

i also wonder whether murray always gave a second propofol bolus when mj was waking up, and he messed it up on june 25 because he was distracted by his gf and gave the bolus too fast. this would also explain why he had a propofol bolus ready at hand when he realized mj was coughing and waking up.

my theory is: when mj showed first signs of waking up murray injected a propofol bolus, quickly followed by a flumazenil injection to counter the benzo effect. i believe he had to do this because propofol has a specific "wake-up feel" which to my knowledge is very different to waking up from lorazepam. i dont think murray could have fooled mj unless he gave him a propofol shot at wake-up time and made sure the benzo-effect wore off quickly.

i actually do not believe that mj had already developed a dependency on lorazepam, if/when/which withdrawal symptoms show is individually different. but going by ortegas testimony it seems first signs something was wrong were showing the week before mj died.

i'm not sure whether murray had intended for mj to develop a dependency, i rather believe he just didn't care and thought he could somehow handle the situation. to murray it was much more important to secure his contract with aeg, and to use benzos and a few propofol bolus shots for "show effect" was (in his opinion) a smart way to give mj the feeling no drugs who can cause dependency were administered, but the same time there was no need for him to have the kind of equipment and training needed to administer propofol: an iv stand, oxygen tanks, an ambu bag, a pulse oxinometer.. all these things were in the room, how was mj to know a propofol infusion is always given by using an iv pump, that an ambu bag is not the same thing as intubation equipment? this would explain his incredible recklessness not to have intubation equipment in the room when sedating a patient with propofol. murray obviously felt the small amounts of propofol he'd actually inject wouldn't cause any problems... well, he was wrong.

to reduce withdrawal symptoms i believe murray gave mj diazepam which has a long half life. diazepam was found in the body. read here about diazepam to wean patients of lorazepam:

http://www.non-benzodiazepines.org.uk/lorazepam.html

i have read that flumazenil could be helpful too to keep withdrawal symptoms in check. read here:



another thing i believe murray gave to subdue the effect of the benzos is ephedrine. ephedrine was found in the urine and eca stack pills were found in the hidden bag. i wondered why no aspirin was found in urine, half lifes of ephedrine and aspirin are not so different to my knowledge. but i think i've figured it out:
they found orange juice at mj's bedside, mj was probably drinking juice before he went to bed. orange juice leads to urine alkalinization which means aspirin (salicylate) is eliminated faster, while at the same time ephedrine takes longer to leave:






can someone with medical knowledge comment if this theory makes sense? thanks

what u say makes alot of sense. we already know that murray seems to have a different theory/excuse for everything and as we know he will prob claim he was only giving mj a tiny bit of diprivan cause mj was mentally addicted to it blah blah and thats the reason why there was no monitoring etc

flumiz wasnt found in mj correct? but ut was found in the tubing etc. so he injected it after it was to late?

 

[sophie]

flumiz wasnt found in mj correct? but ut was found in the tubing etc. so he injected it after it was to late?

yes, it was found in the tubing. he wanted to administer it, but it was tool late, as you say.

 

[bouee]

Where did you read that only a very small amount, nothing exceeding 200mg, was given? Can you post that from the coroner's report or somewhere else? Because I don't recall hearing that. I only recall the coroner saying Michael died from a "lethal dose" of Propofol. 200mg would not be lethal, or most patients in the OR would already be dead in the beginning of surgery. You can die from a rapid dose, but not because the dose was too much, but because it was injected too fast and you stopped breathing, and no one was there to help you breathe. But in that case you would not find "lethal amounts". They specifically said, as far as I can recall, that large, "lethal" amounts of Propofol were found. But if you can find the quote you are referring to that said only small amounts were given, then please post it.

the coroner did not say how much was given.
He said what was found. The amount given here (less than 200mg) is a deduction from what was found, and where (blood/urine).

The coroner never said the amounts of propofol found were lethal. I think the police wrote that, I think I read that in one of the affidavits.
The anestheliogist report (in the coroner's report) said that the amount of propofol found was similar to general anesthesia.

 

[Soundmind]

sophie thank you very much, that's what I though, great finding on flumazenil. It perfectly explain the many vials of flumazinel found there . Why would you buy all these vials if you were not using benzos all the time.

Thank you sophie, I remember these conversations back when the autopsy released. Me too don't believe MJ became addicted to the benzos, but their effect started to appear on him definitely.

 

[bouee]

re the theory Murray gave benzos and little propofol :

It will show in the hair tox results ??

Can Chernoff use this to twist it to "MJ was an addict" ?

Are there tox screen that can show how the medication was given, in which order ?

 

[sophie]

It perfectly explain the many vials of flumazinel found there . Why would you buy all these vials if you were not using benzos all the time.

yes, that was one of the strange things which gave me the idea lorazepam could be the "smoking gun". what i still don't get are the "--" in the tox report regarding lorazepam. didn't they include these results or didn't they test? i can't believe they wouldn't test, that would be negligent, especially since lorazepam was the only drug murray initially admitted he had administrated.

 

[Autumn II]

re the theory Murray gave benzos and little propofol :

It will show in the hair tox results ??

If they tested for that, maybe. Not sure if the propofol would show up accurately in hair-samples, because it leaves the body so quckly.

Can Chernoff use this to twist it to "MJ was an addict" ?

He could try. And THAT is what concerns me about this line of thinking. Michael has been trashed ENOUGH!

Are there tox screen that can show how the medication was given, in which order ?

Probably not. The tox-screens would show levels in the body, but not the order in which they were given, nor the means they were given (injection; bolus; drip, orally). The order of medications could be speculated about by the amounts shown, but would not be not definitive.

 

[Soundmind]

to reduce withdrawal symptoms i believe murray gave mj diazepam which has a long half life. diazepam was found in the body. read here about diazepam to wean patients of lorazepam:

makes sense perfectly PERFECTLY.

 

[xthunderx2]

yes, that was one of the strange things which gave me the idea lorazepam could be the "smoking gun". what i still don't get are the "--" in the tox report regarding lorazepam. didn't they include these results or didn't they test? i can't believe they wouldn't test, that would be negligent, especially since lorazepam was the only drug murray initially admitted he had administrated.

also another poster on her Jusththefacts said way back when that lorazepam and the propofol mixed was also the smoking gun....BUT she NEVER said that Michael was an addict..or tried to prove the addict theory as far as Murray was concerned....but if some people want to go down that road then that is them....Soundmind you have been trying awfully hard to prove your Michael was an addict theory for Murray's defense...it that is his defense so be it....BUT we all know that Michael WAS NOT an addict!!

 

[bouee]

I
Probably not. The tox-screens would show levels in the body, but not the order in which they were given, nor the means they were given (injection; bolus; drip, orally). The order of medications could be speculated about by the amounts shown, but would not be not definitive.

Sorry I meant results from the hair samples : since hair grow, I was wondering if that could give some kind of order ?

 

[Autumn II]

also another poster on her Jusththefacts said way back when that lorazepam and the propofol mixed was also the smoking gun....BUT she NEVER said that Michael was an addict..or tried to prove the addict theory as far as Murray was concerned....but if some people want to go down that road then that is them....Soundmind you have been trying awfully hard to prove your Michael was an addict theory for Murray's defense...it that is his defense so be it....BUT we all know that Michael WAS NOT an addict!!

Yes, that is what concerns me about that line of thinking. It's a variant on the "Michael was an addict" fable. Except that in this case, "He was an addict but didn't KNOW it?" We already know that the "addict" story is one, although weak, line of Murray's defense. This is another, just even weaker.

There are a lot of other things to discuss, so I suggest we DO that?

 

[Soundmind]

yes, that was one of the strange things which gave me the idea lorazepam could be the "smoking gun". what i still don't get are the "--" in the tox report regarding lorazepam. didn't they include these results or didn't they test? i can't believe they wouldn't test, that would be negligent, especially since lorazepam was the only drug murray initially admitted he had administrated.

True, they are playing with the defense, those ---- were not for the public, they were for the defence to see.

Alpazelam, diazepam,clonazepam,oxazepam,temazepam,alprazolam,zaleplon were all benzos and tested for. Do you think they did not bother with the "smoking gun " drug Lorazepam?
No, the more I read, the more I'm convinced the DA will never ever offer Murray a plea bargain, this case will be a lesson must be taught in law schools .

The DA will never portray MJ as a drug addict, the DA will say MJ was full of life and energy and Murray wanted him to be addicted to something to enable him.
The DA will portray Murray as the MONSTER HE IS.

Now I'm convinced more than ever the DA will fight these "psychologically drug addict begging for propofol" BS coming from the defence.

 

[Autumn II]

The DA will never portray MJ as a drug addict, the DA will say MJ was full of life and energy and Murray wanted him to be addicted to something to enable him.
.

Of COURSE the DA will not play on that. But the defense WILL play on exactly that. . . . . .

 

[bouee]

True, they are playing with the defense, those ---- were not for the public, they were for the defence to see.

.

Is that legal ???? I'm not sure what you mean : this part was edited out on the public release, but the defense has an unedited report with the loz. results ?

 

[sophie]

also another poster on her Jusththefacts said way back when that lorazepam and the propofol mixed was also the smoking gun....BUT she NEVER said that Michael was an addict..or tried to prove the addict theory as far as Murray was concerned....but if some people want to go down that road then that is them....Soundmind you have been trying awfully hard to prove your Michael was an addict theory for Murray's defense...it that is his defense so be it....BUT we all know that Michael WAS NOT an addict!!

i do not believe mj was an addict, not at all. actually what i'm saying is that mj did not want to take any drugs which can develop a dependency, that's the reason why he would rather use a substance like propofol which doesn't make patients dependent on them. you can stop taking propofol any time without suffering withdrawal symptoms, and you do not have to increase dosage. while lorazepam in some patients can build dependence very fast. it's very obvious to me that mj would not have wanted to take lorazepam for a longer period of time.

 

[xthunderx2]

i do not believe mj was an addict, not at all. actually what i'm saying is that mj did not want to take any drugs which can develop a dependency, that's the reason why he would rather use a substance like propofol which doesn't make patients dependent on them. you can stop taking propofol any time without suffering withdrawal symptoms, and you do not have to increase dosage. while lorazepam in some patients can build dependence very fast. it's very obvious to me that mj would not have wanted to take lorazepam for a longer period of time.

yes you are correct..

 

[bouee]

It reminds me of conversations here last year when the coroner's report was released :

some posters were surprised at what Murray prescribed in dec 08 (very strong and addictive) , compared to what Metzger prescribed in april 09 (much lighter, less addictive), when both were treating the same problem.

Also, propofol is not like real sleep, right ? So it's not possible that Michael would spend entires nights on propofol for several days, he needed "real sleep" ?

 

[Tipareth]

Given that Murray has lied SO much, and omitted so much (i.e. not telling EMTs or hospital personnel that he had given propofol, and other lies), I'd take ANYTHING he says with less than a grain of salt. Including whatever statements he might have made about how many nights he actually gave Michael propofol. . . .

YES :agree:

Maybe he tricked Mike that he didn't gave Propofol at all.


For me, to believe the 'Mike asked for Propofol' thing, I need more solid proof.

For now all we have is wacky Klein saying that Mike asked for it and he said no ( what a hero he is :smilerolleyes: ), some doctor from History tour supposedly admitting he might gave anesthesia to Mike in some kind of trial ( I want to read the testimony ), that strange Lee nurse coming outta blue and mentioning it for the first time. Also those bottles found at Mike place - but that doesn't mean Mike asked for it, that only means someone put them there! Also the amount found in Mike body - again someone injected it and that can be done without consent.

So should I believe all these 'reliable sources'?? No matter the outcome of this trial will be - I cannot be sure until solid proof is shown that Mike really ASKED for Propofol. As in real asked and begged for it. ( also I would want to see how Mike dealt with it for how many years? and during trial? )

Till then I highly doubt. I think this might be a constructed story.

 

[sophie]

True, they are playing with the defense, those ---- were not for the public, they were for the defence to see.

Alpazelam, diazepam,clonazepam,oxazepam,temazepam,alprazolam,zaleplon were all benzos and tested for. Do you think they did not bother with the "smoking gun " drug Lorazepam?
No, the more I read, the more I'm convinced the DA will never ever offer Murray a plea bargain, this case will be a lesson must be taught in law schools .

The DA will never portray MJ as a drug addict, the DA will say MJ was full of life and energy and Murray wanted him to be addicted to something to enable him.
The DA will portray Murray as the MONSTER HE IS.

Now I'm convinced more than ever the DA will fight these "psychologically drug addict begging for propofol" BS coming from the defence.

about the part in bold: yes, this could very well be true lol.

i hope you are right that the prosecution has enough evidence to prove their case. what do you think why didn't the go for murder 2? to me this seems a clear murder 2 case, or am i missing something? the prosecution going for lesser charges and not even add charges that murray was hiding evidence makes me wonder how strong they feel about their case.

 

[Ingelief]

im sorry but i dont get it the urine sample and then how much was given of propofol.. soundmind how do you come to less than 200 mg?

and if its go away from the body quickly can it be much higher? i also read lethal amount of propofol

summer are you a medical expert? can you explain that you also thought the same we as i did, but soundmind says its less.. i want to know how we came to that?

why would 1000mg be open and be there if he only gave less then 200mg? and that would be a sleep time for just what 30 min? thats so quick

1000mg make more senss right?


Sorry if i dont get it, im not out of not facts i just dont understand it why its present as facts

 

[Tipareth]

Why did he create that story? He knew the prosecution would discover he was only INDUCEING sleep using propofol , not out of concern , not because he cared about MJ like he claims but because maintaining sleep needed his attention, needed training, needed equipments , and Murray was not prepared to shift his attention from his mistresses to Jackson all night, did not bring equipment because he had no intention to give propofol, all he cared about was the money he was charging Jackson for , he was doing nothing but injecting highly addictive sedatives Jackson was against.

If so, why Mike couldn't remember that supposedly during History tour he was put under but with monitoring equipment around?

Being under anesthesia so many times, then using Propofol in the past.... still not remember anything this time? Letting Murray having his way like this?

That's why I still think that's something about this whole Propofol story.... That's why I do have doubts about Mike asking and begging so much for it in the first place...

 

[Tipareth]

Thanks. It was enlightening. Sad to here there's no really cure for chronic insomnia.

For extremely severe insomnia. those are exception cases... Not for all.

Also there are many types of insomnia - simple as in caused by jet leg, insomnia caused by various diseases, age...stress, insomnia that occurs after intellectual struggles, efforts, caused by restless legs syndrome...more complex insomnia as in waking up early, insomnia as in sleeping late or not getting asleep at all, insomnia that is a sign of mental disease, etc It's not simple at all.

Mike suffered from the insomnia of not getting asleep, or getting asleep late worsened by effort
( physical, intellectual/imagination ) worsened up by various pains and high stress. So it was a complicate one. Getting only drugs is not solving this. Also psychotherapy alone, again is useless. He needed a combination of factors psychotherapy, proper medication, and good tricks, in order to make it less worse and for some periods even disappear.