Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[Soundmind]

Hi everybody,

Soundmind or Elusive , I'm sorry to so thick, I'm still a bit confused about why you think self injection is clearly impossible.

My understanding was :
The tube in his leg connected to the syringe was too short, so difficult to reach + propofol would have knocked him out too fast for MJ to inject himself with the dose that was found.

Is this correct ??

I was confused by Soundmind post saying that with a 10cc syringe, it showed that the dose in itself was not lethal (that's what the coroners report says) , what was lethal was it was injected too fast.

thanks

Could the decedent have given propofol to him? It is unknown where the propofol physically came from. It would have been difficult for the patient to administer the drugs (others besides propofol were administered) to himself, given the configuration of the IV set-up. The IV catheter was in the left leg. The injection port of the IV tubing was 13.5 cm from the tip in the catheter. He would have had to bend his knee sharply or sit up to reach the injection port and push the syringe barrel, an awkward situation, especially if sleep was the goal. If only bolus injections via a syringe were used, sleep would not have been maintained, due to the short action of propofol. Someone with medical knowledge or experience would have started the IV. Anyone could have drawn up and administered the medications after the IV was started.

That's the expert opinion, all the medications were difficult to administer not only propofol. Bolus injections MJ would not have been able to do it, IV drip anyone including Mike.

That's why for months we were saying the coroner ruled out any possibility of propofol being given as an IV drip inorder for them to say it was a homicide.

as for the 10cc syringe, the toxicology report was published, propofol concentrations in the urine were known. Very small amount given, nothing exceeding 200 mg , probably a 10cc syringe in the hours preceding death.
If that was the pattern then MJ's death was caused by another injection with a similar 10cc syringe , documented evidence of other cases where death occurred due to normal but rapid dose.
The coroner never said it was an overdose, the coroner said it was similar to concentrations under general anaesthesia which was very true. Blood concentrations under general anesthesia are between 2.4 - 8 ug/ml. MJ's was 4.1 ug/ml. If it was given via a bolus injection , it means he died within one minute.

 

[ivy]

What would happen if Murray tried to plea bargain, and the judge or the DA refuses ? Would that be considered as an admission of guilt ?

Good question. Maybe Ivy can answer when she comes online?

If he attempts a plea, the DA has the right to refuse it. A plea-bargain is usually for a lower sentence/penalty, especially if a case seems to be a lost-cause. A plea is most usually given for testimony implicating someone ELSE in a crime, as well as the person pleading-out. (i.e. throwing someone else under the bus) That doesn't seem likely in this case. No one else has been accused. Unless there is some sort of wild-card? (not likely)

The DA has political ambition, so going to trial would give him a lot of PR. It's unlikely that he would LOSE. So in that sense, he might not be inclined to accept a plea? But on the other hand, accepting a plea would save a lot of tax-payer money from the expense of a drawn-out trial.

I very much hope there is NO plea, because if there is, this brief prelim testimony might be all we'll ever get in terms of what really happened, with testimony under oath? So far, it seems much WORSE than what we anticipated?

1. Autumn is right a plea bargain cannot happen without DA agreeing to it. So even Murray wanted a plea bargain , it doesn't mean he'll get one.

And also a plea bargain is when you "plead guilty" to a lesser charge.

2. Now to your question - even though you seek a plea deal does it really mean you are guilty? Is it admission of guilt?

No.

Let's think of a scenario : let's assume that someone is wrongly accused of murder. if he is found innocent he'll spend 0 time at prison, if he's find guilty he'll spend 25+ years. and the case is 50-50 and go either way. furthermore assume that there's a plea deal of a lesser charge with 6 years prison time. Even though that person is wrongly accused he can take the deal to not go to prison for 25+ years. It's more like a risk- benefit analysis then actual evidence of guilt.

Now when you accept a plea bargain and plead guilty to a lesser charge in the eyes of the law it's admission of guilt. (but as above example it might not be the actual truth)

and a note : I really do not expect Murray look for a plea bargain because most probably pleading guilty to some charges would put his medical licence in jeopardy.

 

[Autumn II]

And I think so many people -MJ fans, but not only - want to know what happened, that a public trial is necessary. All the information they have needs to be made public, IMO.
A plea bargain would only create more rumors, about MJ , but also about the DA, LAPD, etc...

Well, I'm sure that we all, here, want a trial so that people will have to testify under oath, and so that more of the truth can come out. I sincerely hope there will be NO plea-bargain. Chernoff hasn't revealed much, so we'll see that tactic they take in a defense?

I am French, and here the plea bargain is new, and only for small offences. For us, it is extremely strange to "negociate" a verdict and sentence. The verdict or a sentence would be only up to a judge or, for major crimes, to a jury.
The prosecution or the defense would never be allowed to negociate : facts are facts, if you did something wrong, then it's not up to you to participate in your own verdict or sentencing.
I'm not saying that the French system is better than the US system, it's just different, and this can be a bit confusing for us.

I see what you mean, about the French system. I don't know that much about it, actually. Here, a plea-bargain is sometimes used when more than one person committed a crime, and the DA wants to be more sure of convictions. An example would be, what if three people rob a store, but only one is caught? That one could be offered a lighter sentence if he would confess and then name the other perpetrators. That is not the case with Murray, though. He is the only one accused, and the last doctor left standing. If his defense is to be "someone else was in the room," that has not been really floated as a possibility?

Also, trials can be expensive to tax-payers, and especially high-profile trials. If a conviction seems very likely, sometimes there will be a plea-bargain where the accused confesses, with a promise of a somewhat lighter sentence.

In this high-profile case, I actually think it WILL go to trial.

 

[bouee]

Thank you Ivy & Soundmind, it is clearer now.

Though, Soundmind, about the theory that Murray gave benzos and little propofol, I'm not sure it will be brought up since it is not killed MJ.

 

[Ingelief]

is 200 mg a lethal dose then soundmind?

about the benzos those would give him at day some sort of lostness right? i mean lorazepam is a strong sedative right? used also by the wrong people for the wrong things..

whatever he was giving he must have felt it during the day.. why could he perform on the 23 and the 24? and good also? something changed maybe after the meeting in his meds?

 

[bouee]

I see what you mean, about the French system. I don't know that much about it, actually. Here, a plea-bargain is sometimes used when more than one person committed a crime, and the DA wants to be more sure of convictions. An example would be, what if three people rob a store, but only one is caught? That one could be offered a lighter sentence if he would confess and then name the other perpetrators.

Wow, get a reduced sentence to help the police do their job ??? You just started a 5 months heated debate on national French TV , maybe you'll be able to learn a few rude words, because they are not censored here !!!

And talk about a settlement in a civil case, and your TV might blow up (hypocrisy though, I'm sure it does happen sometimes, but it'never official)

Different way of seeing things, I guess, and no system is perfect. The American system sounds more pragmatic and effective sometimes though.

Sorry , that was off topic

 

[bouee]

is 200 mg a lethal dose then soundmind?

200 mg of propofol ?? There was no lethal dose at all , it's all about the way it was given (no monitoring, no ressucitation equipment)

 

[Autumn II]

Wow, get a reduced sentence to help the police do their job ??? You just started a 5 months heated debate on national French TV , maybe you'll be able to learn a few rude words, because they are not censored here !!!

And talk about a settlement in a civil case, and your TV might blow up (hypocrisy though, I'm sure it does happen sometimes, but it'never official)

Different way of seeing things, I guess, and no system is perfect. The American system sounds more pragmatic and effective sometimes though.

Sorry , that was off topic

I actually lived in France for a bit, and I KNOW some of those "rude words." :wild: (I've forgotten most of my French now, though. Except for the rude words! Inside joke, but the French find American headlines hilarious, when we write about the "Pros and Cons" of a court case. Or, when we say we have a "pet?" Which is a small animal, in English! Sorry. My bad?)

Sorry. O.T. Moving right along.

 

[Ingelief]

hmm i dont find the american system that good though bouee.. we in europe dont have a deathpenalty.. and not that many are convicted inocent and there rights for criminals and american prisons are more without rules and not human conditions

thats why europe does not want the wikiguy deliverd to usa

but thats also off topic

 

[Soundmind]

Thank you Ivy & Sound Mind, it is clearer now.

Though, Sound Mind, about the theory that Murray gave benzos and little propofol, I'm not sure it will be brought up since it is not killed MJ

.

I believe the prosecution needs a theory to counter that "Murray did not know what he was getting himself into when he accepted the job , the BS psychological addict to propofol, demanding and begging...etc". The defence will bring up Adams, Lee...etc. I believe the prosecution are more prepared than we have ever thought. Never imagined they have a witness to confirm Murray was at the scene when MJ died, the evidence always indicated Murray was there when MJ was dying, not away in different room, but could not figure how they will prove that .

is 200 mg a lethal dose then sound mind?

Of course, but the dose that killed MJ was less than 100mg . The UCLA doctor testified she would have started with 60mg to induce sleep with someone of MJ's size.Even that would cause trouble if given rapidly. The syringe plunger was completely depressed, so Murray gave almost a 100mg=10ml=10cc if given rapidly it could be lethal.

about the benzos those would give him at day some sort of lostness right? i mean lorazepam is a strong sedative right? used also by the wrong people for the wrong things..

yeh, very strong if given intravenously , lorazepam is also given to induce general anaesthesia . People are talking about pills they took and their experience with it, here we are talking about benzos given intravenously , its effect would be much stronger.
That might also explain the many flumazenil vials found with Murray.Flumazenil is used to counter the benzos effect.

whatever he was giving he must have felt it during the day.. why could he perform on the 23 and the 24? and good also? something changed maybe after the meeting in his meds?

yes , that's my opinion, something changed after MJ called Lee, after the meeting with AEG bosses. Murray was aware MJ started to have serious suspicious over his treatment along with other people. That's why it is vital to know whether they tested for lorazepam in his liver and urine.

Did he receive lorazepam on the days he looked fabulous,the Michael Jackson everyone knew ? HIGHLT DOUBT IT

 

[bouee]

hmm i dont find the american system that good though bouee.. we in europe dont have a deathpenalty.. and not that many are convicted inocent and there rights for criminals and american prisons are more without rules and not human conditions

thats why europe does not want the wikiguy deliverd to usa

but thats also off topic

really off topic then ! I really can't say one system is better than the other. Some things in the US that sound strange to us are actually more effective and fair, IMO, and some things it's just the other way round.

 

[marebear]

Murray is a liar. He lies to everyone and I do believe he did lie to Michael about things.These kind of people are only out for themselves.

 

[bouee]

.

I believe the prosecution are more prepared than we have ever thought. Never imagined they have a witness to confirm Murray was at the scene when MJ died, the evidence always indicated Murray was there when MJ was dying, not away in different room, but could not figure how they will prove that .

that's really encouraging. I definetely hope you're right.

 

[Milka]

Ok, this is a bit off topic ... I saw 2 or 3 "documentaries" about Michael's death probably about a year ago. And there was one, I couldn't remember which one anymore, that was full of BS. So I tried to find those docus again a few days ago and yesterday I found the one that's called "Inside Story", I think. That's the one.

I only watched the first 25 - 30 minutes, because at that point I saw what I was looking for - a list of meds that they said was what he was taking every day. They mentioned Ritalin and Prozac and I never saw that mentioned anywhere else. And a couple more that I had never seen anywhere else either. Not one of the meds they mentioned was in the autopsy report. They had Xanax in their list as well - never seen that anywhere else either, and the dose according to them was 250 mg/day. And that's impossible. That would probably be an overdose. 4 mg/day is considered a lot. And as far as I know there are 0.5 mg, 1 mg, 2 mg pills. With 2 mg pills that would mean one has to take 125 pills. You have to get sick somewhere in the middle of that. I don't know when this docu was aired for the first time, was it before or after the autopsy report was released? And what the hell is wrong with the media?

Oh yeah, and I'm not good at this, because I never followed any of that, I don't know how most of those people in this docu fit into the picture, there is this Etok girl saying that she - and Joe Jackson - tried to help Michael by speaking to media outlets. WTF? That's HELP?

 

[Ingelief]

huh i thought the autopsy said lethal dose propofol?

what was in his body? which amount?

 

[Ingelief]

and if the doctor said for sleep i start with 60 that doesnt mean she would use 150 (for example) as a surgery?

 

[Soundmind]

Etok, never met MJ, never saw MJ, never had any connection to MJ. She is an attention seeking whore . She till this very minute has not released ANY EVIDENCE to prove she even met him not even a PIC .

She insists she has MANY MANY pics with him that would prove she knew him but out of respect , because "his privacy meant too much to him" she would not . IS THAT A FREAKING JOKE ? going everywhere saying he was asking you for propofol and painkillers is respecting his privacy ?

Later she said , the company which owns the right to his image would sue her if she released any photos with him. THAT MUST BE A FREAKING JOKE TOO !!!!!

I can't believe any person with a head over his/her shoulder believes any word that woman says.

huh i thought the autopsy said lethal dose propofol?

what was in his body? which amount?

The expert's opinion from the coroner's report :

What is an anaesthesiologist’s view point on the toxicology screen results? The levels of propofol found on toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anaesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions after a bolus induction. During major surgery, a patient with these blood levels of propofol would be intubated and ventilated by an anaesthesiologist. And any cardiovascular depression would be noted and treated.
Anaesthesiologist would also comment on the presence of other sedative drugs in the toxicology screen. Lorazepam, a long-acting benzodiazepine, is present at a pharmacologically significant level and would have accentuated the respiratory and cardiovascular depression from propofol.

Propofol concentration in the blood obtained at the hospital was 4.1ug/ml. Blood concentrations during general anesthesia are between 2.3-8 ug/ml.
blood concentration is not an indication of the amount he was given that day ( expect the last dose) . Urine concentration is how they determine how much he received that day.

and if the doctor said for sleep i start with 60 that doesn't mean she would use 150 (for example) as a surgery?

150 mg would not have been enough for a surgery , that was not the point, she was not saying he had enough AMOUNT of propofol in him to perform a surgery. She said the CONCENTRATION LEVELS were those of someone under general anaesthesia. BIG DIFFERENCE.

the propofol concentration in blood obtained from a patient who is in a comma for months and has been receiving propofol for MONTHS would be similar to the propofol concentration of someone who has just received 100mg of propofol injection. ( cumulative effect does not exceed 1ug/ml due to propofol rapid metabolizing ) .
The concentration levels not the amount , clear ?
60 (=,-) mg as bolus injection for induction of sleep, everything above that is usually given using an IV drip (infusion) to maintain sedation. That what she meant by "The levels of propofol found on toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anaesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions after a bolus induction." .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

etok also claimed mj asked her to have his baby aswell !

re the diprivan bottle in the iv bag. which ever way u look at it its a very strange thing. there has to be a reason as to why it was put there. and using the bag as basically a bin to put rubbish in tbh doesnt really fit.there was crap all over the floor and the room.and why was murray so desperate for alberto to hide it yet he left other bottles of diprivan in sight. although we know he didnt have time to clear the room as he was still trying when the ambulance was ready to leave.at the end of the day nothing would surprise me interms of what murray could do.the problem is the more we discuss the more theories we create and it just gets more confusing and frustrating as we may never know what really happend

one legal question i have for ivy or anyone else. ive been wondering if theres a chance at the end that the judge could add xtra charges. at the end meaning the trial.. look what melvile did in 05 he added on the facilitating abuse with alcohol charge. didnt that come right at the end of the trial? although im sure melvile added that as a charge for if the jury didnt think mj abused but thought he may have given the alcohol.although the reading of the charge doesnt go with that.ie giving drink to make it easier to abuse.. could the judge do the same with obstruction of justice and also more of a concern which kinda fits with what melvile did in 05. is there a lesser charge than MS. interms of lets say the jury arent 100% murray injected mj causing the death. but still believe he was negligent in having no equipement not calling 911 etc and want to find him guilty of some charge related to that. is there a charge that covers just that? and if there is u could find the judge giving the jury that option ontop of MS which is a middle ground of theres jurrors who dont agree with the MS charge

 

[myosotis]

re the diprivan bottle in the iv bag. which ever way u look at it its a very strange thing. there has to be a reason as to why it was put there. and using the bag as basically a bin to put rubbish in tbh doesnt really fit.there was crap all over the floor and the room.and why was murray so desperate for alberto to hide it yet he left other bottles of diprivan in sight. although we know he didnt have time to clear the room as he was still trying when the ambulance was ready to leave.at the end of the day nothing would surprise me interms of what murray could do.

Maybe this was the bottle from which the dose / overdose came that killed Michael. Sounds like a guilty man concentrating on covering up the evidence of his guilt. (no matter how ineffectually)...maybe a kind of psychological thing..to get that bottle out of direct sight.

PS Agree they should try to add extra charges..there must be plenty to choose from....

 

[Autumn II]

one legal question i have for ivy or anyone else. ive been wondering if theres a chance at the end that the judge could add xtra charges. at the end meaning the trial.. look what melvile did in 05 he added on the facilitating abuse with alcohol charge. didnt that come right at the end of the trial? although im sure melvile added that as a charge for if the jury didnt think mj abused but thought he may have given the alcohol.although the reading of the charge doesnt go with that.ie giving drink to make it easier to abuse.. could the judge do the same with obstruction of justice and also more of a concern which kinda fits with what melvile did in 05. is there a lesser charge than MS. interms of lets say the jury arent 100% murray injected mj causing the death. but still believe he was negligent in having no equipement not calling 911 etc and want to find him guilty of some charge related to that. is there a charge that covers just that? and if there is u could find the judge giving the jury that option ontop of MS which is a middle ground of theres jurrors who dont agree with the MS charge

Good question. Yes, charges CAN be added, but the question is the timing. With Michael, the extra charges were added well in advance of the trial, weren't they? (In his case, there was a grand-jury, but not a prelim.)

So that is the question? Do new charges have to be added BEFORE the prelim is over? What about upping the charges? Does that have to happen before the prelim is over, or is there some leeway on that?

This question is IMPORTANT, because as of now we are taking down the petition very early tomorrow morning (Monday), so that there's time to get it to the DA before the prelim ends. The petition now is approaching six-thousand signatures. I'm sure we'd have MANY more, if we could leave it up longer.

So, does the chance to up the charges and stack the charges END, when the prelim does? Ivy? Anyone?

 

[Soundmind]

Maybe this was the bottle from which the dose / overdose came that killed Michael. Sounds like a guilty man concentrating on covering up the evidence of his guilt. (no matter how ineffectually)...maybe a kind of psychological thing..to get that bottle out of direct sight.

Murray wish that was indeed the case, at least then he could prove MJ could have done it .
It was 1000mg propofol vial with a tear in the rubber stopper, that tear was consistent with an inserted spike. The levels of propofol MJ received that night were very small, you don't open a 1000mg propofol vial to administer 100mg especially when you have many many 100mg and 200mg vials , even the expert in the coroner's report pointed that out.

 

[Autumn II]

Here is the logic that should negate the theory that Murray somehow was "secretly" giving Michael benzos. And remember, he'd been supposedly giving Michael propofol (and/or benzos?) for six WEEKS!

Benzo medications are quite addictive. Prescriptions usually have strict limits. Daily use, for even a week, can cause some physical addiction. Even longer, the addiction would be more entrenched.

Michael seemed in GOOD shape those last few days, enough to get the footage for TII. It has been suggested that Murray somehow did not give him the benzos on those days (or nights before).

The logic? One canNOT stop taking benzos abruptly if physical addition has occurred, without severe side-effects, i.e. withdrawal symptoms. Those side-effects go on for three or four days quite roughly, and can continue for a lot longer.

If Michael had been given benzos, secretly (as the theory goes), or not secretly, he would have been in severe withdrawal if they'd been stopped, i.e. the last TII rehearsals. And he was NOT in that kind of distress, obviously, or he couldn't have functioned. So, that theory isn't about "tubing and boluses, secrecy" and all the rest of it. The substituting of the benzos for propofol just never HAPPENED. And Michael was NOT addicted (and propofol is not physically addictive.)

See side effects of stopping benzos abruptly if a dependency has occurred. (valium is a "benzo." And there is much more that can be found through Google searches.)

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Valium
Valium should never be stopped abruptly after long term use. Withdrawal symptoms, similar in signs and symptoms to those observed with barbiturates and alcohol such as:

• Insomnia
• Diaphoresis
• Tachycardia
• Hypertension
• Convulsions
• Psychosis
• Tremors
• Cramps
• Vomiting
• Hyper-anxiety

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Good question. Yes, charges CAN be added, but the question is the timing. With Michael, the extra charges were added well in advance of the trial, weren't they?

thats the thing, im sure the giving alcohol to facilitate abuse came at the end of the trial.when melvile gave it as another option to the jurros. does anyone remember. becasue if they came at the GJ then it makes what im saying redundant. but it was 10 charges that became 14 at the end cause of the alchohol charge. im sure of it.gving the jury a lesser charge option was what it was called.that my owrry with this case. could at the end the judge give the jury a lesser charge option. ie u didnt kill mj by injecting him but your actions led to his death. ie the delay in claling 911 etc. what sort of sentence would u be looking at then?

but interms of changing the main body of charges b4 a trial i dont think they can. like otehrs say once the case is bound over for trial the trial is the charges u were bound over for.unless theres so huge evidence which would then have the case scrapped and started again

 

[marebear]

Why did Michael have those times where he felt cold on one side and hot on the other side of his body? When was the last time he felt that way?

 

[Ingelief]

Etok, never met MJ, never saw MJ, never had any connection to MJ. She is an attention seeking whore . She till this very minute has not released ANY EVIDENCE to prove she even met him not even a PIC .

She insists she has MANY MANY pics with him that would prove she knew him but out of respect , because "his privacy meant too much to him" she would not . IS THAT A FREAKING JOKE ? going everywhere saying he was asking you for propofol and painkillers is respecting his privacy ?

Later she said , the company which owns the right to his image would sue her if she released any photos with him. THAT MUST BE A FREAKING JOKE TOO !!!!!

I can't believe any person with a head over his/her shoulder believes any word that woman says.


So the concentration level was to high? im sorry can you explain it bit more?




The expert's opinion from the coroner's report :



Propofol concentration in the blood obtained at the hospital was 4.1ug/ml. Blood concentrations during general anesthesia are between 2.3-8 ug/ml.
blood concentration is not an indication of the amount he was given that day ( expect the last dose) . Urine concentration is how they determine how much he received that day.


150 mg would not have been enough for a surgery , that was not the point, she was not saying he had enough AMOUNT of propofol in him to perform a surgery. She said the CONCENTRATION LEVELS were those of someone under general anaesthesia. BIG DIFFERENCE.

the propofol concentration in blood obtained from a patient who is in a comma for months and has been receiving propofol for MONTHS would be similar to the propofol concentration of someone who has just received 100mg of propofol injection. ( cumulative effect does not exceed 1ug/ml due to propofol rapid metabolizing ) .
The concentration levels not the amount , clear ?
60 (=,-) mg as bolus injection for induction of sleep, everything above that is usually given using an IV drip (infusion) to maintain sedation. That what she meant by "The levels of propofol found on toxicology exam are similar to those found during general anaesthesia for major surgery (intra-abdominal) with propofol infusions after a bolus induction." .

So the concentration level was to high? im sorry can you explain it bit more?
Because if you were a patient with a surgery you would be intubated *i get that* but not the not breathing part?

 

[Autumn II]

Why did Michael have those times where he felt cold on one side and hot on the other side of his body? When was the last time he felt that way?

He reported feeling this way on Father's Day, 2009. (would have to look up the date. A Sunday)

Neurological symptoms can be a side-effect of anesthesia.

 

[marebear]

He reported feeling this way on Father's Day, 2009. (would have to look up the date. A Sunday)

Neurological symptoms can be a side-effect of anesthesia.

I see. I think that was June 21. I know this is off topic but didn't the Cascios say Michael called them that day? I don't get if Michael mentioned this to Murray at all and what he told Michael.

 

[rainny]

Etok, never met MJ, never saw MJ, never had any connection to MJ.

By request from LAPD, she went to L.A after MJ died with the samples

taken from MJ's hotel room, she said.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

thats what she claimed and what hotel room from when. why am i even asking lol

 

[rainny]

Why would she go to L.A and pretend to have been interviewed by the police? LOL