Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[Cookie Monzter]

if the paramedics were allowed to pronounce the death still in the house Michael because they did not?
what I was most indignant is that if they had properly done its job this thug had been to as suspect number one
together with other pe...ople who were in the house
these paramedics helped murray to undo a crime scene
and the history of the catheter in the genitals of Michael, was to cleanse the body of the vestiges of propofol

They did not certify the death there because Murray lied and said he felt a pulse and insisted that he wanted to continue resuscitative efforts. UCLA agreed because of this. Murray has more authority than the paramedics being a doctor, he took over the responsibility and care for transportation to the hospital.

 

[Justthefacts]

Let me try something here and someone who knows more then I do please step in and help me and correct me if need be. Them saying Michael did it himself. If Michael's prints are not on any syringes any IV bags or any of that equipment we can all can conclude he did not do it himself. Now lets just say Michael's prints were on a syringe barrel the broken one. If Murray keeps saying he only gave Michael 25 milligrams explain to me how is it that so much got into Michael's body? Well he did it OK so he did it you know what that means. Michael Jackson was super human he was able to inject so much Propofol into himself without passing out. Soundmind can tell you about a person who died from injecting himself with Propofol but he or she injected himself over 11 times before they did. Michael could do a lot of superhuman things on stage but off stage he was all but human which is why we are here. And no expert is going to risk there reputation saying it is possible no way in hell. And about them calling Michael and addict Ivy I may need you to come straighten this out if I goof it up. I believe that you would have to show a judge that his "addictions" somehow played a part in his death. Remember Michael's trail and that 1108 jazz? Sneddon said Michael had a pattern that is how he was able to get it to come in. Never mind the fact that three of the young man said it never happened one of them was punk bitch and ran and hid and one was so bad jury laughed at him. He was able to get in because of the charges Michael faced. And having said all of that Mez was able to show that the family had a history of scams. Michael's defense was I did not do it they are trying to scam me here is proof and here is proof that they have done it before. Now in this case we have a man who battled a addiction almost 20 years and there is no proof that he was an active addict in the last years of his life in fact just the opposite. Hence why people like me were so pissed at his family because now we see it was not a good idea. Lets look at the Ana Nicole trial no one was able to establish that Ana was an addict because despite her crazy behavior despite her out of control ways all of the pills she had she had a reason to have them. Why did Michael have sleep medicine he could not sleep. Why did Michael have muscle relaxers? Well Michael had back pain Michael had arthritis he had a reason to have it. Anti Inflammatory medicine Michael had lupus enough said. The antibiotics. Michael had inflamed lungs which made it easy for him to get bacterial infections he needed them. And the sleep medication I need not say anything about that but this. Most of them came from Murray himself some of them are highly addictive. If they are going to say Michael was an addict what is stopping the DA from asking the jury to consider prescribing to an addict? Because after all that is what Murray did if they want to call Michael an addict. My point in saying this is this if Murray wants to say Michael was an addict at first he is going to have to prove at the time of his death Michael was an addict and he won't be able to do it. Just like Anna Nicole no one could say she was an addict when it was clear as day she was.

 

[Milka]

ok it helpes for me

That's great. People are different, what works for some doesn't for others. Glad that you found something that helps you.

And I forgot to say - what I said about Seroquel is my opinion, if you take it, don't stop taking it, your doctor has a reason for prescribing it to you.

Justthefacts, the "he was a drug addict" defense won't get them anywhere. I think it would be a very stupid move to try and defend Murray with that. Because even if he was, that's all the more reason not to give him this cocktail of benzos AND then Propofol on top of it. Would make things even worse for Murray. He'd be even "more guilty", if that makes sense.

 

[ivy]

If Michael's prints are not on any syringes any IV bags or any of that equipment we can all can conclude he did not do it himself.

true

Now lets just say Michael's prints were on a syringe barrel the broken one.

circumstantial at best. the thing with the fingerprints is that you cannot determine when they happened. even if Michael's prints are on any needle or propofol it might have left there a week before his death or Murray could have him hold them after he was dead. Each side will argue whatever fits to their purpose.

If they are going to say Michael was an addict what is stopping the DA from asking the jury to consider prescribing to an addict? Because after all that is what Murray did if they want to call Michael an addict. My point in saying this is this if Murray wants to say Michael was an addict at first he is going to have to prove at the time of his death Michael was an addict and he won't be able to do it. Just like Anna Nicole no one could say she was an addict when it was clear as day she was.

legal definition of addict is quite different than public usage- legally even if you might be physically or psychologically addicted to some medicine if there's a medically warranted reason you are not considered an addict. That's what happened in Anna Nicole's case and also the jurors asked if it would be correct to conclude Anna Nicole's drugs had no legitimate medical purpose if jurors find the prescriptions were written in excessive amounts. The judge told them the answer was no.

 

[twinklEE]

Ivy, stupid question but are u a lawyer or law student? Sorry to go off topic

 

[Justthefacts]

But if they are going to say Michael was an addict will they have to somehow prove it led to his death?

 

[Soundmind]

Guys I have a theory for why he had a 100ml=1000mg propofol bottle in a saline bag there .
It was there for MJ to see it ONLY. It was there for show purposes, MJ would go to sleep believing Murray was going to give him propofol all night when he was not. He would wake up and see the propofol bag there and believe he was being sedated using propofol.

Murray was not sedating MJ using propofol all these weeks. Murray was sedating MJ using LORAZEPAM. He knew he was not trained to give propofol, but he wanted the job badly, he told MJ I'll give it to you but his plans was to use his lovely HIGHLY ADDICTIVE benzos and ONLY A BOLUS INJECTION here and there of propofol .

No wonder MJ became a mess, how could he perform under lorazepam , God , Murray needs to be punished severely for this crime.

He was fooling MJ, Mj refused to take the benzos as pills because they were addictive, they cause hallucinations , Murray started to give him benzos intravenously. He would hang the 1000mg propofol vial there , take a syringe withdraw propofol from the vial while MJ watching and tell him I'm gonna injected it to induce sleep and then we will maintain sleep using the IV drip BUT THAT WAS IT, once MJ was sedated he would start injecting the benzos . That's why he said he was only giving MJ small amounts daily

 

[Soundmind]

and yes the hair samples will show MJ was taking small doses very small doses for weeks , Murray knew that .

That's why the concentrations of propofol in the urine at the scene and in the bladder were very small relatively.

The hair samples will show increasing benzos dependancy in the last two months of his life. Murray will claim MJ was taking his pills and he only gave him lorazepam the last two days. That man is a criminal beyond words

 

[Justthefacts]

Your hair can only say what you took not if you were getting addicted.

 

[Soundmind]

increasing dependancy I SAID , I know because my mother is addicted to lorazepam and the doses she needs to sleep increases over time. The hair samples would indicate whether the doses were increasing over time.

 

[Soundmind]

I said this on kop and I'll repeat it here, if an expert testifies MJ could not have done it himself , even if there was a tom sneddon as a juror and said I know he medically could not have done it himself but he was an addict and begging for it and I don't want to convict Murray based on that , his ass will be kicked out of the deliberations room immediately by the judge.

 

[Justthefacts]

Lorazepam given to Michael on 4/28/2009 30 pills he had 9 left. He did not even finish them so if they go there good luck

 

[xthunderx2]

Guys I have a theory for why he had a 100ml=1000mg propofol bottle in a saline bag there .
It was there for MJ to see it ONLY. It was there for show purposes, MJ would go to sleep believing Murray was going to give him propofol all night when he was not. He would wake up and see the propofol bag there and believe he was being sedated using propofol.

Murray was not sedating MJ using propofol all these weeks. Murray was sedating MJ using LORAZEPAM. He knew he was not trained to give propofol, but he wanted the job badly, he told MJ I'll give it to you but his plans was to use his lovely HIGHLY ADDICTIVE benzos and ONLY A BOLUS INJECTION here and there of propofol .

No wonder MJ became a mess, how could he perform under lorazepam , God , Murray needs to be punished severely for this crime.

He was fooling MJ, Mj refused to take the benzos as pills because they were addictive, they cause hallucinations , Murray started to give him benzos intravenously. He would hang the 1000mg propofol vial there , take a syringe withdraw propofol from the vial while MJ watching and tell him I'm gonna injected it to induce sleep and then we will maintain sleep using the IV drip BUT THAT WAS IT, once MJ was sedated he would start injecting the benzos . That's why he said he was only giving MJ small amounts daily

that sounds like a plausible theory..but..no..I dont buy it....Murray is a liar..and we a foolish to believe anything he says...and I refuse to give him a defense.

 

[Soundmind]

and you know what, I believe that's why he injected him rapidly , because MJ started to wake up and Murray did not have the time to re attach that 100ml propofol vial instead of the saline bag , he freaked out injected rapidly so MJ would not see the vial un attached and would discover he was not sedated using propofol. That would explaine the tear in the rubber stopper. Once Murray induced sleep using a bolus injection , he dis attached the propofol vial and replaced it with the saline bag, got an old saline bag and put that propofol vial in it , to reattach it again before MJ wake up .

 

[Milka]

No wonder MJ became a mess, how could he perform under lorazepam

Well, no, that's not necessarily a problem. Depends on the dose, on the person, and how "used" your body is to it. Also, if you take them before you go to sleep, depending on the half life, if it's let's say 8 hours, it won't affect you much anymore the next morning or afternoon (I think one of the benzos he was given was Valium, that has a very long half life though, something around 30 hours give or take a couple, I think). And they might not even help you sleep, again depending on the person, the dose, etc.

I took some benzo for a while years ago, it didn't do much for me. And at the same time I heard from people that they were taking the same low dose prescribed by a doctor only once and never again, because they couldn't stand straight anymore and fell asleep soon after taking it, couldn't get out of bed the next day and felt horribly tired all day long. So it really depends on what kind of person he was as far as reaction to benzos goes.

 

[Justthefacts]

that coughing and that mumbled voice she did not recognize as Murray's is going to nail him

 

[Milka]

Once Murray induced sleep using a bolus injection , he dis attached the propofol vial and replaced it with the saline bag, got an old saline bag and put that propofol vial in it , to reattach it again before MJ wake up .

Ok, that doesn't make much sense. That would mean Michael would have been stupid enough to believe that that's how an IV works, just cut it open and put the vial in it. No one can be that stupid. Especially if you have been in hospital as a patient more than once in your life.

 

[Soundmind]

Giving him a defence? are you joking? Do you think this theory makes Murray a saint? It exposes him even further. No wonder he was going after Ortega he was terrified AEG would start to question his methods of treatment. How would not they? If Murray was giving MJ lorazepam to sleep via an IV , believe me AEG HAD EVERY RIGHT TO COMPLAIN , no dancer would be able to perform appropriately under lorazepam especially someone who is not a long user who is not "used" to it.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

legal definition of addict is quite different than public usage- legally even if you might be physically or psychologically addicted to some medicine if there's a medically warranted reason you are not considered an addict. That's what happened in Anna Nicole's case and also the jurors asked if it would be correct to conclude Anna Nicole's drugs had no legitimate medical purpose if jurors find the prescriptions were written in excessive amounts. The judge told them the answer was no.

So what does this mean for Michael? No sarcasm intended. I really want to know. Thanks.




Murray's lawyers are running with the "addict" thing like it's out going out of style. They're talking about it like they know everything. And Murray is probably going to claim he knew it as well because he's hoping the addict talk will get him out of this mess. And even if he doesn't, some will be wondering where his lawyers got that from. But why hasn't he been charged with "enabling" Michael since they want to take this there? Any other doctor would have been up ish creek for something like that and nobody would care about their excuses. We've already heard of massive state and/or federal investigations and "enabler" doctors being hauled into court on charges involving things such as steroids. This to me is no different. Everybody (but MJ fans and the sensible-minded non-fans) wants to make excuses for Murray. But to me, why is there any room for that when there are others just like Murray sitting in jail for doing the exact same things or similar?

 

[Soundmind]

Ok, that doesn't make much sense. That would mean Michael would have been stupid enough to believe that that's how an IV works, just cut it open and put the vial in it. No one can be that stupid. Especially if you have been in hospital as a patient more than once in your life.

OMG , I said there was a TEAR IN THE RUBBER STOPPER, so obviously before MJ went to sleep it was there attached to the long tube via a spike instead of the IV bag , MJ was exposed to propofol before Murray, so he knew inorder to induce sleep you have to receive a BOLUS INJECTION, Murray would inject a bolus injection first then he would maintain sleep using the IV drip , that's how propofol is given and that's how MJ received it before and that's what he thought was going. After the bolus injection MJ would be out , Murray would REPLACE the propofol vial with a saline bag . Before MJ woke up he would stop the iv drip and replace the saline bag with the propofol vial. MJ would woke up , ofcourse he would see the propofol vial hung up there and believed he was awake because the IV drip was stopped by Murray.

read carefully please

 

[Milka]

read carefully please

Ok, the problem was the wording in your other post.

But I really don't think that's what happened, I think it's possible that he didn't give him Propofol for 6 weeks every night or just some nights, it's possible that this was the first time. But that wouldn't make a difference as to the COD.

 

[xthunderx2]

OMG , I said there was a TEAR IN THE RUBBER STOPPER, so obviously before MJ went to sleep it was there attached to the long tube via a spike instead of the IV bag , MJ was exposed to propofol before Murray, so he knew inorder to induce sleep you have to receive a BOLUS INJECTION, Murray would inject a bolus injection first then he would maintain sleep using the IV drip , that's how propofol is given and that's how MJ received it before and that's what he thought was going. After the bolus injection MJ would be out , Murray would REPLACE the propofol vial with a saline bag . Before MJ woke up he would stop the iv drip and replace the saline bag with the propofol vial. MJ would woke up , ofcourse he would see the propofol vial hung up there and believed he was awake because the IV drip was stopped by Murray.

read carefully please

I get what you are trying to say..you are trying to say that he was trying to fake MJ out with the propofol making Michael THINK he was getting propofol the who time...when he was really switiching it to saline after Michael was asleep and making sure that he put the propofol back before Michael woke up,..Yeah?? is that correct? are you saying that he had Michael psychologically addicted to it..

 

[Autumn II]

I get what you are trying to say..you are trying to say that he was trying to fake MJ out with the propofol making Michael THINK he was getting propofol the who time...when he was really switiching it to saline after Michael was asleep and making sure that he put the propofol back before Michael woke up,..Yeah?? is that correct? are you saying that he had Michael psychologically addicted to it..

Yeah, I think that's what being said. I don't find it plausible, though. Michael actually had quite a bit of medical knowledge. (He was a voracious reader and I recall book-store owners being asked what he bought. There were usually some medical books. . .)

This line of thinking goes along with the "Michael demanded propofol" theory, to the extent that Murray had to TRICK him into thinking he was getting it when he was not? As I said, I find it not plausible. Trickery just doesn't sound likely to me. Michael was not. . . stupid.

Carry on. . .

 

[GinnyJackson]

lol michael wasnt a stupid man so lets not try to paint that picture. he knows whats going on.

 

[xthunderx2]

Yeah, I think that's what being said. I don't find it plausible, though. Michael actually had quite a bit of medical knowledge. (He was a voracious reader and I recall book-store owners being asked what he bought. There were usually some medical books. . .)

This line of thinking goes along with the "Michael demanded propofol" theory, to the extent that Murray had to TRICK him into thinking he was getting it when he was not? As I said, I find it not plausible. Trickery just doesn't sound likely to me. Michael was not. . . stupid.

Carry on. . .

yeah thats what I thought was being said..Michael was FAR from stupid...he knew what was going on around him...he was a very smart man. I dont think this theory is correct....I agree Michael had a whole library of books he knew what medications would do what.

 

[Soundmind]

of course he knew , superhuman after all, you need a super human to know what was going on after you are sedated using lorazepam and versed . He sure was aware what Murray was doing when he was unconscious .

If MJ knew everything , he would not have hired Murray to give him propofol for one night without monitoring equipments, remember MJ lost his life because of an injection not even an IV drip. MJ trusted Murray , and Murray was a piece of shit as we all know.

 

[Petrarose]

The pro addiction comment started when Murray said he found that Michael was becoming addicted to it and decided to wean him off with the benzos. He made this stupid statement after Michael's death, and I remember the experts said that all one has to do is simply stop giving the person the pro. Anyone else remember this?

 

[xthunderx2]

of course he knew , superhuman after all, you need a super human to know what was going on after you are sedated using lorazepam and versed . He sure was aware what Murray was doing when he was unconscious .

If MJ knew everything , he would not have hired Murray to give him propofol for one night without monitoring equipments, remember MJ lost his life because of an injection not even an IV drip. MJ trusted Murray , and Murray was a piece of shit as we all know.

I will ignore your post because I find it highly sarcastic and offensive...people are not stupid....Michael WAS NOT stupid..so I think you should take your arrogant attitude somewhere else...this is NOT what this thread it for.

 

[Soundmind]

I delivered an explanation for the IV bag with a propofol vial inside it , and you answered me MJ was too smart to be fooled like that by Murray. what did you expect me to say ?

Did I even mention the word stupid? MJ was unconscious , sedated . When you are sedated, unaware of what's going on around you , being smart not only won't help you, it would not even matter.

 

[CherubimII]

that coughing and that mumbled voice she did not recognize as Murray's is going to nail him

"Methought I heard a voice cry 'Sleep no more!
Macbeth does murder sleep', the innocent sleep,
Sleep that knits up the ravell'd sleeve of care,
The death of each day's life, sore labour's bath,
Balm of hurt minds, great nature's second course,
Chief nourisher in life's feast, "

Macbeth Act 2: Scene 2
by William Shakespeare