Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[Milka]

yes we have Never heard of that being found in the house I think the person who wrote that blog probably made a mistake...I also think that person should be contacted and it should be changed to the right thing...that kind of stuff could be hurtful for Michael if it falls into the wrong hands.

I think some of the info that we have from the last couple of days is actually wrong. Because people missed something maybe or didn't hear things right. Like yesterday, I still don't get the IV bag thing and where exactly that came from ("he cut IV bag open and poured the Propofol into it" - who would even know that, no one saw him do that?).

 

[ivy]

Sorry Ivy but I have to disagree. The Grand Jury in 05 was illegal, neither Mr Mezereau or Michael even knew it was happening let alone attended it.

you are wrong about the above part being "illegal" because

notification isn't a necessary requirement for grand jury hearings (especially if you are classified as "flight risk" , it might jeopardize the investigation etc you'll only get notification if / when you are indicted) and defense cannot attend to grand jury hearing even if they knew it (they can only request transcripts later on). and that's the advantage of it for the prosecutors.

 

[rita.gibson]

you are wrong about the above part being "illegal" because

notification isn't a necessary requirement for grand jury hearings (especially if you are classified as "flight risk" , it might jeopardize the investigation etc you'll only get notification if / when you are indicted) and defense cannot attend to grand jury hearing even if they knew it (they can only request transcripts later on). and that's the advantage of it.

OK Ivy sorry if I'm wrong I'm just repeating what Mr Mezereau said and he said they held an illegal Grand Jury process. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one and move on with the case in hand. :flowers:

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

OK Ivy sorry if I'm wrong I'm just repeating what Mr Mezereau said and he said they held an illegal Grand Jury process. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one and move on with the case in hand. :flowers:

I think it would be fair to attribute the 'illegal' to that particular Grand Jury process since rather illegal things seemed to have happened there.

^^^without pronouncing all Grand Juries as illegal- one could probably call that one illegal due to it's illegal sounding activities.

 

[StacyJ]

well back to this.. this is a legal preliminary hearing and from listening to what Murray did to Michael, I don't understand why this man is still allowed to practice any kind of medicine. If this was anyone else would the doctor be allowed to practice medicine pending a trial?

 

[Soundmind]

If these so called experts ever bothered to read the toxicology report as they claim they would not have made such ridiculous claims, how come that stupid idiot woman call herself an expert after reading the coroner report says MJ could have swallowed propofol himself.

FACT the only reason they found propofol and lidocine in his stomach was the resuscitation attempts.


Anatomical Summary from the coroner's report:
5. Evidence of therapy.
A) Endotracheal tube.
B) Intravascular catheter of left neck, and both femoral regions.
c) Intra-aortic balloon pump, inserted through left femoral artery.
D)Punctures and contusions of right neck, both arms, left calf, and right ankle.
E) Condom catheter.
F) Resusciative abrasion-contusion of central chest.
G) Resuscitative fractures of sternum, right 4th and 5th ribs, and left 3rd through 5th ribs.
H) Resuscitative alveolar hemorrhage of lungs.
I) Resuscitative transmural hemorrhage of stomach .
transmural hemorrhage of stomach : a hemorrhage of the wall of the stomach causes blood circulating the body to abnormally spill into the stomach. In other words propofol and lidocaine were in the blood and when the blood spilled into the stomach due to the resuscitation attempts they found traces of propofol and lidocaine in his stomach

 

[ivy]

well back to this.. this is a legal preliminary hearing and from listening to what Murray did to Michael, I don't understand why this man is still allowed to practice any kind of medicine. If this was anyone else would the doctor be allowed to practice medicine pending a trial?

1. Judge Pastor said that he'll revisit the issue of Murray's medical licence after the preliminary hearing. It means that he can suspend his licence after the preliminary hearing. The issue was when he was asked to suspend his licence , Pastor was just assigned to the case and he couldn't make a decision without hearing evidence (judges cannot make decisions based on media reports).

2. This will be a little disturbing but in most instances (unless they are intentionally killing multiple people) I would say that the doctors will be able to hold on to their licences/practice medicine pending a trial due to the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

 

[StacyJ]

1. Judge Pastor said that he'll revisit the issue of Murray's medical licence after the preliminary hearing. It means that he can suspend his licence after the preliminary hearing. The issue was when he was asked to suspend his licence , Pastor was just assigned to the case and he couldn't make a decision without hearing evidence (judges cannot make decisions based on media reports).

2. This will be a little disturbing but in most instances (unless they are intentionally killing multiple people) I would say that the doctors will be able to hold on to their licences/practice medicine pending a trial due to the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

and you're probably right.. but the fact remains he gave MJ anesthesia at home without monitoring equipment as a sleep aid. That is a fact and he admitted it only after lying to the EMTs and the ER doctor. That is egregious enough in my opinion for Murray to be suspended.

 

[marebear]

I find this hard to talk to people outside of here or other forums. I have one friend at work who I know likes Michael and is mad at Murray but others just don't care. What gets me is how easily people brush off what Murray did because of their thoughts on Michael. About preparing ourselves about what the defense will say about Michael. I always feel like I have to put a shield up because I never know what people will say to me when I bring Michael up. I always do my best to show people the facts whether they want to listen to me or not.

 

[StacyJ]

I find this hard to talk to people outside of here or other forums. I have one friend at work who I know likes Michael and is mad at Murray but others just don't care. What gets me is how easily people brush off what Murray did because of their thoughts on Michael. About preparing ourselves about what the defense will say about Michael. I always feel like I have to put a shield up because I never know what people will say to me when I bring Michael up. I always do my best to show people the facts whether they want to listen to me or not.

The defense can't say too much without making Murray look guilty as hell. If Murray calls Michael an addict then he administered to an addict which is a crime in itself. I don't think he wants to admit that.

 

[StacyJ]

Michael's family should also be out there showing their outrage but they are saying absolutely nothing now and that's because they were the ones calling MJ an addict. They should've said from the beginning that Michael was murdered and his doctor is at fault but they refused to say that. Michael was helpless in the state he was in. He is the victim.

 

[marebear]

I just want people whether they are a fan or not to step back and look at what Murray did and remember he is actually a doctor. Then ask themselves what kind of doctor is this? He doesn't deserve a pass or to get away with this. I would feel the same way if this happened to anybody else. I would be upset that a doctor that we put our trust in for our health would do that somebody.

 

[bouee]

I think some of the info that we have from the last couple of days is actually wrong. Because people missed something maybe or didn't hear things right. Like yesterday, I still don't get the IV bag thing and where exactly that came from ("he cut IV bag open and poured the Propofol into it" - who would even know that, no one saw him do that?).

I think it came from some comments on trial and tribulations. Doctors are following the prelim there too, but, obviously only the prelim, they have not read the coroners report.

They are definitely not MJ fans, but they are all Murray haters , they are shocked by what they heard in testimonies about him.

 

[rita.gibson]

I think it would be fair to attribute the 'illegal' to that particular Grand Jury process since rather illegal things seemed to have happened there.

^^^without pronouncing all Grand Juries as illegal- one could probably call that one illegal due to it's illegal sounding activities.

Yes thank you PaceMDC thats how I understood it to be, you explained it better for me. :flowers:

I apolagize to Ivy because my comment 'agree to disagree' looks like I was disagreing with your post about how the Grand Jury system works, I found that very informative thank you. :flowers: now I can move on.

 

[Ingelief]

No, not really. Not if you are a night person (I think a lot of people suffering from insomnia are, one reason for their insomnia might even be the fact that society wants to force them into a "normal" sleeping pattern). Just from what I know, he was and a lot of creative people are. They just don't really function during the day, the best time for them to do whatever is to do it later in the day, afternoon, maybe even evening. And let them sleep at times when it's more likely for them to get some sleep. No one would try to turn around someone's sleeping pattern if the person goes to bed at 10 pm and gets up at 6 am in the morning and can only function that way. Because that's considered normal. Try to force them to sleep during the day and get up at noon or in the afternoon and you will turn them into someone who won't get much sleep anymore and won't be able to function anymore.

I always was a night person, you always hear from people "oh, just go to bed, get some sleep", and they don't get that it just doesn't work that way. You won't be able to sleep at the "wrong time", even if you are tired. Just like a morning person won't be able to sleep at noon. I read something a couple of years ago, might try to find a link, that they found out that it's actually genetic, your genes make you a morning person or night person. That's why it doesn't make much sense to force people into different sleeping patterns.

WOW so nice to understand it finally thank you for that! No i understand myself even more

wow thank you love ya

 

[rita.gibson]

and you're probably right.. but the fact remains he gave MJ anesthesia at home without monitoring equipment as a sleep aid. That is a fact and he admitted it only after lying to the EMTs and the ER doctor. That is egregious enough in my opinion for Murray to be suspended.

StacyJ I believe the Judgetold him he was not allowed to administer anesthetic to anyone.

 

[Milka]

I think it came from some comments on trial and tribulations. Doctors are following the prelim there too, but, obviously only the prelim, they have not read the coroners report.

Yeah, probably, and people posted yesterday that it was said on UStream as well. I couldn't really hear that part, sound kept breaking up, I heard something about an IV bag that was cut open (not the first time we heard that) and thought that's all that they were talking about probably. But from the posts here, there was a whole story around that IV bag on UStream.

When I said that I'm wondering where that came from, I meant in the courtroom, who said that and how did this person explain that they know he cut it open and poured the Propofol into it. How they know that and how they can prove that. Because I didn't hear anything about that. I still think people got it wrong, I don't know when the cut open IV bag was brought up the first time, it wasn't yesterday. But there was confusion about that right away. And I think it was said that a "cut open IV bag with an empty vial of Propofol in it" was found. And then there seemed to be a misunderstanding and some people were posting about an "IV bag that was cut open with Propofol in it", they seemed to have missed the "vial" part.

Without actual transcripts, we have to be very careful, all those sources are trying to be as accurate as possible, I'm sure of that, but their "job" is not an easy one.

And I just found a BBC article about genes and being a day person or night person:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2996364.stm

 

[Go Flying]

Given what I've heard of the testimony presented thus far, I am overwhelmingly of the opinion that Murray is guilty of at least 2nd degree murder.

However, given the LAPD and county coroner's decision not to secure the scene, and given the fact that critical items of evidence in the closet were not catalogued and secured by Fleak until the 29th (meanwhile moving trucks, LTJ and god knows who else were rummaging through the house), those evidential items in the closet room and in the bedroom itself are going to be very much less valuable to the prosecution in securing a conviction than they should have been.

I am hoping that Fleak's 'I don't remember' answers were specifically given to conceal the prosecution's evidence until a later date

 

[Topflux]

So were those prescription drugs written mostly for 'Michael Jackson'? However so many things earlier about the death scene is complete BS. For example all the drug lists were completely made up.. Year after year I believe less and less what is written. Even some of the newspapers that are not tabloids write BS.

 

[Milka]

WOW so nice to understand it finally thank you for that! No i understand myself even more

wow thank you love ya

I even have to explain this to doctors all the time, or at least try to, it's not like they will actually listen. Their job is to make you start your day early in the morning, they don't get the night person thing, they don't get insomnia. Not even doctors. Specialists maybe, but sometimes they don't either.

I just think that understanding insomnia is important in this case, especially for a jury, because they might not know much about it either. Because the defense will say Michael asked for the Propofol (and maybe he did, a doctor still has to say "no", so that's no defense for this doctor at all). An insomniac will ask for all kinds of things. Out of desperation. It's also important to understand insomnia to understand why he was given benzos (too many different ones in one night, in my opinion, but that's another story). And that the benzos have nothing to do with him being a "drug addict".

And something else - if you are an insomniac and don't get much sleep for longer periods of time, you start to feel very ill, you also don't have much appetite anymore either. So that could even explain why he apparently didn't eat much and why he was always thin.

 

[ilmjj]

I even have to explain this to doctors all the time, or at least try to, it's not like they will actually listen. Their job is to make you start your day early in the morning, they don't get the night person thing, they don't get insomnia. Not even doctors. Specialists maybe, but sometimes they don't either.

I just think that understanding insomnia is important in this case, especially for a jury, because they might not know much about it either. Because the defense will say Michael asked for the Propofol (and maybe he did, a doctor still has to say "no", so that's no defense for this doctor at all). An insomniac will ask for all kinds of things. Out of desperation. It's also important to understand insomnia to understand why he was given benzos (too many different ones in one night, in my opinion, but that's another story). And that the benzos have nothing to do with him being a "drug addict".

And something else - if you are an insomniac and don't get much sleep for longer periods of time, you start to feel very ill, you also don't have much appetite anymore either. So that could even explain why he apparently didn't eat much and why he was always thin.

Thank you Milka:wub:

 

[Ingelief]

So were those prescription drugs written mostly for 'Michael Jackson'? However so many things earlier about the death scene is complete BS. For example all the drug lists were completely made up.. Year after year I believe less and less what is written. Even some of the newspapers that are not tabloids write BS.

do you mean of another name ? the prescriptions?

And now it is for michael the name self?

 

[Ingelief]

I even have to explain this to doctors all the time, or at least try to, it's not like they will actually listen. Their job is to make you start your day early in the morning, they don't get the night person thing, they don't get insomnia. Not even doctors. Specialists maybe, but sometimes they don't either.

I just think that understanding insomnia is important in this case, especially for a jury, because they might not know much about it either. Because the defense will say Michael asked for the Propofol (and maybe he did, a doctor still has to say "no", so that's no defense for this doctor at all). An insomniac will ask for all kinds of things. Out of desperation. It's also important to understand insomnia to understand why he was given benzos (too many different ones in one night, in my opinion, but that's another story). And that the benzos have nothing to do with him being a "drug addict".

And something else - if you are an insomniac and don't get much sleep for longer periods of time, you start to feel very ill, you also don't have much appetite anymore either. So that could even explain why he apparently didn't eat much and why he was always thin.

Ok the benzos is to have less fair of not sleeping and waking up early?

Is it the same as this? I dont do anything before 12.30 pm and hope to get some sleep before.. and even then a get anxity because i found 15.00 pm early.. and i get scared and sleep even less? or just with meds

 

[izilda]

if the paramedics were allowed to pronounce the death still in the house Michael because they did not?
what I was most indignant is that if they had properly done its job this thug had been to as suspect number one
together with other pe...ople who were in the house
these paramedics helped murray to undo a crime scene
and the history of the catheter in the genitals of Michael, was to cleanse the body of the vestiges of propofol

 

[izilda]

However, the police department should have been there and roped it off and treated as one just in case. There were a lot of things handled inappropriately that day.

 

[Milka]

Ok the benzos is to have less fair of not sleeping and waking up early?

Is it the same as this? I dont do anything before 12.30 pm and hope to get some sleep before.. and even then a get anxity because i found 15.00 pm early.. and i get scared and sleep even less? or just with meds

I'm not sure I understand all of that ... but the benzos are supposed to make you feel relaxed, get rid of any anxiety, and they are also supposed to make you tired and fall asleep. Depends on the dose though, if it's too low, it won't work. And too much can be dangerous obviously. They are addictive too, so they shouldn't be given over a long period of time, just a few weeks at a time. But he took them under the care of a doctor (that sounds so wrong in this case ... but what I mean is he was not abusing them and got them from a doctor that he probably trusted).

And yes, especially if you have to get up at a certain time because you have an appointment or something, you probably won't be able to sleep at all and you will get anxiety as well most of the time. The right meds might help you with that sometimes, but not always. Sometimes you just have to live with the fact that you have to go to the appointment without any sleep the night before.

P.S.:

Thank you Milka:wub:

You are welcome.

 

[Tipareth]

I even have to explain this to doctors all the time, or at least try to, it's not like they will actually listen. Their job is to make you start your day early in the morning, they don't get the night person thing, they don't get insomnia. Not even doctors. Specialists maybe, but sometimes they don't either.

I just think that understanding insomnia is important in this case, especially for a jury, because they might not know much about it either. Because the defense will say Michael asked for the Propofol (and maybe he did, a doctor still has to say "no", so that's no defense for this doctor at all). An insomniac will ask for all kinds of things. Out of desperation. It's also important to understand insomnia to understand why he was given benzos (too many different ones in one night, in my opinion, but that's another story). And that the benzos have nothing to do with him being a "drug addict".

And something else - if you are an insomniac and don't get much sleep for longer periods of time, you start to feel very ill, you also don't have much appetite anymore either. So that could even explain why he apparently didn't eat much and why he was always thin.

:clapping::clapping: Agree 1000%

 

[Ingelief]

I'm not sure I understand all of that ... but the benzos are supposed to make you feel relaxed, get rid of any anxiety, and they are also supposed to make you tired and fall asleep. Depends on the dose though, if it's too low, it won't work. And too much can be dangerous obviously. They are addictive too, so they shouldn't be given over a long period of time, just a few weeks at a time. But he took them under the care of a doctor (that sounds so wrong in this case ... but what I mean is he was not abusing them and got them from a doctor that he probably trusted).

And yes, especially if you have to get up at a certain time because you have an appointment or something, you probably won't be able to sleep at all and you will get anxiety as well most of the time. The right meds might help you with that sometimes, but not always. Sometimes you just have to live with the fact that you have to go to the appointment without any sleep the night before.

P.S.:


You are welcome.

Make sense, it would have been better in my oppions to be on Seroquel an antipsychotic not because you are psychotic buts the side effects are helpfull with sleeping and anxiaty and there not addictive.,

 

[Milka]

Make sense, it would have been better in my oppions to be on Seroquel an antipsychotic not because you are psychotic buts the side effects are helpfull with sleeping and anxiaty and there not addictive.,

That doesn't always work either. Also, I'm not a big fan of this class of meds to treat insomnia, they can have severe side effects and long time effects. That's just my opinion. But yeah, like Tipareth has said in this thread, treating insominia is very complicated and doesn't always work.

P.S.:

And I forgot to say - what I said about Seroquel is my opinion, if you take it, don't stop taking it, your doctor has a reason for prescribing it to you.

 

[Ingelief]

That doesn't always work either. Also, I'm not a big fan of this class of meds to treat insomnia, they can have severe side effects and long time effects. That's just my opinion. But yeah, like Tipareth has said in this thread, treating insominia is very complicated and doesn't always work.

ok it helpes for me