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Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

Given that Murray has lied SO much, and omitted so much (i.e. not telling EMTs or hospital personnel that he had given propofol, and other lies), I'd take ANYTHING he says with less than a grain of salt. Including whatever statements he might have made about how many nights he actually gave Michael propofol. . . .
 
well that is your explanation...just because you say it ,,,it doesn't ,make it so....we have no idea why Murray did what he did...he has lied so much nothing he says can be believed...all I know is that he killed Michael ...he lied about what he gave him to the paramedics...it took him 2days to admit he gave him propofol....he tried to clean up the crime scene...he delayed calling 911...nothing Murry did made any sense....so I will not presume to even try to state why he did what he did with the propofol in the bag....it will come out eventually I am sure...evil always finds its way to the light. I believe it will this time too.
 
The cut open IV bag could be from the day before, or maybe from the same night, used to treat dehydration, and then for some reason he cut the empty bag open and put the vial in it during the clean up. I don't see how this IV bag needs a long and complicated story built around it. Who knows, maybe he thought he could get everything into one or two empty IV bags and smuggle it out of the house hidden in his jacket, so that he isn't seen walking out with a bag in his hands.
 
God, GOD , I'm not basing anything on what Murray said. Where did I say Murray said that?

The prosecution sure has a theory of what had happened between January and June of 2009 between MJ & Murray , the defence has a theory to counter it.

We have a very good idea what the defense theory is based on Murray's statement to the police and his lawyers interviews with the media.

That interview was scripted, was created around FACTS Murray knew would be discovered by the prosecution, he TWISTED those facts, manipulated them to suit " a psychological dependence" when infact he was a manipulative liar, pretending he was doing a job he knew he was not trained to do and demanding millions for a job he was not even performing. Adams, Lee, everything was mentioned for a reason in that interview . He and his lawyers created everything around medical facts they could n't refute .

You have to understand the hair sample results were known to Murray and his team before anyone else, he was the one administering the drugs and they will indicate chronic yet very small propofol use .

Murray delivered his explanation in his interview with the police, he created a story about "the psychological addict Jackson" .

Why did he create that story? He knew the prosecution would discover he was only INDUCEING sleep using propofol , not out of concern , not because he cared about MJ like he claims but because maintaining sleep needed his attention, needed training, needed equipments , and Murray was not prepared to shift his attention from his mistresses to Jackson all night, did not bring equipment because he had no intention to give propofol, all he cared about was the money he was charging Jackson for , he was doing nothing but injecting highly addictive sedatives Jackson was against.

What was the root for his 50mg of propofol daily for six weeks story ? Think of that before rushing to say MJ was too smart , and we won't support what Murray says .

No one is questioning MJ's intelligence, no one is basing anything on what Murray says.

Face an argument with an argument , Murray being a manipulator , a fraud, a liar, an opportunistic as the prosecution BEGAN and will continue to portray him does not mean MJ was stupid.
 
Soundmind said:
and you know what, I believe that's why he injected him rapidly , because MJ started to wake up and Murray did not have the time to re attach that 100ml propofol vial instead of the saline bag , he freaked out injected rapidly so MJ would not see the vial un attached and would discover he was not sedated using propofol. That would explaine the tear in the rubber stopper. Once Murray induced sleep using a bolus injection , he dis attached the propofol vial and replaced it with the saline bag, got an old saline bag and put that propofol vial in it , to reattach it again before MJ wake up .
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good point about the 2nd iv bag. would explain why it was there. i too had this idea that murray used propofol only to induce sleep and then used lorazepam to maintain it.

i also wonder whether he always used a second propofol bolus when mj was waking up. to wake up from lorazepam feels different than waking up from propofol to my knowledge. so when mj began to wake up he gave a propofol bolus and then used anexate to counter the effect of the lorazepam. - does this make sense?
 
Soundmind said:
Guys I have a theory for why he had a 100ml=1000mg propofol bottle in a saline bag there .
It was there for MJ to see it ONLY. It was there for show purposes, MJ would go to sleep believing Murray was going to give him propofol all night when he was not. He would wake up and see the propofol bag there and believe he was being sedated using propofol.

Murray was not sedating MJ using propofol all these weeks. Murray was sedating MJ using LORAZEPAM. He knew he was not trained to give propofol, but he wanted the job badly, he told MJ I'll give it to you but his plans was to use his lovely HIGHLY ADDICTIVE benzos and ONLY A BOLUS INJECTION here and there of propofol .

No wonder MJ became a mess, how could he perform under lorazepam , God , Murray needs to be punished severely for this crime.

He was fooling MJ, Mj refused to take the benzos as pills because they were addictive, they cause hallucinations , Murray started to give him benzos intravenously. He would hang the 1000mg propofol vial there , take a syringe withdraw propofol from the vial while MJ watching and tell him I'm gonna injected it to induce sleep and then we will maintain sleep using the IV drip BUT THAT WAS IT, once MJ was sedated he would start injecting the benzos . That's why he said he was only giving MJ small amounts daily
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But in was in the bag, they cut it open right and put a bottle in a ivbag, how is that for show? you cant use a open ivbag with an bottle in it right? so i dont understand you?
 
Milka said:
Ok, that doesn't make much sense. That would mean Michael would have been stupid enough to believe that that's how an IV works, just cut it open and put the vial in it. No one can be that stupid. Especially if you have been in hospital as a patient more than once in your life.
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ok that was my post also too
 
Soundmind said:
OMG , I said there was a TEAR IN THE RUBBER STOPPER, so obviously before MJ went to sleep it was there attached to the long tube via a spike instead of the IV bag , MJ was exposed to propofol before Murray, so he knew inorder to induce sleep you have to receive a BOLUS INJECTION, Murray would inject a bolus injection first then he would maintain sleep using the IV drip , that's how propofol is given and that's how MJ received it before and that's what he thought was going. After the bolus injection MJ would be out , Murray would REPLACE the propofol vial with a saline bag . Before MJ woke up he would stop the iv drip and replace the saline bag with the propofol vial. MJ would woke up , ofcourse he would see the propofol vial hung up there and believed he was awake because the IV drip was stopped by Murray.

read carefully please
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how thats that work? can you place a bottle on a tube from an iv? i never have seen that? And there was not iv bag found with propofol in it right?
 
ok soundmind please chill... we know you have a strong opinion but just say it and not try to bite so much.... im working on that issue myself.
 
but people a cut open iv bag u can see its transpandent you dont put a bottle in a open ivbag plus there would be no fluid running because you cant put any fluid in a open iv bag, so you see a bag open no fluid and a bottle inside?

and thats a theory of ivdrip being tricked???
 
Ingelief said:
but people a cut open iv bag u can see its transpandent you dont put a bottle in a open ivbag plus there would be no fluid running because you cant put any fluid in a open iv bag, so you see a bag open no fluid and a bottle inside?

and thats a theory of ivdrip being tricked???
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Hence, my remark about Michael not being stupid. Right. There would be no fluid running, and a bottle in a bag. Anyone who's been in or worked in a hospital would know that's extremely strange. .. .? Most likely, Murray just put the bottle in there as he was cleaning up the scene.
 
Justthefacts said:
Let me try something here and someone who knows more then I do please step in and help me and correct me if need be. Them saying Michael did it himself. If Michael's prints are not on any syringes any IV bags or any of that equipment we can all can conclude he did not do it himself. Now lets just say Michael's prints were on a syringe barrel the broken one. If Murray keeps saying he only gave Michael 25 milligrams explain to me how is it that so much got into Michael's body? Well he did it OK so he did it you know what that means. Michael Jackson was super human he was able to inject so much Propofol into himself without passing out. Soundmind can tell you about a person who died from injecting himself with Propofol but he or she injected himself over 11 times before they did. Michael could do a lot of superhuman things on stage but off stage he was all but human which is why we are here. And no expert is going to risk there reputation saying it is possible no way in hell. And about them calling Michael and addict Ivy I may need you to come straighten this out if I goof it up. I believe that you would have to show a judge that his "addictions" somehow played a part in his death. Remember Michael's trail and that 1108 jazz? Sneddon said Michael had a pattern that is how he was able to get it to come in. Never mind the fact that three of the young man said it never happened one of them was punk bitch and ran and hid and one was so bad jury laughed at him. He was able to get in because of the charges Michael faced. And having said all of that Mez was able to show that the family had a history of scams. Michael's defense was I did not do it they are trying to scam me here is proof and here is proof that they have done it before. Now in this case we have a man who battled a addiction almost 20 years and there is no proof that he was an active addict in the last years of his life in fact just the opposite. Hence why people like me were so pissed at his family because now we see it was not a good idea. Lets look at the Ana Nicole trial no one was able to establish that Ana was an addict because despite her crazy behavior despite her out of control ways all of the pills she had she had a reason to have them. Why did Michael have sleep medicine he could not sleep. Why did Michael have muscle relaxers? Well Michael had back pain Michael had arthritis he had a reason to have it. Anti Inflammatory medicine Michael had lupus enough said. The antibiotics. Michael had inflamed lungs which made it easy for him to get bacterial infections he needed them. And the sleep medication I need not say anything about that but this. Most of them came from Murray himself some of them are highly addictive. If they are going to say Michael was an addict what is stopping the DA from asking the jury to consider prescribing to an addict? Because after all that is what Murray did if they want to call Michael an addict. My point in saying this is this if Murray wants to say Michael was an addict at first he is going to have to prove at the time of his death Michael was an addict and he won't be able to do it. Just like Anna Nicole no one could say she was an addict when it was clear as day she was.
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You raise good points.

The addict story is just PR IMO. I don't see how that could help Murray, and it's irrelevant. It won't be supported by facts, and Murray is on trial because of the way he used propofol (the dose was not lethal according to coroner's report) , because he delayed calling 911. The fact that he lied to the paramedics, tried to hide evidence, lied to the police, will show that he was aware he did something wrong.

Now legally speaking, if Murray had used propofol correctly, called 911 straight away, but Michael had died anyway, would he be charged with something ?


Self injection : Soundmind what about what you said 1 or 2 days ago, that self injection could be proved impossible ? The coroner specifically ruled out self injection, and that's one of the reasons MJ's death was ruled a homicide. (the other reason was the way propofol was used).
So the defense is going to challenge the coroner ? I suppose the coroner will testify and explain his reasons.

It's a lot easier for Chernoff and co to imply that a 3rd person was there, I don't understand his self injection thing, I think it's just part of his PR stuff. He will hint at self injection (his questions about that to Elissa Fleak were obected to, so she did not answer, Chernoff might have expected the objection, and honestly his question made no sense at all). I don't think Chernoff will go any further than hints. And that if only the "who gave the fatal dose" is actually important, and I am not sure it is.
Comments from non fans in the medical field on other blogs say that too : whoever gave the last dose doesn't matter, if there had been proper monitoring and ressucitation, MJ would not have died.

And from that phone call with Sade, it seems clear Murray was not far, he was in the room IMO. From what I remember of the bedroom, it was big, Sade would have not heard the commotion if the phone was in another room.

I have been trying hard to think what would I do if I was Chernoff. I really can't think of anything, other than give up and defend someone else..
 
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bouee said:
I have been trying hard to think what would I do if I was Chernoff. I really can't think of anything, other than give up and defend someone else..
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Chernoff is in an unfortunate position. Sadly, if I were Chernoff, at this point I'd be telling Murray it is NOT going well for him, and to cop-a-plea. I sincerely hope that does NOT happen. Don't know if the DA would accept a plea-bargain, anyway.

The "Michael self-injected" tactic isn't going to work, for a variety of reasons enumerated here. The "Michael was an addict" story isn't going to work, either, because that fable is irrelevant to what Murray did (giving propofol at HOME without proper equipment/staffing) Plus, if Murray tries that tactic he could also be charged with "prescribing to an addict," so that is lose-lose for Murray.

That leaves "story three," which would be, "Someone ELSE was there who gave the fatal dose." The question then would be. . . . WHO? Michael's room was very restricted, so who would that possibly have been? Murray hasn't alluded to this, at all. There is NO chance this isn't going to trial (unless Murray pleads-out, which I sincerely hope he does NOT.)
 
Autumn II said:
Chernoff is in an unfortunate position. Sadly, if I were Chernoff, at this point I'd be telling Murray it is NOT going well for him, and to cop-a-plea. I sincerely hope that does NOT happen. Don't know if the DA would accept a plea-bargain, anyway.
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What would happen if Murray tried to plea bargain, and the judge or the DA refuses ? Would that be considered as an admission of guilt ?
 
bouee said:
What would happen if Murray tried to plea bargain, and the judge or the DA refuses ? Would that be considered as an admission of guilt ?
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Good question. Maybe Ivy can answer when she comes online?

The testimony thus far has been very damaging to Murray, and he really doesn't have much of a defense. Yes, it would be easy to prove that he DID those things -- the propofol without proper equipment or staffing; not telling EMTS or hospital staff about the propofol; trying to conceal evidence; making a phone call from the ambulance, and all the rest of it. So, maybe a plea wouldn't be that much of an admission from what the DA already knows?

If he attempts a plea, the DA has the right to refuse it. A plea-bargain is usually for a lower sentence/penalty, especially if a case seems to be a lost-cause. A plea is most usually given for testimony implicating someone ELSE in a crime, as well as the person pleading-out. (i.e. throwing someone else under the bus) That doesn't seem likely in this case. No one else has been accused. Unless there is some sort of wild-card? (not likely)

The DA has political ambition, so going to trial would give him a lot of PR. It's unlikely that he would LOSE. So in that sense, he might not be inclined to accept a plea? But on the other hand, accepting a plea would save a lot of tax-payer money from the expense of a drawn-out trial.

I very much hope there is NO plea, because if there is, this brief prelim testimony might be all we'll ever get in terms of what really happened, with testimony under oath? So far, it seems much WORSE than what we anticipated?
 
But in was in the bag, they cut it open right and put a bottle in a iv bag, how is that for show? you cant use a open iv bag with an bottle in it right? so i dont understand you?
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It was not inside the bag before MJ was sedated, it was hooked to the LONG TUBING via a spike instead of the saline bag , that's why the rubber stopper had a tear caused by a spike. After Murray induced sleep he replaced that 1000mg propofol vial with the saline bag . He put the propofol vial there in his reach so it was easier for him to AGAIN re attach it to the LONG TUBING whenever he felt MJ was waking up. When MJ was coughing, it was too late for him, he needed to sedate him again , to have enough time to continue his game, but the injection was rapid . Got what I'm saying?

The defence is asking for re tests of that long tubing WHY? that also would explain that, they want to focus on the spike , Murray knows what he did, they still have some hope they would find ANY PROPOFOL on that SPIKE.

Hence, my remark about Michael not being stupid. Right. There would be no fluid running, and a bottle in a bag. Anyone who's been in or worked in a hospital would know that's extremely strange. .. .? Most likely, Murray just put the bottle in there as he was cleaning up the scene.
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No , Vic by the time MJ was awake there would be no bottle in a bag , there would be a 1000mg propofol vial hooked to the long tubing instead of the saline bag and MJ would not find it strange that no fluid was running , after all for him to wake up Murray had to stop the propofol IV drip .

You have to remember in MJ there was very very small amount of propofol BESIDE the last injection. So why would a 1000mg propofol vial be there?
especially if you take into account there was an EMPTY 200 mg propofol vial in that room , 200 vial was everything MJ received that day .


Did not Alvarez (girlfriend) testify Murray was spending more time at MJ's house the last 15 days ?

MJ was asking him to come over more often , why?

Propofol was not addictive, why Murray's presence was more needed?

Propofol as we all know could not be the reason, my theory an increasing dependency on benzos. MJ was not aware what Murray was giving him , he believed that was propofol.

That why I have always believed no doctor with good intentions would prescribe a patient expected to deliver the performance MJ was known for, temazepam, lorazepam, midazolam.

Murray was going to London, how would have he obtained propofol there? Murray was determined to make MJ dependant on something HE COULD PROVIDE SO HE WOULD BE HIRED AND HE COULD ASK FOR THE FIGURE HE WANTED . That makes MJ stupid ? or that answers the chronic very small doses of propofol the hair samples will prove ?
That would be a theory the prosecution might come up with MAYBE ALREADY THEY KNOW IT, to counter Murray's defence "I was weaning him off propofol that why I was giving him only 50mg daily" .

How would that make MJ stupid? That paint Murray as a monster , a criminal since day one. That makes MJ an addict? or that makes Murray a doctor who wanted his patient to BECOME an addict?
 
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Tipareth said:
I've tried getting help for my chronic insomnia at professionals. Over and over again, but in vain.

Finally I gave up. Natural diet improve it for me, and now I sleep well. But if I work more than 5-6 hours per day, insomnia bursts again very forceful. I am kinda doomed regarding having full job. It's like a curse. :(


This was my motivation to study Psychology, and I've graduated couple for years ago and went to post uni study of psychotherapy. But I cannot work in the field, because there are too many hours and insomnia gets my butt again....
I know few good methods discovered by myself, I've been my own lab rat for experimenting,, to relieve it and induce sleep without mediation but not totally cure for it.

Cure for an insomnia like Mike got or I, does not exist. It's brain chemistry and energy that cannot be changed radically. At least this is my opinion as patient and one that studied psychology.
I think in the future more and more psychologists will agree with what I am saying...


For people with that kind of insomnia best hours for work are between 2 pm - 8pm. All morning dedicated to late catches sleep ( if lucky ) and relaxation. Enough hours to get to work and do not over stress... Then at nights enough hours to properly relax the brain excitation before going to bed.
With some methods one can enter sleep around 1-2 am, or at least 4 am and sleep till 10 or so in the morning
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Thanks. It was enlightening. Sad to here there's no really cure for chronic insomnia. :(
 
Autumn II said:
Good question. Maybe Ivy can answer when she comes online?


The DA has political ambition, so going to trial would give him a lot of PR. It's unlikely that he would LOSE. So in that sense, he might not be inclined to accept a plea? But on the other hand, accepting a plea would save a lot of tax-payer money from the expense of a drawn-out trial.
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And I think so many people -MJ fans, but not only - want to know what happened, that a public trial is necessary. All the information they have needs to be made public, IMO.
A plea bargain would only create more rumors, about MJ , but also about the DA, LAPD, etc...

I am French, and here the plea bargain is new, and only for small offences. For us, it is extremely strange to "negociate" a verdict and sentence. The verdict or a sentence would be only up to a judge or, for major crimes, to a jury.
The prosecution or the defense would never be allowed to negociate : facts are facts, if you did something wrong, then it's not up to you to participate in your own verdict or sentencing.
I'm not saying that the French system is better than the US system, it's just different, and this can be a bit confusing for us.
 
Soundmind said:
It was not inside the bag before MJ was sedated, it was hooked to the LONG TUBING via a spike instead of the saline bag , that's why the rubber stopper had a tear caused by a spike. After Murray induced sleep he replaced that 1000mg propofol vial with the saline bag . He put the propofol vial there in his reach so it was easier for him to AGAIN re attach it to the LONG TUBING whenever he felt MJ was waking up. When MJ was coughing, it was too late for him, he needed to sedate him again , to have enough time to continue his game, but the injection was rapid . Got what I'm saying?

The defence is asking for re tests of that long tubing WHY? that also would explain that, they want to focus on the spike , Murray knows what he did, they still have some hope they would find ANY PROPOFOL on that SPIKE.



No , Vic by the time MJ was awake there would be no bottle in a bag , there would be a 1000mg propofol vial hooked to the long tubing instead of the saline bag and MJ would not find it strange that no fluid was running , after all for him to wake up Murray had to stop the propofol IV drip .

You have to remember in MJ there was very very small amount of propofol BESIDE the last injection. So why would a 1000mg propofol vial be there?
especially if you take into account there was an EMPTY 200 mg propofol vial in that room , 200 vial was everything MJ received that day .


Did not Alvarez (girlfriend) testify Murray was spending more time at MJ's house the last 15 days ?

MJ was asking him to come over more often , why?

Propofol was not addictive, why Murray's presence was more needed?

Propofol as we all now was not the reason, my theory an increasing dependency on benzos. MJ was not aware what Murray was giving him , he believed that was propofol.

That why I have always believed no doctor with good intentions would prescribe a patient expected to deliver the performance MJ was known , temazepam, lorazepam, midazolam.

Murray was going to London, how would he obtain propofol there? Murray was determined to make MJ dependant on something HE COULD PROVIDE SO HE WOULD BE HIRED AND HE WOULD ASK FOR THE FIGURE HE WANTED . That makes MJ stupid ? or that answers the chronic very small doses of propofol the hair samples will prove ?
That would be a theory the prosecution might come up with MAYBE ALREADY THEY KNOW IT, to counter Murray's defence "I was weaning him off propofol" .

How would that make MJ stupid? That paint Murray as a monster , a criminal since day one.
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I understand what you are saying. I just don't think its plausible, and this convo is now repetitive and it seems best to move on, now? Don't know what Murray was planning to do in London, but propofol IS available there, legally or illegally? He got it in the U.S., sooooo?

I cannot get behind the theory that Murray was SECRETLY giving Michael the benzos. In that case, Michael would have been physically addicted (drug-addict defense, with a variation, i.e. that "gee, Michael was an addict but didn't KNOW?") The benzos are highly addictive, emotionally AND physically, i.e. a person would have withdrawal symptoms if the drug was abruptly withdrawn. If he was receiving it only at NIGHT, without his knowledge, and only by I.V., he could have been having withdrawal symptoms late in the day and not know why! (He apparently was not taking this medication orally, and it doesn't have that long of a profound effect. I've taken those some of those drugs a couple of times, and they wear off in about four hours, mostly. That is what I experienced, anyway.) Or, he would recognize the symptoms and try to figure it out, and if he did, he'd be ANGRY with Murray?

It actually doesn't take that long for someone to be physically addicted to those drugs (which is why prescriptions have limits). So, this seems to me to be a variation of the drug-addict fable, but that Michael was being duped?

Thanks for presenting your theory, but let's just move on now, ok? I think this has run its course?
 
That would also explain why the defence are asking to re test the fluids in the bag. which made no sense to us before.

If the propofol vial was hooked to the long tubing via a spike when MJ was still awake , and Murray replaced it with the saline bag, they have some hope propofol traces could be still found in the fluids inside the bag because of the SPIKE .

Does that make sense to you ?

It would be very interesting to know how much liquid lorazepam Murray bought. I'm no longer interested in the propofol aspect, the benzos are more criminating to Murray.
 
bouee said:
You raise good points.

The addict story is just PR IMO. I don't see how that could help Murray, and it's irrelevant. It won't be supported by facts, and Murray is on trial because of the way he used propofol (the dose was not lethal according to coroner's report) , because he delayed calling 911. The fact that he lied to the paramedics, tried to hide evidence, lied to the police, will show that he was aware he did something wrong.

Now legally speaking, if Murray had used propofol correctly, called 911 straight away, but Michael had died anyway, would he be charged with something ?


Self injection : Soundmind what about what you said 1 or 2 days ago, that self injection could be proved impossible ? The coroner specifically ruled out self injection, and that's one of the reasons MJ's death was ruled a homicide. (the other reason was the way propofol was used).
So the defense is going to challenge the coroner ? I suppose the coroner will testify and explain his reasons.

It's a lot easier for Chernoff and co to imply that a 3rd person was there, I don't understand his self injection thing, I think it's just part of his PR stuff. He will hint at self injection (his questions about that to Elissa Fleak were obected to, so she did not answer, Chernoff might have expected the objection, and honestly his question made no sense at all). I don't think Chernoff will go any further than hints. And that if only the "who gave the fatal dose" is actually important, and I am not sure it is.
Comments from non fans in the medical field on other blogs say that too : whoever gave the last dose doesn't matter, if there had been proper monitoring and ressucitation, MJ would not have died.

And from that phone call with Sade, it seems clear Murray was not far, he was in the room IMO. From what I remember of the bedroom, it was big, Sade would have not heard the commotion if the phone was in another room.

I have been trying hard to think what would I do if I was Chernoff. I really can't think of anything, other than give up and defend someone else..
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That lady heard a cough and a voice she did not recognize as Murray's. That is important because Murray has an accent she would def know what his voice sounds ESP if she is his girlfriend. And there was only he and Michael in that room it would hard to argue that there was a third person in that room when you consider that everyone else in that house that day can account for each other. And like I said if Michael's prints are not on anything and once it is pointed out that it would be impossible for Michael to give himself that much Propofol that self inject nonsense will go away
 
Soundmind, I DO see what you are saying. I've thought it through carefully, and I simply don't agree with the theory. I really don't think that Michael was an "accidental or clueless addict." I doubt he was an addict, at ALL! But agree-to-disagree should be ok? Variety is good? I'll move on now, though.
 
Soundmind said:
That would also explain why the defence are asking to re test the fluids in the bag. which made no sense to us before.

If the propofol vial was hooked to the long tubing via a spike when MJ was still awake , and Murray replaced it with the saline bag, they have some hope propofol traces could be still found in the fluids inside the bag because of the SPIKE .

Does that make sense to you ?

It would be very interesting to know how much liquid lorazepam Murray bought. I'm no longer interested in the propofol aspect, the benzos are more criminating to Murray.
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Yes it makes sense to me. My question would be the same as Victoria's : wouldn't Michael have noticed as he knew what benzos do ?

I guess the answers will also be in the hair tox report. Might be why it was not released, and why they collected hair so late.
 
I'm not addressing you Vic, I've learned long time ago not to discuss anything with someone who for months was determined to prove Murray was hired by AEG to kill MJ. This is not for you.

for months you were one of those who believe MJ was too smart to ask for propofol and that's why you believed he was KILLED INTENTIONALLY by Sony AEG....etc

You are using the same argument now, MJ was smart for Murray to do so.

Yes it makes sense to me. My question would be the same as Victoria's : wouldn't Michael have noticed as he knew what benzos do ?
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sure, that's why Murray was terrified when Ortega was complaining and asked for a meeting with AEG bosses to blame it on KLIEN and his treatment.

That would also explain that MJ began to have his doubts and why he called LEE eventhough he had a doctor there .

That might be why Murray freaked out when MJ woke up and the IV propofol was not attached to the long tubing , he feared MJ's suspicions would be confirmed, especially if we are to believe Murray at the time did not remove the benzos from the room.

Murray was afraid he would be exposed sooner than later, but he needed more time to make MJ an addict dependent on him , plus his contract was still not signed.
 
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Soundmind said:
It was not inside the bag before MJ was

Propofol was not addictive, why Murray's presence was more needed?

Propofol as we all know could not be the reason, my theory an increasing dependency on benzos. MJ was not aware what Murray was giving him , he believed that was propofol.
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Sincerely I do not think Mike was getting dependent on benzos...

Why? Because if those benzos cannot induce sleep, the brain is resistant to them. Meanign one change them often and almost nothing happens, how can a real dependence be built on that?

I was myself in same situation with really bad insomnia, and the psychiatrists changed very often my medication and in vain. I was complaining many times, and they were desperate with my case. I didn't get dependent cause they weren't effective on me on the first place.

I think that benzos came first just to make Mike relaxed and bit sedated, then bit of Propofol to make him sleep, after that benzos continued to keep him sedated, and hopefully Mike would have slept longer even after the Propofol effect went away. Maybe they went like this for couple of weeks and everything worked out fine.




However Murray did that day was unusual, and I do not think he is stupid and he did not know what to do, suddenly. Murray did it on purpose, and on purpose plan it to appear accidental or reckless.

For few weeks he was able to do it without endangering Mike. That's why I think that there's more into it.
I think Mike didn't receive so much Propofol usually, only 25 miligrams as Murray said.... ( if one could search more, the amount of Propofol Murray ever purchased wasn't that much. Calculate that for few weeks and see that the amount would not be enough )
But not on that night and that morning..... On that night the ritual changed. Everything changed on that night/day.


For me this is a very well executed murder.
 
Justthefacts said:
it would hard to argue that there was a third person in that room when you consider that everyone else in that house that day can account for each other.
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I agree with you, and as I said before I believe the voice and cough were Michael's. It sounds logical to me.

What worries me is that it will be difficult to have a timeline that would be precise enough to establish the time of the last injection, because the time of death can not be precisely determined. So Chernoff can more or less "adjust" it.

Now he keeps asking for fingerprints, when finding fingerprints wouldn't help much since a lot of people went into the room and touched stuff after.

He hinted at the bodyguards, Alberto and Faheem. If I remember correctly, Alberto was on his way to the house, Faheem at the bank. There were housekeeper(s) also.
You see what I mean ?

That is if proving, in a legal sense, who injected the last dose is important, I'm definetely not sure it is.
 
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