Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

Elusive, You are right Melville & co did up the charges from 10 to 14 towards the end of the trial, I think it was the press conference they were changed from 7 to 10 something like that but Defo 10 to 14 towards end when they started to sweat.
 
im sorry but i dont get it the urine sample and then how much was given of propofol.. soundmind how do you come to less than 200 mg?

and if its go away from the body quickly can it be much higher? i also read lethal amount of propofol

Reading the last couple of pages, I was wondering the same. If it leaves the body rather quickly, didn't they just find what was given, I don't know, in the last 30 minutes or something? Wouldn't that mean we don't know how much he was given before that? Or 2 hours or 5 hours earlier? They found 3 open lidocaine vials, as far as I remember 2 empty and one opened but with some lidocaine still in it. Couldn't that mean that he gave him 3 Propofol injections?
 
First of all I reported all of those who said I was implying MJ was an addict. If you are unable to comprehend what I said , it's really not my problem.

Second :

Propofol does metabolize fast, after half an hour let's say an hour , a normal dose (induction dose) would disappear from your blood, liver,Brain, but not urine. You need to urinate in order for propofol to disappear from your body, clear?


In his bladder , there was 550 ml , under normal circumstances that amount would have been produced within 10 to 11 hours. So 0.10ug/ml meant . He received very small amount of propofol relatively in the last 10 to 11 hours of his life.

Where did that estimation come from ? there are other cases of death caused by propofol .

One of them was a male nurse who injected up to 11 vial of 200mg ( 2200mg in total)in the last six hours of his life. The urine concentration was 5.5 ug/ml . Other case was a Chinese nurse who hooked himself to an IV drip and infused propofol, he received almost 1600mg and his urine concentration was if I remember correctly 4ug/ml.
2200mg , the urine concentration was 5.5ug/ml ( in his bladder 350ml urine)
1600mg the urine concentration was 4 (+-)ug/ml

Tell me now a urine concentration of 0.10 ug/ml , how much propofol could have he received ?
Nothing exceeding 200mg IF NOT EVEN LESS.

Don't also forget in the urine (450ml) at the scene propofol concentration was 0.15ug/ml.

So indeed MJ was receiving one or two bolus injections MAXIMUM during a relatively LONG TIME , HOURS.

Why would he do that? What was the point? Is that even logical for someone who needed 8 hours of sedation?

Do those who say I'm trying to prove MJ was an addict THINK COMPREHEND UNDERSTAND before they rush to accuse others ?
 
the coroner did not say how much was given.
He said what was found. The amount given here (less than 200mg) is a deduction from what was found, and where (blood/urine).

The coroner never said the amounts of propofol found were lethal. I think the police wrote that, I think I read that in one of the affidavits.
The anestheliogist report (in the coroner's report) said that the amount of propofol found was similar to general anesthesia.

I am just wondering where Soundmind got the "less than 200mg" from because he/she keeps posting that as a fact. I just want everyone to quote where they got things from or at least explain what their medical background and their level of expertice is.

Reading the last couple of pages, I was wondering the same. If it leaves the body rather quickly, didn't they just find what was given, I don't know, in the last 30 minutes or something? Wouldn't that mean we don't know how much he was given before that? Or 2 hours or 5 hours earlier? They found 3 open lidocaine vials, as far as I remember 2 empty and one opened but with some lidocaine still in it. Couldn't that mean that he gave him 3 Propofol injections?

To me the amount of Lidocaine used would imply more Propofol was also used than is being said, also the multiple Propofol bottles found open would speak for that. Unless Murray used all that Lidocaine for something else we don't know about. We usually use one 5 ml Lidocaine bottle for one 50ml Propofol bottle. If you use 2,5 ml of Propofol, you only need a DROP of lidocaine.....which is why I don't understand why all those Lidocaine bottles were open....
 
Do those who say I'm trying to prove MJ was an addict THINK COMPREHEND UNDERSTAND before they rush to accuse others ?

You know, until yesterday, we had a pretty nice atmosphere in the threads about the hearing. Not anymore though. I really have a problem with your aggressive and condescending tone at times. Nobody knows what actually happened, we can just try to piece the puzzle together, I don't think it helps if someone is trying to force his view, his theory on other people.
 
Of COURSE the DA will not play on that. But the defense WILL play on exactly that. . . . . .


whatever

I am just wondering where Soundmind got the "less than 200mg" from because he/she keeps posting that as a fact. I just want everyone to quote where they got things from or at least explain what their medical background is and their level of expertise

Read my previous post.
To me the amount of Lidocaine used would imply more Propofol was also used than is being said, also the multiple Propofol bottles found open would speak for that. Unless Murray used all that Lidocaine for something else we don't know about. We usually use one 5 ml Lidocaine bottle for one 50ml Propofol bottle. If you use 2,5 ml of Propofol, you only need a DROP of lidocaine.....which is why I don't understand why all those Lidocaine bottles were open....

That's why I sent you yesterday a private message asking you whether lidocaine could be used to sedate someone.
 
and yes the hair samples will show MJ was taking small doses very small doses for weeks , Murray knew that .

That's why the concentrations of propofol in the urine at the scene and in the bladder were very small relatively.

The hair samples will show increasing benzos dependancy in the last two months of his life. Murray will claim MJ was taking his pills and he only gave him lorazepam the last two days. That man is a criminal beyond words

See bolded. "Increasing benzos dependency. . . " so that should clear that up, as to what was said? I think he was not addicted/dependent, though. Evidence at trial should clear up that question, regardless. Moving right along. .

Does anyone know the potential roster of witnesses when court resumes tomorrow? (Monday)
 
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whatever



Read my previous post.


That's why I sent you yesterday a private message asking you whether lidocaine could be used to sedate someone.

I just wanna know what your medical background is? Are you a nurse, doctor, a biochemist...someone who studied pharmacology...?
 
I am just wondering where Soundmind got the "less than 200mg" from because he/she keeps posting that as a fact. I just want everyone to quote where they got things from or at least explain what their medical background and their level of expertice is.

The less than 200 mg thing was posted a few days ago as well. Don't remember who posted it, possibly Soundmind? Or maybe that's where Soundmind got it from? I just assumed it's from the autopsy report, I guess. But I wouldn't know, because I can't and therefore won't read it. I tried, but I can't.

To me the amount of Lidocaine used would imply more Propofol was also used than is being said, also the multiple Propofol bottles found open would speak for that. Unless Murray used all that Lidocaine for something else we don't know about. We usually use one 5 ml Lidocaine bottle for one 50ml Propofol bottle. If you use 2,5 ml of Propofol, you only need a DROP of lidocaine.....which is why I don't understand why all those Lidocaine bottles were open....

Yes, the 3 lidocaine vials were one of the first things that I found suspicious, that's what one of the EMT's said:

"Also he sees bottles on the floor and bottles of lidocaine."

And later they found those 2 empty and 1 open vials. Which makes it less likely that 2 were from the days before maybe and were just still in the room, if what the EMT said (bottles, not bottle) is true and they were still on the floor when they entered the room, then I don't think they were from the last couple of days, but from that night.
 
http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf


tissues of a 37-year-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self-administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12.3–15.4 times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia) were determined by headspace gas chromatography. The blood (femoral), liver, kidney and brain propofol levels were 2.5 μg/ml, 22 μg/g, 3.6 μg/g and 11.3 μg/g, respectively. The blood propofol level in the present case is 11.4 times and the liver propofol level is 15.7 times that of the first propofol overdose reported in the literature.

(ug/ml=ug/g)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6W-4C35Y8T-F0&_user=10&_coverDate=05%2F25%2F1994&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=905864fe2876243d64acce98dea57e56&searchtype=a
 
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so are you posting that link because you are trying to prove that someone CAN give themselves propofol?
 
Anyone can self inject propofol. The thing is even if Michael gave himself propitious he could never give himself the amount he had in him in one shot
 
That's why I sent you yesterday a private message asking you whether lidocaine could be used to sedate someone.


Lidocaine given intravascularly has a great potential of systemic toxicity with very serious side-effects. Sedation will be one of the side-effects but that will not be the aim of administering lidocaine intravascularly. It can't be used as a sedative because of the many toxic effects to the central nervous system and the cardiovascular system. If Murray was using it as a sedative, Michael will be feeling very ill with a whole host of symptoms.
 
Soundmind;3184173 said:
http://www.drjunge.de/pdf/propofol_03.eng_web.pdf


tissues of a 37-year-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self-administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12.3–15.4 times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia) were determined by headspace gas chromatography. The blood (femoral), liver, kidney and brain propofol levels were 2.5 μg/ml, 22 μg/g, 3.6 μg/g and 11.3 μg/g, respectively. The blood propofol level in the present case is 11.4 times and the liver propofol level is 15.7 times that of the first propofol overdose reported in the literature.

(ug/ml=ug/g)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...905864fe2876243d64acce98dea57e56&searchtype=a


So can you yourself actually explain the findings and the levels and their significance and what is meant in that post and what their relevance exactly is to the MJ case, or are you just posting levels that you found in articles that you googled....Just to be specific with my question about your medical background and how you conclude MJ got less than 200mg Propofol? :scratch:
 
yes I can :)

That what was written in the study:

Discussion :

In order to assess the relevancy of the measured propofol blood concentrations of this case they were compared to two fatal cases of propofol abuse reported in literature
.

the first case: a male nurse who injected himself rapidly , 11 ampules of 20ml propofol emulsion must have been taken (2200mg propofol)

Blood : 5.3 ( cumulative effect was 1 ug/ml because of previous injections) , Liver: 27, Urine: 5.4

The second case: concerned a female radiographer who was said to have abused propofol for a prolonged period of time
Blood : 0.22 ( a long survival time) , Liver: 1.4, Urine :5.4

The third case: the suicide of a medical doctor who used two hypodemic needles in the back of his hand for an infusion of propofol.

Blood : 2.5 ( shorter survival time than the previous case) Liver: 22, Urine : N.D

The the fourth case : a 37-year-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self-administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12.3–15.4 times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia)

Blood( femoral): 2.5, Liver: 22, Kidney (urine): 3.6.

MJ : Blood ( hospital) :4.1, Femoral : 2.4, Liver: 6.2 , Uirne 0.15 , Urine at the scene: 0.10



The first case (2200mg): at autopsy the bladder contained 250ml/h assuming a urine production of 40/50ml/h the bladder contents would have been produced within 6 hours and therefor would have been at least 12 injections of one ampule each within this time period.

MJ's case, the bladder contained (540ml) going by a production of 40/50ml/h , that amount was produced in 10 to 11 hours. So In the 10 to 11 hours before his death he received propofol, how much propofol?

If someone received 2200mg of propofol , had 250ml urine in his blader and propofol concentration of 5.4.
How much propofol did MJ recieve if his bladder contained 540ml urine and propofol concentration of 0.10 ?

Give me an estimation.

Notice, also in the case of the suicide, propofol was not detected in urine. So if MJ only received the injection that killed him, no propofol would have been detected in his urine . He must have received a VERY SMALL dose sometime during the last 10 hours, that's why I said he only induced sleep and then switched to other sedatives.




Is it clear now why I said MJ must have received less than 200mg that day ?

Read and compare. in order to assess you have to compare . Notice the blood concentrations were not an indication of how much they received. They could only determine how long survived after being injected.

As for the urine. Again four cases to compare , read the description of each one and the results and compare you will come to the same conclusion , he could have never received anything exceeding 200mg that day.
 
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Guys

As far as the medical related discussion goes please understand that not all of us are knowledgeable in that area and therefore some posts could easily be misunderstood -or even not be understood at all. So please to avoid confusion make sure that you explain in layman terms or at least add a little explanation in regards to what you said.

Does anyone know the potential roster of witnesses when court resumes tomorrow? (Monday)

as the coroner investigator took the stand , I'll logically expect the coroner and/or the doctor who made the propofol determination take the stand as well.

and I heard that (was it justice4mj ustream- sorry can't remember) that prosecutors said they had witnesses flying in?
If true it can be
- detectives from houston /las vegas that raided Murray's offices - if they found something
- Murray's office assistants - if he asked them hide / remove stuff
- las vegas pharmacy - if they have any information

of course the above is just speculation on my part.
 
yeah i see your post soundmind but the som of the amount of the urine to the amount of what is given i dont see.. i just see you post other cases with higher amounts in both

ho do you calculate it?
 
Guys

As far as the medical related discussion goes please understand that not all of us are knowledgeable in that area and therefore some posts could easily be misunderstood -or even not be understood at all. So please to avoid confusion make sure that you explain in layman terms or at least add a little explanation in regards to what you said.

as the coroner investigator took the stand , I'll logically expect the coroner and/or the doctor who made the propofol determination take the stand as well.

and I heard that (was it justice4mj ustream- sorry can't remember) that prosecutors said they had witnesses flying in?
If true it can be
- detectives from houston /las vegas that raided Murray's offices - if they found something
- Murray's office assistants - if he asked them hide / remove stuff
- las vegas pharmacy - if they have any information

of course the above is just speculation on my part.

Thanks! That's EXCELLENT, if the office assistants will be testifying!
 
and I heard that (was it justice4mj ustream- sorry can't remember) that prosecutors said they had witnesses flying in?
If true it can be
- detectives from houston /las vegas that raided Murray's offices - if they found something
- Murray's office assistants - if he asked them hide / remove stuff
- las vegas pharmacy - if they have any information

of course the above is just speculation on my part.

Please let this be true!!! :pray:
 
I would think it's the office assistants in Houston since Murray called them when either MJ was dead or heavily sedated.
 
I would think it's the office assistants in Houston since Murray called them when either MJ was dead or heavily sedated.

Exactly. Phone records would show the time of the call, and they'd have to testify about his request, i.e. to remove items. They could also tell whether or not he sounded urgent, or calm, or what, and about any background sounds (coughing?) I'm hoping that piece-by-piece, an accurate timeline will develop?
 
God this is too much really , I can't stand ignorance.

Summer asked for a link and I provided one. That was not for someone like you, that was for people who search and educate themselves.

That was for people who want to know why MJ recieved less than 200mg of propofol that day , that was to make comparisons with other deaths caused by propofol.

That was why I always said there is no way the coroner would have ruled it a homicide if propofol was given as an IV drip. They ruled out the IV drip FIRST inorder to reach the conclusion INJECTION BY ANOTHER.

If you don't understand what I post ask me POLITLEY and I'll answer you POLITELY.

You have no right to come here and accuse me of saying MJ was an addict when I dedicated hours to search for evidence to impeach Randy Jackson and Janet's interventions stories and got banned for ruthlessly going after them.


ask Justthefacts and elusive who was the first to raise the LORAZEPAM issue on this board and others , that was IMMEDIATLEY after the toxicology results were released.

ask her who was here dedicating hours to counter all the theories that Murray was using an IV drip , why? because if any evidence suggested an infusion , an IV drip , Murray's defence would be able to say MJ did it.

Do you understand that?

Yes, I remember you spending many hours countering all the theories when the autopsy report came out. In fact, I learned much from you. I think they are asking that you do not go too deeply into the theory that Murray wanted to have Michael addicted, because people who are not looking at the case in a holistic manner will run with the story that Michael is an addict. However, I like the way you are giving your facts to back up your theories, and maybe we can move on to the other points from the testimony. I look forward to you analyzing other aspects.
 
and who was the one coughing then? I thought we all agreed on this issue, that MJ was well until then?

Thank you Petrarose.

I apologize if I come across as rude or want to force my opinion on others. But I get mad when people start to say I'm trying to help the defence. When I joined MJJF & KOP at 2002, I did it with the intention to help Murray in 2010, right?:smilerolleyes:
 
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lol soundmind i think your mind is anything BUT sound. I dont believe Michael did anything to himself and i cant believe anyone would suggest it.

"I Love Life To Much"
 
Yes, I remember you spending many hours countering all the theories when the autopsy report came out. In fact, I learned much from you. I think they are asking that you do not go too deeply into the theory that Murray wanted to have Michael addicted, because people who are not looking at the case in a holistic manner will run with the story that Michael is an addict.

Exactly! Journalists read at MJJC, and we should be very careful. When Soundmind wrote: @font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } The hair samples will show increasing benzos dependancy in the last two months of his life. Murray will claim MJ was taking his pills and he only gave him lorazepam the last two days," the word "dependency" can be interchangeably understood as "addicted!" So if Soundmind could tell us if she (he? don't know. Sorry!) has a different clinical meaning for the words "benzos dependency?" So we can all be on the same page? And also, "taking his pills" can be miscontstrued as . . . he was taking the benzos on his own, and as was said above, that was a "dependency." So yeah, we should all be careful and on the same page.

But, we don't know WHAT the hair samples will show. Do we? That info has not been released to the public (was not done at the time of the autopsy.)

Soundmind wrote: @font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } "That was for people who want to know why MJ recieved less than 200mg of propofol that day , that was to make comparisons with other deaths caused by propofol."

I don't recall that being in the autopsy report, about how much he received. I mean, given how fast it leaves the body, and not knowing the exact time of death, I'm not sure how they could know that with any accuracy at all? So maybe help us out by quoting that passage in the autopsy report? Would be much appreciated.

However, I like the way you are giving your facts to back up your theories, and maybe we can move on to the other points from the testimony. I look forward to you analyzing other aspects.

By all means, let's have analysis of other aspects. Tomorrow is a new day.
 
I dont think MJ was well until then...we know about the 19th Michael was sent home by Kenny then..the 20th..the big meeting happened....the 21st fathers day..the call to Nurse Lee..if Michael was well on the 21st he never would of had a call put through to her...then he was better on the 23 and 24th....he died an the 25th..to me that shows a pattern...other than the 23 and 24th Michael was not well those last few days. Obviously something was different those two days..Murray knows what...and hopefully we will all know.
 
Hey guys i heard that murray is gonna try and get lisa marie to be one of his witness...is this true??
 
Hey guys i heard that murray is gonna try and get lisa marie to be one of his witness...is this true??

doubt it... she hadn't seen MJ since 1999. I wouldn't be surprised if Murray tries to get Janet, Randy, Oxman and Rowe to testify though.
 
Hey guys i heard that murray is gonna try and get lisa marie to be one of his witness...is this true??
Really???.....I wonder if that is just rumor...if it is true...I dont think she would..do you?....But then again she would have to if she was subpoenad.
 
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