Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

I dont think MJ was well until then...we know about the 19th Michael was sent home by Kenny then..the 20th..the big meeting happened....the 21st fathers day..the call to Nurse Lee..if Michael was well on the 21st he never would of had a call put through to her...then he was better on the 23 and 24th....he died an the 25th..to me that shows a pattern...other than the 23 and 24th Michael was not well those last few days. Obviously something was different those two days..Murray knows what...and hopefully we will all know.

According to Murray's interview to the cops, he didn't give MJ propofol on the 23rd or the 24th. He tried some other cocktail for sleep and he was trying to wean MJ from the propofol. So in other words if this is true, the propofol was poisening MJ and making him sick. It was affecting his central nervous system as Nurse Lee had said. Murray should've noticed this and stopped giving it to him but instead he kept giving it to him and killed him.
 
Very doubtful. I mean, WHY? She was no part of this.

exactly and what she said means nothing because she wasn't around him.

Murray bought and administered to the propofol to MJ, that has nothing to do with anyone else.
 
doubt it... she hadn't seen MJ since 1999. I wouldn't be surprised if Murray tries to get Janet, Randy, Oxman and Rowe to testify though.



If he gets randy & janet to testify on as his witness's im gonna be so pissed of!
 
According to Murray's interview to the cops, he didn't give MJ propofol on the 23rd or the 24th. He tried some other cocktail for sleep and he was trying to wean MJ from the propofol. So in other words if this is true, the propofol was poisening MJ and making him sick. It was affecting his central nervous system as Nurse Lee had said. Murray should've noticed this and stopped giving it to him but instead he kept giving it to him and killed him.
yes..I agree..:)
 
Really???.....I wonder if that is just rumor...if it is true...I dont think she would..do you?....But then again she would have to if she was subpoenad.


The thing is with lisa marie you just never know. That woman changes her mind bout michael like a yo yo , u can never know with her.


I just hope she stays out of this mess as it really has nothing 2 do with her
 
According to Murray's interview to the cops, he didn't give MJ propofol on the 23rd or the 24th. He tried some other cocktail for sleep and he was trying to wean MJ from the propofol. So in other words if this is true, the propofol was poisening MJ and making him sick. It was affecting his central nervous system as Nurse Lee had said. Murray should've noticed this and stopped giving it to him but instead he kept giving it to him and killed him.

That seems VERY likely. There would have been no withdrawal from the propofol because it's not physically addictive, like the benzos. So that seems a likely scenario.
 
If he gets randy & janet to testify on as his witness's im gonna be so pissed of!

I'm pretty sure they won't be, but the fact that they threw MJ under the bus talking about crap that had nothing to do with how he died and who killed him, makes them potential witnesses for Murray's defense.

They all knew Murray had been arrested and charged with MJ's death, yet they kept talking about interventions and addiction and other crap. If they are called to testify, it is their own fault.
 
the only problem they found 450ml urine at the scene which contained propofol. Do you believe that was left there for three days ?

likely? yeah sure
 
noway urine with meds in it left for any long period of time would stink from here to high heaven.
 
I'm pretty sure they won't be, but the fact that they threw MJ under the bus talking about crap that had nothing to do with how he died and who killed him, makes them potential witnesses for Murray's defense.

They all knew Murray had been arrested and charged with MJ's death, yet they kept talking about interventions and addiction and other crap. If they are called to testify, it is their own fault.


I know i remember watching a interview with janet and shes going on & on bout interventions and im like :WTF!!!?? is she serious?
 
I see that a witness was asked if Michael had any chest pain & Murray said no. But on June 24, I think we read/hear reports saying that Marlon said he heard Michael had had chest pains & asked to go to hospital, but Murray discouraged him. I hope this will be investigated.
 
and who was the one coughing then? I thought we all agreed on this issue, that MJ was well until then?

We have NO idea, yet, who was coughing. That comes from the phone call from Murray to his girlfriend, who just testified that she heard "coughing" in the background. Could have been Michael in distress, or could have been another person there somehow (not likely), or random noise? So maybe Murray's assistants testimony will shed some light?

We do NOT know the state of Michael's health. There have been varying reports, including by Kenny Ortega who sent him home that day.

(edit)
 
Soundmind;3184247 said:
yes I can :)

That what was written in the study:

Discussion :

.

the first case: a male nurse who injected himself rapidly , 11 ampules of 20ml propofol emulsion must have been taken (2200mg propofol)

Blood : 5.3 ( cumulative effect was 1 ug/ml because of previous injections) , Liver: 27, Urine: 5.4

The second case: concerned a female radiographer who was said to have abused propofol for a prolonged period of time
Blood : 0.22 ( a long survival time) , Liver: 1.4, Urine :5.4

The third case: the suicide of a medical doctor who used two hypodemic needles in the back of his hand for an infusion of propofol.

Blood : 2.5 ( shorter survival time than the previous case) Liver: 22, Urine : N.D

The the fourth case : a 37-year-old Chinese male suspected of having fatally self-administered an intravenous dose of 1600 mg of propofol (12.3–15.4 times the dose required for the induction of anaesthesia)

Blood( femoral): 2.5, Liver: 22, Kidney (urine): 3.6.

MJ : Blood ( hospital) :4.1, Femoral : 2.4, Liver: 6.2 , Uirne 0.15 , Urine at the scene: 0.10



The first case (2200mg): at autopsy the bladder contained 250ml/h assuming a urine production of 40/50ml/h the bladder contents would have been produced within 6 hours and therefor would have been at least 12 injections of one ampule each within this time period.

MJ's case, the bladder contained (540ml) going by a production of 40/50ml/h , that amount was produced in 10 to 11 hours. So In the 10 to 11 hours before his death he received propofol, how much propofol?

If someone received 2200mg of propofol , had 250ml urine in his blader and propofol concentration of 5.4.
How much propofol did MJ recieve if his bladder contained 540ml urine and propofol concentration of 0.10 ?

Give me an estimation.

Notice, also in the case of the suicide, propofol was not detected in urine. So if MJ only received the injection that killed him, no propofol would have been detected in his urine . He must have received a VERY SMALL dose sometime during the last 10 hours, that's why I said he only induced sleep and then switched to other sedatives.




Is it clear now why I said MJ must have received less than 200mg that day ?

Read and compare. in order to assess you have to compare . Notice the blood concentrations were not an indication of how much they received. They could only determine how long survived after being injected.

As for the urine. Again four cases to compare , read the description of each one and the results and compare you will come to the same conclusion , he could have never received anything exceeding 200mg that day.


In order to be able to asses you have to have EXPERTISE in biochemistry and pharmacology before you start comparing anything. So once again, I simply wanna know your medical background. Are you a doctor....a biochemist...did you study pharmacology? It should not be that difficult to answer, and why are you being so evasive about it if you are one of those three? Not like there is something to be ashamed about. If you do not have that medical backround, then let's leave the levels to the experts okay.
 
I see that a witness was asked if Michael had any chest pain & Murray said no. But on June 24, I think we read/hear reports saying that Marlon said he heard Michael had had chest pains & asked to go to hospital, but Murray discouraged him. I hope this will be investigated.


:eek: omg if that is true..that pig of a doctor then again he doesnt even deserve to be called a doctor!
 
No, I'm not any of the three you mentioned. I'm studying IT. You don't need experts to tell you he did not receive anything exceeding 200. The cases are all over the Internet with details.

You only need to read and comprehend how they came to conclusions.
 
Yeah, it's something we talked about early on in June 2009 & Frank Dileo wasn't able clear that up in his interview w/this MJJC. It would be good to know once & for all if this was true.
 
I see that a witness was asked if Michael had any chest pain & Murray said no. But on June 24, I think we read/hear reports saying that Marlon said he heard Michael had had chest pains & asked to go to hospital, but Murray discouraged him. I hope this will be investigated.
yes this needs to be investigated to...it should NOT be let go...I wonder if the DA looks into these obvious things...as a professional I cannot see how they dont look into these things.
 
I see that a witness was asked if Michael had any chest pain & Murray said no. But on June 24, I think we read/hear reports saying that Marlon said he heard Michael had had chest pains & asked to go to hospital, but Murray discouraged him. I hope this will be investigated.

June 24? Guys do you remember that in the This Is It movie, they showed Michael looking at the monitors when they were reviewing the new videos for the show, and there was a monitor showing the date of the footage? The date was about 2 days before his death. I am trying to remember the date on the monitor. I think it was the 24, but it was twenty something. The footage shows Michael looking at the video and Michael is looking alert and in good shape. I do not know if we could see these tiny details now on a TII dvd, but I know looking at it on the big screen at the movies the dates showed up. I remember someone else mentioned the date on MJ official website as well, so some of you might have seen it also. What I am getting at is that days before his death he seemed to be in good shape, and there should be video proof to show how he was acting. Of course the video would not show what was inside of him.
 
I agree with Summer, in that I believe it would take a highly trained medical professional to come to any definitive conclusion as to how much propofol was administered that day. I'm sure there will be medical experts who testify at the trial about that, for both prosecution and defense. They may not agree. (probably WON'T agree). The levels shown in Michael's body are dependent other variables, too, such as how much time had elapsed since death at the time samples were taken, interactions with other medications Murray said he gave and were detected, and other factors such as how much Michael had eaten and when (rate of absorption might be affected).

So, medical professionals or not, for that information, we can only go so far, and no farther, and certainly not with any provable accuracy.
 
No, I'm not any of the three you mentioned. I'm studying IT. You don't need experts to tell you he did not receive anything exceeding 200. The cases are all over the Internet with details.

You only need to read and comprehend how they came to conclusions.

Right. :mello: Whatever. :mello: I love people who have no medical background but act like experts. Always love them at the hospital too especially when they try to tell us how to take care of patients because they read "this and that" in the internet, so of course they know everything better than us. After all...we only went to nursing school or medical school and have years of experience...but they researched in the INTERNET...so...of course they are smarter and know everything better than we do. Don't mind me. I'm only a RN....Carry on then. :mello:
 
Why in the world didn't anyone take MJ to the hospital? Why couldn't they figure out Murray was poisening MJ? If MJ was fine and alert from the beginning but started to lose weight drastically, and started getting sick, complaining of being hot and cold then someone should've put two and two together.

I really wish MJ had someone looking after him. I wish Mike would've fired Murray. Who kept allowing this incompetent fool near MJ?
 
Right. :mello: Whatever. :mello: I love people who have no medical background but act like experts. Always love them at the hospital too especially when they try to tell us how to take care of patients because they read "this and that" in the internet, so of course they know everything better than us. After all...we only went to nursing school or medical school and have years of experience...but they researched in the INTERNET...so...of course they are smarter and know everything better than we do. Don't mind me. I'm only a RN....Carry on then. :mello:

Summer,

I wish MJ would've hired you. Murray obviously didn't care about MJ's well-being at all
 
Greedy selfish ppl who didnt give a :censored: bout mj

yup!!! Mike started deteriorating as soon as Murray started his 'treatments'. If Kenny Ortega sensed something wasn't right, Kenny should've taken MJ to the hospital himself. Did anyone talk to Mike's assistant Michael Amir? did Michael Amir know MJ was sick?
 
I remember too hearing that Marlon said Michael had told him he wasn't feeling well but I can't remember when it was. If every time Michael said he wasn't feeling well and Murray kept saying he was fine then I hope that is looked at too.

I have to say if this okay that I feel like reading all the medical talk I feel like I am in some class and I don't understand. It's too technical. Looking at some of these drugs it's hard enough to pronounce let alone understand how they work.
 
Summer,

I wish MJ would've hired you. Murray obviously didn't care about MJ's well-being at all

Thanks, except he would have never been able to hire me to give him Propofol. If he would have askd me to do it, I would have tied him into his bed until he promised me he WON'T let ANYONE give him that for any other reason than if he truly needed it in the OR or needed to be sedated for a procedure...and unless there was a TRAINED ANESTHESIOLOGIST there to monitor him. I so wish I could have been there the day he died though.. It tears my heart into million pieces to know I could have saved him, had I only been able to be THERE. :boohoo: :boohoo:
 
yup!!! Mike started deteriorating as soon as Murray started his 'treatments'. If Kenny Ortega sensed something wasn't right, Kenny should've taken MJ to the hospital himself. Did anyone talk to Mike's assistant Michael Amir? did Michael Amir know MJ was sick?

Thats what i dont understand ..why didnt kenny take mj to the hospital himself??

I mean i always thought him & mj as very close dear friends and i cant for the life of me comprehend kenny not dointg anything bout it.
 
I remember too hearing that Marlon said Michael had told him he wasn't feeling well but I can't remember when it was. If every time Michael said he wasn't feeling well and Murray kept saying he was fine then I hope that is looked at too.

I have to say if this okay that I feel like reading all the medical talk I feel like I am in some class and I don't understand. It's too technical. Looking at some of these drugs it's hard enough to pronounce let alone understand how they work.

Look, Summer is an RN, and I have a Ph.D.,and it's too technical for US! There will be expert testimony at the trial, NO doubt. There is no possible way to come to any pharmacological conclusions here, about how much propofol was administered, and we really are going to have to wait for the trial to get enough info to make any judgments on that.

Yes, I remember that Marlon said that. I hope ALL that is looked into, very carefully.
 
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