Justthefacts
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The tox screen alone will sink Murray
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Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread
- Thread starter TheChosenOne
- Start date
Been thinking about that too. What's with all the stuff lying all over the floor? The vials, etc.? Is that normal? What about hygiene?
xthunderx2
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these tweets make me sick..how can a broke guy afford a PR team?? Someone is paying for his defense..I doubt they are doing it probono...after all wasn't there an article saying that he was trying to find out if his insurance would cover his attorney expenses? These people are gonna wanna get paid.
Petrarose
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You do not know how much I am waiting for that testimony to come out in the trial. i think when the coroner and expert doctors testify, I will have to go to LA and hang around the courthouse. I do not think I could remain in New York. The jubilation will be too great, and I am bringing a case of wine!
Michael Jackson begged for propofol, detective says in recapping Conrad Murray's statement
The doctor said he had weaned Jackson off the drug but felt 'pressured' to administer it again.
Dr. Conrad Murray told detectives that Michael Jackson begged him for propofol on the day he died, saying his long-awaited comeback would never happen if the physician didn't put him to sleep with the drug he called "milk," according to court testimony Monday.
A homicide investigator said Murray described himself as "pressured" into administering the surgical anesthetic despite concerns that the 50-year-old music legend had become addicted as he prepared for a series of concerts in London.
"Mr. Jackson began to complain to him that he couldn't sleep and that he would have to cancel his rehearsals and cancel his shows," Los Angeles police detective Orlando Martinez said in Los Angeles County Superior Court.
Prosecutors summoned Martinez to the witness stand as they headed into the home stretch of a hearing to determine whether they have enough evidence to try Murray, 57, for involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's June 25, 2009, death from an overdose of propofol. The prosecution is expected to wrap up its presentation later this week.
Murray has pleaded not guilty.
The broad strokes of Murray's account to police — including his claim that he was in the restroom when Jackson stopped breathing — have already been made public, but the detective's testimony added additional details, such as the doctor's explanation for not calling for an ambulance immediately.
"He said he was caring for his patient and did not want to neglect him," Martinez said.
"Did he indicate that calling for a 911 operator would be neglecting him?" asked Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren.
"Yes," the detective said.
Murray, a cardiologist, has been criticized for trying to perform CPR while Jackson was in the bed; Martinez said that when he asked the doctor about it, Murray claimed he wasn't able to move Jackson to the floor.
The testimony drew snorts from a contingent of Jackson fans in the spectator's gallery. Martinez noted that the strapping physician, who stands 6 feet, 5 inches, outweighed the emaciated singer by 90 pounds.
Murray walked away from the hospital where Jackson was pronounced dead before homicide detectives had a chance to interview him, but two days later, he and two lawyers met with investigators in a Marina del Rey hotel.
Murray told them that he had been giving Jackson propofol to sleep for two months but had weaned him off it two days before his death, with the singer's permission. He said that on the day Jackson died, he tried to get him to sleep with a series of other sedatives and by encouraging his patient to try "meditating" but that ultimately Jackson insisted on propofol.
The doctor gave a timeline that appears an hour off from the chronology prosecutors have established with phone records and other witness accounts, according to Martinez's testimony.
The detectives said Murray recalled sitting with Jackson until about 11 a.m., then leaving for two minutes to use the restroom. He said that when he returned he was "stunned" to find that Jackson was not breathing. Other witness testimony and cellphone records indicate that Murray made his discovery at noon.
Under cross-examination, the detective acknowledged that the physician told him Jackson had concealed his long history of using propofol with other doctors when he hired Murray.
"Dr. Murray said to you that he didn't sign up for this, that he found out about Michael Jackson's desire for propofol after the fact?" asked defense lawyer Ed Chernoff.
"Correct," Martinez replied.
Judge Michael Pastor also heard testimony from the owner of a Las Vegas pharmacy that filled Murray's phone orders for propofol. Pharmacist Tim Lopez said Murray never mentioned that the pop star was his only patient at the time and instead led him to believe the 255 vials of propofol he requested were being used for patients at a Los Angeles clinic.
In reality, the four shipments Murray placed, including a final order 10 days before Jackson's death, went to the Santa Monica apartment where Murray's mistress and infant son lived. Lopez said that when he volunteered to personally deliver an order during a trip to Los Angeles, Murray told him not to.
"He said just FedEx it the way we normally do," Lopez recalled.
If convicted, Murray faces up to four years in prison.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110111,0,3455010.story
The doctor said he had weaned Jackson off the drug but felt 'pressured' to administer it again.
Dr. Conrad Murray told detectives that Michael Jackson begged him for propofol on the day he died, saying his long-awaited comeback would never happen if the physician didn't put him to sleep with the drug he called "milk," according to court testimony Monday.
A homicide investigator said Murray described himself as "pressured" into administering the surgical anesthetic despite concerns that the 50-year-old music legend had become addicted as he prepared for a series of concerts in London.
"Mr. Jackson began to complain to him that he couldn't sleep and that he would have to cancel his rehearsals and cancel his shows," Los Angeles police detective Orlando Martinez said in Los Angeles County Superior Court.
Prosecutors summoned Martinez to the witness stand as they headed into the home stretch of a hearing to determine whether they have enough evidence to try Murray, 57, for involuntary manslaughter in the pop star's June 25, 2009, death from an overdose of propofol. The prosecution is expected to wrap up its presentation later this week.
Murray has pleaded not guilty.
The broad strokes of Murray's account to police — including his claim that he was in the restroom when Jackson stopped breathing — have already been made public, but the detective's testimony added additional details, such as the doctor's explanation for not calling for an ambulance immediately.
"He said he was caring for his patient and did not want to neglect him," Martinez said.
"Did he indicate that calling for a 911 operator would be neglecting him?" asked Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren.
"Yes," the detective said.
Murray, a cardiologist, has been criticized for trying to perform CPR while Jackson was in the bed; Martinez said that when he asked the doctor about it, Murray claimed he wasn't able to move Jackson to the floor.
The testimony drew snorts from a contingent of Jackson fans in the spectator's gallery. Martinez noted that the strapping physician, who stands 6 feet, 5 inches, outweighed the emaciated singer by 90 pounds.
Murray walked away from the hospital where Jackson was pronounced dead before homicide detectives had a chance to interview him, but two days later, he and two lawyers met with investigators in a Marina del Rey hotel.
Murray told them that he had been giving Jackson propofol to sleep for two months but had weaned him off it two days before his death, with the singer's permission. He said that on the day Jackson died, he tried to get him to sleep with a series of other sedatives and by encouraging his patient to try "meditating" but that ultimately Jackson insisted on propofol.
The doctor gave a timeline that appears an hour off from the chronology prosecutors have established with phone records and other witness accounts, according to Martinez's testimony.
The detectives said Murray recalled sitting with Jackson until about 11 a.m., then leaving for two minutes to use the restroom. He said that when he returned he was "stunned" to find that Jackson was not breathing. Other witness testimony and cellphone records indicate that Murray made his discovery at noon.
Under cross-examination, the detective acknowledged that the physician told him Jackson had concealed his long history of using propofol with other doctors when he hired Murray.
"Dr. Murray said to you that he didn't sign up for this, that he found out about Michael Jackson's desire for propofol after the fact?" asked defense lawyer Ed Chernoff.
"Correct," Martinez replied.
Judge Michael Pastor also heard testimony from the owner of a Las Vegas pharmacy that filled Murray's phone orders for propofol. Pharmacist Tim Lopez said Murray never mentioned that the pop star was his only patient at the time and instead led him to believe the 255 vials of propofol he requested were being used for patients at a Los Angeles clinic.
In reality, the four shipments Murray placed, including a final order 10 days before Jackson's death, went to the Santa Monica apartment where Murray's mistress and infant son lived. Lopez said that when he volunteered to personally deliver an order during a trip to Los Angeles, Murray told him not to.
"He said just FedEx it the way we normally do," Lopez recalled.
If convicted, Murray faces up to four years in prison.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110111,0,3455010.story
ScrEAm.Jack5on
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YES, I could not give a c*@p about when he had 'the most 'star power''. partly I blame the media for dehumanizing him, the other part is her own ignorant attitude.
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Justthefacts
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If he did not know why was he ordering the stuff in March?
Detective recounts events before Jackson death
Michael Jackson, desperate for sleep, warned a doctor on the day he died that he would have to cancel his comeback concerts unless he received a dose of "his milk" — the powerful anesthetic propofol, according to testimony from the lead detective in the case against Jackson's doctor.
As a result, Dr. Conrad Murray yielded and gave the singer a dose of propofol after a night of administering lesser drugs, detective Orlando Martinez said.
Prosecutors said the combination of drugs was lethal and filed an involuntary manslaughter charge against Murray, who has pleaded not guilty.
Martinez, who interviewed Murray two days after Jackson's death, gave a chilling step-by-step account at Murray's preliminary hearing, saying the pop star lay dying while Murray administered CPR but didn't call 911.
Martinez, who spent nearly three hours interviewing Murray in the presence of his lawyers, said Murray told him he had been giving Jackson doses of propofol six nights a week for two months but was trying to wean him from the drug after becoming afraid his patient was becoming addicted.
The detective said Jackson came home from rehearsal abut 1 a.m. on June 25, 2009, showered and got into bed. Murray said he immediately connected an intravenous tube to the singer's leg and began giving him sedatives, according to Martinez.
The doctor said that began a night of continuous efforts to get the star to sleep. He told police he gave him the sedatives lorazepam and midazolam intravenously and supplied a valium pill, but nothing seemed to work.
At 3:30 a.m. he said, Jackson fell asleep for about 10 minutes but then was awake again and complaining that if he didn't get sleep he would have to cancel his much-anticipated "This is It" tour, the detective said.
Murray spoke of feeling pressure to get Jackson to sleep and sometime between 10:40 a.m. and 10:50 a.m. gave him half his usual 50 milligram dose of propofol, Martinez said.
"It was an injection to get him to sleep and a slow drip to keep him sleeping," the detective said.
He said Jackson fell asleep about 11 a.m. and Murray felt comfortable enough to leave the room and go to the bathroom. He told the detective he was out of the room for two minutes and "was stunned to see Mr. Jackson not breathing" when he returned.
Murray told police he started CPR through chest compressions then gave mouth-to-mouth resuscitation but did not consider calling 911.
"He said he was caring for his patient and did not want to neglect him," Martinez said.
He said Murray also was asked why he was giving Jackson CPR on a soft bed rather than moving Jackson to the floor.
"Dr. Murray said he could not move him to the floor by himself," the witness said.
Deputy District Attorney David Walgren pointed out that Murray is 6 feet 5 inches and weighs about 225 pounds. The frail Jackson weighed about 136 pounds when he died.
Phone records show 911 was not called until 12:21 p.m., and prosecutors contend the singer was dead before help arrived.
Murray's attorney Ed Chernoff asked Martinez if Murray had spoken of Jackson asking to self-administer propofol. He answered yes.
"Mr. Jackson knew all about propofol before Dr. Murray came on the scene?" asked Chernoff.
"Yes," said Martinez.
The detective was asked if Jackson had sought to "push the propofol" himself and he said that was correct.
"Michael Jackson told Dr. Murray he liked to push it in himself and other doctors let him do that?" Chernoff asked.
"Yes," sad the witness.
"And Dr. Murray said he wouldn't let him do that?" Chernoff asked.
"Correct," answered the witness.
Defense lawyers have presented little evidence during the hearing to decide if Murray should stand trial. Prosecutors have said they believe the defense will contend Jackson administered more propofol himself on the fateful day, leading to his death.
Earlier testimony by a pharmacist showed Murray purchased 255 vials of propofol during the three months before the singer died.
Murray bought 130 vials of propofol in 100-milliliter doses and another 125 vials in the smaller dose of 20 milliliters, said Tim Lopez, owner of Applied Pharmacy Services in Las Vegas, where Murray has a clinic.
The four shipments of propofol were purchased between April 6 and June 10, 2009, with most of the drugs shipped to the Santa Monica home of Murray's girlfriend, testimony showed.
Murray also purchased sedatives known as benzodiazpines, Lopez testified.
Using phone records and testimony from police and Murray's current and former girlfriends, prosecutors tried to show Murray was on the phone throughout the morning of Jackson's death, even after administering propofol to the singer.
They hope to convince a judge of several key points: that Murray was distracted when he should have been monitoring Jackson, that he delayed calling 911, that he botched CPR efforts and that the singer was dead before help was summoned.
Murray could face up to four years in prison if tried and convicted.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7375301.html
Michael Jackson, desperate for sleep, warned a doctor on the day he died that he would have to cancel his comeback concerts unless he received a dose of "his milk" — the powerful anesthetic propofol, according to testimony from the lead detective in the case against Jackson's doctor.
As a result, Dr. Conrad Murray yielded and gave the singer a dose of propofol after a night of administering lesser drugs, detective Orlando Martinez said.
Prosecutors said the combination of drugs was lethal and filed an involuntary manslaughter charge against Murray, who has pleaded not guilty.
Martinez, who interviewed Murray two days after Jackson's death, gave a chilling step-by-step account at Murray's preliminary hearing, saying the pop star lay dying while Murray administered CPR but didn't call 911.
Martinez, who spent nearly three hours interviewing Murray in the presence of his lawyers, said Murray told him he had been giving Jackson doses of propofol six nights a week for two months but was trying to wean him from the drug after becoming afraid his patient was becoming addicted.
The detective said Jackson came home from rehearsal abut 1 a.m. on June 25, 2009, showered and got into bed. Murray said he immediately connected an intravenous tube to the singer's leg and began giving him sedatives, according to Martinez.
The doctor said that began a night of continuous efforts to get the star to sleep. He told police he gave him the sedatives lorazepam and midazolam intravenously and supplied a valium pill, but nothing seemed to work.
At 3:30 a.m. he said, Jackson fell asleep for about 10 minutes but then was awake again and complaining that if he didn't get sleep he would have to cancel his much-anticipated "This is It" tour, the detective said.
Murray spoke of feeling pressure to get Jackson to sleep and sometime between 10:40 a.m. and 10:50 a.m. gave him half his usual 50 milligram dose of propofol, Martinez said.
"It was an injection to get him to sleep and a slow drip to keep him sleeping," the detective said.
He said Jackson fell asleep about 11 a.m. and Murray felt comfortable enough to leave the room and go to the bathroom. He told the detective he was out of the room for two minutes and "was stunned to see Mr. Jackson not breathing" when he returned.
Murray told police he started CPR through chest compressions then gave mouth-to-mouth resuscitation but did not consider calling 911.
"He said he was caring for his patient and did not want to neglect him," Martinez said.
He said Murray also was asked why he was giving Jackson CPR on a soft bed rather than moving Jackson to the floor.
"Dr. Murray said he could not move him to the floor by himself," the witness said.
Deputy District Attorney David Walgren pointed out that Murray is 6 feet 5 inches and weighs about 225 pounds. The frail Jackson weighed about 136 pounds when he died.
Phone records show 911 was not called until 12:21 p.m., and prosecutors contend the singer was dead before help arrived.
Murray's attorney Ed Chernoff asked Martinez if Murray had spoken of Jackson asking to self-administer propofol. He answered yes.
"Mr. Jackson knew all about propofol before Dr. Murray came on the scene?" asked Chernoff.
"Yes," said Martinez.
The detective was asked if Jackson had sought to "push the propofol" himself and he said that was correct.
"Michael Jackson told Dr. Murray he liked to push it in himself and other doctors let him do that?" Chernoff asked.
"Yes," sad the witness.
"And Dr. Murray said he wouldn't let him do that?" Chernoff asked.
"Correct," answered the witness.
Defense lawyers have presented little evidence during the hearing to decide if Murray should stand trial. Prosecutors have said they believe the defense will contend Jackson administered more propofol himself on the fateful day, leading to his death.
Earlier testimony by a pharmacist showed Murray purchased 255 vials of propofol during the three months before the singer died.
Murray bought 130 vials of propofol in 100-milliliter doses and another 125 vials in the smaller dose of 20 milliliters, said Tim Lopez, owner of Applied Pharmacy Services in Las Vegas, where Murray has a clinic.
The four shipments of propofol were purchased between April 6 and June 10, 2009, with most of the drugs shipped to the Santa Monica home of Murray's girlfriend, testimony showed.
Murray also purchased sedatives known as benzodiazpines, Lopez testified.
Using phone records and testimony from police and Murray's current and former girlfriends, prosecutors tried to show Murray was on the phone throughout the morning of Jackson's death, even after administering propofol to the singer.
They hope to convince a judge of several key points: that Murray was distracted when he should have been monitoring Jackson, that he delayed calling 911, that he botched CPR efforts and that the singer was dead before help was summoned.
Murray could face up to four years in prison if tried and convicted.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7375301.html
xthunderx2
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ivy;3186003 said:
Motive..right there in my opinion....Murray didn't want to get fired....his temper got the bet of him and he killed Michael out of anger.
ScrEAm.Jack5on
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Petrarose
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ivy;3185998 said:
Now didn't Murray say before that Klien showed him how to administer propofol. Is he claiming that after he started the job (without pay) he was told he had to administer it and did not know how?
What exactly can Murray do, except find women?
Petrarose
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Exactly. You see Murray and his attorney forgot that the Proc will have several charts all over their office, connecting the timelines of purchase, conversations, dosages, time of phone conversations etc. This is how they will be trapped with all the lies. Also, Murray gave a statement that shows him as a victim at the mercy of a man begging for P because he could not cancel a rehearsal. Sadly, people out there will buy this.
xthunderx2
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yes..I too heard that Kien showed Murray how to administer propofol...so yes..he knew how...another one of his lies.
when was the supposed meeting with Dr. Adams? anyone remember?
edited : apparently it was between March and April 09.
Justthefacts
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March
I wanted to post the below quote from Trials and Tribulations written by KZ - a practicing nurse anesthetist
If MJ had consumed a portion of propofol orally close to his time of death, it would have been visually noted in the gastric fluid recovered, or in the duodenal contents. The ME would have recorded "white liquid" or something like that, in the narration of stomach contents. Instead, the narration says "70g of DARK fluid." (My emphasis.) Remember that propofol is a lipid (fat) suspension, and the white liquid lipid portion would likely not break down until bile acids had acted upon it. So I think the oral ingestion hypothesis (ie, MJ woke up and drank some propofol) is not a very likely scenario, IMO.
If MJ had consumed a portion of propofol orally close to his time of death, it would have been visually noted in the gastric fluid recovered, or in the duodenal contents. The ME would have recorded "white liquid" or something like that, in the narration of stomach contents. Instead, the narration says "70g of DARK fluid." (My emphasis.) Remember that propofol is a lipid (fat) suspension, and the white liquid lipid portion would likely not break down until bile acids had acted upon it. So I think the oral ingestion hypothesis (ie, MJ woke up and drank some propofol) is not a very likely scenario, IMO.
Autumn II
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ivy;3186003 said:
Is this a more reliable account of the testimony?
Autumn II;3186019 said:
This is from the draft
He then said, that MJ would have to cancel his shows, cancel his rehearsals becuse he couldn’t sleep
The below is the more reliable version of the above
"Mr. Jackson began to complain to him that he couldn't sleep and that he would have to cancel his rehearsals and cancel his shows," Los Angeles police detective Orlando Martinez said in Los Angeles County Superior Court.
---------------------------------
no reliable or other mention of the second one from the drafts
MJ said. It’s 3 days out from my tour. I have to get some sleep.
--------------------------
rest are personal commentary/interpretation IMO.
Soundmind
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Middle of March meeting with Dr.Adams to discuss propofol
April 6,2009 10 single dose vials ordered ( Focus on what he told Lee)
April 12th (around easter) MJ asked Lee for the first time about propofol and whether she kew any one who would give him propofol
April 18 Metzeger at MJ's house , MJ asked him per Metzeger's attorney about propofol and whether he knew someone who would give it to him , metzeger was against the idea
April 28 lorazepam PILLS prescribed by Murray
April 28 4 boxes each 10- 1000mg propofol
April (end) 20 vials Midazolam, 20 Vials Lorazepam (liquid)
May (12) 4 boxes Propofol , 2 midazolam
May ( 15) Murray was hired
June (10) 4 boxes propofol , 2 200mg propofol
Why was MJ asking other doctors when Murray was available? or should I say Murray was already buying boxes of it?
No wonder he went after the poor woman and said she was giving him propofol .
OMG , he saw Adams administering propofol in March, he believe Lee gave propofol in April ......................................................???????????????????
DAMN DAMN DAMN , He was giving him propofol as early as April and wanted to blame it on Lee, as for ADAMS, he probably was arguing it's "safeness" and needed to through doubts over his damaging testimony????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Autumn II
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ivy;3186020 said:
Thanks. So he DID tell the detective that Michael said "cancel the shows." And not just a rehearsal. (and the quote says "rehearsals," PLURAL.)
If Michael wanted to cancel, that does NOT mean he was "weak and frail," but he was being realistic? If his sleep problems were as severe as they seem to have been, he knew what it took to put on a performance. And might have realized it would be too much. That's possible. Why not?
Petrarose
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ivy;3186020 said:
I hope the proc during trial address how drastic that measure is for missing one night's sleep. It reads: cannot sleep June 25th so I have to cancel rehearsals/shows. This seems too unMichael. This is a person who loves to please people (which I do not think was a good thing all the time.). Chris, I cannot remember his last name, was saying that one of the things he noticed was that Michael wanted to please every one and did not think of himself.
Billie_Jean09
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We can do nothing but watch listen and wait as the hearing unfolds.
The idea and concept that MJ woke up whilst Murray was out of the room and 'drank' some of the proforol, sounds to me like Murray's defense team's desperate attempt to throw shice & lies at the wall hoping it will stick!
Sounds ludicrous to me! Agree? :agree:
Watch wait and pray, for justice for MJ
The idea and concept that MJ woke up whilst Murray was out of the room and 'drank' some of the proforol, sounds to me like Murray's defense team's desperate attempt to throw shice & lies at the wall hoping it will stick!
Sounds ludicrous to me! Agree? :agree:
Watch wait and pray, for justice for MJ
Petrarose
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We can do nothing but watch listen and wait as the hearing unfolds.
The idea and concept that MJ woke up whilst Murray was out of the room and 'drank' some of the proforol, sounds to me like Murray's defense team's desperate attempt to throw shice & lies at the wall hoping it will stick!
Sounds ludicrous to me! Agree? :agree:
Watch wait and pray, for justice for MJ
We all agree with you, and Ivy gave some information from a doctor about what the autopsy would show if this took place. Look above.
Autumn II
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Yeah, we agree. No WAY Michael drank the propofol. I'm sure that won't fly in court, at all.
Petrarose
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Yes I remember that, and she got very mad with him and made a statement. I like the way you have the sequence here Soundmind.
ForeverKOP
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That was a fan thinking out loud on ustream. That's all
Yeah, I understand that, but what could have brought her to form this opinion/conclusion? Did she hear something that we didn't? How can a punishment go from 4 years in prison to community service?? I mean if he got the latter, that would be a huge slap in the face to everyone
I'll address this once and for all
- That cancel shows statement is vague for me especially due to the "3 days out of my tour". To me personally it doesn't seem like a major cancellation. - of course I might be wrong.
- Some media seems to report this as a way of "Michael pressuring Murray to give propofol" or "begging for propofol" - not so good for this case.
- Might not be so good for KJ- AEG case either. If you argue that Michael was seriously to cancel concerts then he wasn't being that much afraid of AEG or financial hardship that he might face due to cancelled shows.
- if you argue that Murray indeed gave MJ propofol to keep the shows going and to keep his job - killing Michael defeats the purpose.
- if you argue that Michael was going to fire him/fired him on the spot and Murray killed him in a heat of passion - that's murder 2. However I think it would be impossible to prove as only people in the room happens to be MJ and Murray (no witnesses) and there's no sign of argument, struggle or trauma. But this is really getting ahead of ourselves and creating our scenarios with no supporting evidence.
anyway sorry for derailing the thread a little bit.
- That cancel shows statement is vague for me especially due to the "3 days out of my tour". To me personally it doesn't seem like a major cancellation. - of course I might be wrong.
- Some media seems to report this as a way of "Michael pressuring Murray to give propofol" or "begging for propofol" - not so good for this case.
- Might not be so good for KJ- AEG case either. If you argue that Michael was seriously to cancel concerts then he wasn't being that much afraid of AEG or financial hardship that he might face due to cancelled shows.
- if you argue that Murray indeed gave MJ propofol to keep the shows going and to keep his job - killing Michael defeats the purpose.
- if you argue that Michael was going to fire him/fired him on the spot and Murray killed him in a heat of passion - that's murder 2. However I think it would be impossible to prove as only people in the room happens to be MJ and Murray (no witnesses) and there's no sign of argument, struggle or trauma. But this is really getting ahead of ourselves and creating our scenarios with no supporting evidence.
anyway sorry for derailing the thread a little bit.