Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

[christy]

TIM LOPEZ
- Murray says his patient were complaining of injection pain and asked if the pharmacy could make a topical analgesic. He indicated he wanted a lidocaine only.

There you go! Murray's possible theory of Micheal doing a self-injection just got busted!

 

[Ohood]

wait !!!!! guys !!!! are you serious !

it seems that some of you begin to belive Murray's story !!!

he was hiding for two days with his lawyer to invent this silly story !!!

Murray can Go to hell ,,,he is a lair and i do not believe a word of what he told the police !

Michael is much stronger than the silly picture he painted for him....


wait until the other real doctors come and thell you the truth about MJ !!!

 

[athina_livadi]

That's the problem...some people have so little faith in Michael and that's so unfortunate and unfair!

 

[mthalen]

The truth can"t destroy his legacy. He wanted a come-back for his fans. They saw a chance to make huge money and it became unstopabble. From 10 to 50.

The contract said up to 31, so he knew it could be 31...
How it ever got to 50? No idea, but according to the contract AEG & MJ had to agree on any more concerts over 31.
Kinda ironic when you think about it: when the concerts went on sale MJ said he went to bed and it was 10, woke up and it there were 50..

 

[mthalen]

Didn't we expect it from the start? That Murray would blame it all on Michael? It's not a surprise at all!
Please stop with the conspiracy theories and don't forget that Michael hated needles!
Self inject and drink propofol out of a juice box...I am an astronaut then...

Technically he wouldn't have to selfinject: he was already connected to an IV which had a 'port' to insert a needle in.

Not that I believe it, but there's a difference between sticking a needle in yourself and sticking it in some piece of plastic...

 

[mthalen]

That's the problem...some people have so little faith in Michael and that's so unfortunate and unfair!

Why exactly is it a lack of faith in Michael when you believe he could've asked for the propofol because he was under so much pressure?
Why is it a lack of believe in Michael when you believe Murray accidentally killed Michael?

 

[Ohood]

another thing , Michael is aproffesional artist and he knows his job, and he knows business !

10 shows or 50 shows are the same for him , he was working on the rehearsals which is gonna take him the same effort...Queen of England was expected to attened his show , so he was supposed to take it seriously no matter what and his kids were going to see their father for the first time in the thier lives and probably the last...

MJ is no idiot or lazy ass , he knew his job and he was working very hard and very well and we saw this in the TII movie which thank God help us to see the master showing his magic again,, the show was amazing and there were new things for the first time in history of man kind !

so stop these silly suggestions about MJ being weak scared guy asking Murray for emotional help.

Murray was working on MJ vitillago he was rubbing his back , he was giving him healthy food , helping him using oxegine which all the singers including Madonna use before and during tours and sometimes help him at night to relax and sleep ....


so it is not true that Murray was there only to make MJ dance and go rehearsal like a puppet!

 

[The Healer]

That's the problem...some people have so little faith in Michael and that's so unfortunate and unfair!

I have endless faith in Michael and of course I don"t believe a word coming out of Murrays mouth.uke:

Once again...Michael and his true fans are standing alone.

 

[loveforever]

I never believe a single word from this liar. he really wanted people to believe Michael drank propofol, and begged for propofol when he was supposed to wake up and have breakfast with his children as usual, while Travis Payne was on his way to Michael's house.

 

[Ohood]

You can belive Murray as much as you can , but a man like Michael who was going tours since he was 5 years old , knew what was his contract and his job,,,,,and it is not a big deal for him if 20 shows in the second half of the year and in the same city took place ,,,,he was planning to go India and Japan and he also told a producer he is planning to take the gig to china,,,so stop with the 50 shows shit !


and keep in mind that we have a so called doctor who did every possible wrong thing a doctor whould do to not help the dying patient,,,,so\ our fight is not about what was supposed to happen in MJ concerts it is about why Murray did not help MJ to stay alive when he was able to do so !

 

[mthalen]

Murray was working on MJ vitillago he was rubbing his back , he was giving him healthy food , helping him using oxegine which all the singers including Madonna use before and during tours and sometimes help him at night to relax and sleep ....

If that's all he did, then why is Michael dead?

 

[mthalen]

... we have a so called doctor who did every possible wrong thing a doctor whould do to not help the dying patient,,,,so\ our fight is not about what was supposed to happen in MJ concerts it is about why Murray did not help MJ to stay alive when he was able to do so !

ac·ci·dent (ks-dnt, -dnt)
1.a. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
b. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
c. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.

Murray is a lousy doctor who made a mistake. Things happen.
People die every day because of accidents by doctors. Does that make all doctors murderers?

I agree, Murray should pay for his recklessness, that's why he's on trial.
But then again: I think American society is messed up, with all the drugs subscribed by doctors...
Anna Nicole, same ish, different doctor(s)...

 

[Ohood]

because Murray did not want him to be alive , a mistake or not a mistake !
MJ was able to be alive inspite of the drus in his blood , Come on there are crazy drug addicts in the streets and they live for years with all the things they do !

i do nto beleive the concerts are the reason for MJ's health troubles,,,he said in an interview in Irland in 2006 , make the light of the camers brighter so people think that i slept ! this was 2 years befor the concerts,,,,


do you see the mask Murray is wearing during the last two yeares, it is the same mask he wore infront of MJ , he know how to act like an angel and make himself look like a victim,,,MJ fill for these people he believed that Murray is a savour of the black and poor patients and decided to work with him and give him alot of money since this money is going to be used to help poor patients....


Murray is a devil , he spend his money on strippers at night and cry in the church in the morning in front of religous peopel ....


i would believe too him if i were Michael !

 

[StacyJ]

are people actually believing this idiot? the man has lied since the very beginning.. If he didn't believe he did anything wrong then why didn't he tell the EMTs or the ER doctors what he gave Michael?

 

[StacyJ]

Michael needed real help.. I really wish he had folks that cared about him to help him. Murray was only in it for the money and he knows it.

 

[mthalen]

because Murray did not want him to be alive , a mistake or not a mistake !
MJ was able to be alive inspite of the drus in his blood , Come on there are crazy drug addicts in the streets and they live for years with all the things they do !

Seriously. Search on youtube for propofol. In 10 seconds you can be dead, if not taken care of by a doctor.

 

[mthalen]

are people actually believing this idiot? the man has lied since the very beginning.. If he didn't believe he did anything wrong then why didn't he tell the EMTs or the ER doctors what he gave Michael?

Off course he lied, he thought he might get off easy, as opposed to God knows how long in jail. I would like to see a list of criminals who confess the moment they see a cop, I betcha it's very short.

 

[hilliver]

Michael isn't here to confirm or deny that he asked for Propofol or threatened to withdraw from the tour, if he did concent to Propofol was it an informed consent? hard to imagine Michael would risk his life for a tour if he knew the extent of the danger he was in, he wouldn't risk putting his children through that pain, and in the event that Michael was on his hands and knees begging for the drug, threatening to pull out (and we only have it on the word of a proven liar), it might have something to do with the addiction that Murrey had created.

Nothing excuses Murrey, IF Michael was begging and I think it is a big IF, given the sedation he had already recieved, which I think would have made him too drowsy to beg for anything, then Murrey was still wreckless to have given it to him, then left him alone, and delayed calling 911, after his botched attempt at CPR.

The man should still be on trial for murder, this is setting a frightening precendece for other money hungry quacks.

 

[Justthefacts]

Some of you will never change. It is everyone's fault but Murray's I don't care if the President of the United States was pressuring Michael you do not do the things Murray did on June 25. The man has told more lies then a little bit but some of you just can't help yourselves. Unbelievable

 

[Jessylex]

I have been following this hearing from beginning and have read almost all of your posts. I commented a little, but I just feel that I could perhaps help a little bit more. English is not my language, so I apologise in advance if there is something unclear.

I am an anaesthesiologist and have been working as one for the last 11 years. Propofol is one of the medications that I can call an essential tool in my everyday practice. It is hypnotic and sedation agent used for induction and maintenance of anaesthesia, sedation during operations under regional anaesthesia, sedation on ITU. Used for induction, is given as a bolus. For a person whose weight is around 60 kg, young and pretty fit and well usually is given 120 – 150 mg, sometimes more or less. We are all different, so we follow the patient’s response and inject according to that. If the goal is anaesthesia, patients usually stop breathing. We take over the breathing and to maintain the airway and breathing we use Laryngeal mask, or we intubate (there are indications when we usually intubate or when we prefer Laryngeal mask, but I will not get into it as it is irrelevant). You can maintain airway and give artificial breathing even with only a mask connected to the anaesthetic machine or an AMBU bag for very short procedures (5-10 mins, e.g. manual non operative reposition of broken bones, electro conversion of hearth rhythm disturbances&#8230, To maintain anaesthesia we use either gas or Propofol infusion that is delivered by specially designed pump. It takes into account patients age and weight. To intubate, you usually need between 3 and 4 mcg/ml (plasma concentration) Propofol. After intubation you decrease Propofol to 2.5-3 mcg /ml, and often its concentration is even less than that because we use other medications that help maintain anaesthesia and analgesia (strong painkillers, muscle relaxants&#8230 and we monitor the depth of anaesthesia with BIS (bispectral monitoring using electrodes that measure brain electrical activity).
If used for sedation plasma concentrations can be anywhere between 0.5 to 1.5 mcg /ml.

In order to use propofol even in the hospital, you need a monitored area, dvs operation theatre, procedure rooms, Intensive care unit, emergency room… Even in hospital you do not use propofol without proper monitoring. The minimum being pulse oxymetry, ECG, blood pressure, and you supply additional oxygen. You need resscucitation equipment at hand, to secure airway and breathing, you need medications to support the circulation, because propofol depresses not only breathing, but heart contractility as well and causes vasodilatation and drop in blood pressure. You need to have people who know how to use this equipment and the drugs. We monitor our patients continuously, no breaks, and leaving them for a second.

To use Propofol in someone’s home is a crime itself. Even if the patient did not die, to deliver such a powerful drug in such an unprofessional way is wrongdoing and crime. To make the patient believe it is safe is a crime as well. I mean, they can beg as much as you want YOU DO NOT GETTING IT FROM ME!!!! That is what would have been right.

To give it without proper equipment and resuscitation drugs is equal to driving a car on the open motorway in the opposite direction. The accident is going to happen for sure, we just do not know when and where exactly.

Murray said that MJ was breathing and he went to the toilet for 2 minutes, and when he got back he was dead. You do not die if you have not been breathing in 2 minutes. If you were getting oxygen your pulse oxymetry may not even change after 2 minutes. But even if you were not getting oxygen you do not die after 2 minutes. The only thing you have to do is open up the mouth, lift the jaw and if this does not help give rescue breaths with an AMBU bag (as I realise, there was an ambu bag and a mask in MJs room). You ventilate him until he starts breathing on his own. It is as simple as that if you know what you are doing. You do not need chest compressions with respiratory arrest, if the patient has pulse, and you do not lose your pulse after 2 minutes of not breathing.

Murray was either so stupid that he did not know how to use his AMBU or he panicked so lost precious time panicking. Or what is in my opinion more likely, he left the room much earlier, not checking on MJ, and when he found him he had been dead already.

Another thing, I am not toxicologist or pharmaceutical expert, but you do not get so high propofol concentrations in your blood after only 25mg.

Even if MJ injected himself, that should not help Murray. It is not about who injected, it is about unsafe and criminal medical practice that led to a person’s death. So self injection should not let Murray go free. He is still responsible in delivering the drug in an unsecure way.

Being anMJs fan for such a long time, I have been thinking so much about hm and the way he ended his life. He was an intelligent man. How did he let this happen? Did he really need to do This is it? Was he really so desperate to get some money? Or did he have another reason to do it?
He himself stated on so many occasions that he hated touring. He said that he would get sick, dehydrated, exhausted. I do not understand his thinking. Why was he so desperate that he let those people controlling his life?
He had 3 children, 3 wonderful reasons to live. How did he allow those horrible nights, oxygen cylinders, needles, infusions, drugs and those horrible sessions taking place under the same roof where his children slept?
I am asking this as a parent. I know most of you are very young and do not have your children. But being a parent changes the perspective of your life. I know that he was a great father, his wonderful kids are showing that to us. That is why I am puzzled about how on earth he allowed himself to end his life in such a horrible manner.

The doctor is responsible; there is no question at all about that. He should lose his licence to practice permanently and he should end up in jail.

But MJ has its own responsibility. Unfortunately he was punished for that in the most horrible way.

I love him so much, and will be his fan for the rest of my life. Still I had to say what I think. He, no matter how desperate he was, should not let this freak of a doctor and other leeches aroud him destroy his life.

 

[JMie]

thanks for your input Jessylex

 

[larry141094]

propofol does not build dependency. you can stop taking propofol any time without showing withdrawal symptoms. this is the advantage of propofol.

people who abuse propofol are not physically dependent. they self-inject tiny doses many times throughout the day which wear off after a few minutes. when the drug wears off it can cause a kind of euphoria. it is this euphoria which propofol abusers get addicted to. mj was not abusing propofol, it does not go with the evidence.

known cases of propofol abuse are restricted to people working in the medical field, mostly anesthetists and nurses with access to this drug at their workplace.

Where are you people getting your information?! Propofol DOES build dependency if used frequently (as Michael did)

 

[roseever]

- Pharmacy makes the energy formulation by putting 3 products available over the counter putting them in 1 capsule. They added caffeine, asprin and ephedrine. and made 30 capsules with that formulation

would the stacker cause insomnia?

 

[mthalen]

Some of you will never change. It is everyone's fault but Murray's I don't care if the President of the United States was pressuring Michael you do not do the things Murray did on June 25. The man has told more lies then a little bit but some of you just can't help yourselves. Unbelievable

This is about a trial, or better: if a case will even go to trial. Maximum sentence 4 years.
It's that simple.

Some people chose to believe MJ was a saint who never did anything wrong. Some people believe MJ deserved it because he asked for it. And some people just want to find out the truth, or something close to the truth...

Everyone is allowed to an opinion I assume?

 

[ginvid]

Look, this is becoming too much. If a person was to look throught this thread to find out information on what went on in the trial and to have it explained all they would come up with is a bunch of ideas and theories about what people think happened. Information that strays way off from what was actually discussed at the preliminary.

STOP IT!!!

We asked this before. I even apologized for getting caught up in that. But this cannot go on this way. We have other threads for comparing toxiology, for comparing pharmocology, as well as threads for what you think happened that night. This is NOT the thread to talk about why MJ did this. This is not the thread to throw blame on MJ. This is not the thread for conspiracy theories.

We really need to get on topic here. With all of the theories going around, the main testimony is being obscurred. And, examining that testimony is the main reason why these threads are set up.

Guys, I know it is difficult not to speculate. I know it is hard not to try to piece things together. But we have not even heard all of the testimony as of yet.

Please STAY ON TOPIC. PLEASE.

 

[mthalen]

Looong explanation

Wow, thanks! Great info!

Or what is in my opinion more likely, he left the room much earlier, not checking on MJ, and when he found him he had been dead already.

That's what I think as well: MJ was dead already, Murray panicked and knew he was wrong al along, giving MJ propofol.

Even if MJ injected himself, that should not help Murray. It is not about who injected, it is about unsafe and criminal medical practice that led to a person’s death. So self injection should not let Murray go free. He is still responsible in delivering the drug in an unsecure way.

I agree, he should get the 4 years just for (mis)using propofol in a home setting, the rest is almost irrelevant.

He had 3 children, 3 wonderful reasons to live. How did he allow those horrible nights, oxygen cylinders, needles, infusions, drugs and those horrible sessions taking place under the same roof where his children slept?

Sad to say, but I guess: money, given the amount of debt MJ was in before he died, the best (or only?) option was to do a tour.



//and back on topic, sorry ginvid.

 

[Autumn II]

I have been following this hearing from beginning and have read almost all of your posts. I commented a little, but I just feel that I could perhaps help a little bit more. English is not my language, so I apologise in advance if there is something unclear.

I am an anaesthesiologist and have been working as one for the last 11 years. Propofol is one of the medications that I can call an essential tool in my everyday practice. It is hypnotic and sedation agent used for induction and maintenance of anaesthesia, sedation during operations under regional anaesthesia, sedation on ITU. Used for induction, is given as a bolus. For a person whose weight is around 60 kg, young and pretty fit and well usually is given 120 – 150 mg, sometimes more or less. We are all different, so we follow the patient’s response and inject according to that. If the goal is anaesthesia, patients usually stop breathing. We take over the breathing and to maintain the airway and breathing we use Laryngeal mask, or we intubate (there are indications when we usually intubate or when we prefer Laryngeal mask, but I will not get into it as it is irrelevant). You can maintain airway and give artificial breathing even with only a mask connected to the anaesthetic machine or an AMBU bag for very short procedures (5-10 mins, e.g. manual non operative reposition of broken bones, electro conversion of hearth rhythm disturbances&#8230, To maintain anaesthesia we use either gas or Propofol infusion that is delivered by specially designed pump. It takes into account patients age and weight. To intubate, you usually need between 3 and 4 mcg/ml (plasma concentration) Propofol. After intubation you decrease Propofol to 2.5-3 mcg /ml, and often its concentration is even less than that because we use other medications that help maintain anaesthesia and analgesia (strong painkillers, muscle relaxants&#8230 and we monitor the depth of anaesthesia with BIS (bispectral monitoring using electrodes that measure brain electrical activity).
If used for sedation plasma concentrations can be anywhere between 0.5 to 1.5 mcg /ml.

In order to use propofol even in the hospital, you need a monitored area, dvs operation theatre, procedure rooms, Intensive care unit, emergency room… Even in hospital you do not use propofol without proper monitoring. The minimum being pulse oxymetry, ECG, blood pressure, and you supply additional oxygen. You need resscucitation equipment at hand, to secure airway and breathing, you need medications to support the circulation, because propofol depresses not only breathing, but heart contractility as well and causes vasodilatation and drop in blood pressure. You need to have people who know how to use this equipment and the drugs. We monitor our patients continuously, no breaks, and leaving them for a second.

To use Propofol in someone’s home is a crime itself. Even if the patient did not die, to deliver such a powerful drug in such an unprofessional way is wrongdoing and crime. To make the patient believe it is safe is a crime as well. I mean, they can beg as much as you want YOU DO NOT GETTING IT FROM ME!!!! That is what would have been right.

To give it without proper equipment and resuscitation drugs is equal to driving a car on the open motorway in the opposite direction. The accident is going to happen for sure, we just do not know when and where exactly.

Murray said that MJ was breathing and he went to the toilet for 2 minutes, and when he got back he was dead. You do not die if you have not been breathing in 2 minutes. If you were getting oxygen your pulse oxymetry may not even change after 2 minutes. But even if you were not getting oxygen you do not die after 2 minutes. The only thing you have to do is open up the mouth, lift the jaw and if this does not help give rescue breaths with an AMBU bag (as I realise, there was an ambu bag and a mask in MJs room). You ventilate him until he starts breathing on his own. It is as simple as that if you know what you are doing. You do not need chest compressions with respiratory arrest, if the patient has pulse, and you do not lose your pulse after 2 minutes of not breathing.

Murray was either so stupid that he did not know how to use his AMBU or he panicked so lost precious time panicking. Or what is in my opinion more likely, he left the room much earlier, not checking on MJ, and when he found him he had been dead already.

Another thing, I am not toxicologist or pharmaceutical expert, but you do not get so high propofol concentrations in your blood after only 25mg.

Even if MJ injected himself, that should not help Murray. It is not about who injected, it is about unsafe and criminal medical practice that led to a person’s death. So self injection should not let Murray go free. He is still responsible in delivering the drug in an unsecure way.

Being anMJs fan for such a long time, I have been thinking so much about hm and the way he ended his life. He was an intelligent man. How did he let this happen? Did he really need to do This is it? Was he really so desperate to get some money? Or did he have another reason to do it?
He himself stated on so many occasions that he hated touring. He said that he would get sick, dehydrated, exhausted. I do not understand his thinking. Why was he so desperate that he let those people controlling his life?
He had 3 children, 3 wonderful reasons to live. How did he allow those horrible nights, oxygen cylinders, needles, infusions, drugs and those horrible sessions taking place under the same roof where his children slept?
I am asking this as a parent. I know most of you are very young and do not have your children. But being a parent changes the perspective of your life. I know that he was a great father, his wonderful kids are showing that to us. That is why I am puzzled about how on earth he allowed himself to end his life in such a horrible manner.

The doctor is responsible; there is no question at all about that. He should lose his licence to practice permanently and he should end up in jail.

But MJ has its own responsibility. Unfortunately he was punished for that in the most horrible way.

I love him so much, and will be his fan for the rest of my life. Still I had to say what I think. He, no matter how desperate he was, should not let this freak of a doctor and other leeches aroud him destroy his life.

Thank you for your wonderfully informative post!

You are quite right about the scenario of, "I went to the bathroom for only two minutes, came back, and Michael had stopped breathing." If that had been the case, Michael could have been rescued, as you described above. I think Murray was out of the room for much longer, and when he returned, Michael was already dead/beyond rescue. (At least, that's one plausible scenario.)

As far as Michael's "responsibility" is concerned, not much I can say to that except that he had a tendency to TRUST too much. There had been a string of opportunistic managers and hangers-on, and Michael trusted them until something went badly wrong. I put the blame squarely on Murray, the medical professional who absolutely knew better than to do what he was doing. So, he was last in a long list of people who tried to take financial advantage of Michael.

The "Michael begged for it" is a tactic we knew Murray would use. I can't see how that's much of a defense, at all. Murray was the medical professional, and he certainly knew what he was doing was incredibly risky.

(oh, and Larry? Michael did NOT "have Aspergers." -- on the Autism spectrum. I have NO idea where that's coming from!)

 

[Ohood]

Seriously. Search on youtube for propofol. In 10 seconds you can be dead, if not taken care of by a doctor .

thanx for answering your own question,,,yes it is about the man in the trial now not about the one in the grave !

 

[Justthefacts]

thanx for answering your own question,,,yes it is about the man in the trial now not about the one in the grave !

Thank you for that because for a second I forgot who was on trial

 

[Ohood]

Jessylex
tanx alot but i have a question :

if Murry left the room for long time and not only 2 min. how do you explain the huge amount of Propfol in MJ's system !?

MJ died within few minutes due to huge amount of Propfol ....which means Murray gave him th huge amount and left ....becuase it is 1000% MJ was not able to do it himself at least we are sure that he was not able not just emotionaly as needls phobic but physically since he can't reach the IV in his leg and holda the bottle with a needle to inject himself while dsoriented and not fully awake !