Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

What on earth is this?
I can't believe this forum anymore!
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tell me about it LOL i guess that will be murrays next defence seeing as this poster says diprivan creates physical dependency which anyone whos been here since june 09 knows is rubbish
 
Jessylex
tanx alot but i have a question :

if Murry left the room for long time and not only 2 min. how do you explain the huge amount of Propfol in MJ's system !?

MJ died within few minutes due to huge amount of Propfol ....which means Murray gave him th huge amount and left ....becuase it is 1000% MJ was not able to do it himself at least we are sure that he was not able not just emotionaly as needls phobic but physically since he can't reach the IV in his leg and holda the bottle with a needle to inject himself while dsoriented and not fully awake !

Well if you read my post carefully you will see that I wrote that it was not possible to achieve so huge amount of propofol from only 25 mg. How much he got? I do not no, but more than that certainly.
 
I am going to clean this thread of posts that were still off topic after I asked again for it to be on topic.

Sorry!
 
If some serious action is not taken for some things stated in this forum then we should declare ourselves crazy. I agree Elusive Moonwalker we are better than any other defense and we surely don't deserve to be called fans! Where has all the faith in Michael gone? We have been living with Michael in our lives for so many years, some of us more than half of our life! All we do for the last year is judge and criticize him. Hell yeah, we knew about the insomnia problem for years as we did for vitiligo, lupus, the burning! He needs us now more than ever to stand up for him yet instead we crucify him.
I better leave this thread or else...
 
I stepped away from this thread before I said something that would cause even more dissension in this section.

Let me put on my staff hat and say - we are entitled to our opinions but we have to be careful not to base them on speculation. We also have to be careful not to castigate and criticise Michael based on what Conrad Murray has said.

Let us wait until we have a better picture of what the prosecution is alleging and how Murray plans to defends against that, BEFORE we condemn Michael's perceived shortcomings.

Thank you.

PS Thank you ginvid for sorting this out!
 
funny how murray said he didnt now what he was getting into re the dirpivan and mj had other drs who were giving it to him.yet told the insurance guy he was and had been mjs only dr for the last 3 years! can u throw in insurance fraud as another charge!
 
Jessylex;3186437 said:
I have been following this hearing from beginning and have read almost all of your posts. I commented a little, but I just feel that I could perhaps help a little bit more. English is not my language, so I apologise in advance if there is something unclear.

I am an anaesthesiologist and have been working as one for the last 11 years. Propofol is one of the medications that I can call an essential tool in my everyday practice. It is hypnotic and sedation agent used for induction and maintenance of anaesthesia, sedation during operations under regional anaesthesia, sedation on ITU. Used for induction, is given as a bolus. For a person whose weight is around 60 kg, young and pretty fit and well usually is given 120 – 150 mg, sometimes more or less. We are all different, so we follow the patient’s response and inject according to that. If the goal is anaesthesia, patients usually stop breathing. We take over the breathing and to maintain the airway and breathing we use Laryngeal mask, or we intubate (there are indications when we usually intubate or when we prefer Laryngeal mask, but I will not get into it as it is irrelevant). You can maintain airway and give artificial breathing even with only a mask connected to the anaesthetic machine or an AMBU bag for very short procedures (5-10 mins, e.g. manual non operative reposition of broken bones, electro conversion of hearth rhythm disturbances…), To maintain anaesthesia we use either gas or Propofol infusion that is delivered by specially designed pump. It takes into account patients age and weight. To intubate, you usually need between 3 and 4 mcg/ml (plasma concentration) Propofol. After intubation you decrease Propofol to 2.5-3 mcg /ml, and often its concentration is even less than that because we use other medications that help maintain anaesthesia and analgesia (strong painkillers, muscle relaxants…) and we monitor the depth of anaesthesia with BIS (bispectral monitoring using electrodes that measure brain electrical activity).
If used for sedation plasma concentrations can be anywhere between 0.5 to 1.5 mcg /ml.

In order to use propofol even in the hospital, you need a monitored area, dvs operation theatre, procedure rooms, Intensive care unit, emergency room… Even in hospital you do not use propofol without proper monitoring. The minimum being pulse oxymetry, ECG, blood pressure, and you supply additional oxygen. You need resscucitation equipment at hand, to secure airway and breathing, you need medications to support the circulation, because propofol depresses not only breathing, but heart contractility as well and causes vasodilatation and drop in blood pressure. You need to have people who know how to use this equipment and the drugs. We monitor our patients continuously, no breaks, and leaving them for a second.

To use Propofol in someone’s home is a crime itself. Even if the patient did not die, to deliver such a powerful drug in such an unprofessional way is wrongdoing and crime. To make the patient believe it is safe is a crime as well. I mean, they can beg as much as you want YOU DO NOT GETTING IT FROM ME!!!! That is what would have been right.

To give it without proper equipment and resuscitation drugs is equal to driving a car on the open motorway in the opposite direction. The accident is going to happen for sure, we just do not know when and where exactly.

Murray said that MJ was breathing and he went to the toilet for 2 minutes, and when he got back he was dead. You do not die if you have not been breathing in 2 minutes. If you were getting oxygen your pulse oxymetry may not even change after 2 minutes. But even if you were not getting oxygen you do not die after 2 minutes. The only thing you have to do is open up the mouth, lift the jaw and if this does not help give rescue breaths with an AMBU bag (as I realise, there was an ambu bag and a mask in MJs room). You ventilate him until he starts breathing on his own. It is as simple as that if you know what you are doing. You do not need chest compressions with respiratory arrest, if the patient has pulse, and you do not lose your pulse after 2 minutes of not breathing.

Murray was either so stupid that he did not know how to use his AMBU or he panicked so lost precious time panicking. Or what is in my opinion more likely, he left the room much earlier, not checking on MJ, and when he found him he had been dead already.

Another thing, I am not toxicologist or pharmaceutical expert, but you do not get so high propofol concentrations in your blood after only 25mg.

Even if MJ injected himself, that should not help Murray. It is not about who injected, it is about unsafe and criminal medical practice that led to a person’s death. So self injection should not let Murray go free. He is still responsible in delivering the drug in an unsecure way.

Being anMJs fan for such a long time, I have been thinking so much about hm and the way he ended his life. He was an intelligent man. How did he let this happen? Did he really need to do This is it? Was he really so desperate to get some money? Or did he have another reason to do it?
He himself stated on so many occasions that he hated touring. He said that he would get sick, dehydrated, exhausted. I do not understand his thinking. Why was he so desperate that he let those people controlling his life?
He had 3 children, 3 wonderful reasons to live. How did he allow those horrible nights, oxygen cylinders, needles, infusions, drugs and those horrible sessions taking place under the same roof where his children slept?
I am asking this as a parent. I know most of you are very young and do not have your children. But being a parent changes the perspective of your life. I know that he was a great father, his wonderful kids are showing that to us. That is why I am puzzled about how on earth he allowed himself to end his life in such a horrible manner.

The doctor is responsible; there is no question at all about that. He should lose his licence to practice permanently and he should end up in jail.

But MJ has its own responsibility. Unfortunately he was punished for that in the most horrible way.

I love him so much, and will be his fan for the rest of my life. Still I had to say what I think. He, no matter how desperate he was, should not let this freak of a doctor and other leeches aroud him destroy his life.

Thank you for the informative post.
 
Jessylex;3186437 said:
I have been following this hearing from beginning and have read almost all of your posts. I commented a little, but I just feel that I could perhaps help a little bit more. English is not my language, so I apologise in advance if there is something unclear.

I am an anaesthesiologist and have been working as one for the last 11 years. Propofol is one of the medications that I can call an essential tool in my everyday practice. It is hypnotic and sedation agent used for induction and maintenance of anaesthesia, sedation during operations under regional anaesthesia, sedation on ITU. Used for induction, is given as a bolus. For a person whose weight is around 60 kg, young and pretty fit and well usually is given 120 – 150 mg, sometimes more or less. We are all different, so we follow the patient’s response and inject according to that. If the goal is anaesthesia, patients usually stop breathing. We take over the breathing and to maintain the airway and breathing we use Laryngeal mask, or we intubate (there are indications when we usually intubate or when we prefer Laryngeal mask, but I will not get into it as it is irrelevant). You can maintain airway and give artificial breathing even with only a mask connected to the anaesthetic machine or an AMBU bag for very short procedures (5-10 mins, e.g. manual non operative reposition of broken bones, electro conversion of hearth rhythm disturbances…), To maintain anaesthesia we use either gas or Propofol infusion that is delivered by specially designed pump. It takes into account patients age and weight. To intubate, you usually need between 3 and 4 mcg/ml (plasma concentration) Propofol. After intubation you decrease Propofol to 2.5-3 mcg /ml, and often its concentration is even less than that because we use other medications that help maintain anaesthesia and analgesia (strong painkillers, muscle relaxants…) and we monitor the depth of anaesthesia with BIS (bispectral monitoring using electrodes that measure brain electrical activity).
If used for sedation plasma concentrations can be anywhere between 0.5 to 1.5 mcg /ml.

In order to use propofol even in the hospital, you need a monitored area, dvs operation theatre, procedure rooms, Intensive care unit, emergency room… Even in hospital you do not use propofol without proper monitoring. The minimum being pulse oxymetry, ECG, blood pressure, and you supply additional oxygen. You need resscucitation equipment at hand, to secure airway and breathing, you need medications to support the circulation, because propofol depresses not only breathing, but heart contractility as well and causes vasodilatation and drop in blood pressure. You need to have people who know how to use this equipment and the drugs. We monitor our patients continuously, no breaks, and leaving them for a second.

To use Propofol in someone’s home is a crime itself. Even if the patient did not die, to deliver such a powerful drug in such an unprofessional way is wrongdoing and crime. To make the patient believe it is safe is a crime as well. I mean, they can beg as much as you want YOU DO NOT GETTING IT FROM ME!!!! That is what would have been right.

To give it without proper equipment and resuscitation drugs is equal to driving a car on the open motorway in the opposite direction. The accident is going to happen for sure, we just do not know when and where exactly.

Murray said that MJ was breathing and he went to the toilet for 2 minutes, and when he got back he was dead. You do not die if you have not been breathing in 2 minutes. If you were getting oxygen your pulse oxymetry may not even change after 2 minutes. But even if you were not getting oxygen you do not die after 2 minutes. The only thing you have to do is open up the mouth, lift the jaw and if this does not help give rescue breaths with an AMBU bag (as I realise, there was an ambu bag and a mask in MJs room). You ventilate him until he starts breathing on his own. It is as simple as that if you know what you are doing. You do not need chest compressions with respiratory arrest, if the patient has pulse, and you do not lose your pulse after 2 minutes of not breathing.

Murray was either so stupid that he did not know how to use his AMBU or he panicked so lost precious time panicking. Or what is in my opinion more likely, he left the room much earlier, not checking on MJ, and when he found him he had been dead already.

Another thing, I am not toxicologist or pharmaceutical expert, but you do not get so high propofol concentrations in your blood after only 25mg.

Even if MJ injected himself, that should not help Murray. It is not about who injected, it is about unsafe and criminal medical practice that led to a person’s death. So self injection should not let Murray go free. He is still responsible in delivering the drug in an unsecure way.

Being anMJs fan for such a long time, I have been thinking so much about hm and the way he ended his life. He was an intelligent man. How did he let this happen? Did he really need to do This is it? Was he really so desperate to get some money? Or did he have another reason to do it?
He himself stated on so many occasions that he hated touring. He said that he would get sick, dehydrated, exhausted. I do not understand his thinking. Why was he so desperate that he let those people controlling his life?
He had 3 children, 3 wonderful reasons to live. How did he allow those horrible nights, oxygen cylinders, needles, infusions, drugs and those horrible sessions taking place under the same roof where his children slept?
I am asking this as a parent. I know most of you are very young and do not have your children. But being a parent changes the perspective of your life. I know that he was a great father, his wonderful kids are showing that to us. That is why I am puzzled about how on earth he allowed himself to end his life in such a horrible manner.

The doctor is responsible; there is no question at all about that. He should lose his licence to practice permanently and he should end up in jail.

But MJ has its own responsibility. Unfortunately he was punished for that in the most horrible way.

I love him so much, and will be his fan for the rest of my life. Still I had to say what I think. He, no matter how desperate he was, should not let this freak of a doctor and other leeches aroud him destroy his life.


What a wonderfull post... the best i read today :)

Thank you so much, and pls stick around we might have to consult u alot more :D
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Among other things he is going to have a big problem with the bolded because I heard the experts say that all you have to do is stop giving the person the propofol. You do not lower doses to "wean" anyone off. Further, how does he justify then giving him something with causes dependency. Murray is not knowledgeable about medicine.

Can someone check to see if there is another Murray who is a doctor. maybe we have the wrong Dr. Murray.

LoL!

Yes, you do get somewhat of a bruise from the insertion of the i.v., but thats it. A patient should never really swell unless there was a problem inserting the i.v. From the people i know that have gotten i.v.'s, they said its painful when it is being put in and its probably uncomfortable while inserted, but thats about it. No one ever says its painful after its removed.

If they have a hard time finding good veins, then yeah, ohhh my God it can hurt. And be bruised, tender and sore for days after.

Michael Jackson was not one that held common sense, that much is clear, he just wanted to sleep, and trust me, Insomnia like that, you would do ANYTHING to sleep, and the fact that his previous doctors said it was safe, that was enough for him to believe it was, infact if he believed it was safe, it might explain why he insisted on that specific drug

Wow. Quite a judgment there. "Common sense" is no longer a guide or factor when being led by a doctor who is there to cater to you 24/7. We all know if Michael had a deadly flaw, it was being too trusting of other people.

Where are you people getting your information?! Propofol DOES build dependency if used frequently (as Michael did)

Where are you getting your info?

- Pharmacy makes the energy formulation by putting 3 products available over the counter putting them in 1 capsule. They added caffeine, asprin and ephedrine. and made 30 capsules with that formulation

would the stacker cause insomnia?

YES. Which is one reason why ECA stacks are illegal.
 
and the fact that his previous doctors said it was safe, that was enough for him to believe it was, infact if he believed it was safe, it might explain why he insisted on that specific drug
thats dr was murray if u look at the timeline. hes the one who told mj is was safe

anyway said poster obviously has issues considering their other posts good ole sandy the cow girl type
 
Ok, the thread has been cleaned already. The posts are gone for obvious reason. That is why some posts seem out of place. Can we please just get back to the testimony for today?

I will clean this thread once again.

Stay On Topic.

Also, please don't feed the trolls. If you think someone is trolling, please just let us know and ignore them. They want the threads to be derailed and paying them any attention only helps in this regard.

Thank you.
 
thats dr was murray if u look at the timeline. hes the one who told mj is was safe

he probably 'proved' to him it was safe , remember he ordered 10 SINGLE dose vials even before MJ mentioned propofol to Lee.

The prosecution's work is very impressive so far, really really impressive. It is like they are refuting every statement Murray made , every word.
 
To the staff here... how is this allowed???? SOrry but it pisses me of.. im a long time fan, and i was a member here with a different name a long time ago, i quit during the trials because i found it to painfull, my email was torned somehow and i came back 09

No im not a fan because of my personal list says member since 09?????

Oh my god thats so mean and so unfair for all of us how said that.

Fake fans.. thats hilarisch to say! So pls staff

Why is this allowed? its mean and its certainly not about testimonys. its a personal attack

No, I think this may be a miscommunication thing - What Elusive said was that there are many people on here who appear to be trolls since they randomly showed up only to talk about the trial and seem to have very little knowledge about MJ.

(S)he wasn't saying that everyone with a join date after 6/09 is fake. (S)he's saying "Good thing these people who don't know anything about the case and like to believe everything the media says weren't here in 2003-2005 for the last trial. Otherwise, they would have been spewing their garbage all over the board as soon as Sneddon started laying out his accusations."

I didn't find MJJC until 7/09 - about a week after Michael passed and a week before the memorial - but I know Elusive wasn't talking about me because I've never been a hater and I don't make inane, ignorant comments. I've made it my business to educate myself as much as humanly possible on what's going on right now - because I care enough about MJ to do that.

Don't worry, (S)he wasn't insulting you or anyone else who's on here for the right reasons. :better:
 
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Erin fro mj4 justice was on tru tv suggesting there is implied malice-should be 2nd degree murder.
 
No, I think this may be a miscommunication thing - What Elusive said was that there are many people on here who appear to be trolls since they randomly showed up only to talk about the trial and seem to have very little knowledge about MJ.

(S)he wasn't saying that everyone with a join date after 6/09 is fake. (S)he's saying "Good thing these people who don't know anything about the case and like to believe everything the media says weren't here in 2003-2005 for the last trial. Otherwise, they would have been spewing their garbage all over the board as soon as Sneddon started laying out his accusations."

I didn't find MJJC until 7/09 - about a week after Michael passed and a week before the memorial - but I know Elusive wasn't talking about me because I've never been a hater and I don't make inane, ignorant comments. I've made it my business to educate myself as much as humanly possible on what's going on right now - because I care enough about MJ to do that.

Don't worry, (S)he wasn't insulting you or anyone else who's on here for the right reasons. :better:


thank you
 
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