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Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread
- Thread starter TheChosenOne
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mthalen
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Anyone know if they test for propofol during a regular autopsy?
Or did they only test because they found the bottles?
Still think it went something like this:
- MJ couldn't sleep, was used to using propofol, if all other sleep medication failed., He'd been up until the early morning, nothing helped, so finally told Murray to give him propofol at around 10:30.
- Murray gave him propofol, stepped out the room to make a bunch of calls, came back around 11:45 and found MJ dead (and cold). He freaked out and figured he'd better get rid of all the empty bottles, so maybe he could get away with it.
Timeline might differ a bit, but I refuse to believe Murray murdered MJ, I do think it was an "accident"... If he meant to kill him there would be no propofol to be found
Could he have saved him? I don't think so, I think Murray immediately knew what was going on: MJ was dead when he entered the room. He's a doctor, he's not stupid.
He should've had monitoring equipment set up in the room. The proper aniti-dote/reversal for propofol and have been at MJ's bed the whole time MJ was under...
At the slightest indication something was wrong he could've called 911...
Or did they only test because they found the bottles?
Still think it went something like this:
- MJ couldn't sleep, was used to using propofol, if all other sleep medication failed., He'd been up until the early morning, nothing helped, so finally told Murray to give him propofol at around 10:30.
- Murray gave him propofol, stepped out the room to make a bunch of calls, came back around 11:45 and found MJ dead (and cold). He freaked out and figured he'd better get rid of all the empty bottles, so maybe he could get away with it.
Timeline might differ a bit, but I refuse to believe Murray murdered MJ, I do think it was an "accident"... If he meant to kill him there would be no propofol to be found
Could he have saved him? I don't think so, I think Murray immediately knew what was going on: MJ was dead when he entered the room. He's a doctor, he's not stupid.
He should've had monitoring equipment set up in the room. The proper aniti-dote/reversal for propofol and have been at MJ's bed the whole time MJ was under...
At the slightest indication something was wrong he could've called 911...
mthalen
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Murray himself.
Iceberg
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ivy;3185252 said:
Sorry english is not my first language.
Murray before calling 911, the concern was with insurance?
How so? I think not quite understand this part
mthalen
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THey just want to show that Murray emailed an insurance company a few hours before MJ died that his health was fine.
Iceberg
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mthalen
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One more; I thought MJ liked to read about stuff and I guess he wasnt stupid, so, like any normal adult he would've known that it's at least kinda strange to have a sleeping medicine given to you by IV...
Sure, here come the stories about aunts and uncles who had propofol administered to them daily while they were sitting on their front porch, but let's be realistic: If one of your parents had problems sleeping and one day a docter came over and said "sure, I'll just hook them up to this IV everyday, it'll help them sleep", you'd scratch your head and wonder what the f was going on, and they probably would call another doc and kick this one out the door...
Sure, here come the stories about aunts and uncles who had propofol administered to them daily while they were sitting on their front porch, but let's be realistic: If one of your parents had problems sleeping and one day a docter came over and said "sure, I'll just hook them up to this IV everyday, it'll help them sleep", you'd scratch your head and wonder what the f was going on, and they probably would call another doc and kick this one out the door...
larry141094
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Michael Jackson was not one that held common sense, that much is clear, he just wanted to sleep, and trust me, Insomnia like that, you would do ANYTHING to sleep, and the fact that his previous doctors said it was safe, that was enough for him to believe it was, infact if he believed it was safe, it might explain why he insisted on that specific drug
Iceberg
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Can not think of an accident. MJ was not stupid, of course. No doubt many knew about it, but Murray should not have any knowledge, but knowledge absolute. We talk to a doctor and the slightest sign of risk, it would not matter any opinion of his patient, but his commitment to life.
Just my opinion
Just my opinion
The Healer
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My believe is that Kenny"s testimony was false.
They had a meeting on the 19-th and they were pressuring Michael to snap out of it.
He said he was not yelling but I believe he was. ( that is just my opinion )
It is very possible that Michael had some health problems and I believe he was not feeling well.
I really don"t know if Michael knew the danger of sleeping drugs...but he probably did.
Still....he obviously thought he was safe with a doctor.
All those ppl around Michael made so many mistakes...that is unbelivable.
One thing I am sure about, Michael was under enormes pressure .
They had a meeting on the 19-th and they were pressuring Michael to snap out of it.
He said he was not yelling but I believe he was. ( that is just my opinion )
It is very possible that Michael had some health problems and I believe he was not feeling well.
I really don"t know if Michael knew the danger of sleeping drugs...but he probably did.
Still....he obviously thought he was safe with a doctor.
All those ppl around Michael made so many mistakes...that is unbelivable.
One thing I am sure about, Michael was under enormes pressure .
mthalen
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Indeed. First I heard about is I figured it was another "One night only, HBO special" kind thing, that he just coudln't handle it (the pressure). To be honest, when they cancelled the 1st few shows I thought that would be the end of it...
LOL, yeah. I'm sure he also snorted Propofol. :smilerolleyes:
This is off topic, really, but I think Michael wouldn't have wanted the IV to be put on the back of his hand or anywhere else where the puncture mark would be clearly visible. Right?
Ok, I had to laugh at the bolded part :lol:
As for the rest of your post; Michael was smart indeed, and liked to read. But that doesn't mean he knew of every drug out there. And if a doctor told him that using propofol would be safe under proper monitoring (which, sadly, Murray failed to provide as we know) he could've just taken the doctor's word for it. It's easy to believe what your doctor tells you, he is supposed to be a professional after all. People tend to trust their doctors.
The Healer
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I have just read on TMZ....Murray said Michael begged him for propofol. Murray was PRESSURED from Michael. Or he will cancel the rehersals.
He also said Michael liked to administer himself.
He would do anything to cover his lying a**....!!!!
Let"s put the blame on Michael...as usual. omg
WTF he thinks he is ??!!!!
He also said Michael liked to administer himself.
He would do anything to cover his lying a**....!!!!
Let"s put the blame on Michael...as usual. omg
WTF he thinks he is ??!!!!
mthalen
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Well, he probably was begging, I know I would, if I hadn't slept in days and believed propofol was the answer...
And why would it be so hard to believe MJ said he would have to cancel rehearsals? It's only logic you can't rehearse if you still haven't slept from the night before...
Accoring to Katherine's lawsuit AEG was at Michael's on the 18th, saying he should miss no more rehearsals or they would pull the plug, so he obviously had missed rehearsals earlier. On the 20th Ortega allegedly read Michael the riot act (although he denies it now).
So on the 25th the pressure to perform/rehearse must've been enormous. I think it makes perfect sens for MJ to have said: if I don't get any sleep, I cannot rehearse, so please give me some propofol...
I think Murray would've felt the pressure also, as he was supposed to keep MJ fit.
And why would it be so hard to believe MJ said he would have to cancel rehearsals? It's only logic you can't rehearse if you still haven't slept from the night before...
Accoring to Katherine's lawsuit AEG was at Michael's on the 18th, saying he should miss no more rehearsals or they would pull the plug, so he obviously had missed rehearsals earlier. On the 20th Ortega allegedly read Michael the riot act (although he denies it now).
So on the 25th the pressure to perform/rehearse must've been enormous. I think it makes perfect sens for MJ to have said: if I don't get any sleep, I cannot rehearse, so please give me some propofol...
I think Murray would've felt the pressure also, as he was supposed to keep MJ fit.
The Healer
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^^^
I understand what you are saying, but still.
It is all conected. They were pressuring Michael...the whole machinery.
No Ortega no Murray cared about Michael"s health...that is clear sa a sunny day.
Michael is the victim here not poor Murray.
I can see how all of this is developing and I don"t like it.
I understand what you are saying, but still.
It is all conected. They were pressuring Michael...the whole machinery.
No Ortega no Murray cared about Michael"s health...that is clear sa a sunny day.
Michael is the victim here not poor Murray.
I can see how all of this is developing and I don"t like it.
Ingelief
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Guest Commentary on MJ Autopsy Report
T & T is pleased to offer guest commentary from KZ. KZ, a practicing nurse anesthetist, has offered knowledgeable commentary regarding the use of propofol and correct medical techniques. This is the first of two write-ups.
Is this the caligirl you all were talking about???? (As a bad person??)
??
T & T is pleased to offer guest commentary from KZ. KZ, a practicing nurse anesthetist, has offered knowledgeable commentary regarding the use of propofol and correct medical techniques. This is the first of two write-ups.
Is this the caligirl you all were talking about???? (As a bad person??)
??
8701girl
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PCR
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I agree.
This just confirms what fans around Michael have been saying right from the beginning: Michael was under so much preassure and people around him wouldn't stop pressuring at all. They didn't give him a chance to really recover, instead, they wanted him to go on all the way. If he couldn't sleep, how was he suppossed to do so? How was he to sing and dance and have a clear mind to do the kind of show such a perfectionist would have wanted to created?
Poor Michael :no:
PCR
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Michael Jackson was not a fool. One can be blind just so much. He must have been aware of the dangerous of using this kind of things. We all understand the difference between sleeping and being anesthetized. Otherwise, we would expect doctors to wait untill we would fall naturally asleep to undergo surgery. Who would do that?? :mello:
Michael was in desperate need of help and support, even when that help would not tell /give him what he wanted to hear/be given. If someone is doing that bad, if he can't sleep and propofol had to be used during the last 2 months just to get that person to sleep, how do you say he is doing fine and how do you allow that person to keep on working?
Wasn't he there to care for Michael? Or was he there just to make sure Michael would keep working no matter what?
When he saw Michael was doing that bad, HE was the one to stop him, no matter what. Instead, he keep giving him whatever bad thing just to keep him going.
Again, for me, MJ's dead is but the result of an incredible long history of wrongdoings by many around him over the years. CM had the chance to make a change, but instead, he just kept doing what others had been doing before. And yes, he didn't care at all about Michael. He should go to jail, but so should all those who contributed to this situation over the years.
mthalen
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Sure, I think MJ was dead serious when he made "Money"...
I think AEG and Ortega were mainly looking out for themselves, sure, they cared about Michael, but in the end it would all come back to them as well, if the shows were to be cancelled, so they must've pressured MJ like crazy.
Same for Murray in a way: like any human being no one wants to see someone die (I hope), so he must've cared for MJ, but he also had major money issues if I remember correctly(?), so yeah, if the client wants something, you give it, just to secure that 150.000 a month paycheck for the next year or so...
sophie
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propofol does not build dependency. you can stop taking propofol any time without showing withdrawal symptoms. this is the advantage of propofol.
people who abuse propofol are not physically dependent. they self-inject tiny doses many times throughout the day which wear off after a few minutes. when the drug wears off it can cause a kind of euphoria. it is this euphoria which propofol abusers get addicted to. mj was not abusing propofol, it does not go with the evidence.
known cases of propofol abuse are restricted to people working in the medical field, mostly anesthetists and nurses with access to this drug at their workplace.
The Healer
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PCR , I totaly agree with you.
Murray was there to keep Michael working no matter what.
I bet they told him : " Give him anything to keep this rolling. We have deadlines. "
There were numerous of stories going around of how Michael was doing. Some were saying that is not true and that is destroying Michael"s legacy.
The truth can"t destroy his legacy. He wanted a come-back for his fans. They saw a chance to make huge money and it became unstopabble. From 10 to 50.
There was no chance for Michael to bail out. They would sue him.
Damn TII.
Murray was there to keep Michael working no matter what.
I bet they told him : " Give him anything to keep this rolling. We have deadlines. "
There were numerous of stories going around of how Michael was doing. Some were saying that is not true and that is destroying Michael"s legacy.
The truth can"t destroy his legacy. He wanted a come-back for his fans. They saw a chance to make huge money and it became unstopabble. From 10 to 50.
There was no chance for Michael to bail out. They would sue him.
Damn TII.
athina_livadi
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Didn't we expect it from the start? That Murray would blame it all on Michael? It's not a surprise at all!
Please stop with the conspiracy theories and don't forget that Michael hated needles!
Self inject and drink propofol out of a juice box...I am an astronaut then...
Please stop with the conspiracy theories and don't forget that Michael hated needles!
Self inject and drink propofol out of a juice box...I am an astronaut then...
loveforever
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this. I think some people really want to label him as some kind of addict. Michael said he didn't like drugs. propofol is safe if monitored properly, which is the truth. all this man wanted is to Sleep so he could give his all to his tour, to please his fans.
The Healer
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Yes I did expect that.
I do not see a conspiracy talk here when I say the only thing on their mind was money and to keep Michael working no matter what.
If that was not the case, Michael would be here now.
When is the prelim to continue ?