Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

Yeah, I understand that, but what could have brought her to form this opinion/conclusion? Did she hear something that we didn't? How can a punishment go from 4 years in prison to community service?? I mean if he got the latter, that would be a huge slap in the face to everyone :(

okay

first this has to go to trial

if it goes to trial the outcome is decided by a group of jurors.

Like I said even before a trial, even without a selected jury, and even before hearing the arguments from each side no one can guess the outcome.

now that being said every trial has 2 possible outcomes - innocent and guilty.

that means that the outcome of Murray's trial can range between walking away free to 4 years in prison.

but again no one can say you the outcome of the trial but 12 jurors.
 
Yeah, I understand that, but what could have brought her to form this opinion/conclusion? Did she hear something that we didn't? How can a punishment go from 4 years in prison to community service?? I mean if he got the latter, that would be a huge slap in the face to everyone :(

Maybe it was that nonsense that Murray said to the detective?. maybe they think that he did not have a choice? Of course I do not agree with that.
 
I just hate the way Murray and his lawyers are trying to make Michael look. I just hate all of this. I know we are suppose to stay strong for Michael but it's hard. I am sorry if I sound weak. Murray is a pathological liar and everyday the things I hear make me more sick than they day before. I just pray he doesn't get away with this.
 
April 6,2009 10 single dose propofol vials ordered ( Focus on what he told Lee)

The next week :


"He said, `I don't like drugs. I don't want any drugs. My doctor told me this is a safe medicine,'" Lee said. The next day, she said she brought a copy of the Physician's Desk Reference to show him the section on Diprivan.
"He said, 'No, my doctor said it's safe. It works quick and it's safe as long as somebody's here to monitor me and wake me up. It's going be OK,'" Lee said. She said he did not give the doctor's name.



He was encouraging him to do it, he told him it was safe. Murray is a monstor , a MONSTER .

Notice , lorazepam and midazolam were always there , even before he was staying over night at MJ's house. EVIL , E.V.I.L . That man was capable of doing ANYTHING .
 
Maybe it was that nonsense that Murray said to the detective?. maybe they think that he did not have a choice? Of course I do not agree with that.

I didn't hear this on UStream, so I don't know the context it was said in ... maybe they were discussing a plea bargain?
 
So it begins.
Murray's lawyers will try and convince the jury and the public that the murderer, Conrad Murray, is the victim and that Michael Jackson abused "poor" Conrad Murray. :no:

Question: Was Michael Jackson's Life and his Message of Love and Peace valued only by his children and us fans?

If the answer is, yes, then this world deserves to go straight to Hell
with Conrad Murray, AEG, and Sony.
 
He said he gave Michael midazolam in his leg so that would femoral blood right? Guess what there is none another lie
 
Is Cherlyn Lee even going to testify? I don't necessarily take anything she says as accurate, unless she says it under oath and in that sense, we don't know WHAT she did or did not tell Michael, or what he told her. For one thing, I found it very strange that Michael didn't even have a PDR. He read a lot of medical books, and that's kind of a must-have? So, I'll wait to see what she says under oath, if she even testifies at all. To my mind, something was terribly "off" with the way she popped up, and then dropped out of sight. So we'll see if she gives testimony, and evaluate then?

That bit about "community service?" NOBODY could know that before a trial, and this is a prelim, and not a trial. As Ivy said, it's for a jury to decide a verdict, and we're not there yet.
 
So it begins.
Murray's lawyers will try and convince the jury and the public that the murderer, Conrad Murray, is the victim and that Michael Jackson abused "poor" Conrad Murray. :no:

Question: Was Michael Jackson's Life and his Message of Love and Peace valued only by his children and us fans?

If the answer is, yes, then this world deserves to go straight to Hell
with Conrad Murray, AEG, and Sony.

:better: I came to this board because I was interested in the "Breaking News" discussion. I explained in my very first post on here (and won't repeat all of it again, but if you are curious, you can go and read it) that I'm not really a fan, just a music fan - that's slowly changing though. ;) Then I saw all kinds of things on this forum that I had never heard before and got interested in them too. Read a lot in the last few months, started to read the 2005 trial transcripts (you have to be a bit crazy to do that, that's A LOT to read ;) ), because I wanted to see for myself. Almost done with it, but now this hearing is slowing me down.

I don't read tabloids, never have and never will. Once in a while you see stuff though, I just don't care, I also don't believe anything that tabloids write, I always thought that it's common knowledge that they just want to make a quick buck with all kinds of weird stories. And yet millions and millions of people read this stuff instead of ... I don't know, reading books about history or science.

Of course I was shocked on June 25, even more a few days later when the news about the Propofol broke and it got obvious that the doctor was very involved in his death. I'd be following the hearing even without being a member on here, would probably be lurking, or maybe I would have signed up a few days ago, but I was already here. I want to see justice, how can a doctor play with someone's life like that?
 
He said he gave Michael midazolam in his leg so that would femoral blood right? Guess what there is none another lie

It would have been in a vein, not a femoral artery. If a person is getting a lot of I.V.s, the locations can be rotated to different areas (back-of-hand, ankle, etc.) to preserve the veins from too much damage.
 
Autumn II - you raise a good point.

Brian Oxman was the first to frame the story of Michael's death. And I suspect that a lot of suspect persons took advantage of that and told/sold stories in keeping with that 'frame'.

As you said, until she gives her testimony under oath, I take what she said with a grain of salt.
 
They drew blood where Murray says he gave Michael the IV. My point is that he says he gave Michael Versed through an IV in his leg. Just like they found Propofol and Lorazepam in that femoral blood how come they did not find any Versed? That was my point not which vein does what
 
Is Cherlyn Lee even going to testify? I don't necessarily take anything she says as accurate, unless she says it under oath and in that sense, we don't know WHAT she did or did not tell Michael, or what he told her. For one thing, I found it very strange that Michael didn't even have a PDR. He read a lot of medical books, and that's kind of a must-have? So, I'll wait to see what she says under oath, if she even testifies at all. To my mind, something was terribly "off" with the way she popped up, and then dropped out of sight. So we'll see if she gives testimony, and evaluate then?

aha ?

you are waiting her to testify and when she testifies you will dismiss her testimony as you always do "we don't know , no one should trust her words.....we should wait until the trial starts"

The girlfriend delivered the most damaging testimony so far placing Murray beside MJ immediately before the last dose and you still insisted the "coughing could be anyone else, Murray's ....etc we should wait " again you dismissed the crucial evidence the most damaging evidence against murray for the sake of what exactly? Is someone else beside Murray and MJ even an option at this point of the investigation or you still have hope the "rest" would be charged?


I'm just trying to understand when this selective dismissal will stop. When we quote someone like Lee, who had a very similar story to Dr. Adams, to Dr.Metzeger , we are faced with the cliche :" we don't know , we should not trust her , why did she disappear....etc"

Logically, what was strange about her? she said MJ told her his doctor told him it was safe, look at the date of the first purchase of propofol , a week before MJ mentioned it to her. Is not that an evidence she was telling the truth? MJ asked Adams about propofol in March, asked Metzeger in April , but Lee was " not trust worthy becuase she appeared suddenly and disappeared suddenly". Will you also dismiss Adams story and Metzeger's?

She appeared only to say MJ was not a graving addict , he was a desperate insomniac. Those words bother you?


when we quote someone who testified under oath we are hammered with the cliche " we don't know , we should wait for the trial .....etc"

When we post link to medical sites explaining how propofol works...etc , we are being told STOP IT YOU DON'T KNOW, leave it to experts ?


When that will stop really?


by the way what do you make of the 20 midazolam vials and 20 lorazepam vials bought ?

Those were mentioned under oath , when will you "evaluate" them? or should we wait for the trial also?






As for Lee , Was Metzger lying too? Was Adams lying also?
 
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How is that Murray says he gave Michael Versed and Lorazepam through out the night to get him to sleep but if you look at the tox report you notice there is no Lorazepam in Michael's liver or his urine and Versed is only in Michael's urine and urine at the scene? Yet he gave Michael all of those drugs before Propofol and there is none in his liver?
 
. . .
Murray's attorney Ed Chernoff asked Martinez if Murray had spoken of Jackson asking to self-administer propofol. He answered yes.

"Mr. Jackson knew all about propofol before Dr. Murray came on the scene?" asked Chernoff.

"Yes," said Martinez.

The detective was asked if Jackson had sought to "push the propofol" himself and he said that was correct.

"Michael Jackson told Dr. Murray he liked to push it in himself and other doctors let him do that?" Chernoff asked.

"Yes," sad the witness.

"And Dr. Murray said he wouldn't let him do that?" Chernoff asked.

"Correct," answered the witness.

. . .
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7375301.html

I hope that the way the author of this article wrote the question/answer concerning what Michael knew or asked is wrong to what actually happened. This made it seem as if the investigator knew as fact that Michael had told about or asked about pushing in the propofol, etc. He would only know what Murray's version of events were.
 
I think they asked Murray that to get him to say it. So they could later find out there was no way in hell he could have done it. They set a trap and he walked right in it
 
exactly my point he surely suffered sleeplessness earlier too, but still kept going, why would he consider throwing everything he worked for away just 13/14 before the kick off? He would have cancelled the shows way b4 June 25, why wait until last minute? Again we're assuming Michael to be some sick, frail person

At this point, as you have said, we can't put too much stock in Murray's version of what was said and done.
 
oh by the way what do you make of the 20 midazolam vials and 20 lorazepam vilas bought ?

Those were mentioned under oath , when will you "evaluate" them?

As for Lee , Was Metzger lying too? Was Adams lying also?

I don't have enough expertise in pharmacology to make anything at all of it, other than that they were intended for Michael, for whatever reasons, and that seems like a large quantity. We don't know if Murray was intending to try to take that to London, or what? I'm sure there will be experts at the trial, though, i.e. toxicologists, etc. who will go through all the implications for a jury.

I have not heard/seen Metzger or Adams speak, so I really couldn't compare yet. As an anthropologist, I look at a person's demeanor as well as consider the words. My impression of Lee (on a number of talk-shows) was that she was probably not truthful. That's just my personal opinion, though. As the "fables" unfolded through testimony, now I see that she's ideal for the defense tactic of "Michael begged for it." So, as I said, IF she testifies, I will consider that with interest. But, she is not really the subject of this thread, since she's offered no testimony yet -- so I'm not going to elaborate on my observations here.
 
Last year I read this:
"Court records show police are currently investigating whether Jackson's personal physician Dr. Conrad Murray - who was with the 50-year-old singer when he died of a suspected cardiac arrest last month and gave him CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation) - had contact with other people in the medical field.
Search warrants for the investigation into Murray's Las Vegas properties show officers were allowed to remove emails, letters and notes between the physician, Jackson's former dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein, rheumatologist Allan Metzger, nurse practitioner Cherilyn Lee - who worked as Jackson's nutritionist earlier this year - dentist Mark Tadrissi, anaesthesiologist Randy Rosen and ear-nose-and-throat specialist David Slavit.
Concert promoter AEG Live - who were due to stage Jackson's 50 comeback shows in London - employed Slavit to perform a medical on Jackson ahead of the shows, to enable them to get insurance.
Jackson's link to Tadrissi is unknown, while he had reportedly been treated by Rosen in the past.
Klein, Metzger and Lee are believed to have been treating the singer in the period before his death."
I hope they call them to preliminary hearing, I really want to hear their stories. This case must go to trial.
 
In my opinion the most interesting witness we are yet to hear from is Adams beside ofcourse the coroner and the toxicology experts.
 
why is it that i say good things but have the feeling of being ignored all night..day 5..

and later i read other people also said what i posted and then all you respond to that...

did i ever do something? are my post stupid? i thought this one was quit a good point...


have a quistion though
trails "Did he begin using an IV. Yes. For what purpose? In either his right or left leg below the knee.
If michael had for al those weeks propofol or something else doesnt matter for my quistion he had an iv..
Is that iv put in every night? and put out in the morning? because i have a lot of ivs and the veins doesnt always take it anymore..
So every night for six weeks? there must be no vein left?
Or did michael rehearse with an iv in his leg???

And just 1 reaction...

Why are you all ignoring me?
 
ps a update from trail and tribulations

Guest Commentary on MJ Autopsy Report
T & T is pleased to offer guest commentary from KZ. KZ, a practicing nurse anesthetist, has offered knowledgeable commentary regarding the use of propofol and correct medical techniques. This is the first of two write-ups.
...................................

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/
 
1.you can not begg for propofol,it's not an addictive substance...
2.the fact that murray said michael wanted to sell administer is just stupid,why he would hire him then?he should just hire a nurse...and this could be a good trap placed by the prosecution
3.i don't believe the story with administer propofol every night for six weeks.getting an IV every night is ridiculous...moving, dancing would just cause incredible pain...
 
Along with everything else he said, I don't buy Murray's excuse about why he didn't call 911 right away. All those people in the house and he couldn't yell for somebody to call 911 because he didn't want to "neglect" Michael? I can't believe it.

All the other stuff Murray said was just to save his own butt IMO. He knew he would get in trouble and has been blaming everyone else (but especially Michael) for something that he did ever since IMO. I still say that Michael maybe cancelling the shows should not have stopped Murray from doing the ethical thing and not giving Michael anything that would threaten his health. Murray could have and should have quit or allowed himself to be fired rather than do what he did since he is so hot to blame Michael for everything. Murray could have marched right out the door and gone back to Las Vegas or Texas and went to his clinic and made his money. There is still no excuse for him with what happened to Michael. None. Period.
 
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1.you can not begg for propofol,it's not an addictive substance...
2.the fact that murray said michael wanted to sell administer is just stupid,why he would hire him then?he should just hire a nurse...and this could be a good trap placed by the prosecution
3.i don't believe the story with administer propofol every night for six weeks.getting an IV every night is ridiculous...moving, dancing would just cause incredible pain...

1)propofol is addictive, its proven. i think we(people on this board) had this convo before
2)can you please reword that cause i dont quite understand what you are saying. thanks ;)
3) i dont think recieving an iv is that painful. it may hurt some when its being put in, but thats about it.
 
3) i dont think recieving an iv is that painful. it may hurt some when its being put in, but thats about it.

Unfortuntely, that's not true. Most of the time you get a bruise, sometimes with more or less swelling, and that's pretty painful. And that 6 times a week for 6 weeks - that's a lot of bruises.
 
1.you can not begg for propofol,it's not an addictive substance...

3.i don't believe the story with administer propofol every night for six weeks.getting an IV
every night is ridiculous...moving, dancing would just cause incredible pain...
1. Maybe you cant become addicted, but at some point you will try to take anything to get some 'sleep'. MJ was up until 7 in the morning, with 3 days until the tour. You're bound to go crazy.
3. Well, they did order 15 liters of propofol, so where did it go?
 
Unfortuntely, that's not true. Most of the time you get a bruise, sometimes with more or less swelling, and that's pretty painful. And that 6 times a week for 6 weeks - that's a lot of bruises.

Yes, you do get somewhat of a bruise from the insertion of the i.v., but thats it. A patient should never really swell unless there was a problem inserting the i.v. From the people i know that have gotten i.v.'s, they said its painful when it is being put in and its probably uncomfortable while inserted, but thats about it. No one ever says its painful after its removed.
 
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