Preliminary Hearing 10/1/11. Day Five. Discussion Thread

[Petrarose]

I'm a few pages behind, but I remembered this pic the other day when Kai Chase mentioned that the food she'd left the night of the 24th hadn't been touched. Perhaps Michael had dinner while at Staples instead? We don't know what time this pic was taken exactly or if he actually ate anything, of course, but anyway ... possibilities:

Mjbunny, we can find out when this was taken, because there is a thread where the fans spoke of giving him the shirt and know what day he wore it. It is somewhere here in the archives.

 

[Milka]

Yes, Murray lies. But, maybe Michael DID fire him? That night? Murray is known to have anger-management problems (spousal abuse arrest, right?) How would we know that Michael did NOT fire him? We wouldn't. .

Do you see what I'm saying? I don't believe anything Murray says necessarily, but what if Michael felt it was just too much? With those massive sleep problems, maybe he felt the fifty shows were just not do-able at that point?

I'm just going by the testimony here. The witness said, "rehearsal," but also apparently said "SHOWS." Plural. So what if Michael told Murray that, and that he wouldn't be needed anymore? What then?

I know what you mean. Would make sense, we are just speculating of course, but there's the unsigned contract, and then didn't he tell the insurance guy that he is not allowed to share, what's that called again? The medical records, I think? That made me pause for a moment too, why wouldn't he be allowed if he is the doctor hired for the tour and this insurance business has to be sorted out sooner or later? Probably sooner?

Mjbunny, we can find out when this was taken, because there is a thread where the fans spoke of giving him the shirt and know what day he wore it. It is somewhere here in the archives.

Don't know where I saw this and I don't know if I remember correctly, but wasn't it June 24?

 

[ivy]

I'm just going by the testimony here. The witness said, "rehearsal," but also apparently said "SHOWS." Plural. So what if Michael told Murray that, and that he wouldn't be needed anymore? What then?

by all accounts Michael isn't a person that likes confrontation and he doesn't do his own firings.

Everyone fired in the past either is fired by another person in MJ's circle or received a letter telling them of their firing.

and we are speculating of course .

 

[twinklEE]

no I believe we're drifting too far away here..

 

[Petrarose]

Yes, Murray lies. But, maybe Michael DID fire him? That night? Murray is known to have anger-management problems (spousal abuse arrest, right?) How would we know that Michael did NOT fire him? We wouldn't. .

Do you see what I'm saying? I don't believe anything Murray says necessarily, but what if Michael felt it was just too much? With those massive sleep problems, maybe he felt the fifty shows were just not do-able at that point?

I'm just going by the testimony here. The witness said, "rehearsal," but also apparently said "SHOWS." Plural. So what if Michael told Murray that, and that he wouldn't be needed anymore? What then?

Oh my goodness, AUTUMN I think you have hit on something here. I was wondering if that night Murray asked Michael to sign the contract or why he did not sign it. However, this is not in the testimony so let me be quiet.

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

Mjbunny, we can find out when this was taken, because there is a thread where the fans spoke of giving him the shirt and know what day he wore it. It is somewhere here in the archives.

i remember the girl who gave it to him said, he wore it the last day of his life, the last ever time he was on stage he wore a t-shirt from a fan with a message to his fans. thats what she said

Don't know where I saw this and I don't know if I remember correctly, but wasn't it June 24?

yes

 

[Autumn II]

by all accounts Michael isn't a person that likes confrontation and he doesn't do his own firings.

Everyone fired in the past either is fired by another person in MJ's circle or received a letter telling them of their firing.

That's certainly been true in the past. I'm just thinking, if he was completely exhausted and said, "I CAN'T do the shows?" The testimony statement is ambiguous. It says "rehearsal," (singular), and then "shows." (plural, like a cancellation.) I think it's possible. . . So maybe he didn't say, "You're fired!" But being unable to do the shows would mean. . no need for Murray, anymore.

 

[summer]

Murray can say all kinds of things about what MJ supposedly said...it was just him and MJ in the room and MJ is not able to tell his side of the story. But as others have mentioned...he has already lied SO MUCH that what he says doesn't count much anymore really....

And again...

"Did he explain why he didn’t move MJ to the floor?

He said he could not move him to the floor by himself."


<EMBED height=390 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=640 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/ltjT25GyXTM&hl=de_DE&feature=player_embedded&version=3 allowScriptAccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">

Poor Dr. Murray....he REALLY wanted to help but...but....he just was too WEAK to lift/DRAG a 130 pound patient to the floor...But he REALLY wanted to help...but he REALLY just is too weak a person and just does not have that kind of muscle strength for it....REALLY!!













:mello:




I'd like to present Exhibit A. And I rest my case. -_-

 

[Justthefacts]

I am glad Murray told the cops that because now I am more then sure they went out of there way to make sure Michael could not self inject

 

[TarinJade]

Mjbunny, we can find out when this was taken, because there is a thread where the fans spoke of giving him the shirt and know what day he wore it. It is somewhere here in the archives.

Don't know where I saw this and I don't know if I remember correctly, but wasn't it June 24?

Yes, it was on the 24th. The picture looks to have been taken a little earlier in the evening as Michael was wearing a different jacket on Thriller and Earth Song.

Does anyone know for sure what time he arrived there that evening?

 

[Soundmind]

so either he's mixed up the times (says it was 11 when it was actually 12) or he was out of the room for 1 hour (indeed gave the propofol around 11 left the room and didn't return till around 12).

no, they are still going by "at 10:40 am he gave him 25mg of propofol via an IV drip"

Flagan asked the UCLA doctor " would 25mg have caused his death 40 minutes later?"

she asked him she does not know why would he even give 25mg . He said would it have lasted if given over 3, 4,5 ...minutes and she said NO .

 

[Petrarose]

i remember the girl who gave it to him said, he wore it the last day of his life, the last ever time he was on stage he wore a t-shirt from a fan with a message to his fans. thats what she said



yes

So then if he wore it that day, it would seem likely that he ate that day at the rehearsals. The shirt says "Curls for my girls." Oh, makes you want to cry. It is just too much.

 

[twinklEE]

Mihael supposedly nailed the performance on the 24th, I HIGHLY doubt he was considering throwing EVERYTHING away just b/c he couldn't sleep that night.
also some ppl use the words show/rehearsal synonymously, besides by assuming this is what happened we are believing that pathological liar sob

 

[Autumn II]

Oh my goodness, AUTUMN I think you have hit on something here. I was wondering if that night Murray asked Michael to sign the contract or why he did not sign it. However, this is not in the testimony so let me be quiet.

That's why I'm going on ONLY the testimony. It makes a difference, if Michael said he had to "cancel the next rehearsal," or cancel "the SHOWS." If he canceled the shows, there would be no need for Murray's expensive employment anymore?

 

[Milka]

Mihael supposedly nailed the performance on the 24th, I HIGHLY doubt he was considering throwing EVERYTHING away just b/c he couldn't sleep that night.

I'm sure it wasn't just that night.

 

[Petrarose]

Murray can say all kinds of things about what MJ supposedly said...it was just him and MJ in the room and MJ is not able to tell his side of the story. But as others have mentioned...he has already lied SO MUCH that what he says doesn't count much anymore really....

And again...

"Did he explain why he didn’t move MJ to the floor?

He said he could not move him to the floor by himself."


<EMBED height=390 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=640 src=http://www.youtube.com/v/ltjT25GyXTM&hl=de_DE&feature=player_embedded&version=3 allowScriptAccess="always" allowfullscreen="true">

Poor Dr. Murray....he REALLY wanted to help but...but....he just was too WEAK to lift/DRAG a 130 pound patient to the floor...But he REALLY wanted to help...but he REALLY just is too weak a person and just does not have that kind of muscle strength for it....REALLY!!













:mello:




I'd like to present Exhibit A. And I rest my case. -_-

Let's e-mail this picture to the DA and reference the comment about his inability to lift Michael to the floor. Thanks for this Summer.

 

[Autumn II]

I'm sure it wasn't just that night.

Obviously it was NOT only that night. Murray has said he was giving Michael propofol for MONTHS for insomnia. Clearly there was a problem. Michael was very tough, but he was also a human-being.

 

[ivy]

That's why I'm going on ONLY the testimony. It makes a difference, if Michael said he had to "cancel the next rehearsal," or cancel "the SHOWS." If he canceled the shows, there would be no need for Murray's expensive employment anymore?

The testimony is coming from a fast draft and it's not really that clear (and they do not have any accuracy claim). I wouldn't jump into conclusions.

He then said, that MJ would have to cancel his shows, cancel his rehearsals becuse he couldn&#8217;t sleep

- here he might have wrongly said shows when meaning rehearsals and later corrected it.

MJ said. It&#8217;s 3 days out from my tour. I have to get some sleep.

- here 3 days mentioned. it sounds like a small delay/ cancellation.

 

[Milka]

Obviously it was NOT only that night. Murray has said he was giving Michael propofol for MONTHS for insomnia. Clearly there was a problem. Michael was very tough, but he was also a human-being.

Yes, and try to function after only 2 or 3 days without sleep ...

 

[Petrarose]

Mihael supposedly nailed the performance on the 24th, I HIGHLY doubt he was considering throwing EVERYTHING away just b/c he couldn't sleep that night.
also some ppl use the words show/rehearsal synonymously, besides by assuming this is what happened we are believing that pathological liar sob

Also, apart from nailing the performance on the 24th, notice how happy he looks on the 24th, if that picture of him wearing the fan shirt was taken on that day. Michael was happy and smiling. What other story does Murray have?

 

[Autumn II]

The testimony is coming from a fast draft and it's not really that clear (and they do not have any accuracy claim). I wouldn't jump into conclusions.



- here he might have wrongly said shows when meaning rehearsals and later corrected it.



- here 3 days mentioned. it sounds like a small delay/ cancellation.

Okey dokey. I wonder if there will be transcripts, the way there were for the trial?

 

[twinklEE]

I'm sure it wasn't just that night.

exactly my point he surely suffered sleeplessness earlier too, but still kept going, why would he consider throwing everything he worked for away just 13/14 before the kick off? He would have cancelled the shows way b4 June 25, why wait until last minute? Again we're assuming Michael to be some sick, frail person

 

[twinklEE]

The testimony is coming from a fast draft and it's not really that clear (and they do not have any accuracy claim). I wouldn't jump into conclusions

my sentiments exactly,

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

So then if he wore it that day, it would seem likely that he ate that day at the rehearsals. The shirt says "Curls for my girls." Oh, makes you want to cry. It is just too much.

I know :sad: I cried today, reading all this stuff. It is too much.

Michael is dead. Three children are without their parent, meanwhile this woman, PR for Murray's team, is tweeting things like this:

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
First day of the Dr. Murray prelim, wish us luck!
4 Jan

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
TMZ hates Murray's tie. So much for my Christmas gift!
6 Jan

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
Murray preliminary- week 2 . Team is feeling optimistic.
9 hours ago

This is what she tweeted on the 26th June 2009:

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
I want to remember MJ as he was in Thriller- height of his talent and star power
26 Jun 09

Ugh.

 

[twinklEE]

eff her along with her murdering client and those two clowns defending him

 

[Milka]

exactly my point he surely suffered sleeplessness earlier too, but still kept going, why would he consider throwing everything he worked for away just 13/14 before the kick off? He would have cancelled the shows way b4 June 25, why wait until last minute? Again we're assuming Michael to be some sick, frail person

No, this has nothing to do with being "sick and frail". That's definitely not what I mean. I'm just speculating. Also, when you are, I don't know, 20, and don't get enough sleep, that's a lot easier than at 50, which has nothing to do with being sick or frail either.

But again, I'm just speculating, because something seemed to be different that night (soup untouched), and that day (Murray didn't get breakfast for Michael). And like others have said, why Propofol at around 11 am or noon, when he had to get up soon anyway? I'm just wondering if it all was just an "accident" or if - with all those weird details coming out - there could be some kind of motive.

 

[Petrarose]

I know :sad: I cried today, reading all this stuff. It is too much.

Michael is dead. Three children are without their parent, meanwhile this woman, PR for Murray's team, is tweeting things like this:

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
First day of the Dr. Murray prelim, wish us luck!
4 Jan

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
TMZ hates Murray's tie. So much for my Christmas gift!
6 Jan

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
Murray preliminary- week 2 . Team is feeling optimistic.
9 hours ago

This is what she tweeted on the 26th June 2009:

Mirandamedia Miranda Sevcik
I want to remember MJ as he was in Thriller- height of his talent and star power
26 Jun 09

Ugh.

Well I want to remember him as he was throughout his life especially on June 24. To her he is foremost an entertainer. To us, he is first a human being. What a ******#$. Thank God I do not curse!!

 

[Soundmind]

he asked me and begged me and I had no intention to give propofol and only wanted to sedate him with benzos that night is a complete BS. wait tell the coroner take the stand and start speaking about the urine at the scene .

MJ did not threaten to cancel anything, that's another excuse by Murray. That was another "routine" day , but Murray screwed up everything eventually.

 

[Milka]

Okey dokey. I wonder if there will be transcripts, the way there were for the trial?

I think they mentioned that on UStream today, that they are trying to get the transcripts or are already working on that.

 

[Petrarose]

No, this has nothing to do with being "sick and frail". That's definitely not what I mean. I'm just speculating. Also, when you are, I don't know, 20, and don't get enough sleep, that's a lot easier than at 50, which has nothing to do with being sick or frail either.

But again, I'm just speculating, because something seemed to be different that night (soup untouched), and that day (Murray didn't get breakfast for Michael). And like others have said, why Propofol at around 11 am or 12 am, when he had to get up soon anyway? I'm just wondering if it all was just an "accident" or if - with all those weird details coming out - there could be some kind of motive.

I will go out on a limb here and say there was a motive. I cannot conceive any doctor making so many mistakes, being so careless, sloppy, stupid, untidy, ignorant--all at the same time. Two or three problems, OK, but not so many in one person. What is the law of averages for this. I am sorry no one can be all these negative things at the same time. There has to be a different reason. I do not know what that reason is and hope it will come out in the trial.