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lets talk abortion!

it doesn' tmatter that a choice is at risk...makingabortion illegal...cuz a man won' thave to have one so they don't care.

but OMG don't take away their guns.

we make it so hard for a woman to get off assistance. she has free insurance, a break in her rent, food stamps, and money to help her...if she gets a job, she needs to buy her own insurance, her rent goes up,she loses her food stamps and she doesn't get daycare assistance...

yet we wanna get rid of welfare. great
 
soso deaf said:
this is never a constructive discussion b/c for everyone who DOES cooperate, there's always a few who make it impossible....

comparing a baby to a victim in a coma? that person HAS LIVED....a baby has not.

that's like saying if we legalize gay marriage people will start having sex w/ animals...it's not a natural and logical sequence of events.


sorry but those who are pro life need to start adopting the babies that aren't wanted b/c this 'they'll find a good home' speech works for no one...if that were true, y are there so many foster children? and teh women who abused drugs and alcohol while carry ing a child.....those children are even harder to place.

it's a woman's choice...

and friend, sure u can CHOOSE to protect urself but if the condom breaks and the male splits, what r u gonna do? a man can CHOOSE to stay or leave....a woman cannot.

and that's y abortion is an issue...a man will neverhave to get one so it doesn'tmatter
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Soso! You are SO DEAD ON!! This is PRECISELY why this is a WOMAN's issue. And what you said about "a man can CHOOSE to stay or leave....a woman cannot"....RIGHT ON the MONEY.
 
soso deaf said:
it doesn' tmatter that a choice is at risk...makingabortion illegal...cuz a man won' thave to have one so they don't care.

but OMG don't take away their guns.

we make it so hard for a woman to get off assistance. she has free insurance, a break in her rent, food stamps, and money to help her...if she gets a job, she needs to buy her own insurance, her rent goes up,she loses her food stamps and she doesn't get daycare assistance...

yet we wanna get rid of welfare. great
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i don't think all men are like that. and all prolife people are not against welfare or other forms of assistance either. i've been a single mom, i well know all the expenses to running a home. i'm doing it now.
 
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LindaC781 said:
Men will never need to get an abortion due to BASIC PHYSIOLOGY. The BABY is HOUSED in the woman's body - not the man's!! Do you see the point SoSo was making here??
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soso answered my question, thanks for your assistance Linda.
 
This IS a MAN vs WOMAN argument. A NATURAL BORN MAN will NEVER physiologically be able to HOUSE a baby....but a WOMAN CAN. Therefore, a MAN will NEVER have to seek out an abortion. A WOMAN has to. And the CHOICE of being pregnant or not should be up to the WOMAN! NOT any MAN, whether it be PART OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, the BAPTIST CHURCH, the CHURCH OF GOD, or the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR the SUPREME COURT!!
 
i disagree this is a woman vs man argument. this is a baby's right to life vs. a woman's right to choose issue. this issue, as has been demonstrated by others who posted earlier, neither is it a Church vs state issue, as even those with no connection to God still have issues with taking an unborn babies life.
 
friend said:
i disagree this is a woman vs man argument. this is a baby's right to life vs. a woman's right to choose issue. this issue, as has been demonstrated by others who posted earlier, neither is it a Church vs state issue, as even those with no connection to God still have issues with taking an unborn babies life.
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Here is a definition of "baby" for you. A "baby" is one that can live independently from it's mother. Do you think a fetus that is about 5 weeks along could constitute that definition of "baby"? So, we are not talking "baby" here. It isn't even a FETUS at this stage when MOST ABORTIONS occur.

From http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424

Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo.
 
right a woman's right to choose what to do w/ her body...so she can either see the embryo/fetus as a parasite or as a child.

so i'd rather a woman eliminate the cause of her anger or depression than harm it while in utero and it becomes a life that needs assistance and support (via brain and dev. issues) for the rest of its life. i work w/ sev. disabled adults and that's no way to live...abused by their parents and all and the system. 90% of them have been sexually abused in some way and that's usually by STATE employees and group homes.

so don't think it's all roses. it's not.
 
LindaC781 said:
Here is a definition of "baby" for you. A "baby" is one that can live independently from it's mother. Do you think a fetus that is about 5 weeks along could constitute that definition of "baby"? So, we are not talking "baby" here. It isn't even a FETUS at this stage when MOST ABORTIONS occur.

From http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424

Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception (when the major structures have formed) until birth. Up until the eighth week, the developing offspring is called an embryo.
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and so we do go the religion of science to justify it? what do i consider it? i consider it a forming unborn child.
 
friend said:
and so we do go the religion of science to justify it? what do i consider it? i consider it a forming unborn child.
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With all due respect, you can call it what you want - the medical definition is posted here for you. This is the definition that not only medical personell go by, but lawyers, judges, and other institutions go by when they want to know what it is at the 5th week. And at the 5th week, it is an embryo. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
LindaC781 said:
With all due respect, you can call it what you want - the medical definition is posted here for you. This is the definition that not only medical personell go by, but lawyers, judges, and other institutions go by when they want to know what it is at the 5th week. And at the 5th week, it is an embryo. Nothing more, nothing less.
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i'm well aware how it has managed to be legalized through the use of these definitions.
 
i'm sorry but to simply call this a man vs. woman issue is ignorant in my view. this is a mother of an ethical dilemma. "pro-choice" doesn't mean "pro-abortion" - think of all the complexities involved.

and science is not a religion, friend. nor has science justified it - in fact, biology overall helps the argument against abortion.
 
So, "friend" - do I understand you correctly? If your 13 year old CHILD was forcibly raped, you would traumatize her even more by forcing her to go through 9 months of an unwanted pregnancy?? Wow. I know that if MY daughter ever had that happen to her, I would do everything in my power to restore her childhood. First off, I'd have her get an abortion, then I'd have her go through counseling. All the while making sure that she knew it was NOT her fault. Not in the slightest.
 
Linda, so far you don't understand me at all. don't try to strong arm me. my position is as valid as you believe yours to be.
 
u guys....the idea of abortion is the choice surrounding it.

legallizing it didn't make us murderers, it simply gave people more options. if they choose it, that's their fate, their destiny, and their souls.
 
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I know both sides are passionette about their views, but please try to be respectful :) i know you dont mean to be rude..but sometimes it can come across that way. i want this thread to go on for a long time because i find it interesting, as im sure others do also. :wink:

 
arXter said:
i'm sorry but to simply call this a man vs. woman issue is ignorant in my view. this is a mother of an ethical dilemma. "pro-choice" doesn't mean "pro-abortion" - think of all the complexities involved.

and science is not a religion, friend. nor has science justified it - in fact, biology overall helps the argument against abortion.
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neither does prolife mean unmerciful and not recognizing exceptions. as to science as a religion, it does require a certain amount of faith, as science is not yet evolved to the level of answering all of life's mysteries yet, and can only present what it can prove. at this point it cannot prove the exact moment when life begins, which is why this debate is still on the table.
 
friend said:
neither does prolife mean unmerciful and not recognizing exceptions. as to science as a religion, it does require a certain amount of faith, as science is not yet evolved to the level of answering all of life's mysteries yet, and can only present what it can prove. at this point it cannot prove the exact moment when life begins, which is why this debate is still on the table.
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of course science requires faith (as do many things in life), that does not by any means make it some sort of religion - it is simply knowledge of the physical universe. faith in science is based on the most logical hypothesis, as opposed to believing in something you're not meant to prove - what i call blind faith. faith is not synonymous with religion.

as for proving the "exact moment when life begins" - that is a very hazy statement. science provides detailed evidence/explanations of how a human being forms biologically/chemically. whether you want to go on a spiritual/theological level on how/when a life "begins", that is nothing to do with science. we know that from the genetic make-up of the very first human zygote (first cell after fertilisation), that the potential for that foetus is already established and the only thing that can hinder it are unexpected mutations and outside damage.

this debate would still be on the table if you got an answer to whatever you think your question means.
 
arXter said:
as for proving the "exact moment when life begins" - that is a very hazy statement. science provides detailed evidence/explanations of how a human being forms biologically/chemically. whether you want to go on a spiritual/theological level on how/when a life "begins", that is nothing to do with science. we know that from the genetic make-up of the very first human zygote (first cell after fertilisation), that the potential for that foetus is already established and the only thing that can hinder it are unexpected mutations and outside damage.
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just clarifying... so therefore it is a "living" cell that is forming life? or life has already begun upon fertilization?
 
science and faith go hand in hand....one proves the other.

but this is about a person, who is already of the age to conceive, making a choice about terminating the 'development' of something that is weeks old
 
I've written my views of abortion when it comes to rape in an earlier post, but I feel that it should be a choice of the victim rather than everyone else forcing the decision on them. For those who think a rape victim should be made to have the child, have you ever been sexually abused or raped? You can't judge the victim whether you have been or not because everyone is different. Rape isn't something that is easy to deal with mentally, physically, or emotionally, and it can lead to the victim attempting or committing suicide. It takes a lot from you, and it's not fair to force the person to have that child. Technically, under Delaware state law, I was raped when I was two, and I have the memories and explicit flashbacks that I deal with...no, I never saw any therapist, etc. that helped "recover" those memories...they were always there. I have also been sexually abuse three other times. I would personally have the child if I ever got pregnant, but I also know that I couldn't judge someone because they didn't choose to have the child. That abuse has taken a lot from me, and it has been hard enough WITHOUT getting pregnant from any of those guys...even though it wasn't possible when I was two. Until it happens to you, you have no right to tell them or force them to do what you feel ought to be because the magnitude of the pain, the shame, the hurt, the memories, anger, etc. is so strong, and the memories and feelings haunt you for the rest of your life whether you get help or not. A baby added to the equation...that could be too much to handle for many. Don't place the blame on the victim and punish them for what happened. The sex in rape obviously isn't consensual, and it's not the woman's fault that there was no protection, that she got raped, or that she was ovulating at the time...she's powerless. It's easy for someone to tell someone what to do if they haven't lived through it, but when it actually happens, believe me, it's different. After getting raped, a woman is in no shape to deal with a pregnancy from her attacker. Sure, the baby doesn't deserve the blame either, but the situation is VERY complicated, and you have to remember what has actually taken place. Like I said, if I were raped, I'd personally have the child, but that's just me. If I heard of a woman that got an abortion because it was the result of a rape, I know I'm against abortion personally, but I can't judge her or take her right of choice away. The rape itself is enough trauma, and the things the woman feels and goes through after the rape is traumatizing and really bad as well...and that's without a baby involved.
 
friend said:
i have spoken to men who did not know their wives were pregnant until after an abortion had already happened, and they were devastated. they wanted the child. which brings up another issue about rights, and notifications. all the power is within the hands of one person in this situation when they are not the only ones affected.
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But that's the thing... it's not the man's choice to decide what the woman does with her body.

If they want to have children they need to discuss it with their female partner as opposed to just trying to plant a seed and hoping something happens.
That example is not a failure or success of the right to abort or not.... but rather it is an example of the failure of two people to communicate openly with one another.




LindaC781 said:
So, "friend" - do I understand you correctly? If your 13 year old CHILD was forcibly raped, you would traumatize her even more by forcing her to go through 9 months of an unwanted pregnancy?? Wow. I know that if MY daughter ever had that happen to her, I would do everything in my power to restore her childhood. First off, I'd have her get an abortion, then I'd have her go through counseling. All the while making sure that she knew it was NOT her fault. Not in the slightest.
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even though I support your stance on pro-choice Linda, I can't say that I support your choice to give an abortion to a 13 year old child purely because you are her mother and want to restore her childhood, that could cause all sorts of emotional trauma between the two of you. I would like to think that in that situation people run to their doctors and planned parenting and everywhere else possible to work together as mother and young daughter to come up with a solution that best suits the child.
 
L.J said:
But that's the thing... it's not the man's choice to decide what the woman does with her body.

If they want to have children they need to discuss it with their female partner as opposed to just trying to plant a seed and hoping something happens.
That example is not a failure or success of the right to abort or not.... but rather it is an example of the failure of two people to communicate openly with one another.
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yes, i would agree with that if everyone was being open and honest, but that is not always how it is, and it is not always the man who is not open and honest.
 
friend said:
just clarifying... so therefore it is a "living" cell that is forming life? or life has already begun upon fertilization?
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"living" (as many definitions as one can attribute to that word) in science would mean organic-wise both the haploid cells and the resulting zygote are obviously "living" cells. what i am saying is that once you form that very first diploid cell after fertalisation (including the essential randomness that make us individuals - indepenent assortment, crossing over), at that very moment you have the new DNA make-up for that "new" human being. from the very first cell, the DNA tells you how that human will develop barring any mutations or outside interference as i described.

i hope this made sense.... i'd really want to rephrase if it didn't because it is a simple concept with regards to this topic.
 
Neala Radhe said:
I've written my views of abortion when it comes to rape in an earlier post, but I feel that it should be a choice of the victim rather than everyone else forcing the decision on them. For those who think a rape victim should be made to have the child, have you ever been sexually abused or raped? You can't judge the victim whether you have been or not because everyone is different. Rape isn't something that is easy to deal with mentally, physically, or emotionally, and it can lead to the victim attempting or committing suicide. It takes a lot from you, and it's not fair to force the person to have that child. Technically, under Delaware state law, I was raped when I was two, and I have the memories and explicit flashbacks that I deal with...no, I never saw any therapist, etc. that helped "recover" those memories...they were always there. I have also been sexually abuse three other times. I would personally have the child if I ever got pregnant, but I also know that I couldn't judge someone because they didn't choose to have the child. That abuse has taken a lot from me, and it has been hard enough WITHOUT getting pregnant from any of those guys...even though it wasn't possible when I was two. Until it happens to you, you have no right to tell them or force them to do what you feel ought to be because the magnitude of the pain, the shame, the hurt, the memories, anger, etc. is so strong, and the memories and feelings haunt you for the rest of your life whether you get help or not. A baby added to the equation...that could be too much to handle for many. Don't place the blame on the victim and punish them for what happened. The sex in rape obviously isn't consensual, and it's not the woman's fault that there was no protection, that she got raped, or that she was ovulating at the time...she's powerless. It's easy for someone to tell someone what to do if they haven't lived through it, but when it actually happens, believe me, it's different. After getting raped, a woman is in no shape to deal with a pregnancy from her attacker. Sure, the baby doesn't deserve the blame either, but the situation is VERY complicated, and you have to remember what has actually taken place. Like I said, if I were raped, I'd personally have the child, but that's just me. If I heard of a woman that got an abortion because it was the result of a rape, I know I'm against abortion personally, but I can't judge her or take her right of choice away. The rape itself is enough trauma, and the things the woman feels and goes through after the rape is traumatizing and really bad as well...and that's without a baby involved.
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:applause: yes I know it would be 9 months of more torture. but...from a religious point of view...suffering is very redemptive...i like giving my suffereing up for other souls also. i think you should let GOD show you what you can do if you are in that situation, and give you His strength through the pain. but i know thats asking a lot. and at the same time...youre right. i cant judge. and i know an Athiest understandably would find that arguement i gave offensive and/or laughable, b/c of their point of view. if a victum was raped, and would go insane if she had to deal with 9 months of hell...theres the morning after pill and abortion in the early stages. im absolutely against late-term abortions, because of the pain the child and possibly the mother would have to endure. and I do feel for these women...you and they are true SURVIVORS. :flowers: I dont know what it would do to me if i got raped...that would be a nightmare...baby or not!

 
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