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lets talk abortion!

abortion is such a difficult subject.
I think abortion should be allowed.
That way, everyone can choose if they want it or not.

smoothcriminal12 said:
I don't know...the slaughter of an unborn baby sounds wrong to me...:no::unsure:
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It sounds wrong to me too and I don't think I'd ever do it in my life.
But if abortion is prohibited, what do people, who want an abortion (for any reason... rape, teenage pregnancy,...) do?
Illegal abortion does excist and all stories I heard about it weren't very positive. It often goes wrong. That's why I think it should be legal and people should have the choose to go to a hospital and get a proper treatment.
That's just my opinion.
 
Bob George said:
Basically he says that death is declared when your brain waves stop functioning, so why shouldn't life be declared when your brain waves start functioning? That time is said to be about 40 days after conception.
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that's the 'personhood' view, which includes the consciousness arguments put across in this thread and the one before it.

but that bloke is making it out to be so irrationally simple...

firstly, he is comparing a hopeless adult in a dead or vegetative state to a foetus with the absolute potential to develop everything as planned by its permanent genetic makeup (already formed shortly after fertilisation).

and secondly, if you want to support abortion according to the mental capacity of the foetus, then where do you draw the line? there are many stages of mental development which blurs the point of when a human becomes a 'person' (this is in accordance to that particular argument above, since most pro-lifers don't even reach the 'personhood' theory because they oppose the destruction of the very first embryonic cell).

so to get back to those developmental stages, merely detecting neurological activity surely can't be enough? because other animals have brains and develop a lot of similar activity, and yet they are not persons. this is where consciousness comes in, and that is a highly disputed area in philosophy (which also means it's very scientifically unclear) as to when higher brain capacities (like thought) develop, but it's obviously at a very late stage in pregnancy and some even say it's after birth.

so does that mean the human foetus (or maybe even an infant) with yet no thought/conscious capacity is not a person and therefore doesn't have the same rights as a person?
 
a person is declared dead when? when their heart stops? so a life begins when? when their heart starts? at what stage does a fetus' heart beat?

i found answer
http://www.aaacpc.com/pre-natal.html
says modern technology can detect it at 18 days. that's as good as technology currently is, it could be earlier still.

Other interesting information the site provided:

-Once a human egg is fertilized by sperm, there now exists a new human being. All of the information about the baby's sex, hair color, eye color and much more is present from that moment. Nothing else will be added to this little person except time and nutrition.
 
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It's definitely not easy to determine when a baby is granted the same basic human rights as the rest of us. At conception? At birth? Somewhere in between? The declaration of human rights does say, "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights." So does that mean you aren't granted human rights until you're born? We could look at it as black and white as that. It's pretty irrefutable. The declaration of human rights clearly grants human rights to those who are born. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

That could be the answer. It could be that simple. The UN declares human rights to the born. Done. But, that still doesn't do it for me.

I just don't feel right supporting the abortion of unborn babies who have their own genetic make-up, a functioning brain, a heart beat, fingerprints. Who here has felt a pregnant woman's belly and felt the baby kick? To me, it doesn't get much more human than that.

It's such a tough issue. But for me, I still put myself on the pro-choice side. You can't force a woman who doesn't want a baby to have one. That's how you end up with failed home abortion that end in two lives lost (the mother and the child) instead of just one. So I can't steer myself away from the pro-choice side no matter how uneasy I feel about the killing of unborn babies.

But as undecided I seem on the issue of abortion, I can definitely say I am against late-term (elective) abortions. That's just sick. The earlier, the better. And I'm against state funding for abortion clinics. Why can't that money go to promoting alternatives to abortion like adoption and to educating people about the precautions they can take to prevent unwanted pregnancies? I also think there should be a tougher process for applying for an abortion. I think women seeking an abortion should at least be made aware of the alternatives and encouraged to take an alternative route if the abortion is not absolutely necessary.
 
Roxanne said:
i'm 100% for abortion. u cant have a baby that u dont wanna have. it would ruin ur life and also ur baby's life.
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If you don't want a child use protection or more importantly don't spread your legs. I realize sometimes even with protection accidents happen but more often then not it is due to human error. Why should a child be sentenced to death because you don't care about them? Don't get in that position to begin with. This is simple education. Don't play with fire if you don't wanna get burned. Others shouldn't suffer because of your personal mistakes.

Haven't watched the video yet. That law that was reversed funds abortions abroad? Got enough issues right here to deal with :doh:

Abortions have a time and place (rape/death of the mother or child/etc.) but to use them for your own selfish reasons or birthcontrol is sheer ignorance. Education needs to be pushed. Hell a lil morals might go a long way too.

But without education there is no hope.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights
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Once a egg and sperm meet can it not be considered a life is born? Born also means "something is a new and important creation" Seems to me born includes the life in the womb.
 
Shannon said:
If you don't want a child use protection or more importantly don't spread your legs. I realize sometimes even with protection accidents happen but more often then not it is due to human error. Why should a child be sentenced to death because you don't care about them? Don't get in that position to begin with. This is simple education. Don't play with fire if you don't wanna get burned. Others shouldn't suffer because of your personal mistakes.
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well, i agree with u totally. my post was referring to accidents or cases of rape. a child should be wanted by both parties and both parties should be ready to become parents and have the pregnancy planned.
i dont think of abortion as murder. on the other hand, killing poor animals for food or clothing or any other reason is considered to be okay by most ppl yet that is murder. animals have souls too like every living creature.
 
Roxanne said:
well, i agree with u totally. my post was referring to accidents or cases of rape. a child should be wanted by both parties and both parties should be ready to become parents and have the pregnancy planned.
i dont think of abortion as murder. on the other hand, killing poor animals for food or clothing or any other reason is considered to be okay by most ppl yet that is murder. animals have souls too like every living creature.
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So when Jesus provided fish he was murdering? lol This could go round and round. Killing a baby doesn't provide food or clothing for anyone. You can't even compare the two.
 
There has to be a choice. If I really wanted an abortion, I would get one illegaly, which would be more dangerous than having one done professionally.
While I'm somewhat religious, you have to understand that there are at lot of people who aren't. Why try to instill and enforce your morals on to others? Let there be choice. Let me decide what I want to do with, what is essentionally, my life and my livelihood. My views may be different to yours, so don't take the choice away. If you don't agree with it, you don't have to to do it. Just like smoking, you're allowed it, but if you disagree with it, or don't like it, you just don't smoke. You don't go around saying we should ban smoking, do you? (and that's something that actually does passively affect you)
Like I said, if I wanted an abortion, I would find a way to get one. That's human. So don't take the choice away.
(Replying to OP)
 
first of all...im really glad to see my thread is up and running again! I love reading about both points of view :)

friend said:
-Once a human egg is fertilized by sperm, there now exists a new human being. All of the information about the baby's sex, hair color, eye color and much more is present from that moment. Nothing else will be added to this little person except time and nutrition.
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according to this, the steralized egg is a human being. personally i agree. no matter what state a human being is in, it is still a human being, and killing a human being is discusting and wrong. plain and simple.

Shannon said:
If you don't want a child use protection or more importantly don't spread your legs. Others shouldn't suffer because of your personal mistakes.
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exactly. just dont do it. if your not ready for it dont risk it. lives would be spared that way. its not fair for the baby to die because you just couldnt help yourself. is one amazing sexual experience worth more then a human life?

Lassan said:
There has to be a choice. If I really wanted an abortion, I would get one illegaly, which would be more dangerous than having one done professionally.
While I'm somewhat religious, you have to understand that there are at lot of people who aren't. Why try to instill and enforce your morals on to others? Let there be choice. Let me decide what I want to do with, what is essentionally, my life and my livelihood. My views may be different to yours, so don't take the choice away. If you don't agree with it, you don't have to to do it. Just like smoking, you're allowed it, but if you disagree with it, or don't like it, you just don't smoke. You don't go around saying we should ban smoking, do you? (and that's something that actually does passively affect you)
Like I said, if I wanted an abortion, I would find a way to get one. That's human. So don't take the choice away.
(Replying to OP)
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good point, Lassan. its wrong to enforce any kind of views on anyone. the thing im interested in is a life being spared, because it deserves to be allive. its sad that a beautiful human being has to be considered nothing but a burden before it is even born, and be killed because if it. if the baby was able to talk and understand, he/she would want to be allive. i do sympathize with the women who go through hell because of it, i know i cant comprehend it, but its sad to me. and there is always abortion. ;) places like the mother house and others are willing to help and give options and help with the money, without being closed minded an rude. I know some pro-lifers are beyond rude, but not all.
 
Guys and girls should be responsible for ALWAYS carrying protection!
then, many unwanted pregnansies would probably not have happened? Condoms are easy to get, cheap and it shouldn't be much of a hassle for both parties to remember to put it on!


Or, don't have sex.

Or, have all the babies that will come along with unprotected sex. (If you're one of those that gets easily sperminated)

Or, have abortions and live with the responsibilities and thoughts that comes after.


Freedom is a wonderful thing for each living individual.
 
Shannon said:
So when Jesus provided fish he was murdering? lol This could go round and round. Killing a baby doesn't provide food or clothing for anyone. You can't even compare the two.
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an embryo is not a baby. watch out for the correct terms here. and yes killing an animal for whatever reason is unacceptable imo. i dont care who did it. i believe that every living creature on this planet has soul not just the human kind. how would u like it if there was a species more developed than us and was killing us for food or clothing or anything else ? not very good i suppose. the way u put it "Killing a baby doesn't provide food or clothing for anyone" is like saying that if it did provide food or clothing it'd be ok to kill it.
everyone has the right to live. not just humans. killing animals is a more important issue than the abortion because it has to do with killing a creature that has already been born. yet most ppl look at the abortion as murder and ignore the killing of animals. this is my point here.
also on another note here, u cant tell anyone to not have sex just because there is a 1% chance even with protection to get pregnant. sex is an important part of life. ppl should have sex but with all the precautions. guys should be extra careful too.
i try to be as fair as possible on all sides here and have an open-mind. theres topics like this one that are controversial meaning theres no right side and wrong side. both sides are right and at the same time both sides are wrong. i see ur points and i totally agree but on the other hand i agree with the other side as well that says that abortion should be used in cases of unwanted pregnancy for important reasons :flowers:
 
terms are important Roxanne, I agree, but the pro-lifer sees the embryo that you see as a mass of nothing as a human baby, just not yet fully formed. the pro-lifer sees a baby from the moment of conception. you don't and that is why there is a splitting of paths between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. you can correct the terminology, but you can't change the mind just because of the words used. embryo is just a scientific term that is used to define the stage of development of life, but does not make it any less a life, or to the pro-lifer, any less a human baby.

on the point of the 1% chance of still getting pregnant, the 50 million abortions that are performed in the U.S. alone every year is not fully attributable to the 1% of people who's condoms didn't work. there are statistics earlier in the thread.
 
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Shannon said:
So when Jesus provided fish he was murdering?
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well if one was to oppose destroying a human embryo (we are scientifically animals),


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our genetic similarities with other species are awe-inspiring. and especially at the early stages of an embryo, our functions and development with other animals are very similar.
 
friend said:
terms are important Roxanne, I agree, but the pro-lifer sees the embryo that you see as a mass of nothing as a human baby, just not yet fully formed. the pro-lifer sees a baby from the moment of conception. you don't and that is why there is a splitting of paths between pro-lifers and pro-choicers. you can correct the terminology, but you can't change the mind just because of the words used. embryo is just a scientific term that is used to define the stage of development of life, but does not make it any less a life, or to the pro-lifer, any less a human baby.

on the point of the 1% chance of still getting pregnant, the 50 million abortions that are performed in the U.S. alone every year is not fully attributable to the 1% of people who's condoms didn't work. there are statistics earlier in the thread.
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yes ur right. truth is that in this kind of topics we can only speculate. it always comes down to one's personal belief and point of view. we dont know whats the real deal. we dont know if there are souls to begin with. we choose to believe there are. others choose to believe that there are not. we, that believe that there are souls, can either believe that souls are given to someone in the moment of conception or in the moment of birth. or somewhere in between. some of us believe that souls are only for humans when others believe that souls have all living creatures. its all a matter of belief. thats why im saying that there is no right and wrong here. its not one of those black and white topics. its actually a topic which is very debatable and good points can be raised by both sides.
in my posts i was trying to point out the hypocrisy of the world the way i personally see it.
they are opposed to terminate an embryo's life but they're not opposed to killing animals.

yes i know that most of the abortions are not attributable to accidents but to ppl's mistakes and bad choices. thats why i said and emphasized that abortions imo should only be performed to unwanted pregnancies. having said that i suppose that ppl who dont want pregnancy will take the precautions. if they dont i suppose should either have an abortion or should have not depending on their case. because each case is different i cant really say whether they should or should not have one. they should be the judges of that.
 
The problem is that guys are not asking girls if they're responsible persons before they ask them to spread their legs.

The problem is that sexual education is not given everywhere but girls are everywhere getting pregnant often when spreading their legs for guys.

The problem is that ppl do have sex without knowing eachother.

The problem is that guys do not get pregnant and that's why simply don't care often.

The problem is that many many girls don't have self esteem enough to say no, so they just spread their legs.

The problem is not many girls do have parents telling honestly about sex and that's why they spread their legs without thinking.

The problem is not every 'not wanted' child will be born healthy and perfect so that average Joe and average Jane want to adopt it.

The problem is that not every 'wanted' child and even if that is only for getting child support is perfectly healthy and non problematic... they don't know how to deal with alcoholic or just weak minded parents... and that's why spread their legs early.

The problem is that many girls do spread their legs cuz they are at the age of 13, 14 or not much older and finally want one, just one single human being who would love them and that's why they want to get pregnant no matter what and do spread their legs.

The problem is that not everybody pro-life is really willing to pay higher taxes for education programmes and health securing programmes for living children with problems.

The problem is allow abortion under certain circumstances of not. Face the fact it will be done because it simply was always. We will not solve the real problem with any theoretical discussion ever nor with a law. look at our history if you don't want to believe me.

The problem is we're not living in a perfect world, nor are we all perfect ppl with perfect children. Laws do not and will not help this.

EDUCATION IS THE KEY! You can only give ppl the best possibilities to live and to learn and to know and to make their decisions... you can not make everyones decision.
Laws are so often only eyewashing trying to hide societies failures... I'm tired of that and really not stupid enough... end of rant, sorry.
 
good post mechi. part of having discussions like this is education we can hope? it at least helps to think through everything so that those of us who are parents will be better equipped to help in that regard. that's my hope anyways.
 
Mechi said:
EDUCATION IS THE KEY! You can only give ppl the best possibilities to live and to learn and to know and to make their decisions... you can not make everyones decision.
Laws are so often only eyewashing trying to hide societies failures... I'm tired of that and really not stupid enough... end of rant, sorry.
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I agree 100%, Mechi...

Both my sister-in-laws are pregnant. One in week 31, and one in week 6. Waaay different stages. The one in week 31 was laying on a bed about a month ago while I was helping my brother with his computer. We looked over, and from across the room, we could see the baby kick through the stomach, visible through the skin. My niece - the soon-to-be big-sister doesn't really understand that that thing inside mommy's tummy is a baby. She can say it, but she doesn't know what it means.

IMO nothing is more important than human life. Take my niece as an example. 3 years ago she became an embryo inside her mommy's tummy. 2 years and 2 months ago she popped into this world with a scream, yet unable to do anything else. Now, today, she speaks, runs, has a VERY firm opinion, loves Cinderella and thinks that toothbrushes or excellent for chewing on. Brushing she is not so fond of.

My point is, in 2 years she has developed from a newborn to a toddler with mood-swings and all. Imagine where she will be in another 2 years, or in 10 years, or 20 years. She may be the one who discovers a cure for cancer, or she may be the one to secure world piece..
But if she had not been given a chance to live, we would never know.

I can't decide what is right for anyone else, but for me, nothing is more important than human life.
 
110% for abortion. What's the point of having a baby when you can't care for it? It ruins your life and the child's life.

It should also be a choice for the one who has the baby. I don't think anyone should be rejected to have abortion when they truly feel they cannot live their life properly or give proper care to the unborn child.

I can't decide what is right for anyone else, but for me, nothing is more important than human life.
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I understand that you're fascinated with the evolution of a child, but in my opinion, that isn't enough to deny someone the right to abort a baby.

Imagine a drug abuser that is carrying a child. What big are the chances for that child to be born without any handicaps and get raised properly full of care? I'd say the chances are really low and you're doing nothing but giving that baby a horrible life and give the society another issue they have to deal with. And that is only one example of a lot of social issues there can be when raising a baby.

Not to mention, the world is already crowded enough as it is. :)
 
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mariemarie said:
Guys and girls should be responsible for ALWAYS carrying protection!
then, many unwanted pregnansies would probably not have happened? Condoms are easy to get, cheap and it shouldn't be much of a hassle for both parties to remember to put it on!
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But sometimes condoms break, and what happens then? You're stuck with a baby you didn't want or can't raise.

Or, don't have sex.
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Easier said than done. Some people can't live without sex, and if you're dating someone, you'll want to have sex with your girlfriend or boyfriend.

Or, have all the babies that will come along with unprotected sex. (If you're one of those that gets easily sperminated)
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Yeah, and then you give them up to adoption agencies, and they end up in foster care with horrible parents or options. Not a good deal all around. Foster care centers are hell for kids.

Or, have abortions and live with the responsibilities and thoughts that comes after.
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Personally, I think this is the best option. If you get pregnant, and you don't want kids or can't raise them either financially or mentally, it's better to have an abortion.


Freedom is a wonderful thing for each living individual.
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Yes it is. I only have a problem with freedom when people instruct other people how to live their life. Which is why I have a problem with the anti-abortion argument; some people get so high handed, and conveniantly forget that they're imperfect, too.
 
Mr. Penguin said:
I understand that you're fascinated with the evolution of a child, but in my opinion, that isn't enough to deny someone the right to abort a baby.
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Exactly why I said 'for me'. I am against abortion, however, I am for legal abortions... does that make sense? I do not believe in prohibition of abortion, because I know it only drives women to do back-alley abortions which kills not only the baby, but the mother too.

I think it is sad, though, if someone defends the right to abortion where it no longer becomes acceptable not to believe in abortion for themselves.

I believe in the freedom of choice... For every woman. I would never have an abortion, and I would never advice someone to have an abortion. But if someone wishes to have it done, go for it, and I'll offer a shoulder to cry on when you're done.

As I said, I value human life... also the life of the mother. She needs to be able to live with herself regardless of her choice. There's no objective right and wrong in this question...
 
Yeah Abortions -- BLEEEEEEEEAAAH. No Abortions -- BLEEEEEEEEEEEAAH.

Riddle me THIS, riddle me THAT, who's afraid of LITTLE BOY JACK!

Me no LIKEY, me LIKEY LIKEY!
 
Yeah just that my church (it's tiresome at times really) only presents one side of the coin... they must have forgotten to film also all those living in a one room appartment of 9 m2 with a 'mate' on state costs... cuz they made it to the fame of murderes etc.

And now let's be really mean... is anyone here familiar with likelihood calculation??? Then try yourself on calculation how likely it is to become american president or any other genius one day!
You don't have to believe me but I'll tell you still... winning billions in any kind of lottery is more likely to happen!

No way I'm for abortion. I am not.
Still leave ppl the choice and please do not try to wash REALITY out of their eyes... they have to deal with it.
 
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