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lets talk abortion!

arXter said:
"living" (as many definitions as one can attribute to that word) in science would mean organic-wise both the haploid cells and the resulting zygote are obviously "living" cells. what i am saying is that once you form that very first diploid cell after fertalisation (including the essential randomness that make us individuals - indepenent assortment, crossing over), at that moment you have the new DNA make-up for that "new" human being. from the very first cell, the DNA tells you how that human will develop barring any mutations or outside interference as i described.

i hope this made sense.... i'd really want to rephrase if it didn't because it is a simple concept with regards to this topic.
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i'm following you i believe, so to me then, science supports life begins from the very first cell.
 
friend said:
yes, i would agree with that if everyone was being open and honest, but that is not always how it is, and it is not always the man who is not open and honest.
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very true, I've know women who've said yes to their husband only to sneak off and get an abortion

and I've known men who've agreed with their wife not to have kids and then go out of their way to get them pregnant
 
friend said:
i'm following you i believe, so to me then, science supports life begins from the very first cell.
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"life begins" is way too vague but essentially, yes, that's why i said that biology actually supports the argument because the DNA forms immediately to give us the potential and theoretical indication (not YET practical) of how that embryo from step-1 will develop and grow.

however, another strong scientific-philosophical argument can say that 'potential' does not mean certain reality (since many things such as unexpected mutations or damage can change the future for the embryo), and hence it distorts the notion that DNA formation = formation of a new life.

but in my opinion, since the probability for these interruptive events taking place are relatively slim, i'd say the former argument stands much stronger.

and i did say that even if you have an answer as to when "life begins", the debate of abortion certainly doesn't end there - and i think we've covered the many different areas of why that is already.
 
arXter said:
"life begins" is way too vague but essentially, yes, that's why i said that biology actually supports the argument because the DNA forms immediately to give us the potential and theoretical indication (not YET practical) of how that embryo from step-1 will develop and grow.

however, another strong scientific-philosophical argument can say that 'potential' does not mean certain reality (since many things such as unexpected mutations or damage can change the future for the embryo), and hence it distorts the notion that DNA formation = formation of a new life.

but in my opinion, since the probability for these interruptive events taking place are relatively slim, i'd say the former argument stands much stronger.

and i did say that even if you have an answer as to when "life begins", the debate of abortion certainly doesn't end there - and i think we've covered the many different areas of why that is already.
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ty for the explanation. and while it doesnt end there, it does answer the question to the science of it.
 
friend said:
ty for the explanation. and while it doesnt end there, it does answer the question to the science of it.
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i believe it really does, yep. formation of individuality = "beginning of a new life", in my view.
 
Bl00dyphynix said:
:applause: yes I know it would be 9 months of more torture. but...from a religious point of view...suffering is very redemptive...i like giving my suffereing up for other souls also. i think you should let GOD show you what you can do if you are in that situation, and give you His strength through the pain. but i know thats asking a lot. and at the same time...youre right. i cant judge. and i know an Athiest understandably would find that arguement i gave offensive and/or laughable, b/c of their point of view. if a victum was raped, and would go insane if she had to deal with 9 months of hell...theres the morning after pill and abortion in the early stages. im absolutely against late-term abortions, because of the pain the child and possibly the mother would have to endure. and I do feel for these women...you and they are true SURVIVORS. :flowers: I dont know what it would do to me if i got raped...that would be a nightmare...baby or not!
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friend said:
Linda, so far you don't understand me at all. don't try to strong arm me. my position is as valid as you believe yours to be.
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I am not trying to strong-arm you...I am trying to understand where you and others like you are coming from...I fail to see the logic of your position.
 
LindaC781 said:
I am not trying to strong-arm you...I am trying to understand where you and others like you are coming from...I fail to see the logic of your position.
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i dont know what you mean by others like me... i am me... they are them... i'm an atypical prolifer, so if you want to understand me, you'd have to read my posts first. you've read some, but if you dont' understand me at this point, then you have not read them all. start there. it's easier than rehashing it all again.
 
Neala Radhe said:
Bl00dphynix...I understand. I'm also religious. God got me through a lot, and continues to do so. Also God is one of the major reasons why I, personally, would keep the baby if I got pregnant from a rape, but I can't push that on everyone else. Some people aren't that strong, and it's too much for them to bear. We're all humans, and we all sin in one way or another...there is no perfect person. As a Christian, I know that God is forgiving. Also, the Bible mentions that we should be forgiving, merciful, and we shouldn't judge each other because God will judge, forgive, and show us as much mercy towards us as we give others. It's not our place to judge others for what they do. We may think it's wrong, but it's up to us to forgive and show mercy. Rather than condemn that person and point the finger at them and tell them what they "should" do, I'd instead be forgiving, try to understand them, and show them love...because in the situation that they would have to endure, they sure do need mercy, love, and understanding. I won't look down on someone else for what choice they made...I have no place doing that. I'm not perfect either, so who am I to judge anyone else? Who am I to say what's right or wrong in every situation? I'm not God, so I can't rule over another person's life. IF that person committed some sort of sin, leave it to God to deal with...let Him choose whether it was wrong or not, and let Him choose whether to condemn or forgive the person or not. As humans, it's not our place.
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Amen. those are good points. Heck...i am FAR from perfect! thats why i try to not judge anyone on here and i hope that anything i say doesnt take offence to anyone else.

 
I'm not taking anything to offense. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and some can get frustrated...it's a difficult topic, and we each have our passionate beliefs. The same, I hope no one is taking offense to anything I say. If I point anything anyone says out, or go on and on about it, I'm not trying to attack you or be arrogant, etc. I'm stating my opinion peacefully...wanted to clear that up as well because it's easy to misinterpret text because there's no way to hear a tone of voice, etc. to know how to take it.
 
Neala Radhe said:
I'm not taking anything to offense. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and some can get frustrated...it's a difficult topic, and we each have our passionate beliefs. The same, I hope no one is taking offense to anything I say. If I point anything anyone says out, or go on and on about it, I'm not trying to attack you or be arrogant, etc. I'm stating my opinion peacefully...wanted to clear that up as well because it's easy to misinterpret text because there's no way to hear a tone of voice, etc. to know how to take it.
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You hit the nail right on the head Neala. I read your previous posts - and I feel so bad for what you went through...it must have been absolutely horrible.
 
friend said:
i dont know what you mean by others like me... i am me... they are them... i'm an atypical prolifer, so if you want to understand me, you'd have to read my posts first. you've read some, but if you dont' understand me at this point, then you have not read them all. start there. it's easier than rehashing it all again.
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I am afraid I DO understand your viewpoint...and it really isn't far off from others who share the same views.
 
if you think you do... then no need to ask me to elaborate for the benefit of your understanding then... as best as i can tell.
 
LindaC781 said:
Obviously. If the CHILD is 13 and forcibly raped, SHE didn't WANT to be raped. AND it is damned sure she DOESN'T WANT to be pregnant for 9 months, let alone ONE DAY!
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I didn't realize that all 13 year-olds react exactly the same to a particular situation and that you were the authority on what all of them want.

See, rape is one of those situations where I find getting an abortion reasonable. But if you're planning on "having" a 13 year-old get an abortion, that would make you just as bad as all the "evil pro-lifers" who pressure people not to get an abortion no matter what. I suppose making the choice and heavily pressuring someone to do something is okay if it's what you want them to do. Whereas if someone pressured that same child to keep the baby, they would be a male chauvinist who wants to enslave women. Huh.
 
LindaC781 said:
You hit the nail right on the head Neala. I read your previous posts - and I feel so bad for what you went through...it must have been absolutely horrible.
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Yes, it was horrible, but that which does not kill me, makes me stronger. The memories are there, but I try to see what positive can come out of it, and let it shape me. There's always some light to be found in the darkest of places.
 
Grand Master S said:
I didn't realize that all 13 year-olds react exactly the same to a particular situation and that you were the authority on what all of them want.

See, rape is one of those situations where I find getting an abortion reasonable. But if you're planning on "having" a 13 year-old get an abortion, that would make you just as bad as all the "evil pro-lifers" who pressure people not to get an abortion no matter what. I suppose making the choice and heavily pressuring someone to do something is okay if it's what you want them to do. Whereas if someone pressured that same child to keep the baby, they would be a male chauvinist who wants to enslave women. Huh.
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Did I ever say that I was "planning on having a 13 year old get an abortion"? No I did not. What I DID say is that in a situation where a child is forcibly raped, she should not be tortured any more by having to carry an UNWANTED CHILD for 9 months. If my child were forcibly raped, she probably would be crying to me about what happened - and I, besides wanting to KILL the asshole who raped her, would want to see to it that she isnt further traumatized. And at 13, she is my CHILD. She is a CHILD HERSELF. I am her PARENT, an adult.. If she asks me, I will help her get an abortion. If she doesn't, it's up to her. But forcible rape does NOT constitute a situation where a child should be forced to continue a pregnancy for 9 months.
 
LindaC781 said:
Did I ever say that I was "planning on having a 13 year old get an abortion"? No I did not. What I DID say is that in a situation where a child is forcibly raped, she should not be tortured any more by having to carry an UNWANTED CHILD for 9 months. If my child were forcibly raped, she probably would be crying to me about what happened - and I, besides wanting to KILL the asshole who raped her, would want to see to it that she isnt further traumatized. And at 13, she is my child. If she asks me, I will help her get an abortion. If she doesn't, it's up to her. But forcible rape does NOT constitute a situation where a child should have to be pregnant for 9 months.
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Well what you actually said was that you would "have" her get an abortion. If she wanted to get an abortion in this hypothetical scenario, then that's totally understandable. But I'm sure there are 13 year-olds out there who were raped, got pregnant, decided to keep the baby or put it up for adoption, and don't regret it.
 
as said before... exceptions are not what are making up the 1.5 million abortions being performed in this country every year, it is the notion that abortion is on the table for those who don't want a pregancy and is a legitimate way of taking care of things when they are not willing to prevent it to start with.
 
Grand Master S said:
Well what you actually said was that you would "have" her get an abortion. If she wanted to get an abortion in this hypothetical scenario, then that's totally understandable. But I'm sure there are 13 year-olds out there who were raped, got pregnant, decided to keep the baby or put it up for adoption, and don't regret it.
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that would be one strong child..i believe they are out there...but i dunno how i would deal with that at 13! id feel guilty if i killed the baby so id probably have to go through with that.

 
And we are discussing abortions.... because....?

Whatever. Just continue to keep it civil.
 
^ not sure mello feels kinda like a dog chasing their tail... thinks im about done with it. don't know what more i can contribute at this point.
 
I honestly can't contribute any more to this thread either. You all know my standpoint is. I work with a young woman who had a child at 14. And she regrets every day of it...not that she doesn't love her child....but that she wished she had waited....and that is no excuse for abortion. However, her birth control didn't work. So where did that leave her? I don't know her personal story - and I would never ask her - but if she was raped, and the pill didn't work....I would hate to have us resort to back-alley abortion clinics.

Talk about saving lives? Try asking all of the deceased women throughout history who tried to end their pregnancies with coat hangers....whether they wanted to live THEIR lives or not or be put in an impossible situation.

And one more thing. A doctor performing an abortion? Do you think they like doing that? That goes against every single belief that most doctors adhere to in order to go into medicine in the first place. It's called the Hippocratic oath - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

Original, translated into English:[1]
“ I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath. To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.


Believe me, they DON'T like doing abortions. Believe me, they'd rather SAVE lives than END them.
 
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LindaC781 said:
I honestly can't contribute any more to this thread either. You all know my standpoint is. I work with a young woman who had a child at 14. And she regrets every day of it...not that she doesn't love her child....but that she wished she had waited....and that is no excuse for abortion. However, her birth control didn't work. So where did that leave her? I don't know her personal story - and I would never ask her - but if she was raped, and the pill didn't work....I would hate to have us resort to back-alley abortion clinics.

Talk about saving lives? Try asking all of the deceased women throughout history who tried to end their pregnancies with coat hangers....whether they wanted to live THEIR lives or not or be put in an impossible situation.

And one more thing. A doctor performing an abortion? Do you think they like doing that? That goes against every single belief that most doctors adhere to in order to go into medicine in the first place. It's called the Hippocratic oath - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

Original, translated into English:[1]
“ I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath. To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.


Believe me, they DON'T like doing abortions. Believe me, they'd rather SAVE lives than END them.
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could you explain what that oath is for? was it originally for those who where to perform abortions?

as for you saying all doctors dont like doing abortions...thats not neccisarily true. im sure there are some out there that dont...and are doing it for the good of the women...but for others, why would they do that instead of another job so they dont have all that BLOOD on their hands? so they wouldnt have to feel guilty for it? i have a book about abortions, and it seems some "doctors" dont giv a damn that they killed a women acidentally...some tried to make excuses for it! i know it could be made up, but im sure there is some truth to it....there where documents in the book about performed abortions the writers had to search for.

 
um can y'all utilize the damn return button? cuz it's hard as hell to read a big ass block of sentences if u don't space them up
 
Bl00dyphynix said:
could you explain what that oath is for? was it originally for those who where to perform abortions?

as for you saying all doctors dont like doing abortions...thats not neccisarily true. im sure there are some out there that dont...and are doing it for the good of the women...but for others, why would they do that instead of another job so they dont have all that BLOOD on their hands? so they wouldnt have to feel guilty for it? i have a book about abortions, and it seems some "doctors" dont giv a damn that they killed a women acidentally...some tried to make excuses for it! i know it could be made up, but im sure there is some truth to it....there where documents in the book about performed abortions the writers had to search for.
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Grand Master S said:
I didn't realize that all 13 year-olds react exactly the same to a particular situation and that you were the authority on what all of them want.

See, rape is one of those situations where I find getting an abortion reasonable. But if you're planning on "having" a 13 year-old get an abortion, that would make you just as bad as all the "evil pro-lifers" who pressure people not to get an abortion no matter what. I suppose making the choice and heavily pressuring someone to do something is okay if it's what you want them to do. Whereas if someone pressured that same child to keep the baby, they would be a male chauvinist who wants to enslave women. Huh.
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Just one more thing. What is the age of CONSENT in your country? Is it 16?? 18?? When a Child is a CHILD, the ADULT has the final say on what goes on for the health of her child. Not ONLY would I have her get an abortion, but I would also see to it that the person who COMMITTED this CRIME on this CHILD would be sent away for a long time - on STATUTORY RAPE CHARGES. The LAW is CLEAR on this in the US.
 
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