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lets talk abortion!

If you don't want kids, don't have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy (no contraceptive is 100% reliable. :)

I'm more against abortion than for it, but not strictly or anything. I just wish people would abstain...that would solve so many problems. The only exception is rape.
 
LindaC781 said:
Not ONLY would I have her get an abortion
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That's very sad.

The ironic part is that you would probably find a parent who makes their child not get an abortion to be sickening.

And I live in America, since you asked. Where 13 year-olds aren't adults, but I do consider most of them worthy of deciding what happens after they get raped and impregnated. How unfortunate it would be if one of these kids really wanted to go through with the pregnancy and their parent(s) made them abort.
 
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Grand Master S said:
That's very sad.

The ironic part is that you would probably find a parent who makes their child not get an abortion to be sickening.

And I live in America, since you asked. Where 13 year-olds aren't adults, but I do consider most of them worthy of deciding what happens after they get raped and impregnated. How unfortunate it would be if one of these kids really wanted to go through with the pregnancy and their parent(s) made them abort.
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that would make it even more tortureous for the kid if she REALLY wanted the baby and was forced to abort. It would give her something to be proud of i think is how the kid would see it, and she would prolly feel guilty for the abortion, even tho she knew it wasnt her fault. BTW Linda, you made it come across that you would force your kid get to abort if it happened...but i dont know if you really ment that :)

 
LindaC781 said:
Just one more thing. What is the age of CONSENT in your country? Is it 16?? 18?? When a Child is a CHILD, the ADULT has the final say on what goes on for the health of her child. Not ONLY would I have her get an abortion, but I would also see to it that the person who COMMITTED this CRIME on this CHILD would be sent away for a long time - on STATUTORY RAPE CHARGES. The LAW is CLEAR on this in the US.
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So if 18 is the legal age of consent and your 17 year old comes home pregnant and wanting her child you'll force her to abort? That's just wrong imo. Abortion isn't a birthcontrol for sexually active minors. Wow, that really threw me for a loop - I seriously pray for anyones children whos parents follow those beliefs.

EssenceOfMagic said:
If you don't want kids, don't have sexual intercourse that may result in pregnancy (no contraceptive is 100% reliable. :)

I'm more against abortion than for it, but not strictly or anything. I just wish people would abstain...that would solve so many problems. The only exception is rape.
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Abstaining isn't practical for everyone in todays society. Education is paramount.
 
linda the age of consent is different in every state...in philly, the age is 14 so she can have sex w/ a 21 yr old and it's not stat. rape.....

that's y it's a statutory charge...each state has different rules

and not having sex is NOT an option. people risk their lives for sex by not using protection yet we're supposed to think that they'll abstain if they don't want kids?

when ur methods fail, there HAS to be another viable option....RU486, the date rape drug, but alas, it doesn't get dispersed by pharmacists who feel it goes against their beliefs...so here we are again w /the church and state
 
what does a pharmacy have to do with church and state? doesn't a pharmacy have a choice in what they sell like any other business? or their rules are different? i've worked for pharamacists but this is something we never discussed, so i honestly dont know what church and state has to do with pharmacies.
 
She's saying that because the pharamacy doesn't believing in killing or has other agendas they won't sell a product made for that purpose (date rape drug). That's assuming it is based on religion so therefore the religion vs state.
 
The major issue being discussed is choice abortions - secondary is rape and medical need abortions. Regardless you can't discount one or the other it's either yes they are allowed or no they aren't. It's the lines that cross choice and need that are why no law can be absolute for everyone.
 
So if 18 is the legal age of consent and your 17 year old comes home pregnant and wanting her child you'll force her to abort? That's just wrong imo. Abortion isn't a birthcontrol for sexually active minors. Wow, that really threw me for a loop - I seriously pray for anyones children whos parents follow those beliefs.
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So I am assuming that if your child was forcibly raped, you would have her go through an unwanted pregnancy? That, after going through a TRIAL where the PERPETRATOR gets put away for STATUTORY RAPE, and the lawyer wipes the floor with your child in essence treating her like the biggest slut in the world and that she asked for it - you would have her go through a pregnancy brought on by a CRIMINAL ACT?? That floored ME.....that is heartless and cruel.

We are not talking CONSENSUAL SEX here. We are talking RAPE. It's like comparing APPLES to ORANGES. Rape is NOT a pretty thing. Women who have gone through a rape will tell you - it is NO act of "love". Just Power and Control and Violence.

And the topic here is about ABORTION. Plain and simple. It could have been a matter of choice between two consenting ADULTS or the forcible rape of a woman - but the topic IS about abortion. Or am I wrong about that?
Abstaining isn't practical for everyone in todays society. Education is paramount.
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That is the truth. In a perfect world, people WOULD abstain. But we are all human beings, prone to those physical needs and wants - and abstaining, while being one thing, is not the end-all cure for this.
 
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Don't know if I'm right about this, but as I've seen it, even consensual sex is considered statutory rape based solely on age, so, there can be a HUGE difference between statutory rape and flat out rape.

On those basis, a 17 y/o having sex with her 21 y/o boyfriend and getting pregnant because of it, may not want to have an abortion but to go through with the pregnancy. I can be wrong, but I think that's what Shannon meant.
 
Shannon said:
She's saying that because the pharamacy doesn't believing in killing or has other agendas they won't sell a product made for that purpose (date rape drug). That's assuming it is based on religion so therefore the religion vs state.
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if a pharmacy is not a state run pharmacy, and receives no funding from state or federal in the running of their business, i'm still foggy as to how the state vs. church thing has to do with them?
 
soso deaf said:
yep yep yep and how come only the pro-choicers have touched on the rape issue?
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i think because the prochoicers are the only ones bringing up exceptions. as to the post where someone said about the law is an all or nothing, why must it be all or nothing? maybe cause people would lie and claim exceptions when really it was just they didn't protect themselves to begin with so there is no way to properly police it for valid exceptions vs. using it as a birth control method?
 
I am not adding anything else to this. I just believe that NOONE has the right to tell me or other women what to do with our Gonads.. NOONE.
 
LindaC781 said:
I am not adding anything else to this. I just believe that NOONE has the right to tell me or other women what to do with our Gonads.. NOONE.
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aren't gonads a male thing?

nvm.. i looked it up its both male and female things
 
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not a simple question

the attitude of everyone could be very simple: support, not support
but the "why" depend on "what's life""how to give a limit""who give the limit""why is she/she"... to answer needs to understand the whole universe/life/society.
another side, we only work out problems under a concrete condition(how much money we have, what kind of support that the society can give, what's the universal status of family, etc.), then i think the answer is "yes, woman has the right to decide"

it doesn't mean which side can own the morality/do the good...
it's just a better way under the current condition that avoided more tragedy.
 
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LindaC781 said:
So I am assuming that if your child was forcibly raped, you would have her go through an unwanted pregnancy? That, after going through a TRIAL where the PERPETRATOR gets put away for STATUTORY RAPE, and the lawyer wipes the floor with your child in essence treating her like the biggest slut in the world and that she asked for it - you would have her go through a pregnancy brought on by a CRIMINAL ACT?? That floored ME.....that is heartless and cruel.

We are not talking CONSENSUAL SEX here. We are talking RAPE. It's like comparing APPLES to ORANGES. Rape is NOT a pretty thing. Women who have gone through a rape will tell you - it is NO act of "love". Just Power and Control and Violence.
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If you read my post you would have seen I was talking about consensual sex and the post I quoted was generic not just about rape. If my child was raped I wouldn't force her to do anything. She would have the options before her and I would support her and help her make the correct decision for her depending on the variety of circumstances and that goes for any pregnancy not just rape. My point is abortion is not birthcontrol and just because a child is sexually active doesn't mean the child should have to endure forced abortion or forced to have a baby. Just because they are under age doesn't make it rape.

I know exactly what rape is I need no one to tell me. If I had been pregnant due to rape at 14 I would have elected to have the child because it is how I feel and my mother would have stood beside me 100%. I would not have killed a baby because anyone found it in my best interest. I would not have killed a baby because he or she was ill concieved. I would not have killed a baby because I was raped. It is my body and at 14 or not I knew the difference between what is right and wrong for me. Sure it wouldn't have been easy. But many things in life arent and in today's day and age there are other options for rape victims (date rape drug).

Wether to get an abortion or not - that difference changes with each individual person and their experiences. Parents need to stand beside their children and help them not force them to do what is best or easiest for the parents.

And the topic here is about ABORTION. Plain and simple. It could have been a matter of choice between two consenting ADULTS or the forcible rape of a woman - but the topic IS about abortion. Or am I wrong about that?
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Well it's certainly what I was talking about.

daphnieas said:
Don't know if I'm right about this, but as I've seen it, even consensual sex is considered statutory rape based solely on age, so, there can be a HUGE difference between statutory rape and flat out rape.

On those basis, a 17 y/o having sex with her 21 y/o boyfriend and getting pregnant because of it, may not want to have an abortion but to go through with the pregnancy. I can be wrong, but I think that's what Shannon meant.
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Yes, thank you.

LindaC781 said:
I am not adding anything else to this. I just believe that NOONE has the right to tell me or other women what to do with our Gonads.. NOONE.
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Yet, you would force a minor to do what you want with their gonads :unsure:

Funny thing is we are both open to allowing abortions just for different reasons :doh:

friend said:
aren't gonads a male thing?

nvm.. i looked it up its both male and female things
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lol I actually thought the same thing :lol:
 
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wow.....

so IFwe allow it to happen ONLY for cases of rape...then um....how does that work? does th eman need to be convicted first? we all know how long a trial CAN take...by that time, it'd be far too late to have an abortion.

and let's not forget that in doing that, making it the only exception, a lot more men will be accused of rape so women can get 'legal' abortins...
 
Lets talk hypothetical situation. Here you are, a 35 year old woman, with 3 kids already. You take the pill religiously. You practice safe sex. Your husband just left you. Suddenly, you find out you are pregnant. You find this out at about 4 weeks along. I think it is perfectly justifiable for you to seek an abortion. You are well within the guidelines for it. But it would be ultimately up to YOU to decide. Not the Supreme Court, Not the Catholic Church, not ANY OTHER INSTITUTION to make up your mind for you. I have to admit, I love children so I personally probably WOULDN'T decide on an abortion for myself. But I cannot condemn any other woman for doing this. Especially in this hypothetical situation. WHO am I to JUDGE HER???
Let's now talk ANOTHER hypothetical situation. Lets say your 16 year old goes out on a date with someone she hardly knows. Let's say she goes to a party with this person. You worry and worry about her safety, so you tell her the standard precautions "Never leave your drink unattended" and "If you feel the slightest bit intoxicated, call me and I will pick you up from wherever you are" and "Make sure your cell phone is charged - just in case you need to use it for an emergency". Your half-awake when she comes in at 2am - enebriated - and then go to sleep...

She wakes up the next morning with a horror story. She tells you that she doesn't remember what she did or where she went in the house from 10pm on. She says she drank there, but that drink made her very woosie and nauseous. She then states that when she woke up, she was undressed...and very embarrassed. She then tells you she thinks she may have had sex with the stranger. You get her in to see a doctor - and tell the doctor you think she may have been a victim of a date rape drug. They do all of the standard protocol - vaginal swabs, blood testing, physical exams. The blood tests are stat - they come back positive for pregnancy.

You break the news to your 16 year old. She starts WAILING and CRYING. She tells you "Mom!! I am too young to be a mother! I have to finish HIGH SCHOOL! I didn't ASK FOR THIS? Can you DO Something?" She's freaking out. You think. You decide and ask her "Would you like to get an abortion?" She freaks out more, but then settles down and thinks about it. She says Yes. You arrange to get the "morning after" pill that day.

Who am I TO JUDGE THIS TEENAGER or HER MOTHER? They are WELL WITHIN THEIR RIGHTS to HAVE THE PREGNANCY TERMINATED. And it is NOT up to ME or ANYONE ELSE to TELL HER WHAT SHE CAN OR CANNOT DO. Her new "boyfriend" HAD HIS FUN..AT THE EXPENSE OF THIS LITTLE GIRL. HE doesn't need an abortion....SHE DOES and WANTS ONE. And she should get one - she has the REST of HER LIFE to live. Just as FREELY as the BOYFRIEND WHO DID THIS TO HER.

And Shannon - I do know the difference between RIght and Wrong myself...there's no need to get preachy with me. I am just stating the fact that IT IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR OTHERS ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD FOR THEM OR WHAT IS NOT.
 
Linda, no one is getting preachy at you, in fact with you saying that glass houses come to mind ....



Also from what I can see, people are concerned because in one breath you're saying that it is no one's right to say what a woman should be able to do with her body, and in your next breath you're mentioning that you would practically drag your daughter to have an abortion if she became pregnant at a young age.



oh and in this kind of topic... hypothetical's just don't cut it imo cause every case is unique
 
L.J said:
Linda, no one is getting preachy at you, in fact with you saying that glass houses come to mind ....



Also from what I can see, people are concerned because in one breath you're saying that it is no one's right to say what a woman should be able to do with her body, and in your next breath you're mentioning that you would practically drag your daughter to have an abortion if she became pregnant at a young age.



oh and in this kind of topic... hypothetical's just don't cut it imo cause every case is unique
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LJ - I am NOT being preachy. Not at all. I wasn't the person that said "I know right from wrong"...I was being JUDGED there. And you know what they say "Judge not or ye shall be judged"...and this is a complicated issue. Involving parents that COULD freak out(Like myself! - not that any of this stuff ever happened to me, thank you!! LOL!) along with underagers that could freak out. I was also pointing THAT out too. We are only HUMAN.
 
LindaC781 said:
LJ - I am NOT being preachy. Not at all. I wasn't the person that said "I know right from wrong"...I was being JUDGED there. And you know what they say "Judge not or ye shall be judged"...and this is a complicated issue. Involving parents that COULD freak out(Like myself! - not that any of this stuff ever happened to me, thank you!! LOL!) along with underagers that could freak out. I was also pointing THAT out too. We are only HUMAN.
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Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen I said I know what is right or wrong for me and I went on to say that despite their age parents need to work with their children to find the right answer - age doesn't make abortion the only answer but neither can it be discounted due to age either. I never said a dang thing about what is right or wrong for you personally like I already stated abortion is a personal choice for everyone. No one should force anyone into it or out of it for any reason not even age. You said you would force a minor to have an abortion - what if she said hell no mom its wrong? You still gonna force her? That was the only point I was trying to get acrossed.

You need to actually read through what is being said before reacting to it.

I'll respond to the other post after I've checked the board - just had to straighted that judgement crap out real quick.
 
i only use caps to emphasize my point...if that's what ur trying to do, then bold portions of ur comment cuz the caps are coming off as screaming and u seem to be getting irritated that u haven't convinced anyone to feel the same as u.

it's a personal choice that should not be taken away. regardless of how someone feels about it, unless they're willing to get personally involved they should mind their own business and move along. that's how i feel.

i can't tell someone how to live and what to do. simply b/c i will not help support them if they do what i want, the minute she gives birth im on to save the next soul

pregnancy sux even when it's something u want so i would never want to force someone to go through that if they didn't feel like its something they wanted
 
Probably we should all refrain from talking too theoretical about certain possible scenarios and how we would act... cuz often the situation looks pretty different when you're actually in there. We can't know before.

So again I prefer to have faith in ppl and let them decide what's right or wrong for them.
I am surrounded and actually working with many 'unwanted' children.
Those of you talking about adoption as a very easy and available tool in this, give a second that not all babies are born with perfect health.
Are all ppl here who are 'so pro life' also involved in supporting this life for those unwanted with fighting for education programmes, health programmes for all those children out there, nobody cares about?
It's already more than we can deal with. Again, please have a look into personal histories of those in our overcrowded prisons also, if you doubt what I'm saying.

To bring up a healthy child a way it will be able to deal with this world when it's an adult and still be happy... wow ppl that's already difficult enough when you rrrrrrrreally want a child and decide 100% for having one.

Therefore I want women to have a choice. The responsibility lies with the person deciding.

If I want the freedom for myself to decide yes or no, I have to give it to everybody else.

See, I mean think twice, one day due to some sick circumstances we'll might not be allowed anymore to have children and would you accept government (no matter if that's women or men) then to demand an abortion for you? as some want now government to ban it?

Yes, education is the key! And then let ppl decide.
Nobody can escape responsibility anyways.
 
On January 23, Obama ended the funding ban for groups that provide abortion services or counseling abroad, also known as the "gag rule." The ban was originally put in place by Ronald Reagan, later revoked by Bill Clinton, and reenacted by George W. Bush. Source

What do you think or this ruling?

Also, another what do you think... what do you think of this rationale on abortion?....



The guy in the video is Penn Jillete, a famous illusionist, atheist, libertarian (part of the duo Penn & Teller). In this vlog he presents a rationale on the abortion issue. Basically he says that death is declared when your brain waves stop functioning, so why shouldn't life be declared when your brain waves start functioning? That time is said to be about 40 days after conception. So does that satisfy the anti-choice and anti-life people (as he calls them)? Would both sides of the issue be happy with abortion being legal for the first 40 days unless in the case of the woman's health? That seems fair and rational to me.

I've always put myself on the pro-choice side because of the dangers associated with prohibiting abortion, but I've never felt right about supporting abortion when the foetus is developed and has a heart beat, brain waves and fingerprints. I think I expressed this earlier in the thread. So for me, the first 40 days since conception, before the brain waves can be recorded in the unborn baby, seems like the only humane time to have an abortion unless of course the life of the mother is threatened.

What say you?
 
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i'm 100% for abortion. u cant have a baby that u dont wanna have. it would ruin ur life and also ur baby's life.
 
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