lets talk abortion!

[Bl00dyphynix]

Oh I definatley am aware that not all pro-lifers are like that

at least the action that you guys took (even though I still don't agree with it) is not active or intrusive, rather that you are there in case someone comes along with the need of spiritual guidance... and allow them to approach you rather than you approaching them.

Plus there is also the example that Ape posted as well. :yes:


not all pro-lifers are out to condem women who make the choice to abort, and not all pro-choicers are out there trying to encourage rape victims etc to abort .

yeah exactly..we are just there to help...99.9% of the time with prayer. i would think most of the women are lost, and really dont want to go through with it. i know not every pro choicer is like that. some dont like abortion but still think having abortion as an option is important.

 

[Minnie]

I went to a crisis pregnancy center when pregnant with my first baby. I was 18 and unsure what I was going to do. The people who ran it were all pro-life but I didn't know this until later on. They presented ALL the options in a way that it was totally my choice to make. For myself though I already knew that abortion was not going to be one of my options. These women (and men) in that center helped the girls and women through every stage and through any choice they made. They actually were there for the women who had abortions, they would go with them to the clinics and everything if thats what they wanted. Then they were there for them afterwards if they needed counsellings or just a friend. The ones who chose adoption, they would lead them through that, and the ones who chose to have the babies and keep them were also given support until they could make it without. If I called even today for help, they would, or they'd point me in the direction where I could get help. These people support emotionally and financially and in any and every way that they can. Most of the volunteers are women who were in those situations themselves years ago and want to give back. They know how scary it is to be pregnant and young, or have an unplanned pregnancy. So I don't know how they are where anyone else lives, but here, they are full of compassion and their help does not stop the moment the baby is born...not at all.

See, THIS is the way it should be! I do consider myself pro-life, but THIS is the way it should be.

Nobody should EVER judge others for what they do within the framework of the national and international laws they live under. And any judging for breaking laws needs to be in a courtroom.

Pro-lifers should NEVER judge women, but should walk with them every step of the way, and love on them no matter what. If you want to make a difference as a pro-lifer, that Ape explained should be the way!

I really applaud those women! They are my new heroes!

 

[Soso Deaf]

Well, I've gone through fertility to have a baby so I know in my heart life begins the second it is formed. There is no "oh it's not a baby til 3 months" stuff as far as I'm concerned. It's a tiny wiggling life. It wouldn't thrive and become a baby if not for those initial steps so I don't understand how anyone can easily discount them. Life is a begining, a middle and an end. Conception is that begining.

Circumstances surrounding conception are the main reasons for abortions. But there are those who find themselves or the life of the unborn child to be in jeopardy and must have abortions as well as those that choose to terminate on the grounds that a test has shown the unborn child is deficient in some way.

Personally I would die to give my child life and no test would deprive my child of the best future I could provide for them. I have compassion for those that are medically unable and must have an abortion but not those that choose to terminate because the child may or may not have a probability of any condition.

I also feel that anyone using abortion as a birthcontrol measure should be sterilized. To me that's simply immoral on a horribly selfish level. If you choose to engage in causal behaviorisms then you have to take responsibility for your actions. Does that mean raising a child you can't afford, don't want, neglect or abuse, no. But is adoption the answer when there are already so many children needing loving parents? Catch 22.

Can anyone honestly answer for a 12yr old girl who is pregnant with the baby of her sexually abusive father? Would you adopt the 12 yr old and her infant? Which child is to be protected? Do you save the girl who has suffered so much already? Do you force her to conceive her father's child? Do you save the unborn child? Are you personally able and ready to take on the demands placed here? I don't have the ability to answer.

The only recourse I can even muster is education and moral values. Today's society is lacking in both. Laws forcing people won't educated them. And the child without instilled values looks for love and attention in all the wrong ways. This is our responsibility as a society and one that we do have the ability to answer for. Teaching our children. Education is always key.

we can't assume we have a moral society and we can't justify reasons for not aborting based on religion....remember, the us was formed b/c of relig. persecution....SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

murder isn't illegal cuz it's in the 10 commandments, there's a legal justification for it being illegal.

which child do u save? do u wait for the trial to prove the father guilty? what if he's not, then u can't abort the baby? ASSuming she's still pregnant after the slow wheel of justice moves right along.

morals and religion and what we WANT people to do never work. if a woman doesn't wanna be preg, she won't honor that preg. and relish in it. that 'child' will be abused from conception on and IF the 'child' makes it to birth, then it's bound to have difficulties...

sure a foster kid would be glad they're alive but they have to acknowledge the fact they were not wanted and all those pro=lifers out there didn't adopt them. higher risks of suicide, drug and alcohol use show not so good odds for them having a successful life....

but then again, who are we to judge...let a woman drink and smoke and do drugs and she can toss that child aside and make more....at least the child is born, right? we need to realize that not everyone feels the same and raising a baby is difficult. mistakes are made, condoms can break, rapes happen, and that's just a part of life.

if men were the ones getting preg, i totally believe abortion wouldn't be an issue....b/c women and their rights have always been second in this society

 

[L.J]

if men were the ones getting preg, i totally believe abortion wouldn't be an issue....b/c women and their rights have always been second in this society

too damn true right there :clapping:

 

[friend]

the discussion about separation of church and state with regards to this issue is an interesting one. from the standpoint of the believer, the issue is murder, which is also viewed by the courts as murder if it is someone other than the mother who causes an unborn child to die as i showed in a previous post.

so i thought about where do you draw the lines on church and state and when does it cease becoming a church and state issue and start being an a legal issue from the court's perspective

i am assuming that this issue was raised in relationship to the 10 Commandments. While some of the 10 Commandments are not in any way a part of man's law, certain ones for sure are.

6. thou shalt not kill
8. thou shalt not steal
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour (applies when someone is under oath on a stand in a US court - bearing false witness is perjury and is against the law and punishable by man's laws)

as another member who is not believer pointed out, the inhumanity of destroying of an unborn baby with formed fingers, toes, etc. is also evident to those with no connections to God. it is not prochoice = nonbeliever and prolife = believer - it is that something of great value is being destroyed and anyone who is being truly objective cannot look at those pictures, tho they are not being shown here, but we know there are forming babies in them that were aborted, and say this is nothing and it is nothing to simply terminate it and throw it out with the rest of the medical garbage which gets disposed of.

for those who do believe, we value that life from its inception, the forming body parts are not necessary for us to know that what is growing within the womb is valuable.

my message in my earlier post is not to blur the lines between church and state, it is to say to believers that if we believe in what God says, abortion is not something we can support.

as to those who say it will occur anyhow. ALL murders will occur anyhow - but we don't legalize them.

 

[Soso Deaf]

yes but murder is NOT illegal b/c it's in the bible as a sin. it's illegal b/c ur taking a life and there's a legal justification for that being a crime.

the same w/ theft

the same w/ guns....

but do we get in trouble if we screw our neighbor's wife?

hell, according to the holy book we shouldn't work for a profit b/c that's not in accordance w/ god

so if an athiest wants an abortion, u can't throw religion in her face.

the same can be said about gay marriage.....u get married before 'god' but athiest HETERO couples don't....the state marries them so what's the harm?

it's no one's right to know what's going on in a woman's body and to dictate what she HAS to do. if im sick and i don't wanna go to teh dr, u can't make me. unless it's like tb or something. lol

so how can they justify the way they want to govern a woman's body....they can't even provide healthcare for us w/o charging us hella much and our laws are created to satisfy the ones who helped pay for their campaign.

when a man can have a child, then he can tell me what i can and can't do w/my body. cuz my giv'a damn's broken.

 

[friend]

yes but when you end a life prematurely it is murder and that is the topic at hand. not church and state. i just thought it interesting that it was brought into the discussion. and there do seem to be crossovers between whats written in the Bible and what is written into law. i do believe adultry is still on the books in some states, just not enforced. i'd have to check.

 

[friend]

with relationship to marriage - it is a covenant before God and also a legal entity - definitely cross overs.

 

[browneyedgirl]

yes but when you end a life prematurely it is murder.

Not until it's medically proven it can live outside of the womb, I don't understand how you could label it murder.

Like soso def stated earlier, it's because women have taken the back seat for generations.

What do you say to that pregnant woman addicted to crack with no support? Not only will she have gone through 9 months of hell, but she's carrying an unwanted baby. Not only will the mother have suffered, but the child would have to go through all these extra, unnecessary challenges the world throws at them.
Foster care is NOT the answer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the numbers aren't through the roof.

I don't "support" abortion, I actually discourage it, but when push comes to shove, there are situations where the pregnancy has to be executed for the child and mother's benefit.

More than 50% of the people rallying in front of abortion clinics are men. Please.

 

[friend]

Not until it's medically proven it can live outside of the womb, I don't understand how you could label it murder.

easily. it was living, perhaps via the mother as the host, but nevertheless was living, and when it is terminated, it is no longer living. that is murder. the "outside the womb" terminology is only the technicality that is currently in use to justify it and to make the name prettier calling it abortion vs. murder. the life has been prematurely ended. it is murder by whatever name one chooses to call it.

Like soso def stated earlier, it's because women have taken the back seat for generations.

and so we give them the front seat by granting them Godlike power over who is to live or who is to die so long as it dwells within them?

What do you say to that pregnant woman addicted to crack with no support? Not only will she have gone through 9 months of hell, but she's carrying an unwanted baby. Not only will the mother have suffered, but the child would have to go through all these extra, unnecessary challenges the world throws at them.
Foster care is NOT the answer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the numbers aren't through the roof.

there are agencies available to help women like this with housing, medical care, and where they can live with the child while they get their lives in order. and while helping her if i was asked how to get in touch with these agencies and get the help she needed, would ask her how come she didn't prevent the pregnancy to begin with, and how will she keep from getting herself into this situation again. if she doesn't know, then as others have stated, would help her get educated so that she doesnt become one of those who end up getting themself into the same situation over and over again. when i was in 10th grade the girl who sat next to me had already had 3 abortions. she was 16 years old. abortion was her birth control method. that is what has to stop. the various scenarios that have been brought up about 12 year old little girls getting impregnated is not what is making up the 1.5 million abortions in this country every year. it is being made up mostly not by the exceptions but by the ones who see it as the means to terminate what is unwanted should they end up pregnant and they do nothing to prevent it in the first place.

I don't "support" abortion, I actually discourage it, but when push comes to shove, there are situations where the pregnancy has to be executed for the child and mother's benefit.

More than 50% of the people rallying in front of abortion clinics are men. Please.

i don't believe in protests in front of abortion clinics. that is inhumane to the women. i don't believe in scaring them or humiliating them or anything demeaning. helping them yes. hurting them, no.

 

[MJsBollywoodGirl7]

I am definitely pro-choice.

Especially for if the mother was rape. And that lady doesn't want to spend the next 9 months carrying around a constent reminder of how she became pregnant in the first place. I know I certainly don't want that. And if the pregnancy was putting the mother's health in danger.

 

[Grand Master S]

and so we give them the front seat by granting them Godlike power over who is to live or who is to die so long as it dwells within them?

Uh huh. I fade out when the discussion shifts into a feminist issue. My mental reaction to that is normally "don't care, you're killing a human." And I do consider it a human if it's alive, being that it's obviously not a frog or a puppy that's developing. But even more gross than killing a fellow human (if you don't consider it a human) is that it's your own dependant offspring inside of you. Sick. Needless to say why I only find the action justifiable in extreme scenarios. I also don't buy that it's all right to terminate if you learn the child will be handicapped or that it's a "possibility" that he or she may die. It sounds to me like someone saying these peoples' existence is of lesser value than other children. If there's a chance of life, they are worth it.

In a perfect world, you could ban abortion save some specific conditions, and it'd work out all right. Sadly, you have to deal with a fall-out that's probably going to be crappy if you actually outlawed it in the real world.

12 year old little girls getting impregnated is not what is making up the 1.5 million abortions in this country every year. it is being made up mostly not by the exceptions but by the ones who see it as the means to terminate what is unwanted should they end up pregnant and they do nothing to prevent it in the first place.

Dead on.

 

[Ape]

I was not going to come back in here but.. here I am.

I want to say to the argument that if it cannot live outside the womb then..... etc.
A newborn baby cannot live outside the womb without care either. If you just left the baby there after giving birth, without the mother or someone caring for it, then it's not going to survive on it's own. So if you want to look at the fetus as a parasite on the woman's body till born, just wait till after.

I don't know what kind of argument that is that I just said.. but it's something that came to mind. Take it as you wish to.

 

[Soso Deaf]

I was not going to come back in here but.. here I am.

I want to say to the argument that if it cannot live outside the womb then..... etc.
A newborn baby cannot live outside the womb without care either. If you just left the baby there after giving birth, without the mother or someone caring for it, then it's not going to survive on it's own. So if you want to look at the fetus as a parasite on the woman's body till born, just wait till after.

I don't know what kind of argument that is that I just said.. but it's something that came to mind. Take it as you wish to.

now ur stretching it too far....

the whole 'live outside thewomb on it's own' means that if it were taken out of the mother, could it breathe on it's own? if the answer is NO, then it is independent of the mother and is still not a life that can thrive...

just like if someone were to murder a preg. woman...ONLY after the late 5th month or early 6th do they count the fetus as a life and murder of one turns into two counts of murder...b/c u can put a baby that was only 6 months in gestation on a ventilator.

u cannot put an embryo on a ventilator, that's what that means....

and friend, the argument then becomes, when does life start? my religion believes the minute conception happens, a soul is breathed into the baby....others don't think so until the baby is further along and some don't think a life is a life until the cord is cut.

so to impose another's idea of when life starts isn't fair if someone doesn't believe in it....everyone has a right to make their own choices

 

[GiveintomeMJ]

i remember when i was a teenager... knew i didn't want to get pregnant... so i went to the local planned parenthood... now my parents are catholic so this act in and of itself was a sin... if i was choosing to have sex i am choosing to get pregnant and birth control was a sin... as a smart 16 yr old i said eff that i went in secret.

i remember half a dozen times in the 1.5 yrs i went to that clinic that i was harassed b/c the people there to "pray for my immortal soul"

do you know how terrified I was to have people banging on the window to my car saying "I'm going to pray for you, we can help you, etc." and did they listen when i said i wasn't preggos... noooOoOoOoOOOo
my BIGGEST problem w/ppl even going to "silently pray" there was there's a certain confidentiality that people should have and just by being there you could see someone you know and blab it out to the world. i was SO SCARED someone from my church would recognize me and I would be dubbed a "baby killer" even tho i never was pregnant! I started hiding my face when driving in and out of that place

just thought i'd share my experience w/the pro-lifers

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

i remember when i was a teenager... knew i didn't want to get pregnant... so i went to the local planned parenthood... now my parents are catholic so this act in and of itself was a sin... if i was choosing to have sex i am choosing to get pregnant and birth control was a sin... as a smart 16 yr old i said eff that i went in secret.

i remember half a dozen times in the 1.5 yrs i went to that clinic that i was harassed b/c the people there to "pray for my immortal soul"

do you know how terrified I was to have people banging on the window to my car saying "I'm going to pray for you, we can help you, etc." and did they listen when i said i wasn't preggos... noooOoOoOoOOOo
my BIGGEST problem w/ppl even going to "silently pray" there was there's a certain confidentiality that people should have and just by being there you could see someone you know and blab it out to the world. i was SO SCARED someone from my church would recognize me and I would be dubbed a "baby killer" even tho i never was pregnant! I started hiding my face when driving in and out of that place

just thought i'd share my experience w/the pro-lifers

ugh uch: that sounds terrifying. they shouldnt have gotten in your personal space like that. like i said before, i dont agree with that and when i do it i dont talk to any of the women. im sure they didnt mean to scare you like that. and the fact that you where afraid ppl would recognize you..i never thought of that kind of situation..so thanks for sharing

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

i remember when i was a teenager... knew i didn't want to get pregnant... so i went to the local planned parenthood... now my parents are catholic so this act in and of itself was a sin... if i was choosing to have sex i am choosing to get pregnant and birth control was a sin... as a smart 16 yr old i said eff that i went in secret.

i remember half a dozen times in the 1.5 yrs i went to that clinic that i was harassed b/c the people there to "pray for my immortal soul"

do you know how terrified I was to have people banging on the window to my car saying "I'm going to pray for you, we can help you, etc." and did they listen when i said i wasn't preggos... noooOoOoOoOOOo
my BIGGEST problem w/ppl even going to "silently pray" there was there's a certain confidentiality that people should have and just by being there you could see someone you know and blab it out to the world. i was SO SCARED someone from my church would recognize me and I would be dubbed a "baby killer" even tho i never was pregnant! I started hiding my face when driving in and out of that place

just thought i'd share my experience w/the pro-lifers

ugh that sounds terrifying. they shouldnt have gotten in your personal space like that. like i said before, i dont agree with that and when i do it i dont talk to any of the women. im sure they didnt mean to scare you like that. and the fact that you where afraid ppl would recognize you..i never thought of that kind of situation..so thanks for sharing

 

[arXter]

easily. it was living, perhaps via the mother as the host, but nevertheless was living, and when it is terminated, it is no longer living. that is murder. the "outside the womb" terminology is only the technicality that is currently in use to justify it and to make the name prettier calling it abortion vs. murder. the life has been prematurely ended. it is murder by whatever name one chooses to call it.

i have to correct you on the definition of murder - it is the unlawful ending of another human being.

and i agree with your criticism of the usual play on semantics, however aren't you also doing the same?

i say this because you are stepping on what are already morally-problematic grounds when dealing with 'murder' for adults (see euthanasia, capital punishment). shouldn't we also take into consideration one of the most fundamental differences between an early developing foetus and most adults, and that is consciousness?

as i said earlier, i don't have a black and white answer or a judgement on such a complex issue that has not affected me personally, but i do think one has to consider every factor in place here.

with regards to consciousness, you could strongly argue that it is nonetheless the formation of a human being, however the lack of consciousness does not allow the full attribution of 'personhood' - that is having individual characteristics and feelings. this difference should be considered when you want to analogise the abortion of an unconscious foetus to the unlawful killing of a conscious adult.

and this is not by any means my supporting argument for abortion (i have other conflicting views), however i'm trying to counter this absolutist use of the word 'murder' that you've been so adamant about.

 

[GiveintomeMJ]

well then i'm glad i shared it so that you understand what its like to have that fear...

especially when they assume u are there to do something that you are NOT doing and not being believed... i felt awful! like i wanted to get out and fight em b/c y'all don't know me and why I'm here!

the place i went to offered OB care to those who couldn't afford it... so these ppl could have potentially prevented a young woman from getting pre-natal care b/c she may not have been as brave as i was to go in despite people being there...

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

i have to correct you on the definition of murder - it is the unlawful ending of another human being.

and i agree with your criticism of the usual play on semantics, however aren't you also doing the same?

i say this because you are stepping on what are already morally-problematic grounds when dealing with 'murder' for adults (see euthanasia, capital punishment). shouldn't we also take into consideration one of the most fundamental differences between an early developing foetus and most adults, and that is consciousness?

as i said earlier, i don't have a black and white answer or a judgement on such a complex issue that has not affected me personally, but i do think one has to consider every factor in place here.

with regards to consciousness, you could strongly argue that it is nonetheless the formation of a human being, however the lack of consciousness does not allow the full attribution of 'personhood' - that is having individual characteristics and feelings. this difference should be considered when you want to analogise the abortion of an unconscious foetus to the unlawful killing of a conscious adult.

and this is not by any means my supporting argument for abortion (i have other conflicting views), however i'm trying to counter this absolutist use of the word 'murder' that you've been so adamant about.

good points, ArXter! :flowers: and since thats the definition of murder youre right..its not considered murdrer. just like the government though for it to only be murder if they think its murder. since its still a living being, fully concious or not, i think it should still be murder. i think its worse then killing a grown man and the reason for that is the man got to live...and the baby did not. the baby didnt even have a chance to.

i really like what you said tho.

 

[GiveintomeMJ]

yeah but the baby doesn't know that... it doesn't have conscious thought or recognize that at all... it doesn't have children/people that it is supporting and that depend on that person...

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

yeah but the baby doesn't know that... it doesn't have conscious thought or recognize that at all... it doesn't have children/people that it is supporting and that depend on that person...

i still think Amercia should be a voice to those who have no voice at all. "voice for the voiceless" . they have no one to speak for them, and do you really think they shouldnt have a life just because they dont know whats going on?

 

[arXter]

good points, ArXter! :flowers: and since thats the definition of murder youre right..its not considered murdrer. just like the government though for it to only be murder if they think its murder. since its still a living being, fully concious or not, i think it should still be murder. i think its worse then killing a grown man and the reason for that is the man got to live...and the baby did not. the baby didnt even have a chance to.

i really like what you said tho.

 

[GiveintomeMJ]

unfortunately, this issue is not black and white, there are many gray areas so I wouldn't call it murder. there is so much more going on in our world that's sooooo much more important than this.... murder is when the man who is caring for his handicapped children is shot in cold blood on the street corner who now have no one to care for them and enter group homes for the rest of their lives....

if we wanted to take it a step further, do we call it abuse when the crack addict is smoking crack and chooses NOT to abort the child who will be born addicted and with birth defects and die in pain a few days later... i would.... i'd rather the pregnancy be terminated in a painless manner where they are not suffering...

the fact is many ppl don't choose the other options, look at all the babies abandoned in garbage cans, etc. that die alone in the cold b/c the mother felt she didn't have options (be it abortion, adoption, etc.)

i'm gonna join lj on her education is key soapbox

another thing that just popped in my head... imagine if all those abortions were not conducted and instead put up for adoption... holy crap would our society be overloaded w/all those babies and we'd have to start up the good ole' fashioned orphanages LOL

 

[friend]

now ur stretching it too far....

and friend, the argument then becomes, when does life start? my religion believes the minute conception happens, a soul is breathed into the baby....others don't think so until the baby is further along and some don't think a life is a life until the cord is cut.

so to impose another's idea of when life starts isn't fair if someone doesn't believe in it....everyone has a right to make their own choices

my points to believers is that you cannot believe in God and support abortion. you have to make a choice. if you cave in and go along with man's ideas, then you're not putting your faith in God. all my references to God are to believers who say they support abortion not to non-believers.

my argument against to impose another's idea of when life starts isnt' fair.... is that to impose someone's need to feel empowered by taking the life of the baby away without it having any way whatsoever to defend itself from that woman's "power" is beyond not fair.

 

[friend]

i have to correct you on the definition of murder - it is the unlawful ending of another human being.

and i agree with your criticism of the usual play on semantics, however aren't you also doing the same?

i say this because you are stepping on what are already morally-problematic grounds when dealing with 'murder' for adults (see euthanasia, capital punishment). shouldn't we also take into consideration one of the most fundamental differences between an early developing foetus and most adults, and that is consciousness?

as i said earlier, i don't have a black and white answer or a judgement on such a complex issue that has not affected me personally, but i do think one has to consider every factor in place here.

with regards to consciousness, you could strongly argue that it is nonetheless the formation of a human being, however the lack of consciousness does not allow the full attribution of 'personhood' - that is having individual characteristics and feelings. this difference should be considered when you want to analogise the abortion of an unconscious foetus to the unlawful killing of a conscious adult.

and this is not by any means my supporting argument for abortion (i have other conflicting views), however i'm trying to counter this absolutist use of the word 'murder' that you've been so adamant about.

i can appreciate your objective take on my use, however, that is how i see it, semantics and theories aside. i will always see it that way regardless of the legal or webster dictionary definition. i'm assuming you probably took the legal definition, but to me, that is all technicalities. the end result to me is what is of importance, and that is that a life has been ended through no fault of its own and without any defense either.

 

[Soso Deaf]

i don't support abortion, i support the right of choice. we all make choices, we choose to have sex and do so either w/ or w/o protection, we choose tokeep or end the pregnancy, and we choose to take care of our children or neglect them

everyone has a choice and the life of an established person, at least old enough to get preg. should carry more weight then that of something unable to take a breath or make a decision.....

 

[friend]

i don't support abortion, i support the right of choice. we all make choices, we choose to have sex and do so either w/ or w/o protection, we choose tokeep or end the pregnancy, and we choose to take care of our children or neglect them

everyone has a choice and the life of an established person, at least old enough to get preg. should carry more weight then that of something unable to take a breath or make a decision.....

why? this is where i don't understand the logic employed. IF a person has the choice to protect themselves from getting pregnant but chooses not to, then why should they be given the choice after the fact to "take care of it" through aborting it? why does that hold more weight than the baby's right to life? it did not choose for the woman to have unprotected sex. she did.

 

[L.J]

another thing that just popped in my head... imagine if all those abortions were not conducted and instead put up for adoption... holy crap would our society be overloaded w/all those babies and we'd have to start up the good ole' fashioned orphanages LOL

ugh and they weren't a great thing either....
I have a story about my horrible grandma who desperately wanted a little girl (she only had my father at this stage).... and every summer she would take this same little girl from an orphanage and spend the summer with this child. Now my nonna had the money and the resources to keep this child that she claimed she loved.... and back then she didn't need to jump through hoops to be awarded custody of that little girl. But instead she would parade the child around all summer like it was her girls scout act for the year... and that she was a great catholic and then she would return the child to this orphanage.
I don't think I'll ever understand her actions in regards to this and it makes me wonder, how many others did this with children in orphanages?


I'm with arXter I never want to see an absolute decision on such a complex matter.

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

cheers, Megs.

i personally wouldn't attribute murder to abortion, however my strongest argument against abortion is that the DNA sequence was already established after the very first human cell forms and you'd know the exact potential for how the foetus will develop those characteristics and feelings that go with consciousness just by examining the DNA.

then again, 'potential' does not mean that consciousness exists (and it doesn't in the early stages). and we could also take the 'potential' point right up to the decision of putting on a rubber! but it is still a strong point in my view.

however, even then i wouldn't call it murder since it is much more complex than that and there are obviously many different circumstances for both the foetus and the mother which go beyond the already hazy meaning for 'murder'.

i oppose absolutist thinking on such a broad level.

I respect that. but i think its as simple as this: take away weather its conscious or not, wather it can breathe outside the womb or not, and you are still killing a living creature, therefore its murder. that goes for humans and animals alike. I think its sad that the government doesnt think so. I think thats just an excuse for them to get away with doing it legally.

unfortunately, this issue is not black and white, there are many gray areas so I wouldn't call it murder. there is so much more going on in our world that's sooooo much more important than this.... murder is when the man who is caring for his handicapped children is shot in cold blood on the street corner who now have no one to care for them and enter group homes for the rest of their lives....

if we wanted to take it a step further, do we call it abuse when the crack addict is smoking crack and chooses NOT to abort the child who will be born addicted and with birth defects and die in pain a few days later... i would.... i'd rather the pregnancy be terminated in a painless manner where they are not suffering...

the fact is many ppl don't choose the other options, look at all the babies abandoned in garbage cans, etc. that die alone in the cold b/c the mother felt she didn't have options (be it abortion, adoption, etc.)

i'm gonna join lj on her education is key soapbox

another thing that just popped in my head... imagine if all those abortions were not conducted and instead put up for adoption... holy crap would our society be overloaded w/all those babies and we'd have to start up the good ole' fashioned orphanages LOL

yes I agree with you. I would rather it be painless as well! the more you can do to prevent pain, the better. But i still think the govt should do a better job of trying to lay out the options for the women so they dont feel lost and use our tax money for that instead of using our money for the war and to SUPPORT adoption...for killing.

my points to believers is that you cannot believe in God and support abortion. you have to make a choice. if you cave in and go along with man's ideas, then you're not putting your faith in God. all my references to God are to believers who say they support abortion not to non-believers.

my argument against to impose another's idea of when life starts isnt' fair.... is that to impose someone's need to feel empowered by taking the life of the baby away without it having any way whatsoever to defend itself from that woman's "power" is beyond not fair.

AMEN to that! :clap:

i don't support abortion, i support the right of choice. we all make choices, we choose to have sex and do so either w/ or w/o protection, we choose tokeep or end the pregnancy, and we choose to take care of our children or neglect them

everyone has a choice and the life of an established person, at least old enough to get preg. should carry more weight then that of something unable to take a breath or make a decision.....

a mere choice is more important then a life? the child shouldnt have any lesser value just b/c it cant breathe or make decisions...its not like the child can help it.