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lets talk abortion!

thanks GITM. that would be interesting. i agree about stat manipulation. i dont believe the stats they posted were put together by their group. i believe they cited where their stats came from.
 
Stats don't change anyones opinion anyways. Nor do facts it seems. Emotions and experience do. So does seeing....Maybe seeing a piece of the mass of tissue that has been aborted might explain a few things as they say a picture is worth a thousand words
 
GiveintomeMJ said:
i got my statistics from a US gov't website. i will try to find the site i was on and let u know as I am now on a different computer and don't have the history to look it up...

also... i would want to see the stats from a neutral organization or at least see what a pro-choice organization would say as i see you have cited abortionno.org... i wonder which way they'd want their stats to go LOL

stats are so easy to manipulate too (i've run many research projects and can verify that!) so thats why i'd want a neutral organization's numbers... not that i'm saying the gov't is neutral but it's probably the closest you could come in this argument...
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ur not going to find neuturality.

if we're talking manipulation..who doesn't do that?

the fact is...numbers shouldn't even be the issue here...

the us gov. considers this practice to be legal. so they're not going to be neutural. not even close.
 
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Minnie said:
I don't like either word, pro-life or pro-choice...

I am against the idea of abortion without a doubt. I believe that life begins at conception, and I believe that it is a unborn baby at conception. I absolutely do not believe in having an abortion because a baby is inconvinient... That's what concraptions are for...

But what to do when the woman was raped because some guy either couldn't take no for an answer, or because he is mentally ill and doesn't know what he is doing? What do you do if the mother is a drug addict who at her state of mind due to drugs - or maybe mental illness - simply isn't able to worry about pills and condoms? What do you do if initial scans show deformities that would kill the baby within days of birth - or maybe hours?

What do you do in a not-so black and white world?

I look at teenagers getting abortions because they're premiscious and can't be bothered? I know and realize that a teenager will only go through that once cause it leaves heavy emotional scars - but that's still one baby lost.

I believe in the possibility of abortion. Not for me, at all, but for those who simply don't see any other way. For those who would have it done in the back-alley is abortion was illegal. I don't believe in mutilating women because they are desperate.

I really more than anything believe in education. I believe that in those places are teens are given an abortion the second the say they want one, that a waiting period should be installed. Say a 1 week application period where the woman is given all the available information on her options: Abortion, Adoption, raising the baby etc. That there is more support for single mothers, and that anyone pregnant can get immediate and free drug counselling and treatment.

Then if she really doesn't see any other way, allow the abortion along with some sort of counselling.

Prevent abortions... don't illegalize them.
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exactly. alot of women are confused and scared...they either dont seem to give it much thought or they have given it much thought but oly b/c they are pressured to do so or are told over and over again its the only way("when you are told something over and over again, you start to believe it." ;) ). then when its done it hits them..be it right away or a year after..and theyre like, "OH no, what have i done?!" if they would have been told the choices like you said, they wouldnt have killed in the name of a mere choice, and they would have been saved from the burden of the emotional scars that usually happen afterwards. very good points. and yes the womn should still be allowed to have the abortion after all the options where told to her...GOD did give us free will, after all. and i think EVERY woman should get counceling after an abortion...i pity those women. if they dont get help, they could go into depression!

 
in case anyone forgot the rules... pictures of aborted fetus's would be a violation of MJJCs rules... thanks...
 
some interesting stats re: adoption that i found @ the US census bureau

in 2007 there were 130,000 children under 16 whose parents rights were terminated and were placed for adoption and were waiting in foster care for someone to adopt them....


16%: Percentage of adopted children under 18 who are black. Additionally, 7 percent are Asian and 2 percent are American Indian and Alaska native. Adopted children are more likely to be of these race groups than are biological children or stepchildren.


http://www.census.gov/Press-Release...cts_for_features_special_editions/002683.html
 
do not play games with me, there are children on this board... there are people who do not want to see masses of tissues...

if i see it again... the person who posts will be banned...

this is why we have never had a thread on abortion last more than a few days...
 
You're the boss.. If a child wanders into a thread on this topic, I would hope they would be allowed to see all sides including the facts. Censoring this topic is a reason most people don't realize what it actually is and why there is even abortion to start with.
 
Ape said:
You're the boss.. If a child wanders into a thread on this topic, I would hope they would be allowed to see all sides including the facts. Censoring this topic is a reason most people don't realize what it actually is and why there is even abortion to start with.
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agreed ape! if its just a picture of a developing baby, whats the big deal? i can understand tho.

 
No, I posted a photo of the remains of a child who was aborted to show that it ISN'T just a mass of tissue.
BTW, I DO respect the person who wrote that term. It isn't them I have an issue with. It is the terminology used that people are familiar with. I have issue with the ones who are coming up with ways to gloss over it all and make it not the big deal it should be. (NOT the regular every day person, not the people who are posting here.. the ones who started spreading the message of "choice" to begin with. The ones making the laws. I don't have an issue with the women who are choosing to have an abortion either. I pity them for being fooled into thinking that that is their only real choice.)
 
Ape, there is a difference between censorship and using common sense.
You can present both sides of the debate in here without the need of graphic images.... (this is evident already as both sides of this debate are being well discussed by community members already).


If you guys can't move on from this I'll simply consider this thread a lost cause and close the thread.

Take 5 minutes to go off and think about something else cause we wont be changing our stance on this matter.
 
thank you LJ

yes if you cannot discuss this topic w/o the need for graphic pictures than we will simply close the topic.

every time this topic comes up someone posts these types of photos... people are offended by them on both sides... there's no need to post them... and they are ALWAYS removed. (and usually its those types of tactics that lead to the threads being closed btw)

i don't recall personally saying anything about anything being a mass of tissues but everyone has the right to their opinion
 
It's sad how it is all taught. Showing only parts of the truth. It IS sad seeing the photos or there would not be a problem. I will be educating my children about all sides without leaving any parts out. (YES even the pro-choice side FROM their stance on it). I think children are smarter than adults at understanding many topics.

There is no common sense when it comes to this issue. I happen to be very passionate about PEOPLE and Life. If my common sense slips out the door when discussing this issue I apologize, because I know that as people, we cannot look at that and feel good about the decision to abort. I know there are probably people on here who have had abortions or know someone close to them who had one. That makes it even harder to look at such a photo. Life isn't always pretty though. Death certainly isn't pretty.

As much as I try to see the other side in almost every issue including Mr. Jacksons AND even my own...the abortion one..it makes me sick that there is even a side to begin with. Why is it ever an option to take a life? If the pro-choicers want to call it a non-human, a lump of tissue, then they can take a look at that tissue and accept it as "non-human" without recoiling back in the horror of what it actually is. Those are HUMAN fingers and hands and arms.... that have been ripped apart from his or her body, and that is the bottom line. People need to stop blaming the child..... it was never ever the childs fault. It's just a result.....Children are the blessing.

And if anyone says I don't have compassion for the mother who aborted...excuse me woman or child that aborted.. well they don't know me. I don't have much compassion for the ones who change their mind and decide nah, I don't want it anymore. The relationship didn't work, or I lost my job, just not the right time anymore. Since WHEN Does life have perfect timing in our eyes??? When do things work out just how we wish them to? AND WHEN THEY DO... we are unsatisfied or disappointed...why??? because just because we think we have it all figured out, we don't. We are a screwed up world.... THAT is why I hate this debate. There shouldn't even be one. Maybe people need to start really caring about the "mother". Maybe people need to support the woman through the pregnancy and adoption processes if they chose not to keep the child. Maybe we need to truly hold accountable the rapers as well. Maybe they need to financially support the child through the court system so the mother never has to ever deal with them, but she knows he is being punished for what he did. Maybe we need to treat our children like the fabulous miracles they are. Maybe we need to treat ALL people as miracles and gifts rather than expendable things.. may as well be robots.

It ANGERS me..and saddens me all at once..
I don't hate the women who have abortions.. I pity them. They've been led to believe that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing.
 
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GiveintomeMJ said:
my stats came from the department of justice :)
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:) ty. i checked, that site posted where they took their numbers from:

"All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives. "

Ape i applaud your passion. it is an issue that brings forth passion on both sides. i am glad yours is on the pro-life side. i too feel compassion for those who have abortions. many of those who have abortions deeply regret it afterwards and there are probably numbers on related suicides also. i disagree that it is not about numbers or statistics however. while statistics are not absolutes each one represents the loss of a life that "might" have survived (certainly would have stood a better chance of living) had these women been provided with options other than destroying it. and while they most likely were presented with other options, you can see which one was promoted the most successfully to them. lest we not forget, this is a money making racket. it is indeed a screwed up world.
 
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friend said:
:) ty. i checked, that site posted where they took their numbers from:

"All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives. "

Ape i applaud your passion. it is an issue that brings forth passion on both sides. i am glad yours is on the pro-life side. i too feel compassion for those who have abortions. many of those who have abortions deeply regret it afterwards and there are probably numbers on related suicides also. i disagree that it is not about numbers or statistics however. while statistics are not absolutes each one represents the loss of a life that "might" have survived (certainly would have stood a better chance of living) had these women been provided with options other than destroying it. and while they most likely were presented with other options, you can see which one was promoted the most successfully to them. lest we not forget, this is a money making racket. it is indeed a screwed up world.
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the reason why i said it's not about the numbers is because 1 is one too many. and it's obvious that it's gone beyond 1. so it doesn't matter who is manipulating what.
 
i say everyone who's against it, take care of the unwanted babies taht aren't aborted due to protesting outside clinics.....

ur supoort of the 'fetus' stops once it's born and is a live human. or let's attack a doctor who performs abortions....so we can take a life but we can't? confused on my end...it's a woman's choice.
 
soso deaf said:
i say everyone who's against it, take care of the unwanted babies taht aren't aborted due to protesting outside clinics.....

ur supoort of the 'fetus' stops once it's born and is a live human. or let's attack a doctor who performs abortions....so we can take a life but we can't? confused on my end...it's a woman's choice.
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so a choice is more important then a life? thats really where the line is between pro life and choice...one, the choice is more important then the life of the baby, the other life is more important. as much as we like to sugarcoat it.

i dont agree with loud protesters at abortion clinics...i mean come on. that usually either just makes the women thinking about abortion more frustrated..or more motivated. "i dont have to give into those protesters..im better then that." thats what i would think, anyways...protesting doesnt do any good. peaceful protesting, with praying and singing...thats the way to go.

i think if the woman ends up deciding on not having the child and needs help, she should go to a non profit organization that helps women going through that. i have come across alot of ppl who either help with that, or encorage that..and all those ppl where pro-life. there are places out there that are for just that--help struggling women who either have the child and are scared and dont know what to do..or have an abortion and feel burdened with guilt afterward, and all the ppl that ive heard about this from where pro-life. Like i stressed before....i pity these women...espeically those that have the abortion, because of the burden of guilt they usually feel.

 
This is probably the most complicated issue, socially, politically and morally.

I am completely non-religious and anti-religious. I don't identify with any religion, I don't believe in deities and I am generally against religion as a whole. But even I don't like the idea of killing something that's nearly human. When it just a blob of goo I don't feel any squeamishness about "killing" it. But when it's got little tiny fingers and toes, I do.

I can understand some of the reasons why mothers may choose to have an abortion. Health is definitely a legitimate reason. So is rape and incest. No question. If the reason is because the mother can't financially support the child, then I'm iffy about it but I'd probably still be OK with an abortion being performed in the early stages of pregnancy.

You could make it that abortion is illegal except in the cases or rape, incest or the health of the mother. But some pregnant mothers, especially teenagers, who feel like their lives would be ruined by a baby and they can't possibly support it, would turn to very unsafe methods of getting rid of the baby and you'd find 16-year-olds lying dead in a pool of blood with a coat hanger stuck halfway up themselves.

So for the obvious cons of making abortion illegal I support freedom of choice and making abortion a private matter between the mother and her doctor. I'm pro-choice but I find the idea of cutting little humans up into tiny pieces squeamish to say the least.
 
ugh see this is where I have an issue, protestors at abortion clinics disgust me. Their tactics are cruel and insensitive. They have made their choice to say no to abortion... so my opinion is that if they end up pregnant then good for them they can act on their choice to be pro-life... but they have no right to be forcing their choice onto someone else who does not have the same belief system as them and has made the other choice.

One popular tactic for these pro-lifers is to create a fake abortion clinic and then when the woman comes in they show her pictures of dead babies and aborted fetuses to scare her out of her decision. Or alternatively they go into these places and burst into the room with a present and balloon "congratulations!!!" and the photos and propaganda are in the giftbox...

and contrary to your thoughts bl00dpynix, most women end up getting guilted into having the child after experiencing those tactics. (gotta find my stats and i'll post em).


soso is so damn right though.... most pro-lifers only protest until the birth... they are quite happy for the woman to act as incubator... and once the baby is born they move on... and they never bat an eyelid or offer apologies when that baby dies two days later because it wasn't able to sustain itself outside the womb, or the mother was a drug addict and takes the child home only to think it is a bag of popcorn and cooks it in the microwave. Or when the mother is told that if she takes the baby to fullterm she will most likely die along with the baby... and then sure enough there they go...

Doctors hold life sacred they are not about to start willy nilly killing off "babies"
 
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Bob George said:
This is probably the most complicated issue, socially, politically and morally.

I am completely non-religious and anti-religious. I don't identify with any religion, I don't believe in deities and I am generally against religion as a whole. But even I don't like the idea of killing something that's nearly human. When it just a blob of goo I don't feel any squeamishness about "killing" it. But when it's got little tiny fingers and toes, I do.

I can understand some of the reasons why mothers may choose to have an abortion. Health is definitely a legitimate reason. So is rape and incest. No question. If the reason is because the mother can't financially support the child, then I'm iffy about it but I'd probably still be OK with an abortion being performed in the early stages of pregnancy.

You could make it that abortion is illegal except in the cases or rape, incest or the health of the mother. But some pregnant mothers, especially teenagers, who feel like their lives would be ruined by a baby and they can't possibly support it, would turn to very unsafe methods of getting rid of the baby and you'd find 16-year-olds lying dead in a pool of blood with a coat hanger stuck halfway up themselves.

So for the obvious cons of making abortion illegal I support freedom of choice and making abortion a private matter between the mother and her doctor. I'm pro-choice but I find the idea of cutting little humans up into tiny pieces squeamish to say the least.
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most definatly understood. i can understand rape, but i would hope its the morning after pill or an abortion in the early stages, that way at least the baby and possibly the mother dont have to suffer excrutiating pain. even then i dont agree with it...but i understand. especially considering hoe emotionally scarring rape is! i cant even imagine! i think it would be better tho for the woman to have the baby so she desnt feel guilty and it gives her something to be proud of you know? to think she went through all that hell..and she was still able to have the baby. id sure be proud of that. and if she had an abortion shed probably have the guilt after..

thats just it. teenagers shouldnt feel like they have no other choice, because its not true. like mentioned before, education is key. they have to know that they have other choices. mercifully of corse.

 
Bl00dyphynix said:
thats just it. teenagers shouldnt feel like they have no other choice, because its not true. like mentioned before, education is key. they have to know that they have other choices. mercifully of corse.
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very true, and not just for teenagers, but for misinformed adults both men and women :yes:
 
L.J said:
ugh see this is where I have an issue, protestors at abortion clinics disgust me. Their tactics are cruel and insensitive. They have made their choice to say no to abortion... so my opinion is that if they end up pregnant then good for them they can act on their choice to be pro-life... but they have no right to be forcing their choice onto someone else who does not have the same belief system as them and has made the other choice.

One popular tactic for these pro-lifers is to create a fake abortion clinic and then when the woman comes in they show her pictures of dead babies and aborted fetuses to scare her out of her decision. Or alternatively they go into these places and burst into the room with a present and balloon "congratulations!!!" and the photos and propaganda are in the giftbox...

and contrary to your thoughts bl00dpynix, most women end up getting guilted into having the child after experiencing those tactics. (gotta find my stats and i'll post em).


soso is so damn right though.... most pro-lifers only protest until the birth... they are quite happy for the woman to act as incubator... and once the baby is born they move on... and they never bat an eyelid or offer apologies when that baby dies two days later because it wasn't able to sustain itself outside the womb, or the mother was a drug addict and takes the child home only to think it is a bag of popcorn and cooks it in the microwave. Or when the mother is told that if she takes the baby to fullterm she will most likely die along with the baby... and then sure enough there they go...

Doctors hold life sacred they are not about to start willy nilly killing off "babies"
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THATS HORRIBLE. :eek: i hope you realize not every pro-lifer is that pathetic. i remember the first time i went to an abortion clinic with my church. we feel bad for these women. my youth director told us that we where there to pray, and unless they aproach US, we are not to talk to the women. some that are unsure sometimes come to those protesting and ask if there is really a way out...and, if the pro-lifer they approach has any sense, kindly gives her the options and motivation, and doesnt victimize her. ive heard stories about women whos lives have changed because of a peaceful protester that helped her out, and with tears streaming down her cheeks said she wouldnt know what she would have done if her child wasnt in her life and how much GOD blessed her through the help she got. i dont agree with what you mentioned at all. if it wasnt so horrible it would be humorous. its pathetic and barberic. i dont get how they think they are helping by doing that!

like i said before, there are places these women could go to for help..with ppl who actually care about the women as much as the baby.

 
I went to a crisis pregnancy center when pregnant with my first baby. I was 18 and unsure what I was going to do. The people who ran it were all pro-life but I didn't know this until later on. They presented ALL the options in a way that it was totally my choice to make. For myself though I already knew that abortion was not going to be one of my options. These women (and men) in that center helped the girls and women through every stage and through any choice they made. They actually were there for the women who had abortions, they would go with them to the clinics and everything if thats what they wanted. Then they were there for them afterwards if they needed counsellings or just a friend. The ones who chose adoption, they would lead them through that, and the ones who chose to have the babies and keep them were also given support until they could make it without. If I called even today for help, they would, or they'd point me in the direction where I could get help. These people support emotionally and financially and in any and every way that they can. Most of the volunteers are women who were in those situations themselves years ago and want to give back. They know how scary it is to be pregnant and young, or have an unplanned pregnancy. So I don't know how they are where anyone else lives, but here, they are full of compassion and their help does not stop the moment the baby is born...not at all.
 
Bl00dyphynix said:
THATS HORRIBLE. :eek: i hope you realize not every pro-lifer is that pathetic.
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Oh I definatley am aware that not all pro-lifers are like that :)

at least the action that you guys took (even though I still don't agree with it) is not active or intrusive, rather that you are there in case someone comes along with the need of spiritual guidance... and allow them to approach you rather than you approaching them.

Plus there is also the example that Ape posted as well. :yes:


not all pro-lifers are out to condem women who make the choice to abort, and not all pro-choicers are out there trying to encourage rape victims etc to abort .
 
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