Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Who in their right mind would go to Murray as a patient now?

It sounds absurd to consider that a suspect is allowed to continue to practice but I have zero knowledge on medical cases. Is this considered normal practice?

Surprisingly enough, some if not most of his previous patients still trust him enough for him to be their personal physician.

 

[ensleyave]

Re: Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option Update #27

OK, I have been thinking the same thing about Beachlover. SO, since one of the things Michael and I shared was insomnia, I have spent the last half hour (between 2 and 3 am) reading over Beachlovers posts and have consolidated posts that show some sort of opinion one way or the other to Murray or Michael. I have tried to be fair and and not biased with my editing but you are free to check that.

I think it is pretty clear that Beachlover is showing much more compassion and l.o.v.e. to Murray than Michael. So Beachlover, I am not buying your post explaining why you are defending Murray becasue you haven't shown the same compassion to Michael. So, what's up, really?

So here are Beachlovers posts concerning Conrad Murray:



It was not a defense against Murray, but a simple statement meaning that desperate people do desperate things.
I don't know what this man was thinking or the kind of stress he was uinder in his life. I think he thought he was going to make a lot of money and didn't think things through very well past that.
No, he was not paying child support and this was explained by saying that he runs this clinic for poor people and ends up treating patients for free because they have no insurance or means to pay.

He is showing how a person can be backed into a corner and when some big hollywood star comes along offering such a great job, he was influenced by his situation to take it.

Yes, and I am sure he meant it how he said it but it can have many meanings and doesn't incriminate him in any way. I'm not happy to see him out and about but this is the law and he has not yet been charged and if you think about it, he does need money.

He has to 'survive' here. Thats how life is. Sometimes you are put in the position between the rock and the hard place. He is there right now. He isn't arrested. He still has to support himself and he has children to support. It won't happen if he hides away in some room somewhere.

The press has made nothing up on Murray? Are you 100% sure of that?

No one has to forgive this man right now. He isn't asking to be forgiven at all. He isn't asking anything but a fair trial and the 'truth to prevail'. Thats pretty simple.

I don't see how he is a danger to society

I don't think anything this man says or does will satisfy the wolves at his door....and some of the fans act like that.

What stories have you heard from Dr Murray exactly? He hasn't spoken openly about this to anyone but the police right after this whole thing happened. I think the press keeps changing the story but this man has said nothing.

If we fans really should understand one thing and one thing only is that the press paints the story they want us to see. It is not always the truth.

I'm not saying he isn't guilty, but he has not said anything about the case.

Michaels fans seem to be really hurtful and mean at times. I am quite surprised at this since Michaels message was L.O.V.E. and quite frankly, it saddens me that so many of you are quick to hang this man out to dry with a vengeance so quickly.Flame me all you want and I know this guy did everything wrong and I'm sure the police are doing everything they need to do but we can't just change all the rules because its Michael Jackson. Thats not justice. Thats a kangaroo court.

I believe that he is going to show himself to be an upstanding doctor who loved his patients. He is going to show that he works hard to service the poor community. If all of you are right and feel these people read the forums, chat boards, blogs and things of that nature, I am sure they did their research and realize that in order for his image to improve, he needs to be out there improving it.

For all of you who are angry about this, please remember that its only a matter of time before he is arrested

Well, you asked an opinion so here goes.

I really don't like to see things like "He avoided jail by paying enough money" and the other part about charges on him and acquitted but making it appear he was guilty.

Checking on his background is how we know the man had no money and thats likely why he agreed to do this for Michael. Poor isn't a crime.

Here is the thing. I don't want to argue him as a nice guy. Clearly, he screwed up. I just think his life circumstances lead him to this awful place and he took this job with the hopes of fixing his money problems. He was a working cardiologist in a clinic that didn't get paid a lot and he continued to do that for the people who he felt needed him. I am sure he could have gotten a job somewhere else but he wanted to keep this clinic going.

Its easy for all of us to judge but being broke is not a crime.

I understand from my own personal feelings and thoughts that what he did is wrong but is it illegal? How can you prove disregard for human life? That is my point here. And yes, legally there is a difference if someone knows the risks involved.

Example: Before you go for a surgical procedure, or any kind of procedure you must sign a consent saying that you understand the risks and benefits. There are always risks. If you have a complication that was told to you before, and die, then it isn't the doctors fault unless due to negligence.

So, yes, we have proven negligence. So, he loses his license and goes to prison for 4 years and walks away?

I agree but you haven't seen this first hand like I have. They will complain louder and louder. If one doctor says no they will find another. This is just how it is. We don't have to like it or agree with it but thats the bottom line

Don't blame the doctors is what I am saying. Patients often do not want to even think of trying an alternative. I have seen this happen time and time again. What I'm saying is to keep in your mind that it is not always proper to blame the doctor. Keep an open mind.

I have seen how some people react when the doctor says no.

Any physician can administer medication. They are trained to do so. They are supposed to look them up and find out about them beforehand. In any case, using this particular drug, especially in a home setting is way out there but I don't know if that alone was illegal since he can say he did it as an 'off label' treatment for this client. That alone isn't an issue.

However, from what the evidence we have been told...he did not do it practicing a safe standard of care. That part is an issue.





And here are Beachlovers posts concerning Michael:

When the police had enough evidence to convict Michael of a crime, they handcuffed him.

Sure, just as it was Michaels not to ask and not to throw 150,000. a month in some doctors face.

"Originally Posted by MJstarlight
Its not a bad picture. All pics of MJ are beautiful"

Most. We all have our bad days.

AMAs: I am putting my personal feelings for Michael on the side for a moment. Yes, he may have been working on stuff. Yes, he was working hard on something that was never completed. Yes, he should win 'something' or be noticed in some way because he is Michael Jackson; but I don't think taking away from todays talent should have been the way to go. In my heart he is the best and can never be replaced but he isn't here to reap any benefits from this.

AMAs: Thats actually not very fair. She is still entertaining and producing records.

The only reason he hired him was to give him the Propofol.


I never said he was addicted to Propofol as it is not a narcotic. He may have been persistent and wanted that drug because he knew how well it worked but thats not the same thing.

So, he was not referring to just the Propofol but all the medications then. And yes, it was a lot and I thought that immediately and that he had built up a tolerance but its very hard on this forum to say that MJ was obviously taking a lot of medication because everyone says he was not because of his autopsy results (no organ damage) and it seems to upset people here.

I said somewhere that the 10 of Valium with the Versed alone would knock most people out of this world. Even one or the other might do it. We already know that these drugs were not meant for insomnia.

Yet, he had doctors give this to him in Germany and others here have said it was 'by the book' and fine. I never thought this was 'ok' and some one this forum will argue that the poor man needed sleep and was desperate.

I happen to agree that I am sorry he used it and he himself knew it was not wise as many had told him so.

I think if it was not Murray, it would have been another. What just shocks me is that it was not done carefully and I'm surprised MJ allowed that since he knew the drug too.
This is so true. I think many fans mean well and feel they need to uphold his image but don't realize that in doing so they are, in fact, blinded by the truth. Michael WAS a good person and as I have said so many times, he was human. Humans make mistakes sometimes and humans are not perfect.

I never thought he did anything so terrible except there was one time I saw him on a show with his brothers and he was older and he was performing and I thought he actually looked silly but I don't hold that against him. I think it was more a question of feeling like a duck out of water performing with them again.

About TMZ photos of drug raid at Neverland: Well, these are photographs that you can see for yourself, not something they can alter.

Now people are saying they weren't in Michaels name and that must mean they weren't his. Well, we can all form our own opinions and conclusions

I am not saying he is responsible for what Murray did, but I feel as a person he was responsible for allowing this. This does not mean that I think what Murray did was right.
I don't really know how many other physicians Michael asked for this medication. I heard Nurse Lee saying that Michael was asking for a doctor to do this for him at one point, so I have no idea who he asked and who said no before. Only Michael knows who he asked and maybe someone else but they aren't talking.

Sure, but he would have searched further until he found another doctor and that is where MJ is responsible IMHO for his own life. Many of the fans can't understand or don't want to acknowledge that.

See, this is where things become cloudy and sticky. We don't know MJ's part in all of this. We have heard from people who told him not to take this drug. He took it anyway.

Sometimes you can't win. He could have gotten another doctor to do this for him. We just don't know

I think it goes both ways. Many people insist on taking narcotics for pain and refuse to hear otherwise.

There were photographs of the bottles found there and photos of a medicine cabinet in Neverland as well as a room full of oxygen tanks.

The reason the drugs were never brought up at he trial is because they had no reason to mention them as they had nothing to do with the charges.

I think the thing about Propofol is that the addiction is more psychological than anything else. I also think he was warned and he knew what he was going and chose to do it because other methods didn't work for him. Whatever reasons he had, he chose to use this drug in spite of what anyone may have said to him or whatever warnings he heard.
Everyone keeps thinking that because he had no organ damage, he could not possibly have been taking pain or anxiety medication to excess. I don't know if he did or didn't, but just because he had no organ damage doesn't clear him of the other. By the way, the drugs that were found in his system were narcotics

I didn't say he was a bad businessman. I said he wasn't always nice. I look at all the facts and there are times when MJ just didn't pay people. I'm not talking about NOW. I am talking about a lot of issues from the past. Its true. Get over it. If you think you are going to tell me that he didn't have money issues, I can only ask where you are looking cause it isn't reality based.


What I believe constitutes Godlike worship is when fans come here and can't hear anything bad about MJ and insist he didn't take any drugs and never did any wrong. Thats just delusional.

He died of a drug overdose. That says something. He obviously was taking something in order to overdose. Now call me stooopid, but I think thats a potential problem.

Died due to homocide. Murray was the last person standing. He should be suspended. I don't associate with everyone on here because some are not fans.

 

[enlightenu]

I've always been suspicious about certain new ones on here with their 'objective' posts. I can see right through them. I notice how these types of posters strive to make to feel guilty or accuse of god worship, anyone who defends Michael, praises and credits Michael or who questions the drug addict label and who...God forbids, says that Murray is a murderer.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

He died of a drug overdose. That says something. He obviously was taking something in order to overdose. Now call me stooopid, but I think thats a potential problem.

eh??! well doh yeah he was taking diprivan that a doctor injected him with to help him sleep

 

[TeharaMJ]

This has baffled me....surely American medical councils should be concerned about this easy access to anaesthesia and administration outside of an acute hospital setting?

I am just utterly baffled...

 

[Sophielo]

I've always been suspicious about certain new ones on here with their 'objective' posts. I can see right through them. I notice how these types of posters strive to make to feel guilty or accuse of god worship, anyone who defends Michael, praises and credits Michael or who questions the drug addict label and who...God forbids, says that Murray is a murderer.

I agree. Was Michael perfect, no of course not, no one is perfect and the whole should he have been asking for propofol in the first place should be taking place in the investigation forum, not here. But here is the thing. Just because someone asks you for something does not mean you should be giving it to them. Conrad Murray is a doctor and should have known better. He could have easily have said no, but he didn't. The $150,000 a month told him otherwise. So he injected MJ with propofol. Didn't have the right equipment and didn't monitor his patient. He left the room and when he returned MJ wasn't breathing. He delayed in calling the emergency services. Everyone knows if you see a person not breathing call 911 straight away. There is no other way of interpreting this. Dr Murray's negligence and lack of care led to a person's death. If he had been in the room, had the right equipment, and called 911 straight away MJ could have still been here today. He didn't and now Michael Jackson is dead. Dr Conrad Murray needs to be held accountable for his actions, or rather lack of actions.

 

[callmerose]

I agree. Was Michael perfect, no of course not, no one is perfect and the whole should he have been asking for propofol in the first place should be taking place in the investigation forum, not here. But here is the thing. Just because someone asks you for something does not mean you should be giving it to them. Conrad Murray is a doctor and should have known better. He could have easily have said no, but he didn't. The $150,000 a month told him otherwise. So he injected MJ with propofol. Didn't have the right equipment and didn't monitor his patient. He left the room and when he returned MJ wasn't breathing. He delayed in calling the emergency services. Everyone knows if you see a person not breathing call 911 straight away. There is no other way of interpreting this. Dr Murray's negligence and lack of care led to a person's death. If he had been in the room, had the right equipment, and called 911 straight away MJ could have still been here today. He didn't and now Michael Jackson is dead. Dr Conrad Murray needs to be held accountable for his actions, or rather lack of actions.

I agree with most of your post. If Michael did ask for propofol, Murray shouldn't have given it to him. And Murray was negligent and incompetent in his actions once something went wrong, in my opinion. BUT the only person who said that Michael asked for the propofol the day he died is Murray. And I don't trust him. Maybe Michael didn't ask for it. We just don't know.

 

[FedoraHatGirl2058]

you know what, i dont care, the ones who wanna go with him, is their desicion. Murray is a shameless man, thats a fact, if Michael was an addicted to propofol, its obvious Michael was not ok, this just shows Murray was not a good person, has no principles, even if Michael would have said to him "put me the propofol", he should have adviced the family about this, even if he acceded to gave him the propofol (he could have advice the family secretly)... But in the end those who decide to go with him, is their decision... but Murray is just not a good person, and thats all, and i feel the people going with him are not that good either...

 

[FedoraHatGirl2058]

To the ones saying, Should Michael have asked for propofol in the first place, are you for real??? he couldnt live without it, is not like a capricious thing or something, he just couldnt live without it, if that does not show Michael had a real big problem with it, and that he should have been taken to rehab, then i dont know what that is...

That doctor and all the ones involved are in problem...

 

[Beachlover]

To the ones saying, Should Michael have asked for propofol in the first place, are you for real??? he couldnt live without it, is not like a capricious thing or something, he just couldnt live without it, if that does not show Michael had a real big problem with it, and that he should have been taken to rehab, then i dont know what that is...

That doctor and all the ones involved are in problem...

Understand one thing. A doctor is not allowed to discuss things he and his patient talk about. There are laws preventing any health practitioner from going to the family, even a wife if he had one. It is also against the law to 'put' someone in rehab against their will.

So, no matter what happened, the doctor could not go to the family with that information as it is against the law.

Not excusing what he did by the way, just letting you know why that could not have happened.

 

[Autumn II]

Understand one thing. A doctor is not allowed to discuss things he and his patient talk about. There are laws preventing any health practitioner from going to the family, even a wife if he had one. It is also against the law to 'put' someone in rehab against their will.

So, no matter what happened, the doctor could not go to the family with that information as it is against the law.

Not excusing what he did by the way, just letting you know why that could not have happened.

Parts of this are factually inaccurate. A person can be confined to rehab or a hospital if it's determined that the person is a danger to him/herself, or to anyone else. It's a matter of LAW, that this can happen.

It is not "illegal" for a doctor to speak about a patient, just unethical in the medical profession. Klein sure didn't have any ethics about that, and talked about Michael's private medical issues on CNN.

If Murray thought that Michael was doing something that risked his LIFE, he had a moral obligation to see that he got help for it. Instead, it seems that Murray was enabling a very risky behavior. If, indeed, Michael ASKED for the Propofol, at all? He is not here to tell us if he did or did not, or if something entirely different happened. .. . .

 

[bgz]

Parts of this are factually inaccurate. A person can be confined to rehab or a hospital if it's determined that the person is a danger to him/herself, or to anyone else. It's a matter of LAW, that this can happen.

It is not "illegal" for a doctor to speak about a patient, just unethical in the medical profession. Klein sure didn't have any ethics about that, and talked about Michael's private medical issues on CNN.

If Murray thought that Michael was doing something that risked his LIFE, he had a moral obligation to see that he got help for it. Instead, it seems that Murray was enabling a very risky behavior. If, indeed, Michael ASKED for the Propofol, at all? He is not here to tell us if he did or did not, or if something entirely different happened. .. . .

Idk, the HIPPA rules are very long and involved, and as a medical provider the rules are virtually force fed to us because of the consequences. There are so many exceptions and inclusions it's dizzying. But ultimately from everything I am required to read and acknowledge yearly, it pretty much states in no uncertain terms that a caregiver cannot give information to the "general public" without specific approval by the person involved. There are alot entities that can receive the info. But for Dr. X to go on public television/news entity and disclose treatments, history, etc., is by all accounts not allowable unless released in legal transcripts by the appropriate authorities r/t to an investigation. That obviously excludes anything r/t law gathering disclosures, investigation purposes, etc. So I can't agree that it is permissable for Klein or another doctor to go on TMZ, Larry King, etc., and disclose info/details not already released by officials to the general public. So hard to put into words, but for anyone who has the wherewithall to digest the volumes, here's the official link and the information given to all medical personnel that we must read and mandatorily be signed off on: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/privacysummary.pdf

As for Murray and what he should have done, no need for me to restate what has been discussed already, the guilt on so many levels seems virtually undeniable. As for whether CM had both a moral and ethical obligation to deny the treatment Michael supposedly requested, and to provide such services, is without a doubt reprehensible no matter how desperate CM was/is for income.

 

[Beachlover]

Parts of this are factually inaccurate. A person can be confined to rehab or a hospital if it's determined that the person is a danger to him/herself, or to anyone else. It's a matter of LAW, that this can happen.

It is not "illegal" for a doctor to speak about a patient, just unethical in the medical profession. Klein sure didn't have any ethics about that, and talked about Michael's private medical issues on CNN.

If Murray thought that Michael was doing something that risked his LIFE, he had a moral obligation to see that he got help for it. Instead, it seems that Murray was enabling a very risky behavior. If, indeed, Michael ASKED for the Propofol, at all? He is not here to tell us if he did or did not, or if something entirely different happened. .. . .

Ok. There are HIPA laws now and it is illegal for a doctor, nurse or health care worker to go to any family member or friend who the patient specifically does not give permission to go to. It is more than just unethical and we are bound by this rule. What Klein did or didn't do I have no idea, but I know for a fact that you can NOT go even to the spouse any more with issues like this. The patient can then go after the health care provider as invasion of privacy and will definitely win. So, I guess Klein figures his patient can no longer do anything to him.

I do understand that if someone is a danger to himself or herself, yes, you can intervene, but it must be through a psychiatrist who has to commit. You can't just make this determination on your own even as a doctor unless faced with a suicide attempt. Thinking someone 'might' hurt themselves with drugs is not enough unless you have real proof because this person can turn around and get you in a lot of trouble. Not in that case. I am afraid its not that simple. Now, if you knew for a fact that the person was going to hurt someone else for sure, you have an obligation to do something. Its a slippery slope.

Now, as far as what Murray could have or could not have done, I can only tell you that you are right IF the patient tried to kill himself. It is REALLY hard to commit a drug addict. Most times they come in as an overdose and thats how they get treated. Even at that, you can't force them into rehab.

The 'rules' to medical care providers has become VERY patient oriented. There is a very fine line even in telling a spouse about medical issues. Once a child reaches a certain age, we don't even have to tell the parents a thing when their child is in the hospital unless that child says it is OK.

I know it sounds crazy but look up the HIPA laws. We can't even say if someone is IN the hospital if they choose to keep that private.

 

[Autumn II]

Ok. There are HIPA laws now and it is illegal for a doctor, nurse or health care worker to go to any family member or friend who the patient specifically does not give permission to go to. It is more than just unethical and we are bound by this rule. What Klein did or didn't do I have no idea, but I know for a fact that you can NOT go even to the spouse any more with issues like this. The patient can then go after the health care provider as invasion of privacy and will definitely win. So, I guess Klein figures his patient can no longer do anything to him.

I do understand that if someone is a danger to himself or herself, yes, you can intervene, but it must be through a psychiatrist who has to commit. You can't just make this determination on your own even as a doctor unless faced with a suicide attempt. Thinking someone 'might' hurt themselves with drugs is not enough unless you have real proof because this person can turn around and get you in a lot of trouble. Not in that case. I am afraid its not that simple. Now, if you knew for a fact that the person was going to hurt someone else for sure, you have an obligation to do something. Its a slippery slope.

Now, as far as what Murray could have or could not have done, I can only tell you that you are right IF the patient tried to kill himself. It is REALLY hard to commit a drug addict. Most times they come in as an overdose and thats how they get treated. Even at that, you can't force them into rehab.

The 'rules' to medical care providers has become VERY patient oriented. There is a very fine line even in telling a spouse about medical issues. Once a child reaches a certain age, we don't even have to tell the parents a thing when their child is in the hospital unless that child says it is OK.

I know it sounds crazy but look up the HIPA laws. We can't even say if someone is IN the hospital if they choose to keep that private.

What Klein DID was go on Larry King Live and reveal very personal medical information about Michael.

I'm very aware of the HIPA laws. In part that's because I was at Virginia Tech during the shootings and the aftermath and the HIPA laws have been amply discussed here in terms of Cho, the shooter.

I'm going to make this very simple. If Murray was aware that Michael was in severe trouble, i.e. "requiring" a GENERAL ANESTHETIC in a home setting, there are various remedies, morally, ethically, and legally that Murray SHOULD have done. He didn't. (If a doctor has reason to think a patient is a danger to himself or others, that doctor can pick up the phone and call a psychiatrist, a magistrate, or the police, and save a life. Happens all the time.) The rest is just so much verbage. The patient DIED. The situation was SO extraordinary that I can't see how anyone could possibly think that Murray behaved in anything remotely approaching a competent manner.

 

[bgz]

To re-inforce the absolute depths that HIPPA has gone to, I work in an enclosed and locked critical care area. If a doctor is reading a chart and leaves it open on a counter or desk and then goes into a patient's room, the hospital can and will be fined $5,000 for the infraction irregardless if there are any visitors in the unit, and it is observed by any regulartory personnel making random or scheduled visits. HIPPA rules have become almost unimaginable in their broad scope of infractions.

 

[Autumn II]

To re-inforce the absolute depths that HIPPA has gone to, I work in an enclosed and locked critical care area. If a doctor is reading a chart and leaves it open on a counter or desk and then goes into a patient's room, the hospital can and will be fined $5,000 for the infraction irregardless if there are any visitors in the unit, and it is observed by any regulartory personnel making random or scheduled visits. HIPPA rules have become almost unimaginable in their broad scope of infractions.

In part, that law may have led to the shootings at Virginia Tech. .. so yes, it's very constraining.

My POINT is that if a physician deems a patient a danger to himself or others, there ARE remedies under the law and the person does not have to die.

 

[callmerose]

What Klein DID was go on Larry King Live and reveal very personal medical information about Michael.

I'm very aware of the HIPA laws. In part that's because I was at Virginia Tech during the shootings and the aftermath and the HIPA laws have been amply discussed here in terms of Cho, the shooter.

I'm going to make this very simple. If Murray was aware that Michael was in severe trouble, i.e. "requiring" a GENERAL ANESTHETIC in a home setting, there are various remedies, morally, ethically, and legally that Murray SHOULD have done. He didn't. (If a doctor has reason to think a patient is a danger to himself or others, that doctor can pick up the phone and call a psychiatrist, a magistrate, or the police, and save a life. Happens all the time.) The rest is just so much verbage. The patient DIED. The situation was SO extraordinary that I can't see how anyone could possibly think that Murray behaved in anything remotely approaching a competent manner.

Murray has no excuse by any standard for what he did to Michael.

 

[Ramona122003]

In part, that law may have led to the shootings at Virginia Tech. .. so yes, it's very constraining.

My POINT is that if a physician deems a patient a danger to himself or others, there ARE remedies under the law and the person does not have to die.

Vic,


Although I agree with you that Murray has no excuse, he did not have the 'power' to force Michael to a hospital or even rehab.

If that was that easy to force someone into rehab, why would families bother to stage interventions? Unless you have them arrested on drug charges or something related to their drug use and the courts force them into rehab, there is not much you can do.

Even if Michael was using a hospital drug to sleep, Murray could not force him to go to rehab or the hospital because he was not taking it himself. He wanted a doctor to inject him and watch him while he slept. So by that definition, he was not really being a danger to himself. If Michael was taking this drug by himself, Murray may of had the right to call a psychiatrist to evaluate Michael and make a determination if he was a danger.

What Murray could of and should of done was refused to give Michael the drug in question. He ether than should of quit if Michael would not listen or offer to find a better solution like any good doctor would. So, everything is render moot since Murray just gave what he patient wanted, going by his own words. That is not a doctor, that is a drug dealer at best.

 

[lovelymj]

Quit? He though he had won the lottery!!

 

[Autumn II]

Vic,


Although I agree with you that Murray has no excuse, he did not have the 'power' to force Michael to a hospital or even rehab.

If that was that easy to force someone into rehab, why would families bother to stage interventions? Unless you have them arrested on drug charges or something related to their drug use and the courts force them into rehab, there is not much you can do.

Even if Michael was using a hospital drug to sleep, Murray could not force him to go to rehab or the hospital because he was not taking it himself. He wanted a doctor to inject him and watch him while he slept. So by that definition, he was not really being a danger to himself. If Michael was taking this drug by himself, Murray may of had the right to call a psychiatrist to evaluate Michael and make a determination if he was a danger.

What Murray could of and should of done was refused to give Michael the drug in question. He ether than should of quit if Michael would not listen or offer to find a better solution like any good doctor would. So, everything is render moot since Murray just gave what he patient wanted, going by his own words. That is not a doctor, that is a drug dealer at best.

That is simply, factually, inaccurate. I've KNOWN people who's families and/or doctors intervened, successfully. It can and does happen. That is not the point, anyway. The POINT is that regardless of what Michael wanted/asked for (and DID he? He's not here to tell us. . . ), what Murray did was SO outrageous, and SO unethical, that he should never practice medicine again. . . at the very least. He gave a patient a dangerous drug outside of a hospital setting. He didn't have the proper rescue equipment. He seemed not to know basic CPR. He didn't call 911 in a timely way. And on, and on. Given what we know of his actions, he didn't seem to have even the most basic competency as a doctor.

IF Michael asked for Propofol, Murray should have not even considered it. IF Michael was that sleep-deprived, he should have at least been taken to a hospital. Something extremely strange, if almost unheard of, was going on. Murray was charged with the care of his patient. He utterly failed.

We simply do not know WHAT actually went on in that house, on that night. . . .

 

[Justus]

I am not going to play the blame game here, or anywhere. It's too negative, and too tiring to even read. Reading all of this stuff is like an energy vampire, for me. But there's some things I am going to say, which are FACT. Some of them you guys already know, some of them, you may not have known, or at least considered.

FACT: Michael was suffering horribly (let me TELL YOU) from insomnia. He was absolutely desperate for anything to help him sleep.
FACT: Michael had SLE (aka lupus - and yes the discoid lupus developed into SLE), and it was flaring up again (hence the insomnia and various other issues).
FACT: lupus patients should NEVER be given Propofol due to its risk factor with the combo of meds commonly taken in lupus patients.
FACT: Murray knew Michael had lupus.
FACT: A large number of the medications found in Michael's home were meds typically prescribed to lupus patients for various symptoms.
FACT: lupus patients often die of cardiac arrest at around the age of 40-50 years.
FACT: The window of time to save someone with cardiac arrest is only a mere 6 minutes. Initial cardiac arrest had taken place in Michael Jackson hours before being taken to the hospital.
FACT: lupus is an autoimmune disorder, often mimicking/mistaken for cancer and/or HIV/AIDS in its symptoms/treatments, and therefore the body attacks itself. lupus is known to have other conditions "tag along" for the ride (i.e. vitiligo and TONS more are commonly seen with it).
FACT: Michael Jackson, a known lupus patient, died of cardiac arrest at the age of 50. The doctor reported that he administered Propofol to his patient in a home setting, to help him sleep.

These are FACTS. The SPECULATION is, whether or not Murray is a competant doctor, or if he just panicked, or what. ANYONE would panic (and everyone DID panic) at the sudden, unexpected death of the world's most famous person. Also the major issue in question here in this thread is the use of propofol. We must remember Michael was an extremely influential man. If he wanted Propofol in order to sleep bad enough, he could have done something to make that happen, despite the drug always being given in the hospital. Whether or not Michael knew what the interaction between propofol and lupus meds could cause, well...????? And the reasons for it being given at home vs. hospital...????? Only Dr. Murray can answer those questions.

Was it a BIG mistake to administer this drug to a lupus patient? YES. Why there isn't at least some kind of malpractice suit, I am not sure...there may have been agreements or leeways made between doctors, hospitals, etc., and Michael so that he COULD get certain things administered at home (because Michael Jackson having to be in a hospital is too big of a mess for both him and the hospitals). It is possible he WAS NOT taking those various other meds, even tho they were at the home. Therefore, there is the POSSIBILITY that propofol was administered to him when his body was free of other meds, so as not to have a risky interaction; therefore, it is possible that cardiac arrest occured SEPERATE FROM Propofol and as a natural result of LUPUS and not Propofol. These are things only to think about, as other possiblities. I have already given you the facts. Do with this information what you will.

 

[MichaelsBlackPanther79]

I am not going to play the blame game here, or anywhere. It's too negative, and too tiring to even read. Reading all of this stuff is like an energy vampire, for me. But there's some things I am going to say, which are FACT. Some of them you guys already know, some of them, you may not have known, or at least considered.

FACT: Michael was suffering horribly (let me TELL YOU) from insomnia. He was absolutely desperate for anything to help him sleep.
FACT: Michael had SLE (aka lupus - and yes the discoid lupus developed into SLE), and it was flaring up again (hence the insomnia and various other issues).
FACT: lupus patients should NEVER be given Propofol due to its risk factor with the combo of meds commonly taken in lupus patients.
FACT: Murray knew Michael had lupus.
FACT: A large number of the medications found in Michael's home were meds typically prescribed to lupus patients for various symptoms.
FACT: lupus patients often die of cardiac arrest at around the age of 40-50 years.
FACT: The window of time to save someone with cardiac arrest is only a mere 6 minutes. Initial cardiac arrest had taken place in Michael Jackson hours before being taken to the hospital.
FACT: lupus is an autoimmune disorder, often mimicking/mistaken for cancer and/or HIV/AIDS in its symptoms/treatments, and therefore the body attacks itself. lupus is known to have other conditions "tag along" for the ride (i.e. vitiligo and TONS more are commonly seen with it).
FACT: Michael Jackson, a known lupus patient, died of cardiac arrest at the age of 50. The doctor reported that he administered Propofol to his patient in a home setting, to help him sleep.

These are FACTS. The SPECULATION is, whether or not Murray is a competant doctor, or if he just panicked, or what. ANYONE would panic (and everyone DID panic) at the sudden, unexpected death of the world's most famous person. Also the major issue in question here in this thread is the use of propofol. We must remember Michael was an extremely influential man. If he wanted Propofol in order to sleep bad enough, he could have done something to make that happen, despite the drug always being given in the hospital. Whether or not Michael knew what the interaction between propofol and lupus meds could cause, well...????? And the reasons for it being given at home vs. hospital...????? Only Dr. Murray can answer those questions.

Was it a BIG mistake to administer this drug to a lupus patient? YES. Why there isn't at least some kind of malpractice suit, I am not sure...there may have been agreements or leeways made between doctors, hospitals, etc., and Michael so that he COULD get certain things administered at home (because Michael Jackson having to be in a hospital is too big of a mess for both him and the hospitals). It is possible he WAS NOT taking those various other meds, even tho they were at the home. Therefore, there is the POSSIBILITY that propofol was administered to him when his body was free of other meds, so as not to have a risky interaction; therefore, it is possible that cardiac arrest occured SEPERATE FROM Propofol and as a natural result of LUPUS and not Propofol. These are things only to think about, as other possiblities. I have already given you the facts. Do with this information what you will.

Didn't Michael deny that he had lupus?

 

[Ramona122003]

I am not going to play the blame game here, or anywhere. It's too negative, and too tiring to even read. Reading all of this stuff is like an energy vampire, for me. But there's some things I am going to say, which are FACT. Some of them you guys already know, some of them, you may not have known, or at least considered.

FACT: Michael was suffering horribly (let me TELL YOU) from insomnia. He was absolutely desperate for anything to help him sleep.
FACT: Michael had SLE (aka lupus - and yes the discoid lupus developed into SLE), and it was flaring up again (hence the insomnia and various other issues).
FACT: lupus patients should NEVER be given Propofol due to its risk factor with the combo of meds commonly taken in lupus patients.
FACT: Murray knew Michael had lupus.
FACT: A large number of the medications found in Michael's home were meds typically prescribed to lupus patients for various symptoms.
FACT: lupus patients often die of cardiac arrest at around the age of 40-50 years.
FACT: The window of time to save someone with cardiac arrest is only a mere 6 minutes. Initial cardiac arrest had taken place in Michael Jackson hours before being taken to the hospital.
FACT: lupus is an autoimmune disorder, often mimicking/mistaken for cancer and/or HIV/AIDS in its symptoms/treatments, and therefore the body attacks itself. lupus is known to have other conditions "tag along" for the ride (i.e. vitiligo and TONS more are commonly seen with it).
FACT: Michael Jackson, a known lupus patient, died of cardiac arrest at the age of 50. The doctor reported that he administered Propofol to his patient in a home setting, to help him sleep.

These are FACTS. The SPECULATION is, whether or not Murray is a competant doctor, or if he just panicked, or what. ANYONE would panic (and everyone DID panic) at the sudden, unexpected death of the world's most famous person. Also the major issue in question here in this thread is the use of propofol. We must remember Michael was an extremely influential man. If he wanted Propofol in order to sleep bad enough, he could have done something to make that happen, despite the drug always being given in the hospital. Whether or not Michael knew what the interaction between propofol and lupus meds could cause, well...????? And the reasons for it being given at home vs. hospital...????? Only Dr. Murray can answer those questions.

Was it a BIG mistake to administer this drug to a lupus patient? YES. Why there isn't at least some kind of malpractice suit, I am not sure...there may have been agreements or leeways made between doctors, hospitals, etc., and Michael so that he COULD get certain things administered at home (because Michael Jackson having to be in a hospital is too big of a mess for both him and the hospitals). It is possible he WAS NOT taking those various other meds, even tho they were at the home. Therefore, there is the POSSIBILITY that propofol was administered to him when his body was free of other meds, so as not to have a risky interaction; therefore, it is possible that cardiac arrest occured SEPERATE FROM Propofol and as a natural result of LUPUS and not Propofol. These are things only to think about, as other possiblities. I have already given you the facts. Do with this information what you will.

Michael was not on lupus medication when he died. The tox only showed the drugs that Murray gave him. If was taking anything, it would had shown up in the report. Even if Michael did not take any of his lupus medication in the weeks before he died it would still shown up in the tox because of hair samples. Also, his death has been trance to Propofol intoxication by the corona office itself. If Michael had lupus and it was a suspect in his death, they would had mention it in the report. Especially since it gives Murray probably cause.

I also doubt he was having lupus flares because his insurance would had reflected that. Although we do not have details, they said Michael was healthy and only had a slight case of hay fever. This is also backed up by the leaked autopsy report. So him having lupus is a moot point.

Whether Michael could of gotten Propofol for anyone other than Murray is also a moot point. Murray was the one who said yes, so he is the one who's ass is in the fire.

 

[Beachlover]

What Klein DID was go on Larry King Live and reveal very personal medical information about Michael.

I'm very aware of the HIPA laws. In part that's because I was at Virginia Tech during the shootings and the aftermath and the HIPA laws have been amply discussed here in terms of Cho, the shooter.

I'm going to make this very simple. If Murray was aware that Michael was in severe trouble, i.e. "requiring" a GENERAL ANESTHETIC in a home setting, there are various remedies, morally, ethically, and legally that Murray SHOULD have done. He didn't. (If a doctor has reason to think a patient is a danger to himself or others, that doctor can pick up the phone and call a psychiatrist, a magistrate, or the police, and save a life. Happens all the time.) The rest is just so much verbage. The patient DIED. The situation was SO extraordinary that I can't see how anyone could possibly think that Murray behaved in anything remotely approaching a competent manner.

The poster before me stated that Murray should have called the family or that Murray should have sent him to drug rehab and I stated the reasons that could not happen.

The reason Michael died was an overdose of Propofol. That is not a narcotic. We all know this. It was not a heart attack due to Lupus. It was Propofol intoxication.

You seem to think I am defending that and I am not. I AM defending the fact that Murray could not tell the family. Yes, he could have called a psychiatrist but since Michael was not 'addicted' to narcotics it would have done nothing. I think thats a moot point.

And why would a doctor call the police on Michael Jackson for taking Propofol at home?

 

[Ramona122003]

The poster before me stated that Murray should have called the family or that Murray should have sent him to drug rehab and I stated the reasons that could not happen.

The reason Michael died was an overdose of Propofol. That is not a narcotic. We all know this. It was not a heart attack due to Lupus. It was Propofol intoxication.

You seem to think I am defending that and I am not. I AM defending the fact that Murray could not tell the family. Yes, he could have called a psychiatrist but since Michael was not 'addicted' to narcotics it would have done nothing. I think thats a moot point.

And why would a doctor call the police on Michael Jackson for taking Propofol at home?

That was the point I was also trying to make.

Some people seems to forget that Michael was not taking Propofol on his on. He wanted a doctor to inject him and watch him through the night. He was not independently injecting this stuff into himself every night.

What was Murray going to tell the cops if he called? Michael Jackson asked me to give him Propofol. Since it is not an illegal drug and if Michael does not have it in his system, the only thing the cops could do is advise Michael why taking this at home even with a doctor present is not a good idea. However, they cannot force someone rehab into if they show no evident of being an addict or posing a danger to themselves or someone.

 

[Autumn II]

I am not going to play the blame game here, or anywhere. It's too negative, and too tiring to even read. Reading all of this stuff is like an energy vampire, for me. But there's some things I am going to say, which are FACT. Some of them you guys already know, some of them, you may not have known, or at least considered.

FACT: Michael was suffering horribly (let me TELL YOU) from insomnia. He was absolutely desperate for anything to help him sleep.
FACT: Michael had SLE (aka lupus - and yes the discoid lupus developed into SLE), and it was flaring up again (hence the insomnia and various other issues).
FACT: lupus patients should NEVER be given Propofol due to its risk factor with the combo of meds commonly taken in lupus patients.
FACT: Murray knew Michael had lupus.
FACT: A large number of the medications found in Michael's home were meds typically prescribed to lupus patients for various symptoms.
FACT: lupus patients often die of cardiac arrest at around the age of 40-50 years.
FACT: The window of time to save someone with cardiac arrest is only a mere 6 minutes. Initial cardiac arrest had taken place in Michael Jackson hours before being taken to the hospital.
FACT: lupus is an autoimmune disorder, often mimicking/mistaken for cancer and/or HIV/AIDS in its symptoms/treatments, and therefore the body attacks itself. lupus is known to have other conditions "tag along" for the ride (i.e. vitiligo and TONS more are commonly seen with it).
FACT: Michael Jackson, a known lupus patient, died of cardiac arrest at the age of 50. The doctor reported that he administered Propofol to his patient in a home setting, to help him sleep.

These are FACTS. The SPECULATION is, whether or not Murray is a competant doctor, or if he just panicked, or what.

Please cite a (valid) source or sources for this information. There have long been rumors that Michael had lupus (as well as many other health rumors), but he never confirmed in any sort of public statement, that I'm aware of.

Are you saying:

That the insurance exam was fraudulent? If Michael had lupus, even if it was in remission, he'd be required to reveal that to the examiner for the insurance. If he failed to reveal it, that would have invalidated the policy.

That information released in autopsy reports is fraudulent? Hair analysis would have shown what drugs Michael "had been" taking, even if he wasn't taking any "lupus medication" when he died.

That AEG execs, the family, and those close to Michael knew he had lupus? IF Michael had lupus and Murray knew, surely others did as well?

That even though Michael "had lupus" and his doctor knew it, this was not a concern regarding the TII shows? Even though Michael had (as you say) a dangerous auto-immune disease, his doctor, the AEG execs, those working on the TII show, all thought it would be ok for him to be exposed to the stress of performing fifty concerts?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is not much "speculation" that Murray was not a competent doctor. He (reportedly) gave a general anesthetic in a home-setting without the proper rescue equipment. He did not call 911 in a timely way. He seemed to be clueless about how to effectively administer CPR. And on, and on.

At this point, it is looking like there may never be a trial. I hope the Jackson family launches a wrongful death civil suit so these "facts" (or "non-facts") can finally be known.

 

[Autumn II]

That was the point I was also trying to make.

Some people seems to forget that Michael was not taking Propofol on his on. He wanted a doctor to inject him and watch him through the night. He was not independently injecting this stuff into himself every night.

What was Murray going to tell the cops if he called? Michael Jackson asked me to give him Propofol. Since it is not an illegal drug and if Michael does not have it in his system, the only thing the cops could do is advise Michael why taking this at home even with a doctor present is not a good idea. However, they cannot force someone rehab into if they show no evident of being an addict or posing a danger to themselves or someone.

I'm not sure what is really being asserted here? Taking propofol in a home-setting is dangerous behavior, period. What matters is if the person is a danger to himself or others, not whether one is or is not physically addicted to this or that substance at a given time. "Dangerous" behavior does not only include taking drugs, but many other behaviors as well. Taking propofol was clearly dangerous. Michael lived in a houseful of people, and surely there must have been some awareness of what he was doing, by more than just Murray? Or, was Michael so isolated from family and friends they had no idea what he was doing and how risky to his survival it was? IF he was that isolated... why?

What I've been saying is that someone, somehow, should have found SOME way to save the life of this very precious human-being. . .a person who was the world's greatest entertainer, loved by millions, a father to three wonderful children; he was soneone who was a precious son, a brother, an uncle, and a friend. Michael had a doctor, a family, friends, fans, employees (body-guards, a chef, people who cleaned his house, etc.), "employers" (AEG execs), colleagues working on TII, and many others around him. And not ONE person had a hint he was engaging in life-threatening behavior? It's a total tragedy. . .

 

[daisydaisy]

What I've been saying is that someone, somehow, should have found SOME way to save the life of this very precious human-being. . .a person who was the world's greatest entertainer, loved by millions, a father to three wonderful children; he was soneone who was a precious son, a brother, an uncle, and a friend. Michael had a doctor, a family, friends, fans, employees (body-guards, a chef, people who cleaned his house, etc.), "employers" (AEG execs), colleagues working on TII, and many others around him. And not ONE person had a hint he was engaging in life-threatening behavior? It's a total tragedy. . .

Exactly, exactly how I feel too. It's so frustrating.

I've actually been away for nearly four weeks, and I was hoping some progress would have been made in the case, not Murray going back to work :-( Did I miss something or is this all that has happened?

 

[mjjfan4ever]

one can abide by and adhere to the hippocratic oath by just even saying.... "sorry I am uncomfortable giving you and treating you with profofol, please find someone else to be your physician".

if you can't call the police fine.

Surely, if Murray wasn't so blinded by the almighty $$$$$$$ he COULD HAVE QUIT.

Of course we live in a world of selfish greed and all Murray saw was $150,000.

 

[Ramona122003]

I'm not sure what is really being asserted here? Taking propofol in a home-setting is dangerous behavior, period. What matters is if the person is a danger to himself or others, not whether one is or is not physically addicted to this or that substance at a given time. "Dangerous" behavior does not only include taking drugs, but many other behaviors as well. Taking propofol was clearly dangerous. Michael lived in a houseful of people, and surely there must have been some awareness of what he was doing, by more than just Murray? Or, was Michael so isolated from family and friends they had no idea what he was doing and how risky to his survival it was? IF he was that isolated... why?

What I've been saying is that someone, somehow, should have found SOME way to save the life of this very precious human-being. . .a person who was the world's greatest entertainer, loved by millions, a father to three wonderful children; he was soneone who was a precious son, a brother, an uncle, and a friend. Michael had a doctor, a family, friends, fans, employees (body-guards, a chef, people who cleaned his house, etc.), "employers" (AEG execs), colleagues working on TII, and many others around him. And not ONE person had a hint he was engaging in life-threatening behavior? It's a total tragedy. . .

Vic, you are missing my point.

Michael was not taking it himself, he wanted a doctor to give it to him and watch him. He was not a danger to himself because he was not taking it himself in his bedroom. If Murray never gave him the propofol, I doubt Michael would had given to himself. You may say that the would had looked for someone else and that maybe so, but that is a 'what if'. So, Murray calling anyone would had been moot. It had already been discuss why Murray could not tell Michael's family and employee of this behavior so I feel no need to repeat it. Also, since he wanted the approval of a medical professional, that shows that he was indeed considering his life to a degree.

Also, Michael took propofol during the History Tour, which has been semi-confirm. If this story is true, he took propofol for months and no one was the wiser: not his family, his employer, not even his fans. So saying that there should be signs, could be more wishful thinking.

You saw TII for yourself. If Michael did not die, could you honestly tell me he was on something dangerous. Even his most hardcore critics who would had loved to find Michael hammer, didn't see anything usual. You are playing with 20/20 hindsight and things are always obvious when the mess actually happens.

However, this is all moot because Michael is not here anymore. So all the could of, would of, should of are all non-points that has no conclusion.