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Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

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mjjfan4ever said:
one can abide by and adhere to the hippocratic oath by just even saying.... "sorry I am uncomfortable giving you and treating you with profofol, please find someone else to be your physician".

if you can't call the police fine.

Surely, if Murray wasn't so blinded by the almighty $$$$$$$ he COULD HAVE QUIT.

Of course we live in a world of selfish greed and all Murray saw was $150,000.
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This is exactly what I've been saying, and thank you.

Ramona122003 said:
Vic, you are missing my point.

Michael was not taking it himself, he wanted a doctor to give it to him and watch him. He was not a danger to himself because he was not taking it himself in his bedroom. If Murray never gave him the propofol, I doubt Michael would had given to himself. You may say that the would had looked for someone else and that maybe so, but that is a 'what if'. So, Murray calling anyone would had been moot. It had already been discuss why Murray could not tell Michael's family and employee of this behavior so I feel no need to repeat it. Also, since he wanted the approval of a medical professional, that shows that he was indeed considering his life to a degree.

You saw TII for yourself. If Michael did not die, could you honestly tell me he was on something dangerous. Even his most hardcore critics who would had loved to find Michael hammer, didn't see anything usual. You are playing with 20/20 hindsight and things are always obvious when the mess actually happens.
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I have not missed your point. I simply do not agree with it. It matters not at all whether or not the drug was self-administered (and of course Propofol can't be self-administered), or he got a doctor to do it. If not Murray, then someone else? But Murray WAS there and had a responsibility NOT to do what Michael (reportedly) asked him to. He could have stopped this risky behavior entirely. Would he have lost his job? Probably. Would Michael still be alive? I believe so. See quote by mjjfan4ever, above. THAT is the point.

I saw TII. What I saw was the world's greatest entertainer, in short clips of energy. His voice was beautiful, and his dancing was amazing. I also saw that his dancing had been modified to focus more on hand-motions and less on "footwork." (not inappropriate for a fifty-year old man?) I also saw someone who was so dangerously underweight, even for HIM, that he should have been in a hospital on I.V. nutrition. That is my opinion. Others may have other opinions, but I know what I saw.
 
Victoria83 said:
This is exactly what I've been saying, and thank you.



I have not missed your point. I simply do not agree with it. It matters not at all whether or not the drug was self-administered (and of course Propofol can't be self-administered), or he got a doctor to do it. If not Murray, then someone else? But Murray WAS there and had a responsibility NOT to do what Michael (reportedly) asked him to. He could have stopped this risky behavior entirely. Would he have lost his job? Probably. Would Michael still be alive? I believe so. See quote by mjjfan4ever, above. THAT is the point.

I saw TII. What I saw was the world's greatest entertainer, in short clips of energy. His voice was beautiful, and his dancing was amazing. I also saw that his dancing had been modified to focus more on hand-motions and less on "footwork." (not inappropriate for a fifty-year old man?) I also saw someone who was so dangerously underweight, even for HIM, that he should have been in a hospital on I.V. nutrition. That is my opinion. Others may have other opinions, but I know what I saw.
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You twisted my point again, but whatever.

I do not disagree with you about Murray not given him the drug, or at least used the proper equipment, I just think the way you wanted things to happen is not realistic. But, that is how I see the situation.

Also, the leaked autopsy report said he was not underweight and was in good health. I doubted he need an IV since his own personal chief who actually fed him said he ate. There is also the fact that he took Propofol on the History Tour and he was act his heaviest weight there. So, drugs most used most likely had nothing to do with his weight loss. I see no reason for this report to be fake since two other fake autopsy were killed on sight by the corona's office the day they came out.

However, until the official one comes out I suppose anyone who sees Michael as underweight will do so. Since I have seen people in my family and even on tv who looked underweight, but who are actually a good weight and healthy, I never saw Michael as dangerously underweight in TII. In fact, he was bigger than I though he would be since all I heard was how skinny he was. To me, Michael looked no skinner than JJ Evan from Good Times and he was a rile.

But, this is all moot in the end, so I will end it here. Until more facts come out, everyone has a belief that will not change at this point. So, we can agree to disagree.
 
I wish this investigation were moving along quicker. When there is no information or action it leaves the rest of us to do nothing but speculate, and that gets frustrating.

Victoria, I understand you are doing REAL digging into this, and for that I say a big THANK YOU. :bow: I hope you get to the bottom of things! It is really getting to me, this talk of all the drugs he was given that night. How could his body even cope with all those drugs? :( And what kind of nutjob doctor would just pump him full of drugs all night?

I never understood why Murray would give MJ propofol in the morning at 10:30 either. MJ normally started rehearsals with Travis, (there at the house,) around 2pm. Was he only gonna sleep a couple of hours? :unsure: Doesn't make sense to me, so I think Murray is lying about that time line too.
 
LauraLovesMJ said:
I wish this investigation were moving along quicker. When there is no information or action it leaves the rest of us to do nothing but speculate, and that gets frustrating.

Victoria, I understand you are doing REAL digging into this, and for that I say a big THANK YOU. :bow: I hope you get to the bottom of things! It is really getting to me, this talk of all the drugs he was given that night. How could his body even cope with all those drugs? :( And what kind of nutjob doctor would just pump him full of drugs all night?

I never understood why Murray would give MJ propofol in the morning at 10:30 either. MJ normally started rehearsals with Travis, (there at the house,) around 2pm. Was he only gonna sleep a couple of hours? :unsure: Doesn't make sense to me, so I think Murray is lying about that time line too.
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You are welcome.

I think it's entirely possible that the public has almost NO information about what really happened in that house, and who did what.
 
Re: Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option Update #27

Victoria83 said:
I echo Trish's sentiments here. Of COURSE race plays a part, just as it did when Michael was paraded around in handcuffs for a photo-op. Sure, the U.S. has a black president now, but that doesn't mean we are THERE yet in terms of racism. You "feel sure it will all fall into place when the investigation is complete?" On WHAT do you base that certainty?

It's one thing to have respect for basic human rights, and quite another to be outraged that there have been, to date, NO legal consequences for Murray. There is no disagreement that I've ever heard that he wasn't incredibly negligent and unethical in giving Michael a general anesthetic in a home setting, failing to perform the most basically competent CPR, making phone calls while Michael was dying, cleaning out probable incriminating evidence from his storage locker, vanishing from the hospital, hiding from police. . . and MORE. This man is a danger to any patient he comes into contact with and it's completely outrageous that NOTHING has happened, and that he continues to practice medicine.
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:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
Justus said:
I am not going to play the blame game here, or anywhere. It's too negative, and too tiring to even read. Reading all of this stuff is like an energy vampire, for me. But there's some things I am going to say, which are FACT. Some of them you guys already know, some of them, you may not have known, or at least considered.

FACT: Michael was suffering horribly (let me TELL YOU) from insomnia. He was absolutely desperate for anything to help him sleep.
FACT: Michael had SLE (aka lupus - and yes the discoid lupus developed into SLE), and it was flaring up again (hence the insomnia and various other issues).
FACT: lupus patients should NEVER be given Propofol due to its risk factor with the combo of meds commonly taken in lupus patients.
FACT: Murray knew Michael had lupus.
FACT: A large number of the medications found in Michael's home were meds typically prescribed to lupus patients for various symptoms.
FACT: lupus patients often die of cardiac arrest at around the age of 40-50 years.
FACT: The window of time to save someone with cardiac arrest is only a mere 6 minutes. Initial cardiac arrest had taken place in Michael Jackson hours before being taken to the hospital.
FACT: lupus is an autoimmune disorder, often mimicking/mistaken for cancer and/or HIV/AIDS in its symptoms/treatments, and therefore the body attacks itself. lupus is known to have other conditions "tag along" for the ride (i.e. vitiligo and TONS more are commonly seen with it).
FACT: Michael Jackson, a known lupus patient, died of cardiac arrest at the age of 50. The doctor reported that he administered Propofol to his patient in a home setting, to help him sleep.

These are FACTS. The SPECULATION is, whether or not Murray is a competant doctor, or if he just panicked, or what. ANYONE would panic (and everyone DID panic) at the sudden, unexpected death of the world's most famous person. Also the major issue in question here in this thread is the use of propofol. We must remember Michael was an extremely influential man. If he wanted Propofol in order to sleep bad enough, he could have done something to make that happen, despite the drug always being given in the hospital. Whether or not Michael knew what the interaction between propofol and lupus meds could cause, well...????? And the reasons for it being given at home vs. hospital...????? Only Dr. Murray can answer those questions.

Was it a BIG mistake to administer this drug to a lupus patient? YES. Why there isn't at least some kind of malpractice suit, I am not sure...there may have been agreements or leeways made between doctors, hospitals, etc., and Michael so that he COULD get certain things administered at home (because Michael Jackson having to be in a hospital is too big of a mess for both him and the hospitals). It is possible he WAS NOT taking those various other meds, even tho they were at the home. Therefore, there is the POSSIBILITY that propofol was administered to him when his body was free of other meds, so as not to have a risky interaction; therefore, it is possible that cardiac arrest occured SEPERATE FROM Propofol and as a natural result of LUPUS and not Propofol. These are things only to think about, as other possiblities. I have already given you the facts. Do with this information what you will.
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this is completely BS. are you that girl on YT trying to spread this lie about Lupus patients? complete BS. there is no death sentence at age 50 (or before) for Lupus patients. so stop spreading this vicious and cruel lie.

second, Michael's Lupus was in remission and I challenge you to prove otherwise. either you provide concrete proof of recurrence of his condition or shut up.
 
indranee said:
this is completely BS. are you that girl on YT trying to spread this lie about Lupus patients? complete BS. there is no death sentence at age 50 (or before) for Lupus patients. so stop spreading this vicious and cruel lie.

second, Michael's Lupus was in remission and I challenge you to prove otherwise. either you provide concrete proof of recurrence of his condition or shut up.
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Although it has long been rumored that Michael had lupus, he chose never to talk about this "officially." There were certain photos from the 80s that showed the characteristic "butterfly" rash on his face typical of discoid lupus. He gave generously to the Lupus Foundation, but did NOT talk about any of this in public. He never issued any statements that he had any form of lupus.

IF Michael had lupus, there are three possibilities. That the autopsy report, that part that was revealed, was a total fabrication, and the insurance physical "passing" was a total fabrication, or they were not. They could have been? We do not KNOW. We have not seen the entire autopsy report, nor have we seen the insurance physical findings.

Justus, if you have links/proof that Michael indeed had systemic lupus, please provide them. Among other things, this would be incredibly important to the investigations that some are doing. You said that "lupus can mimic AIDS," or something to that effect? They are both diseases that attack the immune system, but as both diseases develop they are very different. You may not have done your research. You can't just drop a post like that in here, without sources for your info. That causes chaos, to say nothing of scaring those here who may have lupus into thinking they might DIE at forty or fifty! Many medical advances have been made in recent years.

The other implication, and why it's so important to have sources for that info, is that if Michael really DID have systemic lupus, then surely others knew it, including Murray and AEG, and that would be incredibly important to "investigations."

Carry on and whatever,

Vic
 
Victoria, aside from Michael's diagnosis/prognosis I have a real problem with this lie being spread about Lupus being an automatic death sentence at age 40-50. I've seen this on the 'net and on YT and think it's an incredibly cruel and irresponsible lie. I cannot tell you how angry this makes me.
 
indranee said:
Victoria, aside from Michael's diagnosis/prognosis I have a real problem with this lie being spread about Lupus being an automatic death sentence at age 40-50. I've seen this on the 'net and on YT and think it's an incredibly cruel and irresponsible lie. I cannot tell you how angry this makes me.
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I totally understand your concern, and feel it is warranted. . . .
 
The most poignant moment in TII for me was the "cherry picker".

Kenny is asking Michael to take a test ride, and Michael is saying "start at the top of beat it".... then Kenny insists and Michael agreed to the test ride and we all remember what Michael said at that moment.....

" I TRUST IN YOU...."

And this to me is what breaks my heart, makes me mad, and wonder what some people are thinking when they lay any blame or say the responsibility lies with Michael for asking for Profofol.

I am in no doubt that because MURRAY was a physician MICHAEL had faith and TRUSTED in that the PHYSICIAN would do his JOB and NOT HARM him.

Sorry if I sound harsh right now as.... I am watching Rock n Roll Hall of Fame 25th Anniversary Concert .... Stevie is performing right now... just a few minutes ago Stevie and john Legend performed TWYMMF.... in the middle of the performance Stevie started crying and lost it for about 15 seconds.... he recovered.

It makes me so angry that the people that Michael trusted with his career betrayed him in life, and the PHYSICIAN that was there to care for his health CONTRIBUTED to the death of MICHAEL.
 
mjjfan4ever said:
The most poignant moment in TII for me was the "cherry picker".

Kenny is asking Michael to take a test ride, and Michael is saying "start at the top of beat it".... then Kenny insists and Michael agreed to the test ride and we all remember what Michael said at that moment.....

" I TRUST IN YOU...."

And this to me is what breaks my heart, makes me mad, and wonder what some people are thinking when they lay any blame or say the responsibility lies with Michael for asking for Profofol.

I am in no doubt that because MURRAY was a physician MICHAEL had faith and TRUSTED in that the PHYSICIAN would do his JOB and NOT HARM him.

Sorry if I sound harsh right now as.... I am watching Rock n Roll Hall of Fame 25th Anniversary Concert .... Stevie is performing right now... just a few minutes ago Stevie and john Legend performed TWYMMF.... in the middle of the performance Stevie started crying and lost it for about 15 seconds.... he recovered.

It makes me so angry that the people that Michael trusted with his career betrayed him in life, and the PHYSICIAN that was there to care for his health CONTRIBUTED to the death of MICHAEL.
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I agree with you, totally. Michael was SUCH a kind and gentle person, he assumed others were somehow LIKE him? He couldn't imagine differently? But, sadly, they were not like him. . . . It is not Michael's fault that he trusted too much. It really isn't. I'd rather people BE like him, than not. The world deserves people like him? I just loved him, SO much, that my heart is forever broken. We had him, and we LOST him. We ALL lost him. . . .
 
Victoria83 said:
I agree with you, totally. Michael was SUCH a kind and gentle person, he assumed others were somehow LIKE him? He couldn't imagine differently? But, sadly, they were not like him. . . . It is not Michael's fault that he trusted too much. It really isn't. I'd rather people BE like him, than not. The world deserves people like him? I just loved him, SO much, that my heart is forever broken. We had him, and we LOST him. We ALL lost him. . . .
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I couldn't have said it any better myself...*sigh.*
 
Exactly right that Michael trusted this doctor to take care of him. This doctor didn't do his job and didn't take care of Michael. He was careless and negligent. He is the professional that should know what he is doing. When we go to see a doctor we trust them that they know what they are doing. For me it doesn't matter what Michael may or may not have asked for. This doctor was responsible for what happened. He gave Michael the propofol, he left the room, he didn't call 911 right away and he didn't even do CPR right. Michael didn't cause his death, the doctor did by not doing his job properly in the first place.
 
Victoria83 said:
I agree with you, totally. Michael was SUCH a kind and gentle person, he assumed others were somehow LIKE him? He couldn't imagine differently? But, sadly, they were not like him. . . . It is not Michael's fault that he trusted too much. It really isn't. I'd rather people BE like him, than not. The world deserves people like him? I just loved him, SO much, that my heart is forever broken. We had him, and we LOST him. We ALL lost him. . . .
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:hug: I know what you mean.

Keep fighting the good fight! You are not alone. :hug:
 
I agree.

Furthermore... the standard of care for PATIENTS (you, me, Michael) should be the same. No matter what.

Physicians doesn't merely go through training and learning about medicine in how to treat patients but they also are trained and taught and learn about MEDICAL ETHICS.

An ethical physician which Murray isn't would have known better than to play russian roulette with Michael's life. He should have known better.

Don't get me started on the 911 and the CPR. :mat:

marebear said:
Exactly right that Michael trusted this doctor to take care of him. This doctor didn't do his job and didn't take care of Michael. He was careless and negligent. He is the professional that should know what he is doing. When we go to see a doctor we trust them that they know what they are doing. For me it doesn't matter what Michael may or may not have asked for. This doctor was responsible for what happened. He gave Michael the propofol, he left the room, he didn't call 911 right away and he didn't even do CPR right. Michael didn't cause his death, the doctor did by not doing his job properly in the first place.
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mjjfan4ever said:
:hug: I know what you mean.

Keep fighting the good fight! You are not alone. :hug:
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Thank you. I KNOW I'm not alone. I have a lot of people around me fighting the good fight, against all odds, and sadly, against some who call themselves fans. I will NEVER stop, until justice is done. Michael is gone, but his children remain, and I will fight for THEM, against ignorance, against an often hostile lack of knowledge, and despite abuse from those who "say" they are fans, but really only want a fantasy of who Michael really was. I will never stop. NEVER.

peace and justice,

Vic
 
Victoria83 said:
Thank you. I KNOW I'm not alone. I have a lot of people around me fighting the good fight, against all odds, and sadly, against some who call themselves fans. I will NEVER stop, until justice is done. Michael is gone, but his children remain, and I will fight for THEM, against ignorance, against an often hostile lack of knowledge, and despite abuse from those who "say" they are fans, but really only want a fantasy of who Michael really was. I will never stop. NEVER.

peace and justice,

Vic
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Aww, that gives me strength.
 
mjjfan4ever said:
:hug: I know what you mean.

Keep fighting the good fight! You are not alone. :hug:
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group hug!! :hug: :wub:

I feel as if I am forever broken. every day that I feel that I can listen to something of Mike's w/o crying portends another day that I can't. the grief has never left me. I know it's been only five months, but I doubt I'll ever recover.

some broken things can never be fixed. and my heart is one of them.
 
MJ is gone, but we're still here. What strength we have left we must use it to fight for justice! Fight for his children, his family and legacy! We must not give up! We must not sit silently and allow Michael's legacy tarnish b/c of ignorance, hatred, and greed. We can make a difference!!!:yes:
 
CherubimII said:
Conrad Murray is a player, a liar, and a murderer.
I BELIEVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING he has said about what happened just prior to the death of Michael Jackson,
and really neighter should you.
Please Click on the video below:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5263216n&tag=related;photovideo
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I couldn't get the vid to work, but I agree with you 100% - I believe absolutely nothing he has to say - he did not tell people what he had given him, which he knew caused the cardiac arrest, from the very beginning. They might have treated him differently if they had known he had just had propofol.
 
mjjfan4ever said:
The most poignant moment in TII for me was the "cherry picker".

Kenny is asking Michael to take a test ride, and Michael is saying "start at the top of beat it".... then Kenny insists and Michael agreed to the test ride and we all remember what Michael said at that moment.....

" I TRUST IN YOU...."

And this to me is what breaks my heart, makes me mad, and wonder what some people are thinking when they lay any blame or say the responsibility lies with Michael for asking for Profofol.

I am in no doubt that because MURRAY was a physician MICHAEL had faith and TRUSTED in that the PHYSICIAN would do his JOB and NOT HARM him.

Sorry if I sound harsh right now as.... I am watching Rock n Roll Hall of Fame 25th Anniversary Concert .... Stevie is performing right now... just a few minutes ago Stevie and john Legend performed TWYMMF.... in the middle of the performance Stevie started crying and lost it for about 15 seconds.... he recovered.

It makes me so angry that the people that Michael trusted with his career betrayed him in life, and the PHYSICIAN that was there to care for his health CONTRIBUTED to the death of MICHAEL.
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That's heartbreaking :(. Poor Michael. He thought he was in safe hands of a professional doctor. He couldn't imagine that Murray would leave him in the room alone. Who knows how many times he did it before. Michael was in danger every night. There were bodyguards next to Michael everywhere. I wish he had at least one of them to monitor the doctor. Unfortunately he trusted Murray too much.
 
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Is there anyone from USA who is calling the hopital and complain about it? Does everybody here agree that he should not be working as a doctor until he is cleared from the investigations and the homicide case. And does everyone agree that as long he is the one resposible for this homicide, accidental or not, he should be stripped off his medical pratice for his proven imcompetency.
 
RainbowAngel said:
Is there anyone from USA who is calling the hopital and complain about it? Does everybody here agree that he should not be working as a doctor until he is cleared from the investigations and the homicide case. And does everyone agree that as long he is the one resposible for this homicide, accidental or not, he should be stripped off his medical pratice for his proven imcompetency.
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There is an ongoing petition, here:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82462

The goal is to prevent him from practicing medicine.
 
has anyone directly contacted the board and asked them what the postion is for adoctor whos under investigation for homicide inregards to being suspended. u know a general question.
 
indranee said:
group hug!! :hug: :wub:

I feel as if I am forever broken. every day that I feel that I can listen to something of Mike's w/o crying portends another day that I can't. the grief has never left me. I know it's been only five months, but I doubt I'll ever recover.

some broken things can never be fixed. and my heart is one of them.
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:hug: i know what you mean:cry:
 
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