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Reuters: Michael Jackson Fans Says Film Covers Up Grim Truth

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I'm sure that I will have a minority opinion here, but that's okay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

It seems to me based on the article, all that this group is saying is that MJ was not well and that the forward momentum of the concert series and all that was at stake may have been the motivation to ignore the warning signs.

Believe it or not, this happens under 'group think'. It's easy when you believe in something or someone so strongly, that viewing other angles is simply not an option. Sometime people hope for the best -- that somehow, everything will work out. Lots of money on the line is powerfully persuasive.

To me, the man looked ill. What I believe is that Murray was giving that man this mess for a period of time. What's worse is this didn't have to be. Somehow, I would have preferred a broke, sued up to the waazoo MJ who was healthy, than have his children grow up without their father.

But that's just my opinion.
 
mello1 said:
I'm sure that I will have a minority opinion here, but that's okay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

It seems to me based on the article, all that this group is saying is that MJ was not well and that the forward momentum of the concert series and all that was at stake may have been the motivation to ignore the warning signs.

Believe it or not, this happens under 'group think'. It's easy when you believe in something or someone so strongly, that viewing other angles is simply not an option. Sometime people hope for the best -- that somehow, everything will work out. Lots of money on the line is powerfully persuasive.

To me, the man looked ill. What I believe is that Murray was giving that man this mess for a period of time. What's worse is this didn't have to be. Somehow, I would have preferred a broke, sued up to the waazoo MJ who was healthy, than have his children grow up without their father.

But that's just my opinion.
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well, that's easier to believe..and i guess those people would rationalize...no one likes to admit they love money...but everbody worries about the economy...and money is an aphrodisiac to more people than people admit...

and..somehow..i don't know if a sued up the wazoo, broke MJ wouldn't probably be ill too..as those people would like to think of themselves more than worrying if MJ would be destroyed..and their kids would be without their father..
somehow i feel like it's a catch 22.

welcome to the club of minority opinions.
 
I believe the follower fans in that something was afoot. they don't have anything to gain from this. they're operating solely out of love and loyalty. I am not sure about Karen Faye etc. but I believe the follower fans are reporting the truth of what THEY saw day in and day out.

I will be going to the movie several times and I will keep an open mind and watch Michael closely. if there IS a truth, in time and with persistence, it WILL come out.
 
Gottobethere said:
If you read their testimony it will explain a lot about the way things happened. It is a very sad read but i am glad i read them. I understand your question and i don't really understand what they hope to achieve but i am glad i got the chance to read what was really going on which i think is kinda there aim just to let people know their story but i suppose sadly the bottom line is that Michael is his own man and at 51 he makes his own decisions.
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TINI wants to achieve "awareness" and tell what they know. As simple as that.
 
It's unfortunate that we're all divided like this. I don't disagree with the follower fans, I wasn't there so I don't know what they saw and there is no denying that Michael was thin. What I don't understand is why these follower fans are placing the blame on AEG. It's not like AEG conspired to hide his food. If Michael doesn't want to eat, then he's not going to eat. What were they going to do? Shove food down his throat? Michael was a grown man. People are only telling us what they saw. No one knows the full story. Maybe Michael was trying to put on weight. Maybe AEG was considering cancelling some shows so that Michael could rest and build some strength. Maybe Kenny and crew were worried about Michael and were trying to help. Maybe some people were planing some type of intervention. We just don't know. I just want to know the truth, whatever the truth may be. There are two sides to every story, and yes, I do believe Michael was thin, but I don't believe that had anything to do with AEG.
 
I'd just like to say that so far and for the most part, this discussion is pretty respectful. Good job, people, with your divergent opinions.

Carry on,

Vic
 
I have read every post in this thread. Some people seem to NOT want to even think that anyone could have done anything to prevent Michael dying.
Others don't want to think of anything else-- other than Michael was healthy, even though they can SEE how thin he was.

Michael's thinness was what started to "alarm" the follower fans--PLUS other signs that Michael was NOT functioning, as was "normal" for Michael.
The followers DID try to DO SOMETHING more---they wrote letters---but it seems Michael did not get to read them.

If, people around Michael had thought MORE of Michael than getting the shows done, "they" could have/should have done something differently.
Certainly Dr Murray did administer too many drugs, especially for Michaels weight----but WHAT/WHY was Michael losing so much weight, so quickly??

And also, the TINI site is NOT the ONLY site which is voicing the opinion that Michael's death--could--have been avoided--at the time he died.

Finally---it seems Michael was never comfortable with 50 shows. As the time grew closer, with that much pressure, of 50 shows--instead of 10, Michael might have felt "trapped". Perhaps he didn't know of any way out.
Dawn
 
I understand where the fans are coming from they were around michael and they saw that his weight was not what it use to be, even though he was healthy they knew somthing was not right with him and that concern them ,not saying that michael was addicted to medication at this time, the medication dr murray gave him was more for sleep and anxiety and I dont know why he gave michael a weight loss drug (phentermine). The truth of what happened to michael and the people behind it will come out!
 
I just wanted to say that before starting TINI, the fans thought hard about the implications to Michael's legacy and what HE would have wanted them to do. The conclusion was that Michael is too big and untouchable, his image can't be hurt by the very fans who he loved so much and just want to state the truth. These very fans were helping him in 2001 with the sony campaign, now they help him in death. These very fans are going to preserve his legacy in the future, after they feel they've taken their weight off their chest. You'll see.
 
No comment on the article...But the truth will get out soon some sad shit thats all i'm saying
 
StephluvsMJ said:
It's unfortunate that we're all divided like this. I don't disagree with the follower fans, I wasn't there so I don't know what they saw and there is no denying that Michael was thin. What I don't understand is why these follower fans are placing the blame on AEG. It's not like AEG conspired to hide his food. If Michael doesn't want to eat, then he's not going to eat. What were they going to do? Shove food down his throat? Michael was a grown man. People are only telling us what they saw. No one knows the full story. Maybe Michael was trying to put on weight. Maybe AEG was considering cancelling some shows so that Michael could rest and build some strength. Maybe Kenny and crew were worried about Michael and were trying to help. Maybe some people were planing some type of intervention. We just don't know. I just want to know the truth, whatever the truth may be. There are two sides to every story, and yes, I do believe Michael was thin, but I don't believe that had anything to do with AEG.
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Very well said, I believe the problem is between Michael and the propofol, the thinness is not a contributing factor aside from the dosage that was discussed on this thread. Dr. Murray should have never given Michael that combination of drugs to get him to sleep, that should have never happened
 
"If Michael was unhealthy and too thin, most definitely the dosage should have been decreased..."
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"If the wrong dosage of propofol was given because MJ had lost weight..."
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I simply can't believe the insanity of what I'm reading. There is no "wrong dosage" of propofol for Michael to use to sleep at night... there is no right dosage. Such blinders to refuse to understand this simple fact.

You're debating whether a smaller bullet should have been in the gun against his head before the trigger was pulled. Every propofol night was Russian roulette night, regardless of his weight.

No one outside that bedroom could have guessed the Russian roulette that was going on in there, because no one in history has been known to do such a thing.

All that was visible to the world outside that bedroom was a thin man who insisted to family, friends and colleagues he was fine and who demanded his privacy.

It's natural, in our grief and anger, to want to take action. But when that action is to organize and publicly accuse Michael's friends, people he loved and hand-picked to work with, people who are deeply grieving themselves, of participating in his death, a very serious line has been crossed.
 
Bo G said:
I simply can't believe the insanity of what I'm reading. There is no "wrong dosage" of propofol for Michael to use to sleep at night... there is no right dosage. Such blinders to refuse to understand this simple fact.

You're debating whether a smaller bullet should have been in the gun against his head before the trigger was pulled. Every propofol night was Russian roulette night, regardless of his weight.

No one outside that bedroom could have guessed the Russian roulette that was going on in there, because no one in history has been known to do such a thing.

All that was visible to the world outside that bedroom was a thin man who insisted to family, friends and colleagues he was fine and who demanded his privacy.

It's natural, in our grief and anger, to want to take action. But when that action is to organize and publicly accuse Michael's friends, people he loved and hand-picked to work with, people who are deeply grieving themselves, of participating in his death, a very serious line has been crossed.
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With all due respect, I disagree. Before MJ's death, Profocol was not a controlled substance and the FDA immediately moved to recify that point. Doctors and nurses have commonly been using/abusing this drug. How else would MJ, a person of his stature and connections would have known about this drug?

Secondly, it is only my opinion, but I submise that this substance was used in conjunction with other substances to counterbalance its effects. The search warrent has noted as much. It is also my firm belief that it may have been the reason for his weight drop off.

Again, I didn't take this as to mean that this group is accusing Michael's friends, although I would have to challenge what that word really meant in Michael's circle because I don't find him to have had many real friends. I certainly don't think that the organization or the people in that organization financially fronting his shows was his 'friend'.

But it is also my opinion that MJ's physical appearance was such that someone should have clearly noticed. What is sad to me is that there appear to be other factors that prevented anyone to be moved to act.

There's no insanity in pointing that out.
 
mello1 said:
With all due respect, I disagree...Doctors and nurses have commonly been using/abusing this drug.
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As for the "Doctors and nurses [who] have commonly been using/abusing this drug" that you refer to, it's hard to believe you're unaware of the massive difference between those uses and this kind of use, which does in fact appear by all experts' accounts to be radical and unprecedented.

I just hope prosecutors don't agree with you, because your argument could get Murray off with a mere slap of the hand.
 
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Cris123 said:
Please, read the statement and testimonies on the www.this-is-not-it.com
You will get 90% of your answers there.
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Hi chris
I see the testimonies but ..
there are no answers to questions we have just testimonies and I have some questions about them.
Becuase I believe there is some false info in some of them _In fact I know its false plus there is some
questionable info stated that I would like to ask them about _ that isnt clear to me.


I am not against the general TINI idea _ but I also see a lot of unfounded attacking, HATE and accusations
that have nothing to do with the info given by the follower fans _ yet you seem to welcome that to the TINI .
That is why people are confused as to what TINI agenda IS .. You all say something different _ and I would
think most fans dont want to be involved with a HATE group becuase that Is everthing MJ stood against.

Is there a spokesperson for TINI that we can contact
and will be willing to answer questions for the fans and clarify the Agenda of TINI??

If we are all suppose to bond together _
then we need to have some facts and questions answered on things
that are not clear about the follower testimonies and the TINI agenda itself

Questions are good :) thay help clarify things


HELP US Please ?
What is the AGENDA or mission statement of TINI ??


One question Ive been trying to get an answer for ..
Ive asked and have not recieved an answer. Someone stated that MJs coreographer or body guard
cant remember which now) physically forced MJ to go to a rehearsal against MJs will _ I just find that
accusation uncredible _ and NO source was ever given_ I think it is an important question

where did that info that MJ was forced to go to reheasals come from ???
1. Who was the source for that statement ?
2. who was it that was forcing MJ against his will ?
3. What did they see and hear to make them believe such a thing ??

Please See if someone is willing to speak for TINI and
answer questions we fans might have??



ON A SIDE NOTE _ just to let you know _ so you can nip that in the bud_
in case you want to make an official statement or something on your TINI site
Did you guys know that some Michael Jackson Death hoax people have taken up
your slogan _:doh: "This Is Not it " so fans are somehow confusing the 2 together _ :(
 
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I believe Michael's creative mind went into overdrive with all these ideas for the show and from that he unintentionally ignored his eating etc, and his mind constantly thinking kept him up all night which made him desperate for a solution which made careless, ignorant Murray give him the drug (which you are not allowed to give outside the hospital!) and that killed him.

So that's my belief -

* Brain overdrive
* Unintentionally ignoring himself
* Leads to severe insomnia
* Desperate for a solution
* Murray gives him drug which kills him
 
There will never be a truth to all of this because no story, fact or fiction, will satisfy everyone's curiosity of what really went on with MJ in the last few months of his life.
 
I read the testimonials when they first started. I understand where they are coming from - I think all of us think that this was a great loss, it is a loss that could most probably be avoided - so why did nobody prevent this from happening? This is a legit concern.

I also believe that they are telling the truth. I have no reason to believe otherwise or to discredit these fans.

But they are forgetting 2 important points.
1. yes they were around - mainly waiting and seeing MJ as he comes and goes to places but they were not right next to him 24/7. so they don't know the whole story, they just know some parts. So they actually do not know whether or not people warned MJ, talked with him, told him to take care or etc. They just assume that nobody did- and actually this is very wrong as they are convicting people without any solid proof but with just assumption and emotion.
2. they (and we) have no idea if the above situation happened what would MJ reaction was or going to be. Will he listen and make changes or just say leave me alone. A thousand people might have tried to save MJ but he could have not listened. This was a 50 year adult, it is not like they could get him committed to a hospital or force down food his throat or knock him unconscious to make him sleep.

In summary they make these very serious accusations without no solid proof but just with emotion. ( I take MJ's words about the contract as truth but he did not die due to unhappiness about the contract, or performing to closely or due to ticketting issues or due to seating arrangements etc).


And let's be honest I love MJ with all my heart but we know that he did not eat at his previous tours as well. We all know how Liz Taylor had hand feed him , how eventually they had to do it intravenously. We also heard that he had an expert touring with him and putting him to sleep in the 1990s as well. To me this looks like a long term issue and if we are going to say "why did nobody do anything to prevent this from happening?" we really should go back and point our finger to anybody that had contact with MJ from the day this weight/ sleep/drug issues started until today.
 
Oh come on, Michael was in great health, even see the autopsy report.

It was a HOMICIDE! The drugs put into his system by Conrad Murray killed him.
 
wendy2004 said:
I disagree with you. Michael has been that skinny before, to me. See, we all have different perceptions and views. And the reason some may say his weight had no bearing is becuz it was still up to a COMPETENT doctor to take that into consideration everytime he administered that drug...and that also goes for if Michael was GAINING weight. It was his job to take that into account. This doctor didn't do that. That's negligence...again, heavy or skinny. And Michael died from acute propofol intoxication which caused him to stop breathing. Had this doctor been in the room to reverse the effects and get Michael breathing, he'd be alive today....skinny, heavy, etc. My opinion only tho.
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I respect what you're saying, but I want to clarify one thing. When I mentioned how thin Michael was, I did not mean that it was the cause (directly or indirectly) as many people think is being implied. I think his thinness was a symptom of something more serious. I don't know what that was: stress, over-exertion, exhaustion, poor diet, or any combination of these things. But I do think it pointed to the fact that his health wasn't good. Yes we can see that he was still amazing. But I think there were underlying problems that either he or someone else didn't give the attention needed.
 
mjjfan4ever said:
I agree.

I keep thinking ... if I was one of those "follower fans" beyond grieving MJ's passing... I would some how feel so guilt ridden. I would sit here asking myself "WHAT COULD I HAVE DONE MORE to help MJ".
I can't imagine what the "follower fans" are dealing with. The grief and pain is tough enough for deal with... but then to have to deal with a BACKLASH from other fans because they are raising their concerns.... or feeling guilty for something that was out of my control? when no one would listen.

We all need to realize WE are on the SAME TEAM.

To the follower fans.... THANK YOU for being there for michael in those days.
THANK YOU FOR SHOWING SOME SORT OF CONCERN FOR HIS HEALTH WHEN OTHERS DIDN'T.
I am sorry for all that you are going through / have gone through.
Persevere for the truth.

And you are NOT alone.
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Amen to that. I will go to the movie several times with an open mind.
 
Neeve said:
the fact that his health wasn't good
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Wow... so the coroner who wrote the autopsy report must be in on this conspiracy too, then. On orders from the UN, I suspect.

BTW, can you point us to that really good site that documents how the moon landing was a hoax?
 
Bo G said:
Wow... so the coroner who wrote the autopsy report must be in on this conspiracy too, then. On orders from the UN, I suspect.

BTW, can you point us to that really good site that documents how the moon landing was a hoax?
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I'm not going to stoop to your level of mocking. If you had read the whole thread you would know that I'm not supporting or promoting conspriacies. I don't believe he was murdered, but I do think he was possibly neglected, over-worked and stressed and these are all very relevant factors, of which I believe his recent drastic weight-loss was a symptom.
 
Trish said:
Maybe it would be a good idea for MJJC to interview one of the fans that were around Michael at the time and ask them what they are trying to achieve with their campaign?
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for me it is nervwracking. Everywhere were I go, every board, every online site, every paper online site, where you can leave a comment, you will find these fans. Everywhere they make the movie down. They make me feel I am an idiot, if I go to the movie. Yes, I can imagine that very strange things were going on, I am one of the fans who can imagine that Michael was killed because of money, but it is only a belief or a suspicion, nothing what I could prove, but there are many hints which are suggesting that this theory could be right, but it is only a theory.
And I want very badly to see this movie, and I want not feeling guilty when I go to the cinema, and those fans make me feel guilty, they make me feel they are the good ones and I am bad or ignorant.

I would like to know what they want to achieve with that. In my opinion they don't do something positive for Michael's reputation. So what kind of man he was to do things, he didn't want to do, he was forced like a puppet, drug addicted (no, he needed medicamention yes) and so on. So what is their intention? I don't really understand! I have never heard about a crime where the victim was killed by preventing from eating and was forced to work to hard. From the footage we can see, it seems Michael enjoyed the work.

I want to get the chance to form an own opinion. For those, the rest of the fans WE ARE NOT BLIND!
 
JAMTDtt said:
I agree with all that you are saying. I'm just stating what I know as well. I do believe Murray has let down many doctors with his judgements and management of the situation.

I'm gonna see the movie too. I think what the follower fans are trying to say is, just to look at the movie carefully.
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I guess that there intention to view it with a differently but go see the comments at Karens FB. The majority are saying they are not gonna watch it. I wish they were creating this kind of noise before MJ passed away.
 
mjdove said:
They make me feel I am an idiot, if I go to the movie. .. those fans make me feel guilty, they make me feel they are the good ones and I am bad or ignorant...!
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Don't let them. Enjoy the previews. Then go see what we can of the show Michael created for us. Have fun, cry, smile, dance a little on the way in and out...

Life is too short to miss this important time to celebrate together MJ's life.
 
I dont know what to think anymore.... However I do think if we are to rank things in order of priority, we need to be getting Murray convicted first, and then if there are others implicated who contributed to the neglect of Michael, that comes later. A certain level of responsibility has to also lie with Michael himself. The man was a very smart, very astute, very decisive and inquisitive man. Im sure he must have had some idea of the risks with the drugs but believed he was invincible. Add to that heavy pressure of wanting to do the shows and an incompetent doctor and well... a recipe for disaster.

We are always going to be able to look at this situation and put the pieces of the puzzle together in different ways to alter the outcome. We will always be able to say "What if Dr Murray wasnt hired, what if he was healthier, what if this or that." The fact is, he is gone and the man who did it has his freedom. That is my biggest concern.
 
Noooooooooooooooooooooo. I just spent OVER AN HOUR typing a reply and my computer froze and closed my window!!!!! I'M SOOO MAD! Ugggh! Sorry.

Anyway,....
 
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Sorry, I don't have time to read the whole thread. But I just wanted to say that I can totally understand these fans wanting to ask the questions posed by the reuters article. If I had been there, on a regular basis, and had seen Michael's weight go down and his general appearance diminish I would try to do something about it (write letters etc). If that was ignored or blocked or my concerns were turned away, and then Michael died (sorry to be so blunt), then no matter what the ultimate cause of death was I would campaign to know why I was ignored, why Michael had looked the way he did, what impact (if any) Michael's health had on his passing.

It's not about conspiracies, it's about demanding to know the whole truth.

ETA: As for the autopsy report, has anyone actually seen the original??? Or are we just relying on the newspapers to report it accurately?
 
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