Michael Jackson's doctor says others gave him propofol

[Ramona122003]

Which kinda goes along with what I have been saying. They are making sure all their ducks are in a row and it is not so easy to convict a physician when he was administering medication because thats what they do. It wasn't to an unwilling participant. So, clearly we all see that this guy didn't do what he should have, but what 'rules' did he really break?

This is not about "administering medication." Why does this seems to be so hard for you to understand Beachlover? This is about a doctor screwing up badly.

This man gave drugs he was not train to give, did it even if he did not have a license to practice in the state he was in, he did not have the proper equipment to give the drugs, he gave way too much of the drug, he then left the room when the patient was under the influence, he then did not call 911 immediately after he saw his patient in distress, and he fail to do CPR correctly even though he is a heart doctor.

To add even more to the fire, he did not tell the people who try to revive Michael everything he gave him, he lied several times to police about what drugs he gave and when he gave them, and there is evident to suggest that he corrupted a crime scene.

It does not matter if he gave him the drugs, it is everything he did after he gave it to him. You can say if Murray wasn't there Michael could had found someone else, but there is a problem with that theory. Namely, he didn't have to find someone else because he said yes. If he had said no and found someone else and they killed them, then their ass would be in the fire.

If a girl went in a hotel room with a stranger for a 'good time' and the man ends up rapping and murdering her, are we going to say that the murder deserves a lesser sentence because she put herself in danger by going with him? No, because he still raped and murdered a person. It does not matter if the person put themselves in that situation. What are we trying to say, she deserves to die because she was stupid?

I understand where you are coming from Beachlover, but this is not about Murray given drugs. This is about how he endanger and killed his patient by his disregard to human life.

Also, this was not a 'normal' medical proceeder he did at a hospital. He did this in someone's house, which has no normal proceeder.

They maybe are trying to see who else fits into this puzzle, but you cannot excuse Murray just because the victim asked for something. He is the doctor, he is suppose to be looking out what is best for his patient, not giving to their every whim.

 

[Beachlover]

This is not about "administering medication." Why does this seems to be so hard for you to understand Beachlover? This is about a doctor screwing up badly.

This man gave drugs he was not train to give, he did not have the proper equipment to give the drugs, he gave way too much of the drug, he then left the room when the patient was under the influence, he then did not call 911 immediately after he saw his patient in distress, and he fail to do CPR correctly even though he is a heart doctor.

To add even more to the fire, he did not tell the people who try to revive Michael everything he gave him, he lied several times to police about what drugs he gave and when he gave them, and there is evident to suggest that he corrupted a crime scene.

It does not matter if he gave him the drugs, it is everything he did after he gave it to them. You can say if Murray wasn't there Michael could had found someone else, but there is a problem with that. Namely, he didn't have to find someone else because he said yes. If he had said no and found someone else and they killed them, then their ass would be in the fire.

If a girl went in a hotel room with a stranger for a 'good time' and the man ends up rapping and murdering her, are we going to say that the murder deserves a lesser sentence because she put herself in danger by going with him? No, because he still rap and murder a person. It does not matter if the person put themselves in that situation. What are we trying to say, she deserves to die because she was stupid?

I understand where you are coming from Beachlover, but this is not about Murray given drugs. This is about how he endanger and killed his patient by his disregard to human life.

Also, this was not a 'normal' medical proceeder he did at a hospital. He did this in someone's house, which has no normal proceeder.

They maybe are trying to see who else fits into this puzzle, but you cannot excuse Murray just because the victim asked for something. He is the doctor, he is suppose to be looking out what is best for his patient, not giving to their every whim.

You misunderstood my point here. Let me clarify. Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing that happened during the commission of a misdemeanor or because of gross negligence (carelessness). Involuntary manslaughter carries a sentence of 2 to 4 years. THIS is what you have proven here. I understand that.

I think they are looking to go further with this. If you did this, it would be murder hands down because you aren't a doctor or a nurse. You aren't allowed to give medications. What I am saying here is that this was a licensed physician. I don't actually know if he was or was not trained to use Propofol. Then again, is it a law that you must be trained in the drug to use it if you are a physician? See, these are the points I am making and from a legal stand point. Not my personal opinion.

I understand from my own personal feelings and thoughts that what he did is wrong but is it illegal? How can you prove disregard for human life? That is my point here. And yes, legally there is a difference if someone knows the risks involved.

Example: Before you go for a surgical procedure, or any kind of procedure you must sign a consent saying that you understand the risks and benefits. There are always risks. If you have a complication that was told to you before, and die, then it isn't the doctors fault unless due to negligence.

So, yes, we have proven negligence. So, he loses his license and goes to prison for 4 years and walks away?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

setting the path for no charges. wouldnt be surprised, mj life is worthless to many

 

[elusive moonwalker]

understand from my own personal feelings and thoughts that what he did is wrong but is it illegal? How can you prove disregard for human life?

not ringing 911 for an hour and a half would be a start

 

[adrianmonk]

I know there would be some kind of liver abnormailty if propofol used for along time . I'm talking about the other propofol bottles . at least 4 are not traced . and 8 bottles would have done nothing , and maybe some of them were not even opened . so murray was getting them from somewhere , we certainly did not hear about any other raid , so they maybe were not able to trace them and that's why no charges are brought against murray .

can you please link me to a source about the effects of propofol on the liver? i tried to look up medical references and i did not find anything other than it is cleared by the liver. i am just curious as a future doctor. if it is that damaging, and if michael actually used it during the HIStory tour, wouldn't there have been visible symptoms of this at that time? again, just curious, not saying anything that has been said is or isn't true.

 

[Ramona122003]

You misunderstood my point here. Let me clarify. Involuntary manslaughter is an unintentional killing that happened during the commission of a misdemeanor or because of gross negligence (carelessness). Involuntary manslaughter carries a sentence of 2 to 4 years. THIS is what you have proven here. I understand that.

I think they are looking to go further with this. If you did this, it would be murder hands down because you aren't a doctor or a nurse. You aren't allowed to give medications. What I am saying here is that this was a licensed physician. I don't actually know if he was or was not trained to use Propofol. Then again, is it a law that you must be trained in the drug to use it if you are a physician? See, these are the points I am making and from a legal stand point. Not my personal opinion.

I understand from my own personal feelings and thoughts that what he did is wrong but is it illegal? How can you prove disregard for human life? That is my point here. And yes, legally there is a difference if someone knows the risks involved.

Example: Before you go for a surgical procedure, or any kind of procedure you must sign a consent saying that you understand the risks and benefits. There are always risks. If you have a complication that was told to you before, and die, then it isn't the doctors fault unless due to negligence.

So, yes, we have proven negligence. So, he loses his license and goes to prison for 4 years and walks away?

The problem is even thought Murray is a doctor he was not license to give Propofol. He is a heart doctor. You can find his medical license online and he is not train to give a drug like Propofol, so it would not be that different from the average person giving it to him. If he did this in a hospital, it would had been unethical at best because he is not train to give this type of drug. Just because you are a doctor does not mean it is okay for you to inject any drug you want into patient. There are laws against that.

How do I prove disregard for human life. How about not even having the proper medical equipment in the room so I can give this drug safely. How about, leaving the room when the patient is under the influence of dangerous drugs. If you did this in a hospital tell me, what would happen to that person?

How about him waiting 45 minutes before calling 911? As a doctor, is it not your responsibility to get help for your patient if their are in distress? If this happen at a hospital and a doctor did not call for help right away when a patient stops breathing, what would happen to that person?

Also since Michael never sign a 'consent' form so we have no physical proof that Michael wanted to be pump full of those drugs, does that make Murray legally responsible?

Not to mention the evident that he may had corrupted a crime scene. That is a serious crime and could get him more years in jail then he would had gotten if he told the whole truth.

Murray would most like be charge with criminally negligent homicide with a minor chance of second degree murder. If change he will spend time and jail and will never be allow to practice again for the res of his life:

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of wilful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako).

In many jurisdictions such as California, malice may be found if gross negligence amounts to wilful or depraved indifference to human life. In such a case, the wrongdoer may be guilty of second degree murder.

 

[Beachlover]

not ringing 911 for an hour and a half would be a start

Well, this is where I don't know the complete time line. Will he say that he panicked?

 

[GOLDSPACESUIT45]

That's what I taught! No charges until mid- to late 2010.. Then trial starts sometime early 2011..to maybe 2012.. Wow what you think guys.. This will go on till 2012

 

[elusive moonwalker]

hes already changed his story and said it was 12 not 11. imo if theres no decent TOD then the police cant prove anything anyway. how do u prove murray found him at 11 instead of 12? u cant? and unless the police have this interview on tape where it can be shown murray actually said 11 then its he said she said interms of did the police mess up at write the wrong time? if u go with the murray found him 12 story then u have the negligence of him not montitoring mj properly ietalking on the phone and not having the right equipment to monitor him not ringing 911 for 20 mins. but its alot less then finding him at 11 and covering it up. murray is going for the lesser of two evils

 

[elusive moonwalker]

That's what I taught! No charges until mid- to late 2010.. Then trial starts sometime early 2011..to maybe 2012.. Wow what you think guys.. This will go on till 2012

your jumping the gun. wait for charges first

 

[Ramona122003]

can you please link me to a source about the effects of propofol on the liver? i tried to look up medical references and i did not find anything other than it is cleared by the liver. i am just curious as a future doctor. if it is that damaging, and if michael actually used it during the HIStory tour, wouldn't there have been visible symptoms of this at that time? again, just curious, not saying anything that has been said is or isn't true.

Taking too much of most drugs cause liver damage and I think experts pretty much said as much. Here is more information:

Propofol infusion syndrome is a rare syndrome which affects patients undergoing long-term treatment with high doses of the anaesthetic and sedative drug propofol. It can lead to cardiac failure, rhabdomyolysis, metabolic acidosis and renal failure and is often fatal.

A more serious but rare side effect is dystonia. Mild myoclonic movements are common, as with other intravenous hypnotic agents.

 

[Beachlover]

hes already changed his story and said it was 12 not 11. imo if theres no decent TOD then the police cant prove anything anyway. how do u prove murray found him at 11 instead of 12? u cant? and unless the police have this interview on tape where it can be shown murray actually said 11 then its he said she said interms of did the police mess up at write the wrong time? if u go with the murray found him 12 story then u have the negligence of him not montitoring mj properly ietalking on the phone and not having the right equipment to monitor him not ringing 911 for 20 mins. but its alot less then finding him at 11 and covering it up. murray is going for the lesser of two evils

Well, there were people in the house and his son was called to the room. So..there will be a time line based on the people in the house that were interviewed. I am sure the police interviewing him have it on tape.

 

[Ramona122003]

That's what I taught! No charges until mid- to late 2010.. Then trial starts sometime early 2011..to maybe 2012.. Wow what you think guys.. This will go on till 2012

I doubt this will ever go to trail. A plea-bargain is more likely.

 

[Beachlover]

The problem is even thought Murray is a doctor he was not license to give Propofol. He is a heart doctor. You can find his medical license online and he is not train to give a drug like Propofol, so it would not be that different from the average person giving it to him. If he did this in a hospital, it would had been unethical at best because he is not train to give this type of drug. Just because you are a doctor does not mean it is okay for you to inject any drug you want into patient. There are laws against that.

So, you know for a fact that it was not OK for him to give the Propofol legally?

 

[GOLDSPACESUIT45]

your jumping the gun. wait for charges first

Well more or less I think that will happen. Cause trials take time and years. For exp MJ got charge in late 03 and trial started early 04 and was finish 05.. See.. Now I know this is not Mj.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Well, there were people in the house and his son was called to the room.

that was denied by ppl who were in the house (the chef) we already have a timeline of what happened after midday. theres no issue with that.the problem is proving murray found him at 11am and the spent the next hour or so covering it up.did murray ever go down stairs in the morning or was the first time he was seen when he shouted for help?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Well more or less I think that will happen. Cause trials take time and years. For exp MJ got charge in late 03 and trial started early 04 and was finish 05.. See.. Now I know this is not Mj.

it took just over a year for mjs trial to start.it started jan 05 not in 04. just discuss what is relevent now at this rate there will be no charges

 

[Ramona122003]

hes already changed his story and said it was 12 not 11. imo if theres no decent TOD then the police cant prove anything anyway. how do u prove murray found him at 11 instead of 12? u cant? and unless the police have this interview on tape where it can be shown murray actually said 11 then its he said she said interms of did the police mess up at write the wrong time? if u go with the murray found him 12 story then u have the negligence of him not montitoring mj properly ietalking on the phone and not having the right equipment to monitor him not ringing 911 for 20 mins. but its alot less then finding him at 11 and covering it up. murray is going for the lesser of two evils

Not true, Michael's personal chief said herself that Murray usually came down at 9am to get him and Michael's breakfast. Around 11am Michael came down and always had lunch with his kids. Around 2pm his choreography would come over and such. On that date, Murray never came down at his usual time. If Murray usually got Michael's breakfast around 9am, why didn't he find him until 12pm. Also, why was he trying to make Michael sleep around 11am when he usually got up before 9am. You see the problem.

Also, they can check Michael's liver to find out how long he was actually dead. If it shows Michael was dead 3 or 4 hours before 911 was call, Murray's ass is cooked.

 

[Beachlover]

that was denied by ppl who were in the house (the chef) we already have a timeline of what happened after midday. theres no issue with that.the problem is proving murray found him at 11am and the spent the next hour or so covering it up.did murray ever go down stairs in the morning or was the first time he was seen when he shouted for help?

Did you read the search warrants? It is on them and thats what it says.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Not true,

what not true?

ichael's personal chief said herself that Murray usually came down at 9am to get him and Michael's breakfast. Around 11am Michael came down and always had lunch with his kids. Around 2pm his choreography would come over and such. On that date, Murray never came down at his usual time. If Murray usually got Michael's breakfast around 9am, why didn't he find him until 12pm. Also, why was he trying to make Michael sleep around 11am when he usually got up before 9am. You see the problem.

yeah this is what we know. murray claims mj was begging for diprivan at or around 10am which makes no sense as he would be getting up soon.but thats murrays reason for not coming down as normal to get his breakfast etc he was still trying to make mj sleep.the prob is proving what was really going on up there and in the hours b4

 

[Beachlover]

Not true, Michael's personal chief said herself that Murray usually came down at 9am to get him and Michael's breakfast. Around 11am Michael came down and always had lunch with his kids. Around 2pm his choreography would come over and such. On that date, Murray never came down at his usual time. If Murray usually got Michael's breakfast around 9am, why didn't he find him until 12pm. Also, why was he trying to make Michael sleep around 11am when he usually got up before 9am. You see the problem.

Also, they can check Michael's liver to find out how long he was actually dead. If it shows Michael was dead 3 or 4 hours before 911 was call, Murray's ass is cooked.

Which is why I don't understand if they can prove that why he has not been arrested. I think its not that cut and dry.

 

[GOLDSPACESUIT45]

Well I just have a hard time feeling sad that MJ is gone. Hope doctors get it.

 

[Ramona122003]

So, you know for a fact that it was not OK for him to give the Propofol legally?

Given Propofol is not illegal, it is not a control substance. However, Murray is a heart doctor and he is not train as an anesthetists. So, as a doctor he had no business given this drug. If he did this at an hospital he would had lost his license and went to jail. This is imply even more when you give it at someone's home and you don't even have the proper medical equipment.

 

[adrianmonk]

Taking too much of most drugs cause liver damage and I think experts pretty much said as much. Here is more information:

Propofol infusion syndrome is a rare syndrome which affects patients undergoing long-term treatment with high doses of the anaesthetic and sedative drug propofol. It can lead to cardiac failure, rhabdomyolysis, metabolic acidosis and renal failure and is often fatal.

A more serious but rare side effect is dystonia. Mild myoclonic movements are common, as with other intravenous hypnotic agents.

actually, upon further searching, propofol infusion syndrome presents primarily as muscle problems (both skeletal and cardiac), and is kind of an all-or-none situation with sudden and devastating onset, so likely did not affect michael (unless on his final day, but i do not want to think about that). none of the above symptoms are hepatic in nature. anyyyyyways i'm way off topic so i will let you return to your discussion while i look up articles on this :read:

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Did you read the search warrants? It is on them and thats what it says.

yeah murray claims this if thats what u mean but the chef said it never happened in interviews she gave. she said he didnt go upstairs just that murray shouted for him but that was it.

 

[Ramona122003]

Which is why I don't understand if they can prove that why he has not been arrested. I think its not that cut and dry.

They are building the strongest case against him as possible. They want all the facts before they move in. That is what a good investigater does. They also want to make sure no other party were involve, so they are holding the arrest.

There is also no hurry because they are keeping a close eye one Murray and he is not a danger to the public. His license is also suspended until charges are filed so he cannot practice. So, there is no hurry to arrest him.

 

[Beachlover]

Given Propofol is not illegal, it is not a control substance. However, Murray is a heart doctor and he is not train as an anesthetists. So, as a doctor he had no business given this drug. If he did this at an hospital he would had lost his license and went to jail. This is imply even more when you give it at someone's home and you don't even have the proper medical equipment.

But you are for sure this was illegal? Or are you just guessing. He used this medication as an 'off label' treatment for insomnia.

If he did this in a hospital why would he lose his license? Also, it doesn't matter if it is a controlled substance. This was a licensed physician.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Which is why I don't understand if they can prove that why he has not been arrested. I think its not that cut and dry.

prove the TOD? imo they cant cause otherwise it is cut and dry one way or the other interms of the more serious charges. and proving he covered things up.

 

[Sophielo]

They are building the strongest case against him as possible. They want all the facts before they move in. That is what a good investigater does. They also want to make sure no other party were involve, so they are holding the arrest.

There is also no hurry because they are keeping a close eye one Murray and he is not a danger to the public. His license is also suspended until charges are filed so he cannot practice. So, there is no hurry to arrest him.

Murray can't leave. They have people monitoring him so he cant leave the country, his licence has been suspended, and people wouldn't go to him anyway. These things take time and we need to be patient. Murray needs to be nailed-he cannot be acquitted on a technicality. This case needs to be water tight.

 

[Ramona122003]

But you are for sure this was illegal? Or are you just guessing. He used this medication as an 'off label' treatment for insomnia.

If he did this in a hospital why would he lose his license? Also, it doesn't matter if it is a controlled substance. This was a licensed physician.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Murray is not, I repeat, not an anesthetists. He is not license to give drugs like Propofol to a person even in a hospital. People train specially to give anesthetist. It is not something any doctor is allowed to do.

If a doctor give a patient an anesthetists and they are not license to do so, they could lost their job because they are not quilted to inject it. Being a doctor does not mean you can inject and drug you want. They require a different set of training than a normal doctor:

In the United States, anesthesiologists are physicians (MD or DO) who have chosen to specialize in anesthesiology. Anesthesiologists in the United States must have completed a four-year undergraduate college degree, including pre-medical requirements. Like other physicians, anesthesiologists complete four years of medical school. Physician training programs in the United States, without exception, require four years of residency training for board certification eligibility in the specialty of anesthesiology (usually one year of general medical or surgical training followed by three years of clinical anesthesiology training). In all, after graduating high school, physicians specializing in anesthesiology complete at least twelve years of education and training prior to becoming eligible for board-certification.

Anesthesiology residency training in the U.S. encompasses the full scope of perioperative medicine, including pre-operative medical evaluation, management of pre-existing disease in the surgical patient, intraoperative life support, intraoperative pain control, post-operative recovery, intensive care medicine, and chronic and acute pain management. After residency, many anesthesiologists complete an additional fellowship year of subspecialty training in areas such as pain management, cardiac anesthesiology, pediatric anesthesiology, neuro anesthesiology, obstetric anesthesiology or critical care medicine.

The majority of Anesthesiologists in the United States are board-certified by a specialty medical board; either the American Board of Anesthesiology (ABA) or the American Osteopathic Board of Anesthesiology (AOBA). The ABA is a member of the American Board of Medical Specialties, while the AOBA falls under the auspices of the American Osteopathic Association. Both Boards are recognized by the major insurance underwriters in the U.S. as well as by all branches of the U.S. Uniformed Services. Board certification by the ABA involves both a written and an oral examination. AOBA certification requires the same, in addition to a practical examination with examining physicians observing the applicant actually administering anesthetics in the O.R.