Latest on MJJC

Michael Jackson's doctor says others gave him propofol

exactly...end of the day what happened on 25th June is medical mispractise on multiple counts
1, you dont administer any hospital grade sedative without proper monitoring instrument
2, you dont let the patient unattended
3, you have legal duty and moral obligation to call for help immediately if something goes wrong - Murray can not account for 60mins or 45mins even if he cant account for 10mins it is already too late!
4, you dont supply a patient with a drug if you suspect dependancy or addiction
5, last and not least when someone is working with a patient it is the doctors duty to give the best suitable medication. Prescribing an insomniac a pile of sedatives and upgrading the dose over 10years is not exactly fair practise...
 
Beachlover said:
Murder is willful intent to kill.
Click to expand...

Murder: Second degree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. :smilerolleyes:
 
Beachlover said:
Murder is willful intent to kill.
Click to expand...

You need to read California law. Most lawyers/commentators agree that Murray could be charged with Murder in the 2 degree with IMPLIED Malice.

You gotta do your research.

Murray (In my and other legal opinions) showed a willful disregard of human life by showing extreme recklessness. Case in point:
For example, if an aggressor punches a victim in the nose, intending only to injure the victim's face, the aggressor may be charged with murder if the victim dies from the blow. The infliction of serious bodily injury becomes the equivalent of an intent to kill when the victim dies. Although the aggressor in such a case did not have the express desire to kill the victim, he or she would not be charged with assault, but with murder. To understand why, it is helpful to consider the alternative: When a person dies at the hands of an aggressor, it does not sit well with the public conscience to preclude a murder charge simply because the aggressor intended only to do serious bodily injury.

Some murders involving extreme recklessness on the part of the defendant cause extreme public outrage. In People v. Dellinger, 783 P.2d 200 (Cal. 1989), the defendant, Leland Dellinger, was found guilty of the murder of his two-year old stepdaughter. The primary cause of the child's death was a fractured skull caused by trauma to the head. However, other evidence showed that the child had large quantities of cocaine in her system when she died. Moreover, her mother discovered that the defendant had fed the child wine through a baby bottle. Due to the defendant's "wanton disregard for life," the verdict of murder was proper, according to the California Supreme Court.

A person who unintentionally causes the death of another person also may be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory. Depraved-heart murder refers to a killing that results from gross negligence. For example, suppose that a man is practicing shooting his gun in his backyard, located in a suburban area. If the man accidentally shoots and kills someone, he can be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory, if gross Negligence is proven.
Click to expand...

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Second-degree+murder

It can easily be argued that although Murray didn't intend for Michael Jackson to die, his reckless behavior caused Michael's DEATH. His reckless behavior by providing Diprivan without the proper training, medical supervision, and equipment to a patient caused a death with immediate effect.

Murder 2 can be argued in Michael's case.
 
Trish said:
Everyone here is parsing hairs. I don't get it??

Dr. Conrad Murray is responsible for Michael Jackson's untimely death. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Dr. Conrad Murray is not a trained anesthesiologist, yet, he gave Michael Jackson a substance (Diprivan) that he wasn't trained in giving. There was no heart monitoring equipment, no blood pressure monitor, nothing to monitor Michael Jackson's oxygen levels. There were no breathing apparatuses. There was no defibrillator. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this doctor had a willful disregard of human life because if he HAD regard for HUMAN LIFE he would have had the ABOVE EQUIPMENT? No??

C'mon guys.

He went above and beyond negligence by not having the common equipment used to administer ANY anesthesia. He went above and beyond negligence by not calling an ambulance when he discovered that Michael was in some sort of arrest. Murray couldn't even perform CPR properly!! Why didn't he remove Michael off the bed when performing his one handed CPR? Didn't want anyone in the room to notice that RIGOR was starting to set in?

When the EMT's got there, they wanted to call it - meaning they wanted to declare Michael Jackson dead.. but because Murray was the ranking physician, the EMT's had to follow his orders and take Michael to the hospital while working on Michael in vain. Michael was dead and long gone by the time he got to UCLA medical center. The EMT records are on TMZ so don't ask me to link them here. You can find it.

Was Dr. Murray negligent? Sure. Now lets prove murder in the second degree. Was there malice? A willful disregard of human life? Did Dr. Murray cover anything up while in the house? Why did he take 40 plus minutes to call for help? Why didn't he know common CPR? He's a cardiologist, correct? How could he NOT know the proper way to administer CPR? And since he's a Doctor, why didn't he have the proper equipment to monitor Michael Jackson? Why did he flee the hospital after Michael's death? Remember, no one could find Dr. Murray. Why didn't he SIGN the death certificate? Ephedrine was found in Michael's body and we all know Ephedrine is commonly used in conjunction with anesthesia like Diprivan in order to treat hypotenstion (Low Blood Pressure). How much was given to Michael during the 6 weeks Murray treated him? How many close calls did Michael Jackson have under Dr. Murray's care? Did Dr. Murray care?? Or did he have a willful disregard of a human life by administering without having equipment and specialists to monitor Michael Jackson while he was under sedation? MURRAY is the one in control because HE IS THE PHYSICIAN. Michael is the patient who was given a lethal dose or dosages of Propofol and other drugs, which ended his life.

These are the questions that a grand jury will probably answer. Matter of fact a Grand Jury was already convened and Murray's girlfriend was questioned. I have a feeling they are trying to determine which charge to go for and I'm betting that the D.A. is going to go for Murder 2 because there was a willful disregard of human life which resulted in death. Murray didn't mean for Michael Jackson to die. But because he was SO careless, Michael DIED.

*sigh*

Even Dr. Kevorkian even used a HEART MONITOR - damn.
Click to expand...

:clapping::clapping::clapping:........excellent post Trish
 
person commits negligent homicide if that person "with criminal negligence" causes the death of another person. Criminal negligence means the failure "to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk" of death. The risk "must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation." This standard is not significantly different from the standard applied in civil cases (compare "gross deviation" from the standard of care with "failure to comply" with the standard of care). The standard for a finding of criminal negligence may be less rigorous than that required for an award of punitive damages in a civil action. Negligent homicide is a Class 4 felony and is punishable by up to 3.75 years in prison and a fine of up to $150,000.

A person commits manslaughter by "recklessly causing the death of another person ...." In this context, recklessness means "that a person is aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk" of death. As is the case in negligent homicide, "the risk must be of such a nature and degree that disregard ... constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe...." Manslaughter, a Class 2 felony, is punishable by up to 12.5 years in prison and a $150,000 fine.

A person commits second degree murder if, without premeditation, the person "under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life ... recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death and thereby causes the death of another person." Second degree murder is a Class 1 felony and is punishable by up to twenty years in prison.


So, ok I am understanding these terms. I am understanding totally that Murray is responsible, there is no question that he was wrong.

I will not argue with a moderator because of course it is disrespectful. I think my questions were more pertaining to 'what do we know as fact' and 'what do we know as speculation'. By the way I can not find the TMZ document of the EMT records and the Google search actually brought me back here to this link in the forum. (WOW that was pretty quick)

I think I saw this a while back but I didn't copy it so I don't have it handy. I don't remember anything on it that struck me. I am inclined to believe it is manslaughter legally. In my mind it is something much more but that is because I have emotions.
 
Flashback:


Stash of Propofol at Jackson's House
Posted Aug 14th 2009 2:00AM by TMZ Staff

Michael Jackson's doctor, Conrad Murray, had a stash of Propofol hidden in a closet in Jackson's house, but there are signs Dr. Murray may have either stored Propofol elsewhere or had a steady stream of FedEx deliveries.

Law enforcement sources tell TMZ authorities found 3 large bottles of Propofol and 5 smaller vials of the anesthetic in Jackson's house. The drugs were found in the closet attached to Dr. Murray's bedroom ... the bedroom where the doctor administered Propofol to Jackson the day he died.

But numerous anesthesiologists tells us ... if the stash was used to keep Jackson asleep for 8 hours, it would require approximately 3 bottles and 5 vials. ... so the entire stash would only have lasted one night.

Law enforcement sources tell us Dr. Murray regularly administered Propofol to keep Jackson asleep for the evening. Our sources say law enforcement believes Dr. Murray was getting shipments of the drug through FedEx and may also have been storing it outside Jackson's home ... so he could regularly administer the drug
Click to expand...
.

i think they made a mistake in the search warrant because when they listed the drugs found beside mj's bed no propofol was mentioned , yet later someone wrote the bottles were recovered from the bag and beside the bed .

no propofol was recovered from the bedroom.

again they traced 5 bottles of propofol out of eight found in murray's bag , the five were bought on may 12 and those five bottles were also the bottles used the day mj's died , HOW COME ?

the recovered 8 as i said before, are mentioned in the other search warrant and here in this article .

and as mentioned in the article those 8 bottles were enough for one night only , where all of this leave us ? no wonder the investigators are so confuced? something does not make sense at all.


murray used the bottles he bought on 12 may the day mj died and the investigators could not trace anything beyond those bought on 12 may and used on 25 june?

God , where this leave us guys ?
 
Last edited:
Both can be argued. What I'm getting at is The D.A. is being very careful because there can be public outrage if this doctor isn't charged properly. Manslaughter is an easy charge - there is enough there for Manslaughter. But D.A. is taking time to prove another charge which I believe is murder 2 with implied malice.

And you can argue with me.. :) Long as it's a civil debate. ;)
 
I agree they are being careful and going for the higher charge because I believe they need to make an offer to Murray but I am not sure how that works. Someone else in this forum seemed to know more about that.

I understand fully the medical part and how that works and I know how difficult it is to charge a doctor with a crime. I don't know why it is so 'important' to me. Its not like any of this will bring Michael back and it also isn't like seeing Murray suffer would really make me feel any better. Part of me feels he did it for the money which he desperately needed and if you read about his clinic, he was treating a lot of people who had no insurance and could not pay, so I am inclined to think he was not a bad person. There were other doctors in Michaels life that were much worse in my book and they have nothing to do with this.

I think for me a way of working through the grief is to talk about things and keep my mind busy if you know what I mean.

So, we all have our own way of dealing with our grief. I know many will say I am crazy to feel sorry for Murray because of the circumstances but please understand, I don't think him less guilty.
 
no he was not a bad person , someone who fathered 7 kids with so many different women and fails to support them is not a bad person .
 
Soundmind said:
no he was not a bad person , someone who fathered 7 kids with so many different women and fails to support them is not a bad person .
Click to expand...

Here is the thing. I don't want to argue him as a nice guy. Clearly, he screwed up. I just think his life circumstances lead him to this awful place and he took this job with the hopes of fixing his money problems. He was a working cardiologist in a clinic that didn't get paid a lot and he continued to do that for the people who he felt needed him. I am sure he could have gotten a job somewhere else but he wanted to keep this clinic going.

Its easy for all of us to judge but being broke is not a crime.
 
Frank DiLeo said Murray wanted a lot didn't he?

Doctor Murray wanted a exuberant amount of money, to close his practices go to London and live there for 8 months with his family and everybody. So he mentioned the number to one of the people negotiating. And I said we're never paying that.
Click to expand...
So we negotiated and we got him down an when hed wanted a certain number and I yelled no This is what the artist wants to pay 150, and he accepted it.
Click to expand...
but I agree with what Trish said.
 
Last edited:
Beachlover said:
Here is the thing. I don't want to argue him as a nice guy. Clearly, he screwed up. I just think his life circumstances lead him to this awful place and he took this job with the hopes of fixing his money problems. He was a working cardiologist in a clinic that didn't get paid a lot and he continued to do that for the people who he felt needed him. I am sure he could have gotten a job somewhere else but he wanted to keep this clinic going.

Its easy for all of us to judge but being broke is not a crime.
Click to expand...
Only thing he had to do was telling Michael NO, I will not give you that drug. It is not suppose to be used like that. Even Doctors in these kinds of clinics follow rules. There is no excuse for this. If he was afraid of Jackson firing him, then too bad. Murray missed up. You have to stand by ethics in these kinds of fields. I work in law enforcement and the officers have to follow a certain standard because they ARE THE LAW. An officer can not take his gun and shot someone because a person wants to be shot or beat someone because someone made them mad.
 
A_Powerful_Mind said:
Duh Murray??

You were the LAST person to give him propofol and that's why you'll be going to prison.
;)
Click to expand...

actually I dont think he is going to be sentenced...I think he will be banned from practising his licence will be revoked and he is broke already so he will struggle in the coming years...but I wouldnt hold my breath for a jail sentence people...
 
vargak said:
actually I dont think he is going to be sentenced...I think he will be banned from practising his licence will be revoked and he is broke already so he will struggle in the coming years...but I wouldnt hold my breath for a jail sentence people...
Click to expand...


He will get jail time even if he is given just manslaughter charges. If convicted, he would most likely spend 12 to 18 months in jail.
 
I can't stand it when Murray uses that damn excuse of wanting to wheen or (what ever) Michael off the probofil. I mean, why would you ever risk giving the person the drug...and I'm sorry...ahh, if you are making sure that you're only giving him a controlled dose, why in the hell is he gone?

He may not have had to intent to kill, yet he certainly wasn't taking every percaution to make sure Michael had the professional medical treatment. You don't give someone a drug that could be fatal, esp if you're a heart specialist. Everyone knows the dangers if you're in medicine. *sighs*
 
terrell said:
Only thing he had to do was telling Michael NO, I will not give you that drug. It is not suppose to be used like that. Even Doctors in these kinds of clinics follow rules. There is no excuse for this. If he was afraid of Jackson firing him, then too bad. Murray missed up. You have to stand by ethics in these kinds of fields. I work in law enforcement and the officers have to follow a certain standard because they ARE THE LAW. An officer can not take his gun and shot someone because a person wants to be shot or beat someone because someone made them mad.
Click to expand...

The only reason he hired him was to give him the Propofol.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Actually, Michael did take herbal medications for his insomnia before he died. It was given to him by Nurse Lee who was trying to treat his insomnia with a more natural solution. She had stated herself that she would give him herbs to sleep, but he would just wake up in less than 4 hours and couldn't fall back to sleep. She even changed his diet and gave him vitamins, but they did not work either.
Click to expand...


Do you know which herbal meds Michael tried?

I wish he would have tried Yoga Nidra. :( Maybe, just maybe...
 
Who cares what others gave Michael Jackson, his treatment/dosage is directly responsible for what killed him. Is there long-term effects from Propofol? I haven't read anything about it. MJ didn't die of liver failure or something else where other dosages could be held responsible. In this case, it appears Murray's administering of the drugs is the direct cause of death.
 
Beachlover said:
Here is the thing. I don't want to argue him as a nice guy. Clearly, he screwed up. I just think his life circumstances lead him to this awful place and he took this job with the hopes of fixing his money problems. He was a working cardiologist in a clinic that didn't get paid a lot and he continued to do that for the people who he felt needed him. I am sure he could have gotten a job somewhere else but he wanted to keep this clinic going.

Its easy for all of us to judge but being broke is not a crime.
Click to expand...

Poor, poor M.

Above all, he's broke. That is excuse for killing people????????
 
Beachlover said:
Here is the thing. I don't want to argue him as a nice guy. Clearly, he screwed up. I just think his life circumstances lead him to this awful place and he took this job with the hopes of fixing his money problems. He was a working cardiologist in a clinic that didn't get paid a lot and he continued to do that for the people who he felt needed him. I am sure he could have gotten a job somewhere else but he wanted to keep this clinic going.

Its easy for all of us to judge but being broke is not a crime.
Click to expand...

Maybe he wouldn't have been so broke had he kept it in his pants and not produced all these children he has to now support.
 
terrell said:
Only thing he had to do was telling Michael NO, I will not give you that drug. It is not suppose to be used like that. Even Doctors in these kinds of clinics follow rules. There is no excuse for this. If he was afraid of Jackson firing him, then too bad.Murray missed up. You have to stand by ethics in these kinds of fields. I work in law enforcement and the officers have to follow a certain standard because they ARE THE LAW. An officer can not take his gun and shot someone because a person wants to be shot or beat someone because someone made them mad.
Click to expand...

as Beachlover said the only reason Murray was hired was to give propofol , he was calling Dr.Adams and another colleague to join him in march , he had no intention of treating mj's insomnia , he was hired to give propofol, the last thing he wanted to do was to introduce mj to a safe and cheap solution . he can't claim i was hired first and after i left my clinic and family , i discovered he wanted propofol and i had no choice but to give to him . murray was asking about propofol since march two months later he was hired officially .

they would be able to trace the propofol , i think this is the problm now , they want to know how much propofol exactly this man had given mj during the weeks before his death, that's why tmz are reporting the DA want to make sure no one but applied pharmacy gave him propofol.

there was no excessive use of propofol as murray suggested , he occasionally spent the night at that house , according to his own lawyer Matt Alford . mj was making phone calls to people all the time during the nights .

that's the main focus now , this whole story about "I tried to wean him off of propofol " when the supply of propofol suggest a completely different story .

they interviewed him for three hours you would think he told them where he obtained the propofol from, that would support his story of giving mj propofol every night for six weeks .

he obviously did not tell them , BUT WHY? does not he want to provide evidence jackson was "addicted" to it ? by giving the investigators what they want, the amount he purchased and administered would have been a clear evidence of what happened during the last two months .

he already confessed he gave propofol, he gave it for six weeks , but he chose not to disclose where he obtained it from , or what amount he purchased . this guy is retard indeed.

the investigators are building their case on what amounts he purchased from applied pharamcy and they don't want their whole case to crumble in case murray had another mean to obtain propofol . i can only think of one reason why they believe it is a top priority to determine for sure whether there was no other place he got propofol from . the amounts obtained from the applied pharmacy are not huge at all . they don't support murray's story .
 
Last edited:
is it me or the lot numbers on the bottles found at mj's house in murray's bag are the only thing removed from the search warrants . they have a receipt found at his house that list the (5) propofol,(2) versed ,(1)lidocaine and (1)flumazenil . they did not say what they found in the pharmacy records .

Nonetheless, what they found certainly did not support murray's six week of daily propofol timeline .that's why the DA is looking into whether there was another source if any .

from the search warrant they did indeed trace ALL the propofol bottles to applied pharmacy . I read the search warrant again , it is mentioned on page 16 . but they did not say the bottles bought on 12 may were the ones found in murray's bag as the media suggested .

the bottles mentioned on 12 may were discovered by the investigators through a receipt found at murray's house and mentioned as a reason why the judge should have signed a search warrant.

the 8 bottles found in his bag were traced also to applied pharmacy and were another reason why the judge should have granted them a search warrant .

why the media fail to read carefully . damn them .
 
Soundmind said:
Beachlover , giving a drug with no margin of error without following the instructions from the manufacturor is an evidense of " noregard to human life" , what more evidence do you want ?

and before people say he abused propofol read carefully about the abusers , they reinject themselves many times a day . something mj never did .
Click to expand...

Soundmind, do you have a link for that article?
 
Soundmind said:
none of these instructions were followed by murray even though he knew he was dealing with a drug with no margin for error, yet some here want us to trust them when they say their is no evidence murray'actions demonstrated no regard to human life .
Click to expand...

I'd like a link to this too, please. thanks!
 
Soundmind said:
Flashback:


.

i think they made a mistake in the search warrant because when they listed the drugs found beside mj's bed no propofol was mentioned , yet later someone wrote the bottles were recovered from the bag and beside the bed .

no propofol was recovered from the bedroom.

again they traced 5 bottles of propofol out of eight found in murray's bag , the five were bought on may 12 and those five bottles were also the bottles used the day mj's died , HOW COME ?

the recovered 8 as i said before, are mentioned in the other search warrant and here in this article .

and as mentioned in the article those 8 bottles were enough for one night only , where all of this leave us ? no wonder the investigators are so confuced? something does not make sense at all.


murray used the bottles he bought on 12 may the day mj died and the investigators could not trace anything beyond those bought on 12 may and used on 25 june?

God , where this leave us guys ?
Click to expand...

exactly what did the two women in LV remove from that storage? just papers, or were there other kinds of stuff? Murray had to have disposed of the other bottles over the six weeks somehow. that is, if it was happening for six weeks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top