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Michael Jackson's doctor says others gave him propofol

'michael jackson's doctor says others gave him propofol'

aaand?! it was your administration that killed him. he was under your care when he died.
 
well i guess the judge released the warrants cause we have already read this b4. other warrants said exact same thing when they were released a while back.i guess the police didnt want it released cause its now told murray that the police have directly connected him to the diprivan was that not confirmed b4?. not that he didnt know that anyway! can we get trafficking charge inregards to the drug going from vegas to l.a or not?

My thing with this though is, why did Michael need to be prescribed this in the first place as a sleeping aid while on the tour? I just don't get it. A course was started here that led to something deadly happening.
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i thought that was pretty obvious? he suffered from insominia and had to sleep becasue he was doing shows. when he wasnt working i guess he put up with not being able to sleep or maybe he could sleep more.it was only when he was rehearsing that the adrelinin(sp) was so high it made it imposs to sleep at all and thats why he used what he did. i remember during the trial a ranch staff memeber said it wasnt uncommon to see mj walking around the grounds of the ranch at 3-4am so thats an obvious example of his problems
 
in the first search warrants they found 8 bottles of propofol , but here they traced only four . so they must have been searching where the rest came from .

the number of bottles maybe a prove murray lied about six weeks of propofol , how many bottles you need for one night ?
 
Soundmind said:
in the first search warrants they found 8 bottles of propofol , but here they traced only four . so they must have been searching where the rest came from .

the number of bottles maybe a prove murray lied about six weeks of propofol , how many bottles you need for one night ?
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Do you mean he gave it to him longer than 6 weeks? I always figure it was less because of the no organs damage and the fact that Kenny said Michael would actually call him at 4am in the morning.
 
I meant less much less, also notice he purchased propofol , lidocaine, midazolam and flumazenil together , the intent was never to replace propofol with midazolam , they were typically used with each other and that's what murray did , so much for "I tried to wean him of propofol by using other sedatives "
 
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Soundmind said:
I meant less much less, also notice he purchased propofol , lidocaine, midazolam and flumazenil together , the intent was never to replace propofol with midazolam , they were typically used with each other and that's what murray did , so much "I tried to wean him of propofol by using other sedatives "
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I guess I got a little confuse about your less post, because I thought you meant he bought more than what was needed for one night.

Although, it sounds like you need alot propofol to render someone unconsious for a full 8 hours. Experts said that 25mg will only make a person sleep for a couple of minutes, but he only had 8 bottles of 100 and 50mg in his beg. Even with other sedatives, that number sounds low.

I am beginning to wonder if Michael only used the propofol to get him to sleep, before the doctor stopped the treatment. He then stay up and when Michael began to wake up, he would used the propofol again to knock him out and he would do this until morning. That would explain how Michale would feel well rested in the morning, since he would had slept more naturally for the rest of the night.
 
we did not hear about any other raid related to mj since the raid on mikey pharamacy , so is it me or they indeed did not trace all the bottles and could not verify murray's story whether he was giving it for six weeks or not ?

that what TMZ were talking about , where the rest of propofol came from ?


so klien may not be off the hook after all . good thing .
 
Soundmind said:
we did not hear about any other raid related to mj since the raid on mikey pharamacy , so is it me or they indeed did not trace all the bottles and could not verify murray's story whether he was giving it for six weeks or not ?

that what TMZ were talking about , where the rest of propofol came from ?


so klien may not be off the hook after all . good thing .
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Could they just trance phone calls that Michael made during that six week time period? Or even talk to his staff to see if he was walking around at different hours of the night? If he called Kenny during that timeline, it would be proof that Murray was not honest about the six week timeframe.

That in the fact that his liver should be damage if he took propofol for 8 hours every night for six week. Although not solid proof, it would be an indicter that something was not right.
 
n the first search warrants they found 8 bottles of propofol , but here they traced only four . so they must have been searching where the rest came from .
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does that matter though? as long as they have connected the others or will murray say another doctor bought them for mj .butseeing as murray admitted giving it to mj on the 25th that shouldnt be an issue?
 
If he called Kenny during that timeline, it would be proof that Murray was not honest about the six week timeframe
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one of murrays lawyers at the begining said murray only stayed over at mjs house rarely. a contridiction. its gonna be easy enough to prove one way or the other interms of how long murray was giving mj the stuff. witnesses who knew murray was there if he stayed over night etc. they had a log at the ranch for all ppl coming and going. obviously thats a huge property but i wonder if there was anything similar at the house.
 
I know there would be some kind of liver abnormailty if propofol used for along time . I'm talking about the other propofol bottles . at least 4 are not traced . and 8 bottles would have done nothing , and maybe some of them were not even opened . so murray was getting them from somewhere , we certainly did not hear about any other raid , so they maybe were not able to trace them and that's why no charges are brought against murray .
 
so they maybe were not able to trace them and that's why no charges are brought against murray .
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why would that matter. hes admitted giving mj it and hes been traced to x amount of bottles.so theres a direct connection to his confession
 
elusive moonwalker said:
one of murrays lawyers at the begining said murray only stayed over at mjs house rarely. a contridiction. its gonna be easy enough to prove one way or the other interms of how long murray was giving mj the stuff. witnesses who knew murray was there if he stayed over night etc. they had a log at the ranch for all ppl coming and going. obviously thats a huge property but i wonder if there was anything similar at the house.
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This was not his ranch, however, it was a place he was rented so he may not have a sign-in log. However, didn't Michael's personal chief said that Murray had a routine every morning for, I think it was, 3 weeks.

Even so, his organs should show some damage if he was using for 8 hours for even three weeks. That is why I am beginning to question if Michael was really using propofol for 8 hours or was he using it to get to sleep and the doctor would stop the administrative and allow Michael to sleep naturally. And when he began to wake up, he would give him another dose of propofol, knock him off and then turn it off after a certain amount of time. It have been proven in hospital that people usually continue to sleep ever after the sedation wears off.

Also, I think it is important to trance all the drugs because they want to cover all their bases. They may want to nail Murray on illegally transporting drugs without an license and the more they find, the more jail time he would get. Someone had a theory on that, but I cannot remember it right now.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
does that matter though? as long as they have connected the others or will murray say another doctor bought them for mj .butseeing as murray admitted giving it to mj on the 25th that shouldnt be an issue?
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it is very important elusive , they have to know whether he lied about the six weeks thing , this whole thing about I tried to wean him off and he refused .
the more lies the less trustworthy murray will seem to the jury , there is alot of things happened that night, the detective already said murray told them at 11 mj stopped breathing , murray later enied that, he told them i gave him propofol at 10.40 , does not make sense at all ..... i gave him valium, midazolam , lorazepam to wean him off propofol , yet he purchased midazolam with propfol clear sign the intenet was alwasy to use it before propofol immediately not instead of it . the time of death , will be subject to alot of debate .

the police have a theory , murray will try to present an explanation to everything, the more lies they expose the stronger their theory will be and murray's words would not be enough at all to counter the DA 's case .
 
Soundmind said:
it is very important elusive , they have to know whether he lied about the six weeks thing , this whole thing about I tried to wean him off and he refused .
the more lies the less trustworthy murray will seem to the jury , there is alot of things happened that night, the detective already said murray told them at 11 mj stopped breathing , murray later enied that, he told them i gave him propofol at 10.40 , does not make sense at all ..... i gave him valium, midazolam , lorazepam to wean him off propofol , yet he purchased midazolam with propfol clear sign the intenet was alwasy to use it before propofol immediately not instead of it . the time of death , will be subject to alot of debate .

the police have a theory , murray will try to present an explanation to everything, the more lies they expose the stronger their theory will be and murray's words would not be enough at all to counter the DA 's case .
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Actually, wouldn't valium be a poor choice to wean someone off of anything? I remember hearing experts saying that valium was more dangerous than propofol because you actually can get addictive to it. They also said if you just take someone off of it, it could cause them to have a brain seizure and lapse into a coma. It is also a hospital drug used for surgeries.

So, I find it strange he would used the wean excuse, while using such a drug. I wonder in fact why the heck he even brought something like this to begin with. I could be mistaken, but valium is not usually mix with propofol, I am right>
 
I think you have to ask Beachlover about that .


benzos are usually and normally given before propofol , midazolam certainly is not a way to wean someon off propofol , nor is lorazepam , not through an IV at least .

versed and lorazepam through an iv can cause carrdiac arrest , they are very similar to propofol , and using them as sleep aids was as absurd as using propofol , the only advantage over propofol there is actually a drug to counter their effect , flumazenil .
 
Diazepam [Valium] is one of the most slowly eliminated benzodiazepines. It has a half-life of up to 200 hours, which means that the blood level for each dose falls by only one half in about 8.3 days. The only other benzodiazepines with similar half lives are chlordiazepoxide [Librium], flunitrazepam [Rohypnol] and flurazepam [Dalmane] all of which are converted to a diazepam metabolite in the body. The slow elimination of diazepam allows a smooth, gradual fall in blood level, allowing your body to adjust slowly to a decreasing concentration of the benzodiazepine. With more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepine e.g. lorazepam, (Ativan) (which has a half-life of 10-20 hours) the blood concentration drops rapidly and withdrawal symptoms can occur between doses, because your body has little time to adjust to low concentrations.

Diazepam comes in the smallest dosage levels of all benzodiazepines – 2mg tablets which can be halved to give 1mg doses. This means you can reduce in stages of 1mg every 1-4 weeks or more. It is difficult to obtain such low doses of other benzodiazepines. For example the lowest dose of lorazepam in the UK is 1mg, equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. (In the US 0.5mg lorazepam are available, but these are equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

Many other benzodiazepines are more potent than diazepam. For example lorazepam (Ativan) is 10 times stronger and it is difficult to reduce from this gradually. Temazepam [Restoril], though less potent than diazepam, has a shorter half-life and the smallest tablet is 10 mg (equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

Because of the slow elimination and small available dosage strengths of diazepam, it is often advisable to switch to diazepam when withdrawing from other stronger or more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines. This switch allows you to tail off your benzodiazepine dosage smoothly and gradually and minimises withdrawal symptoms.

When making the switch it is important to do it gradually, replacing one dose at a time and at approximately weekly intervals and making allowance for the difference in potency. For example, if you are taking lorazepam 1mg three times daily, first change the night dose to 10mg diazepam. (This can be done in two stages if necessary e.g. lorazepam 0.5mg (half a 1mg tablet) plus diazepam 5mg; then drop the lorazepam and go on to diazepam 10mg). A week or two later change one of the day-time doses, and two weeks later change the other day-time dose.

Suggested schedules and information on relative potencies and elimination half-life are available in the Manual: "Benzodiazepines: How they work and how to withdraw".


http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashvtaper.htm
 
Soundmind said:
I think you have to ask Beachlover about that .


benzos are usually and normally given before propofol , midazolam certainly is not a way to wean someon off propofol , nor is lorazepam , not through an IV at least .

versed and lorazepam through an iv can cause carrdiac arrest , they are very similar to propofol , and using them as sleep aids was as absurd as using propofol , the only advantage over propofol there is actually a drug to counter their effect , flumazenil .
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Yeah, which is why Murray's story makes no sense. I also wonder how anyone can honestly believe that Michael was in his right mind after getting that cocktail, even before the propofol. Even if he was not asleep, I think he wouldn't even know what planet he was on, even with a high tolerance.

So, I cannot picture Michael begging for propofol at the end, or if he did he was not clear of mind enough to know what was going on. Which is why it would be a poor choice for Murray to give someone more drugs, even if they ask for it, when they are doped up.

Maybe Murray did not buy enough propofol so he tried to used other methods until he can get more. However, he didn't know what the heck he was dong and dope Michael to high heaven. Since he would of had a heck of a time explaining why Michael was so drug up, he decides to give him the propofol and hope he can sleep it off. He can then just say that Michael was resting for the day.

Sorry, I really cannot think of a logical reason for this cocktail of drugs.
 
Valium is an excellent muscle relaxer and yes it is addicting. Murray says he was trying to wean him off the Propofol. The Valium was stated as a 10mg tablet if I recall correctly. That by itself is pretty 'calming' and Michael was given a lot of stuff that night. He had to have a high tolerance to these drugs. Some people would sleep with only the Valium let alone the other drugs.

I guess to answer your question I'd have to say that Murray claimed to be weaning him off Propofol and not 'drugs'. This leads me to assume that Murray felt he was having to give too much Propofol and felt uncomfortable giving him that. I don't know if he gave Valium every night or just this night.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Yeah, which is why Murray's story makes no sense. I also wonder how anyone can honestly believe that Michael was in his right mind after getting that cocktail, even before the propofol. Even if he was not asleep, I think he wouldn't even know what planet he was on, even with a high tolerance.

So, I cannot picture Michael begging for propofol at the end, or if he did he was not clear of mind enough to know what was going on. Which is why it would be a poor choice for Murray to give someone more drugs, even if they ask for it, when they are doped up.

Maybe Murray did not buy enough propofol so he tried to used other methods until he can get more. However, he didn't know what the heck he was dong and dope Michael to high heaven. Since he would of had a heck of a time explaining why Michael was so drug up, he decides to give him the propofol and hope he can sleep it off. He can then just say that Michael was resting for the day.

Sorry, I really cannot think of a logical reason for this cocktail of drugs.
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But he had the antidote for those other drugs so giving him Propofol AFTER all of that hoping he can sleep it off is not logical.
 
Soundmind said:
Diazepam [Valium] is one of the most slowly eliminated benzodiazepines. It has a half-life of up to 200 hours, which means that the blood level for each dose falls by only one half in about 8.3 days. The only other benzodiazepines with similar half lives are chlordiazepoxide [Librium], flunitrazepam [Rohypnol] and flurazepam [Dalmane] all of which are converted to a diazepam metabolite in the body. The slow elimination of diazepam allows a smooth, gradual fall in blood level, allowing your body to adjust slowly to a decreasing concentration of the benzodiazepine. With more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepine e.g. lorazepam, (Ativan) (which has a half-life of 10-20 hours) the blood concentration drops rapidly and withdrawal symptoms can occur between doses, because your body has little time to adjust to low concentrations.

Diazepam comes in the smallest dosage levels of all benzodiazepines – 2mg tablets which can be halved to give 1mg doses. This means you can reduce in stages of 1mg every 1-4 weeks or more. It is difficult to obtain such low doses of other benzodiazepines. For example the lowest dose of lorazepam in the UK is 1mg, equivalent to 10mg of diazepam. (In the US 0.5mg lorazepam are available, but these are equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

Many other benzodiazepines are more potent than diazepam. For example lorazepam (Ativan) is 10 times stronger and it is difficult to reduce from this gradually. Temazepam [Restoril], though less potent than diazepam, has a shorter half-life and the smallest tablet is 10 mg (equivalent to 5mg diazepam).

Because of the slow elimination and small available dosage strengths of diazepam, it is often advisable to switch to diazepam when withdrawing from other stronger or more rapidly eliminated benzodiazepines. This switch allows you to tail off your benzodiazepine dosage smoothly and gradually and minimises withdrawal symptoms.

When making the switch it is important to do it gradually, replacing one dose at a time and at approximately weekly intervals and making allowance for the difference in potency. For example, if you are taking lorazepam 1mg three times daily, first change the night dose to 10mg diazepam. (This can be done in two stages if necessary e.g. lorazepam 0.5mg (half a 1mg tablet) plus diazepam 5mg; then drop the lorazepam and go on to diazepam 10mg). A week or two later change one of the day-time doses, and two weeks later change the other day-time dose.

Suggested schedules and information on relative potencies and elimination half-life are available in the Manual: "Benzodiazepines: How they work and how to withdraw".


http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashvtaper.htm
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Maybe I was wrong. From what I can understand, which isn't much to be honest, it seems Valium can be used to wean someone off of lorazepam, which was the drug that contributed to the propofol.

However, Murray never said he was addictive to lorazepam. Maybe he gave him the Valium after Michael died to make it look like he was trying to wean him off of lorazepam, before he told his propofol story. That would explain alot, actually.
 
Beachlover said:
But he had the antidote for those other drugs so giving him Propofol AFTER all of that hoping he can sleep it off is not logical.
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Which strangely, he never gave him because the antidote was never found in his body. He had the antidote, so why wasn't it used? Even if it was Propofol in his body, the antidote would of help somewhat, wouldn't it?

He also gave the Valium in liquid form. Michael had no tablets in his stomach. Even Murray admitted to given the Valium in an IV.
 
Some people would sleep with only the Valium let alone the other drugs.
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others would not . basically if indeed worked mj would not even bothered with propofol .

at this point , we have no idea whether murray even gave valium that night , the coroner detected it in mj's systme but that does no mean at all it was given to him that particular night .it could have been given a week before that night and it still would have been detected .

murray's story does not make any sense to me . clearly midazolam was purchased with the intent to be used before propofol , but why he decided to give lorazepam also .

you don't hook someone to an IV to give him lorazepam when you have lorazepam pills , another indication i gave him all these drugs to wean him off does not make sense .

the drugs detected true, we should wait for the amount and when exactly they were given .


Ramon, valium was a 10 mg tab , it was the only pill given that night .
 
Agree with soundmind, we gotta wait.. everything else is endless, speculation.
 
Soundmind said:
others would not . basically if indeed worked mj would not even bothered with propofol .

at this point , we have no idea whether murray even gave valium that night , the coroner detected it in mj's systme but that does no mean at all it was given to him that particular night .it could have been given a week before that night and it still would have been detected .

murray's story does not make any sense to me . clearly midazolam was purchased with the intent to be used before propofol , but why he decided to give lorazepam also .

you don't hook someone to an IV to give him lorazepam when you have lorazepam pills , another indication i gave him all these drugs to wean him off does not make sense .

the drugs detected true, we should wait for the amount and when exactly they were given .
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I thought Murray freely admitted to given valium on the night that Michael died. At least that was what was written on the police warrent. Murray's lawyer even said that the warrant was mostly correct except for the timeline, I think.
 
Soundmind said:
others would not . basically if indeed worked mj would not even bothered with propofol .

at this point , we have no idea whether murray even gave valium that night , the coroner detected it in mj's systme but that does no mean at all it was given to him that particular night .it could have been given a week before that night and it still would have been detected .

murray's story does not make any sense to me . clearly midazolam was purchased with the intent to be used before propofol , but why he decided to give lorazepam also .

you don't hook someone to an IV to give him lorazepam when you have lorazepam pills , another indication i gave him all these drugs to wean him off does not make sense .

the drugs detected true, we should wait for the amount and when exactly they were given .


Ramon, valium was a 10 mg tab , it was the only pill given that night .
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I thought it was all IV stuff. Sorry, I guess I got a little confuse at some point. Keeping up with some of this stuff is confusing.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Which strangely, he never gave him because the antidote was never found in his body. He had the antidote, so why wasn't it used? Even if it was Propofol in his body, the antidote would of help somewhat, wouldn't it?

He also gave the Valium in liquid form. Michael had no tablets in his stomach. Even Murray admitted to given the Valium in an IV.
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see that's why i said we have to wait for the exact amounts , and when each drug was given . murray's story i tried everything before i gave up and administer propofol , I dont buy that at all . he hooked mj to the IV at 2.00 am with the intent to give propofol . midazolam was given as planned before administering propofol . the coroner would have figured out what's the real deal behind the lorazepam and diazepam in his body .


I thought Murray freely admitted to given valium on the night that Michael died. At least that was what was written on the police warrent. Murray's lawyer even said that the warrant was mostly correct except for the timeline, I think.
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it is part of "I tried everything nothing worked because he was an addict, his tolerance was very high, did everything to avoid administering propofol, yet he insisted and look at me now ,my life is screwed up because of this junkie "

murray intention was never to wean him of any propofol , for God's sake he was not addicted to propofol , finding a proper way to sleep was the solution, all mj wanted was to sleep whether that could be accomplished by propofol, or a cup of milk . the point he needed to sleep . nothing more nothing less .

on the other hand , murray's would have lost the 150.000$ a month if he did not keep mj on propofol , introducing mj to a proper solution IF EXISTED would have resulted in murray's efforts being no longer needed , at least not efforts worth 150.000$ .
 
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Ramona122003 said:
Maybe I was wrong. From what I can understand, which isn't much to be honest, it seems Valium can be used to wean someone off of lorazepam, which was the drug that contributed to the propofol.

However, Murray never said he was addictive to lorazepam. Maybe he gave him the Valium after Michael died to make it look like he was trying to wean him off of lorazepam, before he told his propofol story. That would explain alot, actually.
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The Valium was a tablet, not an IV.
 
Just from todays news "PEOPLE"

Michael Jackson Doctor Investigation Will Go into 2010

It will be at least a couple of more months before authorities decide whether to arrest Dr. Conrad Murray, the personal physician who treated Michael Jackson before his death.

"A decision (on whether to prosecute) will be made in 2010. It is not going to be made this year," LAPD Commander Patrick Gannon tells PEOPLE.

Although Jackson's June 25 death was ruled a homicide by the county coroner, which found lethal levels of the toxic anesthetic propofol in his body, and Murray admitted to administering propofol at Jackson's bedside to help him sleep, authorities have to determine whether Murray was solely responsible, and to what extent any negligence can be considered criminal.

According to a search warrant unsealed Friday, Murray "said he was not the first doctor to introduce Jackson to propofol. ... Jackson referred to it as his 'milk,'" and Jackson had several doctors locally and abroad who gave him propofol.

Police are being careful, and consulting with other agencies including the state medical board and the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office, which will ultimately decide what charges to file, if any, Gannon says.

"We have taken our time with this to make sure it's done correctly," Gannon says.

Michael's sister, Janet Jackson, and other family members say they blame Murray for Jackson's death, but the doctor has consistently denied any wrongdoing.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20321918,00.html
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Which kinda goes along with what I have been saying. They are making sure all their ducks are in a row and it is not so easy to convict a physician when he was administering medication because thats what they do. It wasn't to an unwilling participant. So, clearly we all see that this guy didn't do what he should have, but what 'rules' did he really break?
 
MEDICAL MALPRACTICE:
Law. failure of a professional person, as a physician or lawyer, to render proper services through reprehensible ignorance or negligence or through criminal intent, esp. when injury or loss follows.

I hope some of you will take the time to CLICK ON THE LINK AND WATCH VIDEO of a lawyer and physician discuss the legal implication of medical malpractice:
The Michael Jackson Case: Do Doctors Get Away With Murder?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxVCvppI384
 
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