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L.A. County Coroner Findings

i posted this in the other thread....don't wanna retype! but but but...while the tapes from the cameras in his ROOM are missing, the others don't seem to be. so where aer teh tapes from his room?


ok lemme make it real simple...lol

to be found guilty u need two things....mens rea and actus reus.

actus reus refers to the actual act that is the crime.

mens rea means guilty mind.

now unless he was under duress at the time of the crime, which he wasn't, then he has no reason to state a defense. he wasn't afraid for his life or being threatened.

even if he were to have been acting recklessly or negligently, he killed someone. even if he did NOT intend for this to happen, his actions still show mens rea. that concept still applies.

if i wanted to slap thom but i end up slapping hari instead, im still guilty. even though i didn't intend to do that.

another example....if a mother leaves her baby in a hot car. she didn't intend for that to happen but it still did. so mens rea is still applicable.

u need those two things to prove guilt. his actions after the fact prove mens rea...he was guilty, he knew it, he tried to cover itup. his actions suggested that of a guilty man who panicked.

for the doc's lawyers to claim he'd been cooperating w/ police, it's funny access hollywood noted in the report that he was toldto stay at the hospital (ucla med) by the police. it was inhis best interest to stay and speak further w/ them. he did not and took off.
 
TheLastTear said:
Have you seen this article???!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Michael Jackson’s fatal heart attack was kept secret for three hours in a bid to cover-up the real cause of his death, it was claimed yesterday.
It is also believed the King of Pop’s dead body was then moved to his bedroom so police would think he killed himself with a fatal dose of the drug Propofol......"




http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news...ecret-claims-singer-s-friend-115875-21636485/
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hofflin is the source so kinda debatable
 
Well analysed Soso. I think however that there is something more to it. And the reason for that is this:

1. The timeline.

2. The reports of Michaels weight loss, and conversations with fans (as hard as it is for me to accept this, as i would have preffered to believe that Michael realy did want to do the concerts, and that he was not yet again tricked into something, and used).

3. The missing CCTV.

4. The taped phone conversation with the bodyguard, where its clear that Michael still is on the bed, and that CRP is not done correcly despite the fact that there is a medical professional in the house whose job is to know what to do in case of an emergency.

5. The fact that Michael did pass the medical tests done by an independent doctor paid by the insurance company (it would be easy to find out if he was on another payroll- just check if he had gotten some unexpected money in his account, or had some phone converations with someone suspicious).

6. Murrays behaviour after Michaels death, in total from the point he claims to have found him and till now.

7.The fact that this is so convinient. Just look at how this is treated by the media; just another drug overdose.

8. Murrays shady past. How could a company like AEG accept to pay someone a salary like that, and not sheck his past? And if they knew- how could the still hire him? If I wanted to rotect someone, I would have made shore his records were clean.

9. Michaels addmittance to having had addiction issues, and his known medical problems, and insomnia.

There are a lot more things I could list but what scares me is this thought:

What if Murray is treated as a scape goat? It would be possible maybe to switch some of the medication. Or to replace some of it with something of a stronger dosage. How were anyone to know? If Murray indeed treated Michael with propofol over a period of time, and this was known, what if someone replaced one of the bottles with the same type of medicine, just with a stronger % of the active ingridient? It wold have been fairly easy.
And then one could just sit back and wait for disaster to happen.

I may have been reading to many crime stories. But in my mind- this could easily have happened. I am not saying it is what happened. And I am sertainly not defending Murray. But it propably could have been done like that.
Ad what scares me is that this is not just some random pop star, this is a multi million brand who will continue to generate money, after his death. Only difference now, is that they do not have to bother with a real person anymore.

It would be the perfect way to do it. Because how could this be proven, if they did their job right?
 
There are a whole bunch of questions the DA should be and probably will be asking Murray.. I wld luv for the DA to ask him why he didn't sign the death certificate at the hospital.. He was Michael's doctor and therefore he was suppose to sign the death certificate, since he didn't the doctors at UCLA Med Center damn sure wasn't going to do that.. So that is when the coroner's office stepped in , because if the death certificate isn't sign by the person's personal doctor or the doctors at the hospital it is now on the coroner to do it, and of course they aren't going to sign unless they perform an autopsy.. Hell I am glad his dumb ass didn't sign it cuz it got the ball rolling as to how Michael actually died..
 
Ok, IF(!!!) Michael demanded propofol to get to sleep and was using al these othes benzo's too, then he was a real danger to himself.
A real good doctor would've let him be taken to a psychiatric hospital to be treaded for his insomnia and drugabuse instead of giving him al this crap at home.
 
people can call him suicidal, self-destructive, he did it himself and all that talk....the fact is that Murray stayed with Michael's lifeless body in the house for hours before calling anyone for help - that in itself is SCARY and CREEPY
I could tell from the ambulance photo that Michael had been dead for some time, I've seen dead people before and he didn't look like his normal self he looked bad really bad
 
TheLastTear said:
Have you seen this article???!!!!!!!!!!!!


"Michael Jackson’s fatal heart attack was kept secret for three hours in a bid to cover-up the real cause of his death, it was claimed yesterday.
It is also believed the King of Pop’s dead body was then moved to his bedroom so police would think he killed himself with a fatal dose of the drug Propofol......"




http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news...ecret-claims-singer-s-friend-115875-21636485/
Click to expand...

It is tabloid stuff, but I believe that it is very close to the truth and it's appalling and distressing. If this article is acurate, I hope 2nd degree murder is the verdict. It certainly warrants it
 
Who picked him up from the hospital? His vehicle was impounded at Michael's.

I understand propofol is not on the list of controlled substances, it may be legal to use in a home setting as nutty as that sounds. He may have bought it legally as he is a doctor, but not an anesthesiologist so he had no right to administer it to anyone...it is highly unethical for him to use it on Michael for inducing sleep as it is not a sleep aid and on top of all the others he gave him if leaked reports are to be believed.

I am concerned that the legalities will trump the ethical and moral questions of what he did, be his actions accidental or intentional...there are just too many inconsistencies in his story at least from what we know now for it to be unintentional imo. You don't make that many "mistakes" as a doctor without raising some eyebrows about your competency in how you treated your patient let alone motive. They've ruled it a "homicide" and the legal wrangling will begin after the investigation is complete...I just want the truth out...whatever it is. Someone knows.
 
I think many rich people actually use propofol for detox treatments! I think it isn't illegal to have if it isn't on the list I know it's crazy but this may change now
 
Its really strange why the doctor would sit for hours before calling for help. Just shows signs of someone feeling guilty that they had F**ked up big time.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
hofflin is the source so kinda debatable
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What I don't understand is this:

The LA Coroner said that Michael's death is attributed to acute propfol intoxication, and the other conditions contributing to death was Benzodiazepine effect, i.e. apnea/stopped breathing due to the lethal combo of propofol & benzo/Valium.

I can see how his body was moved if they are trying to wake him up or give him CPR, but Murray did CPR on the bed, so Michael was not moved to the floor.

Gosh, so many questions/mysteries.
 
Victoria83 said:
Right. And what would have revealed that, are those missing security tapes. Let's not forget about THAT. The tapes would also have shown if there was anyone in the house who shouldn't have been there. . .. . .
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This is what I'm foggy on. Has it actually been confirmed that there were surveillance cameras in the rooms of the house, and that tape from Michael's bedroom is missing? Because I've only heard about that on one entertainment show, and then nothing after that. I wasn't sure whether to believe it or regard it as tabloid talk.
 
i find it very hard to believe that mj would allow cameras to watch him24/7 . I don't believe there was any camera in his bedroom . what i'm talking about is the camera which showed who entered and left the house that night .
 
shimar said:
What I don't understand is this:

The LA Coroner said that Michael's death is attributed to acute propfol intoxication, and the other conditions contributing to death was Benzodiazepine effect, i.e. apnea/stopped breathing due to the lethal combo of propofol & benzo/Valium.

I can see how his body was moved if they are trying to wake him up or give him CPR, but Murray did CPR on the bed, so Michael was not moved to the floor.

Gosh, so many questions/mysteries.
Click to expand...

:scratch:As far as I know, Michael was moved to the floor. The 911 operator had to tell the bodyguard to tell Murray to move Michael to the floor. I'm sure she must have been shocked b/c I think the bodyguard told her that Michael's doctor was doing CPR on the bed.
 
how hoefflin is suggesting there was lividity in the body. meaning that he was dead much longer than the dr. states....when you've passed, and you're obviously immobile, the blood pools on the area facing the floor. if u passed and you are on your face on the floor, it pools to y our stomach. if you're on your back, it pools to your back

now the heat from the fire could've affected rigor but it wouldn't effect lividity.

this is just so damn disturbing and i wish we were talking about someone else and not mike
 
soso , the chief of the fire department said on CNN that although they tried everything possible to revive mj , they KNEW he was "FAR LONG GONE" .
 
mnj1985 said:
This is what I'm foggy on. Has it actually been confirmed that there were surveillance cameras in the rooms of the house, and that tape from Michael's bedroom is missing? Because I've only heard about that on one entertainment show, and then nothing after that. I wasn't sure whether to believe it or regard it as tabloid talk.
Click to expand...

This has never been confirmed. It was reported early-on, on CNN, that the security tapes for the MORNING of Michael's death were missing. Not erased, but GONE. I heard that reported several times, and then not mentioned again. I'm sure the tapes would have shown who came and went from the house, but not anything from Michael's private rooms.

The article about Michael's body being moved is from a TABLOID. Hoefflin was Michael's plastic surgeon many years ago, but I don't know if they had recent contact, or not. I'm not sure how he would be involved now, or know any "inside information?"

Also, I don't believe ANYTHING Murray has said. We don't even know for certain that Michael EVER used Propofol, and certainly not just because Murray says so! I think there may be some sort of connection between Murray and Nurse Lee, because in an early statement to police, Murray said he thought Cheryln Lee had been giving Michael Propofol. But the nurse said she didn't KNOW Murray. So many statements are contradictory, it's impossible to know which is the truth, and which is not.

Carry on,

Vic
 
These security tapes are a very important part of the puzzle and they are missing. The cops have to have found this extremely suspicious.

There is a lot of very important information that they are not letting out.

The actual time of death. and
The time frame that is missing from the security tapes.

I truly believe these two things coincide with each other.

Everything in me is screaming that this was an intentional murder and I very elaborate cover up is being staged.
 
victoria, are you saying that the tapes missing are those of that morning not that night ? because that night the records showed murray entering the house @1. a.m .

the tapes which show who entered and who left the house that night, that morning are very important

because i've a very strong feeling Murray did say he administered propofol to mj at 10.40a.m and not earlier because he did not want the police to question where was he before that time , with whom he talked on the phone and what was he doing , that's why he said mj was still alive when he called the 911 , so things before that time would not be linked to MJ's death . I mean the things he did that night, that morning would not look like they caused mj' death and then he tried to cover up .


as i said above if the LAPD and DA wanted Murray on manslaughter charges , they would have known they had a slam dunk case , but obviously the things they know make them believe this is much more than a manslaughter case .
 
I too think that there are a lot of info that we do not have, as its kept from the public due to ongoing investigation. At least I hope that some of the leaks are planned, to rattle some cages. While there is investigation going on to see if this was more then just Murray being an incompetent and recless doctor.
We will see what happens.
I am now wondering why Murray has not yet been charged/ arrested.
 
COOPER: All right, Randi, you've been working your sources who some new information tonight regarding the timeline and the scene when paramedics actually arrived at the house after that 911 call. What did they find?

KAYE: Well, this is some new information. I spoke with Captain Steve Ruda from the L.A. Fire Department. And he told me that Jackson was not breathing and had no pulse when paramedics arrived at the scene of his rented mansion. He said he was in, quote, "dire need of help."

Now, let me set the scene for you at the house and put some things in perspective here and show you a little bit of the time line of how this all occurred. We know that the 911 call came in at 12:22 in the afternoon on June 25th. Apparently it was not mentioned -- Michael Jackson was not mentioned that he was the victim there.

The call, we now know, lasted 32 seconds. it took paramedics four of them in all -- three minutes and 17 seconds to get to his house. Captain Ruda with the fire department told me that Mr. Jackson got what he called "the hallelujah package," which means he really got the works in this case. And at the house, Anderson, paramedics worked on Michael Jackson for 42 minutes.

COOPER: I've never heard that term, "the hallelujah package." Why did they work on him at the house for those 42 minutes? Why not just take him to the hospital right away? Was he not stable he couldn't be moved? KAYE: I wanted to know that same thing, actually, and he called it a scoop-and-run. That's when they pick up and transport right away. That did not happen in this case for a number of reasons, Anderson.

First of all, I'm told that Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's personal physician -- who we just heard a little bit more about from Ted there in Vegas -- he took responsibility at the scene, this fire captain told me. He was in charge. He was calling the shots. He decided and determined that it was best to work on him there for those 42 minutes and try and get him breathing at the scene.

Captain Ruda told me that when a patient is pulse-less and not breathing, there are many things of course that paramedics can do to try and get the heart beat again. They gave him oxygen, they gave him medicines that he would not name; nothing seemed to work.

But again, this is treatment that was prescribed at the scene, and that's why he wasn't transported. And in those 42 minutes, that's actually part of the "golden hour," I'm told. That's what paramedics call it. It's all the time they have to jump-start the blood pressure and get the heart going again.

The fire captain I've spoke with told me that if a patient is just too far gone, obviously, no matter how long they work on him, nothing is going to help.

COOPER: And how much time has to pass before a patient is simply too far gone?

KAYE: A patient, I'm told by this fire captain, can go without oxygen for about four to six minutes before severe brain damage sets in followed by death. I asked him if that's what happened in the case of Michael Jackson and the Captain Ruda told me, quote, "based on what paramedics saw at the scene, they tried every technique known in the field. Still, we know, he could not be saved."

In the end they loaded him into the ambulance at his rented mansion in Beverly Hills. It was about a two-mile drive or so from there to the UCLA Emergency Room. It took a little over four minutes and as we know now, that is where he died.

KAYE: All right, Randi.


see they saw things that made them believe he was FAR LONG GONE . we all know what were those things .MJ was dead for hours.
 
These security tapes are a very important part of the puzzle and they are missing. T
Click to expand...

that info came from the national enquirer. tapes of ppl arriving the night b4 are in the the hands of the police. ppl shouldnt be so quick to trust a tabloid source just cause it fits with their theory
 
He administered propofol at 10.40 a.m ( let's assume he is honet)

look at his phone records :

11:18 a.m till 11:49 a.m 32-minute call to his office in Las Vegas .

11:49 a.m till 11:51 a.m 3-minute call to another location in Las Vegas .

11:51 a.m till 12:02 p.m 11-minute call to Houston .

he went downstairs and screamed for prince at 12:05 or 12:10 according to Kai .

so he was constantly on the phone , he was all the time on the phone before he called 911 . how is he going to explain that he was on the phone all the time before calling for help.

and that's only portion of the phone records of that morning , they only cover the timeline he gave them , which means after 10.40 a.m . God knows how many and for how long he stayed on the phone before 10.40 am.


remember the two assistants in Houston removed the boxes from the storage at 9.20 am LA time . they removed them at that time God knows when they actually GOT THE CALL to remove them .
 
Oceangirl said:
victoria, are you saying that the tapes missing are those of that morning not that night ? because that night the records showed murray entering the house @1. a.m .

the tapes which show who entered and who left the house that night, that morning are very important

because i've a very strong feeling Murray did say he administered propofol to mj at 10.40a.m and not earlier because he did not want the police to question where was he before that time , with whom he talked on the phone and what was he doing , that's why he said mj was still alive when he called the 911 , so things before that time would not be linked to MJ's death . I mean the things he did that night, that morning would not look like they caused mj' death and then he tried to cover up .


as i said above if the LAPD and DA wanted Murray on manslaughter charges , they would have known they had a slam dunk case , but obviously the things they know make them believe this is much more than a manslaughter case .
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I DO remember hearing this on CNN, in the couple of days after Michael's death -- that the security tapes from that morning were missing. "Morning" could mean anything after one a.m.? But then media stopped mentioning the tapes. I found that strange, too. They didn't say the tapes had been "found," but just grew quiet on the subject. Sometimes police work WITH media, and it's possible that CNN was asked to "kill the story" in that it was a key piece of evidence. Don't know.

I think you're quite right, about Murray saying that he gave the propofol at 10:40 a.m., to conceal what he was doing before that. Giving propofol at that morning hour makes NO sense. Michael had a rehearsal to go to, at two! So yeah, Murray was covering up. Michael had probably been dead for HOURS.

What could those missing tapes show? They are calibrated as to time. They could show Murray leaving at 2 a.m. to go see his girlfriend, and then returning an hour later? They could show someone ELSE entering the house, or being let in to the house? If so, then WHO?

Does anyone else find it odd, that Tohme, who had been FIRED, would be right THERE for the hospital press-conference? Why? Who called him? And when. . . .
 
ok at his phone records :

11:18 a.m till 11:49 a.m 32-minute call to his office in Las Vegas .

11:49 a.m till 11:51 a.m 3-minute call to another location in Las Vegas .

11:51 a.m till 12:02 p.m 11-minute call to Houston .
Click to expand...

there was another call made around 12.10pm to amir that lasted one min.
 
oes anyone else find it odd, that Tohme, who had been FIRED, would be right THERE for the hospital press-conference? Why? Who called him? And when. . .
Click to expand...
yeah i do.

the only opton is we are all wrong about him he liked mj and went to the hospital when he heard the news and hung around!
 
victoria , ask the asshole jermaine why he called tohme ? no one killed mj but murray although the others are benefiting from his death like they benefited from exploiting him in his life , like jermaine for example .
 
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