L.A. County Coroner Findings

they're trying to make it look like it's his fault by saying he BEGGED for the drugs and he knowingly risked his life, but I'm sure it was the other way around and Michael trusted his doctors, all of them...that's the kind of person he was, he would put his life in your hands and trust you with all his heart :no: he didn't deserve this poor MJ
 
For all those people on TV talking about how Michael should have to shoulder some responsilbility, Michael paid the ultimate price for any blame he may have had in this. It's time for those who contributed to what happened to him to be held accountable. And they should not be eased off the hook just to "punish" a dead man.
 
they're trying to make it look like it's his fault by saying he BEGGED for the drugs and he knowingly risked his life, but I'm sure Michael trusted his doctors, all of them...that's the kind of person he was, he would put his life in your hands and trust you with all his heart :no: he didn't deserve this poor MJ

Yeah, I agree!
That's why I'm really scared that they're gonna say somethin' like, 'It was Mike's fault in the end' and then don't arrest Murray 'cause they don't see him as guilty maybe...
 
i defend Klien because the results says klien had nothing to do with it . the search warrants say klien only prescribed a drug to treat insomnia , nothing more nothing less . ,mj was visiting him for cosmetic things , he had a 50 concerts and he was concerend about his look .
I think what you don't understand is that the only thing announced today is the cause of death. They only told us what they wanted us to know for now. That is not to say that there weren't other things found in his system. It just didn't contribute to his death. Once again, we need to review the total autopsy and toxicity report to know what was all going on with MJ.
 
so what your telling me the media would be happy if that MF who calls himself a doctor go as a free man and treat other ppl and give them illegal drugs and if they die he just says Im sorry they "begged" for it hell no I would let that doctor near my worst enemy
 
How do you treat insomnia with a drug that Causes insomnia?

I posted this earlier...

Adverse effects

Adverse drug reactions (ADRs) are more common with systemic administration (e.g. injection or oral administration) compared to topical administration (e.g. nasal instillations). ADRs associated with ephedrine therapy include:[5]

The approved maximum daily dosage of ephedrine for use as a bronchodilator is 150 mg, as specified on the packaging of the bronchodilator and expectorant combination, Bronkaid, made by Bayer pharmaceuticals.[citation needed]
Overdose can lead to death, although the approved dose is not likely to cause severe reactions when used as directed.

Im sorry but no i do not think Michael is to blame. I think the doctors told him one thing and gave him another. remember the thread about half truths i started... This might be one of them.
 
Yeah, I agree!
That's why I'm really scared that they're gonna say somethin' like, 'It was Mike's fault in the end' and then don't arrest Murray 'cause they don't see him as guilty maybe...

Well any sane person will see that although Michael MAY have begged for the drug, it was up to Murray, the person that was supposed to be caring for Michael to administer the medication properly. The bottom line is that he killed Michael, albeit unintentionally, AND he was administering a drug that is only to be used in a hospital under proper supervision. Wether Michael asked for the drug or even if he had used it in this manner in the past SHOULD be irrelevant.

You better believe though that if Murray is arrested and if this goes to trial you can bet that this alleged "begging for the drug" and Michael's use of this method in the past WILL be what Murray's lawyers will try to use to get him off the hook.
 
Yeah, I agree!
That's why I'm really scared that they're gonna say somethin' like, 'It was Mike's fault in the end' and then don't arrest Murray 'cause they don't see him as guilty maybe...

That is my biggest fear.If this happened to someone like you or I he would of been behind bars long ago but because Michael was paying him they look at it in this twisted way.
I truely believe that Michael was nieve in all this,ok he probably liked the feeling propofol gave him in being able to switch of completely and have a really good rest but after all this was what it was prescribed to him for.If it was the only thing working for him well then I don't blame him for taking it.
As I said earlier if I went to my doctor and they recomended this I wouldn't querey it so why would Michael,after all he was paying him all this money he must of thought he was getting the best care.

Also if Michael was so keen on looking after his body ie having health shakes etc you wouldn't pump a load of stuff in your body if you knew it was going to harm you.

It also doesn't help with the fact that they know that Michael had problems before with prescription drugs this just adds to the "yeah he knew what he was doing" :cry:

I really don't know what the outcome to all this will be :cry: My stomach is churning :(
 
Ephedrine and epinephrine have TOTALLY DIFFERENT medical uses. This is REALLY important in this case that we don't get them confused with one another (because their names sound similar).

Ephedrine is not used in emergency situations as far as I know. It is a stimulant, appetite suppresant and decongestant. It is similar to pseudoephedrine which is used in cough and cold remedies. It is only taken in tablet form as far as I know. It is not often used in medicine now.

Epinephrine is another name for adrenaline. It is this that is found in Epipens and is used in emergencies to help the heart in cardiac arrest etc. It is given in injections not tablets so it has a v quick action.


How is this relevant here?

Well it does suppress the appetite, like Trish says, so could explain why MJ lost so much weight since Murray came on the scene. It is also a stimulant. This could have contributed significantly towards insomnia. Hence probably was a big reason why MJ couldn't sleep, and possibly his need for propofol in the first place.

Ephedrine is only in tablet form therefore I doubt it was given to MJ by mouth before he died as most if not all others were IV (maybe the diazepam was a tablet). Tablets take a long time to get into the system to work.

So now Murray needs to explain when and why and what dose of ephedine he prescribed to MJ. This is HUGE. I think Phen-Phen was found in Murrays office, this is phentermine and is from the same class of drugs as ephedrine.


Actually, I've been given Ephedrin, several times, in a hospital setting. I also have an "auto-injector" that I can use myself in case of emergencies. That is not illegal. It's called an "epi-pen." I have an allergy to bee-stings, and the Ephedrin counteracts the anaphylactic shock that is associated with that allergy. It is also used to stimulate the heart. It's entirely possible that the drug was used to try to restart Michael's heart. Or to make it appear so.

What would be important to know is, was this a one-time thing, or a regular occurance? It's commonly used in emergency situations of shock. A hair-analysis would probably show if this was habitual, or part of Murray's "efforts" to bring Michael back. The ephedrin is a type of adrenalin. "Ephedra" is a brand-name for an appetite suppressant. This might not be the same thing. IMHO>



Yes I have it too, but it's only given for anaphylactic shock and hospital settings. Now as far as weight and appetite suppressants, George Bush illlegalized the sale of it in 2005/2006 under the methamphetamine bill.

It is OBVIOUS that Michael had been on it for at least 6 weeks because it explains his lack of appetite and loss of weight. It wasn't used as a cover up in Michael's death, it was used over a 6 week period. Just look at his unexplained weight loss.

That's why a hair analysis is so important. It would reveal if Michael had been given the drug over a period of time, or if it was an emergency measure to restart his heart. The drug "Ephedra" is the appetite suppressant, and yeah, that's been banned. (Ephedra is a brand-name). I just wish there had been more information!

"Ephedra" is an oral appetite suppressant, and it's been taken off the market. Ephedrine is by injection, as in an Epi-pen that a person can carry and self-inject if necessary. And THEN get to a hospital asap. I've had several such emergencies, and I can tell you, it's NO picnic!

I expected this, and it's so depressing. I expected we'd be given next-to-nothing in terms of information. Too many questions still remain.
 
Michael should not be held responsible for anything unless if he took the medicine/drug on his own, since it was given to him by a certified doctor then he is not responsible for obtaining or taking the medication.
 
I agree. Sky news said the LAPD gave the case over to the D.A. and now it's up to the D.A. to charge. Beyond justice for Michael, I want justice for the man that Murray killed a few years ago due to his negligence. I also want this doctor off the streets because if he can kill Michael and this other person, lord knows who else he could kill. He must be charged.

And Kudos to Jerry Brown, California Attorney General for launching an investigation into Michael's death. :clapping:
i wanna know y they released this info BEFORE having the charges ready? cuz now he can flee
 
klien was involved...remember all the trips MJ took to see him! and all the medication he took out? and everybody here was yeahhhh..MJ is just a close friend with his doctor....well close friend my ass!


according to the results published today , the only meds found in mj's body were rescribed by Murray and no one but Murray , people were talking about mj being addcited to demerol and other painkillers and klien was the one injecting him with these drugs , obviously that WAS NOT TRUE .

the nurse LEE came and said I 'm only coming forward because i've got sick hearing people say he was addcit , because Michael was not addcit , she performed drug tests on him throughtout her employment which lasted four months from january till 19th of april and they always came back NEGATIVE . she delievered these tests to the LAPD.

Klien may have introduced mj to propofol BUT HE FOR SURE HAS NO DIRECT CONNECTION TO HIS DEATH .

he will go down for completely different matters, he was exposed for prescribing drugs for himself , no wonder he is very upset and claiming to be the parent , he knew they would figure that out . But again I'm sure klien did not give mj anything in the last months and YOU SHOULD PRAY THAT WAS THE CASE, else Murray will calim mj was doctor shopping .
 
How the hell can anyone in any shape or form say Mike was to blame.

Imagine the scenario, you go into your local doctors practice for an emercency appointment when in the chair you say you have insomnia, the doctor then goes hey here's a bottle of propofol inject that once a night and you will fine, "NEXT"

Wtf, no

he litteraly failed his profession and resposibility as a certified doctor

He should have helped Mike and pumping him full of this life taking liquid is not it.

Right, many many doctors failed MJ. they ignored the hippocratic oath, and then blame the patient?? the audacity of people really is shocking.
 
If Murrey had told Michael that the cocktail of drugs he had given him would almost certainly kill him Michael would not have taken them, let alone begged for them. Murrey had the medical knowledge, Michael didn't, and saying he begged is no excuse.

He gave Michael the fatal dose, did not monitor him, and did not have the means, or the desire to save him, if he had he would have called 911 immediately he found Michael not breathing, told them what he had given him, and Michael would have been recusitated. Murrey's actions killed him, Michael could probably have been saved if he had been properly monitored and treated.
 
but look here, it mentions both ephedrine and epinephrine in this article about spinal anaesthesia and cardiac arrest -

http://www.apsf.org/resource_center/.../04cardiac.htm

For patients with bradycardia ('heart slowness'/cardiac arrhythmia) during spinal anesthesia, the stepwise escalation of treatment of bradycardia with atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg) and if necessary epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) may be indicated. For cardiac arrest, full resuscitation doses of epinephrine and atropine, additional volume loading and transcutaneous pacing should all be considered. With the popularity of spinal anesthesia and the reported frequency of these arrests, the potential impact of these interventions on further improving the safety of spinal anesthesia could be substantial.

And it is in injection form

Ephedrine is usually administered as an injection at your doctor's office, hospital, or clinic. If you are using Ephedrine at home, carefully follow the injection procedures taught to you by your health care provider.
http://www.drugs.com/cdi/ephedrine.html

but then i come across things like this - f_kin scary and confusing. But then again - if it causes rapid heartbeats - couldn't it be used to try and restart the heart?

http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/ephedrine-connected-sudden-cardiac-death.html

Confused. Do we have a doctor on here?





Ephedrine and epinephrine have TOTALLY DIFFERENT medical uses. This is REALLY important in this case that we don't get them confused with one another (because their names sound similar).

Ephedrine is not used in emergency situations as far as I know. It is a stimulant, appetite suppresant and decongestant. It is similar to pseudoephedrine which is used in cough and cold remedies. It is only taken in tablet form as far as I know. It is not often used in medicine now.

Epinephrine is another name for adrenaline. It is this that is found in Epipens and is used in emergencies to help the heart in cardiac arrest etc. It is given in injections not tablets so it has a v quick action.


How is this relevant here?

Well it does suppress the appetite, like Trish says, so could explain why MJ lost so much weight since Murray came on the scene. It is also a stimulant. This could have contributed significantly towards insomnia. Hence probably was a big reason why MJ couldn't sleep, and possibly his need for propofol in the first place.

Ephedrine is only in tablet form therefore I doubt it was given to MJ by mouth before he died as most if not all others were IV (maybe the diazepam was a tablet). Tablets take a long time to get into the system to work.

So now Murray needs to explain when and why and what dose of ephedine he prescribed to MJ. This is HUGE. I think Phen-Phen was found in Murrays office, this is phentermine and is from the same class of drugs as ephedrine.
 
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...........this is sickening




There is no punishment on earth suitable enough for Murry.

Maybe just put him in a cement cell for the rest of his life. Have him face Michaels three children and confess what he did. Record it. Then have the tape replaying over and over all day for the rest of his life in the cell on a TV monitor. So he can never escape what he did, he will wake up to it, fall asleep to it, eat and be reminded of it. Forever he should feel the pain of what he did.
 
This is all just too much.....does Murray realize what he has done???? He has taken away a light....a beautiful light. Sorry folks I am feeling really sad right now.
 
At least we have something official at last from the Coroner. I'm so sad right now though. It just seems like such a waste, I mean if it weren't for Murray, MJ could still be with us. That's what I can't get over.

There is so much that needs to be investigated. I hope they are looking at everything Murray and Klein and any other Dr that recently prescribed for MJ.

I wonder what propofol blood level was found by the coroner. Could a 25mg dose even cause 'Acute Propofol Toxicity'?

I have found this good model The University of Florida's website. It is a Virtual Anaesthesia Machine model. I registered to use this. You can adjust certain parameters like weight of patient, IV bolus dose and IV infusion rate of propofol. http://vam.anest.ufl.edu/
This is just a generic model and doesn't take into account the individual patient's circumstances at all, eg what other drugs are in the system etc, but I guess it can be used for 'ball-park' indication of dose to blood level of propofol.
For a 25mg bolus IV propofol, and a patient weight of 60kg, the blood level it shows is towards the top of the range but not in the toxic range. This only lasts less than 10 mins then it quckly goes towards zero.

I hope the Coroners can work backwards from the blood levels and estimate the dose of propofol MJ received.
This is v important. I have a feeling that it was higher than 25mg.
Not forgetting the benzodiazepines would have negatively interacted with the propofol as well.
 
August 28, 2009 | 3:19 pm

California Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown, at the request of the Los Angeles Police Department, has joined the investigation into several doctors who treated singer Michael Jackson before his death.

Brown's investigators will work with the LAPD, Drug Enforcement Administration and the L.A. County coroner’s office in probing Jackson’s June 25 death, which the coroner has ruled was a homicide due to acute intoxication from the anesthetic propofol.


"Responding to a request from the LAPD, agents from my office will investigate several physicians whose names have come up in the course of the Michael Jackson death inquiry," Brown said. "This investigation is at its earliest stages, and no conclusions can be drawn at this point."

LAPD officials met with the attorney general's Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement and the DEA last week, Brown said. The LAPD will remain the primary agency in the investigation.

Brown's office maintains a prescription drug monitoring system, which is designed to identify and deter drug abuse and diversion through rapid tracking of controlled substances.

Updated 3:41 p.m.: In an interview with The Times, Brown declined to name the doctors or provide any additional details, only saying that it’s “not a large number” and that their names have all arisen in direct connection with Jackson.

In search warrants, police have cited Jackson’s use of pseudonyms, a practice that could prove problematic for his doctors, Brown said.

“You’re supposed to prescribe in the name of the patient,” Brown said. “We know the law says you’re not supposed to [use pseudonyms]....We want to monitor to make sure that there isn’t an abuse of drugs. Drugs are dangerous. They’re chemicals … they have impact and the impact can be lethal.”

Each prescription must be linked to a diagnosis of a medical problem, Brown said. “There are a number of rules on the ethical standards of how doctors should operate.”

Brown said it is too soon to say whether the doctors will face criminal charges or lesser administrative fines or penalties. ]

--Richard Winton and Kimi Yoshino

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009...on-doctors.html


see they are not a large number as media previously said . I got into an argument with Staingirl of kop discussion forum because she wanted everybody to believe that MJ was using 50 ALIASES TO GET DRUGS . she posted the lawsuit from the micky pharmacy , she GOT angry again because I said that the search warrants on Murray's office listed all the people around mj as people who he MAY HAVE USED as aliases not HAD used as aliases , ofcourse i was banned the very next day , though she claimed because of my harsh words against the "loving" jackson family .

My point is mj had illnesses , he had different doctors, not as many as people said before . they had been his doctors for long time . someone at some point introduced him to propofol , again if these doctors administered propofol in a medical facility or any where where a spacialist was present and precautions set by the manufacturor were followed then you better believe that THERE WAS NOTHING CRIMINAL ABOUT IT , even though administring propofol to get sleep is unheard of , it is not illegal under the above conditions .
 
the video he posted showed no remorse whatsoever. It is obvious to almost everyone that he was likely at error so he could at least show some remorse. But i guess his lawyers told him not to mention it
 
Can anyone say that ephedrine is DEFINITELY NOT used in an emergency situation to restart the heart? Because In the medical article I posted before it said ephedrine along with epinephrine and something else can be used during spinal anaesthesia if something goes wrong with the heart.

As does this :Brown et al. (29) reported three cardiac arrests during a period when 10,080 spinal anesthetics were performed "without an episode of cardiac arrest resulting in neurologic injury." This was attributed to vigilance and their "willingness to utilize IV atropine (0.4–0.6 mg), ephedrine (25–50 mg), and epinephrine (0.2–0.3 mg) in stepwise escalation of therapy when bradycardia ('heart slowness') develops following spinal anesthesia." Similarly, Geffin and Shapiro (3) reported full recovery in all 12 patients treated for bradycardia or asystole after spinal anesthesia. This treatment included atropine for 11 of the 12 cases. It was typically used in combination with a vasopressor (ephedrine, epinephrine, or phenylephrine) (3). Aggressive vagolytic treatment with atropine and ephedrine were also used in the five successful resuscitations reported by Lovstad et al. (27). Taken together, this represents 20 successful resuscitations in settings where atropine is typically used as the first-line therapy.

But now I found this -


http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/06...ath-tracking-causes-of-sudden-cardiac-arrest/

  • June 26, 2009, 1:59 PM ET
After Jackson’s Death, Tracking Causes of Sudden Cardiac Arrest

By Shirley S. Wang

jackson_D_20090626114618.jpg
Bloomberg News
Michael Jackson CDs for sale in Tokyo


Pop star Michael Jackson’s passing is another reminder about how sudden and unexpected cardiac arrest — the believed cause of Jackson’s death at age 50 — can be. About 300,000 Americans die of sudden cardiac arrest outside the hospital each year, according to the American Heart Association.

Around this time last year, Tim Russert, the host of TV’s “Meet the Press,” died from a heart attack at age 58. But heart attacks aren’t synonymous with sudden cardiac arrest; they are but one trigger, according to Forbes.com.

In fact, most sudden cardiac deaths aren’t caused by clogged arteries, but instead by cardiac arrest, or a disruption in the heart’s electrical rhythm, which causes a trembling of the heart ventricles rather than a normal contraction. The arrhythmia limits the amount of blood that circulates and death can occur if the condition continues for more than a few minutes.
Some 95% of those with sudden cardiac arrest die, according to the National Heart Lung and Blood Institute. The heart can be potentially be restarted with a defibrillator if action is taken quickly, according to NHLBI. Reuters also has a Q&A on cardiac arrest and here is a 2004 WSJ interactive graphic with info on cardiac arrest and defibrillators.

Individuals with damage to their hearts are at particular risk for sudden cardiac arrest. The causes of the damage could be past heart attacks, genetic factors or substances such as cocaine and ephedrine, which is sometimes found in weight-loss supplements, according to Bruce Lindsay, past president of the Heart Rhythm Society and current head for Cardiac Electrophysiology and Pacing at the Cleveland Clinic.

The best way to identify people at risk is to measure their “ejection fraction,” the amount of blood squeezed out with each heart beat, Lindsay told the Health Blog. Normally the figure in in the range of 60% to 70%, but in people with heart damage, it could be as low as 30%.

Warning signs for heart disease include shortness of breath or chest pain, and people suffering from these symptoms should see their doctors, said Lindsay. “These are things that are, in part, preventable,” he said. “If we recognize them and treat them we can save lives.”

The Los Angeles coroner’s office is conducting an autopsy of Jackson, but results won’t be final for a while as toxicology tests are completed. An office representative told the Health Blog that the coroner plans to issue an update later this afternoon.
 
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they recovered records from Klien's office with the name of Omar Arnolds on the file, inside they found out MJ was listed as the patient , TMZ went crazy about it and then they admitted it was perfectly legal . the investigators recovered files from Dr.Abrams also with the name Omar Arnolds on the file, the same for Murray they recovered a CD with the name Omar Arnolds . all the aliases recovered were different forms of mj's name and Omar arnolds . so nothing really illegal about it
 
This is all just too much.....does Murray realize what he has done???? He has taken away a light....a beautiful light. Sorry folks I am feeling really sad right now.

I really don't think he knows or he just don't give a f*ck. If he did he would turn his self in.

I feel you 100%. It's like this amazing spirit left the earth. I can't explain it, but is like the world is so much darker now. I don't know it's hard for me to explain. All I know is it hurts like h*ll and Murray needs to know what he has done isn't something to take you can take lightly and say it was a damn accident.

Damn why did he do this, I can't understand it. I feel like am in a nightmare and I can't wake up. I just don't get it.

Why, why, why. O lawd I have never felt anything like this in my life. It's all so overwhelming.
 
but look here, it mentions both ephedrine and epinephrine in this article about spinal anaesthesia and cardiac arrest -

http://www.apsf.org/resource_center/.../04cardiac.htm

For patients with bradycardia ('heart slowness'/cardiac arrhythmia) during spinal anesthesia, the stepwise escalation of treatment of bradycardia with atropine (0.4-0.6 mg), ephedrine (25-50 mg) and if necessary epinephrine (0.2-0.3 mg) may be indicated. For cardiac arrest, full resuscitation doses of epinephrine and atropine, additional volume loading and transcutaneous pacing should all be considered. With the popularity of spinal anesthesia and the reported frequency of these arrests, the potential impact of these interventions on further improving the safety of spinal anesthesia could be substantial.

And it is in injection form

Ephedrine is usually administered as an injection at your doctor's office, hospital, or clinic. If you are using Ephedrine at home, carefully follow the injection procedures taught to you by your health care provider.
http://www.drugs.com/cdi/ephedrine.html

but then i come across things like this - f_kin scary and confusing. But then again - if it causes rapid heartbeats - couldn't it be used to try and restart the heart?

http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/ephedrine-connected-sudden-cardiac-death.html

Confused. Do we have a doctor on here?



Interesting Rockin. I'm still not sure if ephedrine is used in emergencies. I used to be a pharmacist until a couple of years ago and I've only ever seen / heard of ephedrine in tablet form not IV. I'm not sure if the spinal anaesthesia article is a reflection of the routine protocols used in Accident & Emergency / ER situations or by Anaesthesiologists. Does anyone know the answer? I'll keep looking to try and find an answer.
 
Just checked in a BNF (British National Formulary) and IV Ephedrine can be used for reversal of spinal or epidural anaesthesia.

But is this relevant in MJ's case? I don't think spinal / epidural anaesthesia is a reason for injecting ephedrine here. Propofol was general anasethetic not spinal.

So we need to know the reason for ephedrine in the blood-tablets or given as an injection?
 
There isn't anything Murray can say to make us not think he didn't kill Michael..

*sidenote* BET is showing some MJ footage all wkend long. The one on now is just clips of him around the world, nothing negative
 
I want all doctors-killers to be arrested tomorrow on Michael’s birthday. Oh, God please make my dream to become the truth.
 
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