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L.A. County Coroner Findings

Metalfish2 said:
I dont know. I think Murray is inocent until proven guilty. Just like Michael was.
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i hate it when people use MJ is this way to make their point. it is offensive to me. in the two extortion attempts there was NEVER any evidence or an admission by MJ of wrong doing.

so with that said.....

FACT____murray admitted to giving MJ profofol....
FACT____coroner has published part of the findings that profofol is the cause of death.....

what more proof does one need?
 
Although this information has been out for weeks it still pains me to hear it.

Murrey should be charged with murder, you don't have to be a doctor to know that putting all of those drugs into someone over a matter of hours is putting their life in serious danger, and he had no means of dealing with the almost inevitable consequences. I wonder if Michael realised just what he was being given, I mean would any one really let someone do that to you, especially with three young children in the house. I just wonder how much Michael consented to, he must have been pretty sedated and disorientated by the time he got the propofol he could not have been thinking straight.
 
And if his health was that bad, he wouldn't have passed numerous drugs test. Even AEG could cancel the concerts when they realised the state he was in.

He wasnt in a state! He didnt need anything other than help for amnesia! This doc doesnt know jack.
 
Trish said:
That is good news. It means that the LAPD feels that their case is solid enough to be presented to the D.A. Now it is up to the D.A. to charge Murray, hopefully with Murder in the 2nd degree - and in California you do not have to have motive to be charged with Murder in the 2nd degree. You just have to prove implied or expressed malice and consciousness of guilt.
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Wasn't that stated in one of the warrants.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Michael was not drug addict. No dope found in his system, yes?
So what all those things Karen and some insiders had said about him being high? Karen said he had problems with drugs and everyone around him new it. Some fans said they were joking about Michael whether he was high or not when they met him .... What about his erratic behaviour?
So any ideas WTF is happening?
 
Rockin. said:
Yeh but for malice there has to be 'intent to harm' .. is this not basically the same as 'motive'

edit: found this

Malice does require an 'intent to harm'. its not exactly the same as motive

The law technically distinguishes between motive and intent. "Intent" in criminal law is synonymous with mens rea, which means no more than the specific mental purpose to perform a deed that is forbidden by a criminal statute, or the reckless disregard of whether the law will be violated.[citation needed] "Motive" describes instead the reasons in the accused's background and station in life that are supposed to have induced the crime.
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By this definition, doesnt Murray fall into this category? It may have not been intentional but there was certainly intent to perform a deed that is forbidden. He knew he was breaking the law when he used Propofol in Michael's home. How easily can a person be bought? Once money enters the picture all common sense goes out the drain.

Happy Birthday MJ! RIP I hope you are having the party of your life in heaven!
 
Just checking the swedish papers and they do have "Jacksons death was murder" as healines at the moment atleast....
 
He isn't innocent. Maybe he is innocent of the legal definition of murder. But he did a lot wrong that killed Michael.

Metalfish2 said:
I dont know. I think Murray is inocent until proven guilty. Just like Michael was.
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Starlight said:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Michael was not drug addict. No dope found in his system, yes?
So what all those things Karen and some insiders had said about him being high? Karen said he had problems with drugs and everyone around him new it. Some fans said they were joking about Michael whether he was high or not when they met him ....
So any ideas WTF is happening?
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It seems that no narcotics were found in his system, which means opiates (prescription pain-killers) such as Meperedine, or Demerol. But technically, the medications found in his system WERE drugs, of a valium type. Anti-anxiety medications and possibly for relaxation for sleep.

In the past Michael had problems with addiction to narcotics, but not, apparently, at the time of his death. I don't know if Karen Faye said he was having problems with narcotics. If she said that, she has now been proven wrong.
 
hilliver said:
Although this information has been out for weeks it still pains me to hear it.

Murrey should be charged with murder, you don't have to be a doctor to know that putting all of those drugs into someone over a matter of hours is putting their life in serious danger, and he had no means of dealing with the almost inevitable consequences. I wonder if Michael realised just what he was being given, I mean would any one really let someone do that to you, especially with three young children in the house. I just wonder how much Michael consented to, he must have been pretty sedated and disorientated by the time he got the propofol he could not have been thinking straight.
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Me too, I think I could maybe just about start to come to terms with this had there never been a doctor Murray and Michael just passed away peacefully in his sleep, no mention or drugs, nothing.

Instead, we have official word that someone else caused Michael to die. Michael is the only person who can put to bed all the questions and fears we have. We will never know.:no:
 
Starlight said:
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Michael was not drug addict. No dope found in his system, yes?
So what all those things Karen and some insiders had said about him being high? Karen said he had problems with drugs and everyone around him new it. Some fans said they were joking about Michael whether he was high or not when they met him .... What about his erratic behaviour?
So any ideas WTF is happening?
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I have seen nothing in what was released today that says either way?
 
shimar said:
TRUST ME, Michael's spirit is everywhere.

He's like Santa Claus, except Michael is REAL.

He wants justice and he wants us to keep loving him in death and we did in life.

Because what he gave us will forever be a part of me, as what we gave him, will be his as well.

We're Takin' Over
We Have The Truth
This Is The Mission
To See It Through

Don't Point Your Finger
Not Dangerous
This Is Our Planet
You're One Of Us

We're Sendin' Out
A Major Love
And This Is Our
Message To You
(Message To You)
The Planets Are Linin' Up
We're Bringin' Brighter Days
They're All In Line
Waitin' For You
Can't You See . . .?
You're Just Another Part Of Me . .
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That's right.
 
Can someone read this -

It is no surprise that such a combination of medications could kill someone, said Dr. David Zvara, anesthesia chairman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
“All those drugs act in synergy with each other,“ Zvara said. Adding propofol on top of the other sedatives could have “tipped the balance” by depressing Jackson’s breathing and ultimately stopping his heart.


The 25 milligrams of propofol “is not a whopping amount,“ said Lee Cantrell, director of the San Diego division of the California Poison Control System. It was the cocktail of the other sedatives, known as benzodiazepines, that “may have been the trigger that pushed him over the edge,“ Cantrell said.


“This is horrible polypharmacy,“ he said, referring to the interaction among the various drugs. “No one will treat an insomniac like this.“
The affidavit, signed by a judge July 20, said that the coroner’s office chief medical examiner told police his review of preliminary toxicology results showed “lethal levels of propofol.“
Besides the propofol and two sedatives, the coroner’s toxicology report found other substances in Jackson’s system but they were not believed to have been a factor in the singer’s death, the official told the AP.


Murray didn’t tell paramedics or doctors at the UCLA hospital where Jackson was rushed about any drugs he administered other than lorazepam and flumazenil, a “rescue drug” to counteract problems from too much lorazepam, according to the affidavit.


It was only during a subsequent interview with Los Angeles Police detectives that Murray gave a more full accounting of the events leading up to the 911 call, the document said.


A call to the coroner’s office was not returned Monday. A spokeswoman for the Los Angeles District Attorney’s said no case had been presented so the office had nothing to comment on.


The line between safe and dangerous doses of propofol is thin, and according to the drug’s guidelines a trained professional must always stay bedside. Home use of propofol is virtually unheard of - safe administration requires both a specially trained anesthesiologist and an array of lifesaving equipment. Murray was trained as a heart doctor, not a pain and sedation specialist.

Murray told investigators he didn’t order or buy any propofol, but investigators served a search warrant Aug. 11 at a Las Vegas pharmacy and uncovered evidence showing Murray legally purchased from the store the propofol he gave Jackson on the day he died.


Jackson’s family released a statement Monday, saying it has “full confidence” in the legal process and the efforts of investigators. It concludes: “The family looks forward to the day that justice can be served.“
 
elusive moonwalker said:
that cali law that geragos mentioned u didnt need malice etc just a very high level of negligence
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Murder: Second degree

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.




Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI).

see the difference between the two , obviosly adminstring propofol without being a specialist and without following the precautions set by the manufacturor is not a misdeamenor when the drug used has ZERO MARGIN OF ERROR.
 
Oceangirl said:
Murder: Second degree

Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.




Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI).

see the difference between the two , obviosly adminstring propofol without being a specialist and without following the precautions set by the manufacturor is not a misdeamenor when the drug used has ZERO MARGIN OF ERROR.
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Thanks. Any idea what the penalties for these are in California?
 
Rockin. said:
Yeh but for malice there has to be 'intent to harm' .. is this not basically the same as 'motive'
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There was an intent to harm.... Providing Propofol and Ephedrine to a patient without cause. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance without a license. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance (anesthesia) in a home setting. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient without proper training. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient (anesthesia) without an anesthesiologist. A killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Last but not least, a wanton and reckless disregard for human life that surpasses negligence. Lest not forget a consciousness of guilt (cleaning crime scene, popping up the fireplace in the middle of summer, lying to the police about phone calls, waiting 45min to an hour to call 911). I agree with Mark Geragos on this one, there is enough for implied malice thus a Murder 2 charge.
 
Whoever issued Murray with a medical licence needs their head tested. How many mistakes can one doctor make?
 
Trish said:
There was an intent to harm.... Providing Propofol and Ephedrine to a patient without cause. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance without a license. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance (anesthesia) in a home setting. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient without proper training. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient (anesthesia) without an anesthesiologist. A killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Last but not least, a wanton and reckless disregard for human life that surpasses negligence. Lest not forget a consciousness of guilt (cleaning crime scene, popping up the fireplace in the middle of summer, lying to the police about phone calls, waiting 45min to an hour to call 911). I agree with Mark Geragos on this one, there is enough for implied malice thus a Murder 2 charge.
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Yes. Yes. Yes.

2nd degree is a great start, but this was first degree murder(premeditated)
 
Rockin. said:
Can someone read this -


Jackson’s family released a statement Monday, saying it has “full confidence” in the legal process and the efforts of investigators. It concludes: “The family looks forward to the day that justice can be served.“
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we're praying for that too!
 
That shows he definitely harmed..yes. But Im wondering how do you prove intent to harm in court? That he intended to harm MJ?

And the ephedrine, that has only been mentioned now, its often used, (as i posted from that medical journal before), to try and save a person when the heart gets into trouble under anaesthesia - so that is a cause.. a good cause..no?

Murray is being arrested right now yeh?

Trish said:
There was an intent to harm.... Providing Propofol and Ephedrine to a patient without cause. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance without a license. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance (anesthesia) in a home setting. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient without proper training. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient (anesthesia) without an anesthesiologist. A killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Last but not least, a wanton and reckless disregard for human life that surpasses negligence. Lest not forget a consciousness of guilt (cleaning crime scene, popping up the fireplace in the middle of summer, lying to the police about phone calls, waiting 45min to an hour to call 911). I agree with Mark Geragos on this one, there is enough for implied malice thus a Murder 2 charge.
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no arnie is goin g down because he was prescribing drugs for himself , mj had nothing to do with it , they discovered that by investigating mj's death , klien prescribed only one drug to mj which was also to treat insomnia , no painkiller . Arnie is really off the HOOK regarding mj's death . nothing in mj's system but what Murray admitted he gave him and it was Murray's decision to give him these drugs . respect you obviously OWE MJ AN APPOLOGY .
 
Green_Bean said:
Good.......That guy is on the crazy train for real
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You know, I blame him even more than Murray! Murray gave the lost shot, but it was Klein who got Michael into this whole mess with drugs in the first place!
 
Trish said:
There was an intent to harm.... Providing Propofol and Ephedrine to a patient without cause. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance without a license. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance (anesthesia) in a home setting. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient without proper training. Providing a controlled pharmaceutical substance to a patient (anesthesia) without an anesthesiologist. A killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Last but not least, a wanton and reckless disregard for human life that surpasses negligence. Lest not forget a consciousness of guilt (cleaning crime scene, popping up the fireplace in the middle of summer, lying to the police about phone calls, waiting 45min to an hour to call 911). I agree with Mark Geragos on this one, there is enough for implied malice thus a Murder 2 charge.
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Horrible. Of these, I think what's pivotal is the obvious consciousness of guilt. The call to have the storage locker cleaned out. The phone calls to. . whoever. Turning up the fireplaces. Refusing to let EMTs call time of death, when it must have been obvious. Requiring that they continue CPR in the ambulance, when Michael was clearly already gone. Refusing to sign as physician of record in Michael's death. Vanishing from the hospital, and vanishing altogether to the point where he abandoned his CAR. The lies about the time-line. Quite a scramble to cover his tracks. . . . .

Yeah, I think it'll be "murder 2." How did we ever GET to this point, anyway? When he's charged and is looking at fifteen years to life, I hope he sings like a canary.
 
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