I think the family is giving Murray his defense

[indranee]

murray was mj's doctor since january 2006 . way before propofol . he did not search for anyone , murray was there , when he was asked he said yes .

yes, but Mike obviously knew he couldn't go back to Ratner, and that Murray was the one with shady ethics. Mike knew what he was doing, he just didn't know Murray was unethical AND stupid. he told Paris that Murray was the best cardiologist in the world. I have a feeling Mike really believed that.

 

[MJ1814]

:sigh:

Even if he uses the unsuccessful interventions as a defense, no doctor would willingly continue to give a patient medication if they know it can potentially be fatal.

 

[Soundmind]

I didn't think he was even licensed to practice medicine in California.

true, he was not allowed to practice , administer or prescribe anything in California . add more charges to the list and more years in prison

 

[terrell]

Dr. Murray did not have the proper equipment to monitor Michael Jackson while under Diprivan.

Dr. Murray is not supposed to administer this anesthesia in a home setting.

Dr. Murray is not a licensed anesthesiologist.

Dr. Murray broke the Hippocratic Oath


Dr. Murray disregarded his patients life by doing the above. It does not matter if Michael had a dependence problem or not - Dr. Murray is responsible for Michael Jackson's death.

We don't have to know Michael Jackson's part in all of this. He could have been as clean as a whistle, or he could have been drugged up and out of his mind - that does NOT matter. What matters is we have a rogue doctor that would do ANYTHING for the right amount of money. These doctors that have God like complexes must be stopped from practicing medicine because they are killing people left and right. The moment MJ came up to this doctor and said "I need Diprivan to sleep" Dr. Murray should have said NO.



So we blame the rape victim for being raped? Just because she wore a revealing dress to a club and some crazed man forces himself on her? Do we question what she "did or did not do?" Even if I told this woman that wearing that dress is inappropriate does not mean that a man should rape her.

Please don't blame a victim of a crime. Does MJ bear any responsibility? Sure, because he knew the risk of it all. Michael was so desperate to sleep that he risked his life for it. But it is up to his physician to tell him NO and offer tried and true treatments or refer Michael to a specialist.

And this SUMS IT ALL UP. CASE CLOSE.:clapping:

 

[BillieJean84]

& the jury: I have a feeling that the jury will consider the fact about MJ's 1. past drug use 2. the rehab 3. the interventions. - which all is not so fair anyway though.

 

[LauraLovesMJ]

Beachlover, you are simply saying that patients can intimidate doctors into giving pain medication or they can push a nurse into calling the doc in the middle of the night. NO doctor worth his salt is going to allow a patient to intimidate them into going against their ethics. PERIOD.

What you've done in this thread is come dangerously close to blaming MICHAEL for Murray's negligence and unethical practices. That just doesn't cut it if you and your "professional" friends want to be considered professionals.

 

[Beachlover]

okay, I understand what you're trying to say there. it's hard to refuse treatment to patients in dire need of it via the quickie painkiller or the sedative. but you can't compare a hospital setting to what happened here. Dr. Murray not only did what HE did for money (150K a month -- my understanding is that he originally wanted a million but was talked down)... he did it in the most haphazard, sneaky, criminally negligent and UNCARING way possible.

Michael was his friend? I think not. I know I'd never treat my friend this way.

he deserves to rot in jail forever.

I was not 'comparing'. We were having a discussion regarding drugs and thats how this came about. I never once said what Murray did is right and never said this man was a friend of Michael.

I don't really know how many other physicians Michael asked for this medication. I heard Nurse Lee saying that Michael was asking for a doctor to do this for him at one point, so I have no idea who he asked and who said no before. Only Michael knows who he asked and maybe someone else but they aren't talking.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

If Murray didn't have a license to practice in California, shouldn't the authorities be going after him for that too? Especially with what happened to Michael?

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, you are simply saying that patients can intimidate doctors into giving pain medication or they can push a nurse into calling the doc in the middle of the night. NO doctor worth his salt is going to allow a patient to intimidate them into going against their ethics. PERIOD.

What you've done in this thread is come dangerously close to blaming MICHAEL for Murray's negligence and unethical practices. That just doesn't cut it if you and your "professional" friends want to be considered professionals.

Obviously you don't work in the medical field.

Obviously you have not read everything I have written. I never said Murray was not responsible in any way.

You are allowing your personal feelings to come forward here and I am pointing out things from my experience to paint the picture of how things really are. This is reality. This is the real world and how it works.

Again, what do you tell someone who says they are really in pain? NO? Is that humane?

 

[indranee]

well, all we know is he asked Nurse Lee and Deepak Chopra. did he ask Klien too? I don't know. but my point is you cannot blame the victim here. that is why the medical core of ethics is in stone and doctors can and do go to jail for violating certain core tenets. Murray's flagrant violation in this case deserves much, much more than a slap on the wrist.

Janet's... and the family's... problem is that they're looking at things from their POV, not Mike's. if they were intent on getting their brother his proper justice, they'd shut up.

just my opinion.

 

[LauraLovesMJ]

it doesn't matter. obviously MJ was searching for someone who would do what he wanted. but we are talking about a defense. Murray has none when it comes to what HE did.

EXACTLY. I don't dispute that Michael was doctor shopping to get what he wanted. What I find outrageous is that he actually FOUND an unethical doctor who would give him something so dangerous just because MJ wanted it. Therein lies the problem.

I agree with you that Murray has NO defense for what he did. NONE.

 

[Ramona122003]

have anyone of you read the court documents , probably no , because you would never quote TMZ if you ever read them


sneddon in his motion to admit evidence of drug abuse did not mention any drug found in mj's name AT ALL recovered from the ranch.

they found ONE half empty Demerol bottle somewhere but it was outside the main residence , he mentioned the letter from the Miami doctor about detox programs as an evidence that particular Demerol bottle belonged to MJ , he should have tested it for finger prints if he indeed believed it belonged to mj . that was the ONLY Demerol bottle found in never land .


they found in the library an empty bottle in peter midani's name prescribed by klien , i think it was xanax . peter midani had something to do with Grace , he's linked to grace .

they found another empty bottle of Percocet, with Manuel Rivera's name , Rivera was an employee at neverland still sneddon claimed in his motion this drug was for mj because mj had a dependency on painkillers ACCORDING TO MEDIA REPORTS , that what he said .


they found a prescription of xanax prescribed by Klien for Frank Tyson .

they also found another prescriptions in another name for Prednisone prescribed for Frank .


that was what listed by sneddon , NOTHING MORE .

yeah they also found marijuana and xtacy in a jar in the kitchen but sneddon did not include them in his motion, they obviously did not belong to mj .

but everything associated with Grace who herslef suffered from lupus and Frank who God knows whether he was himself hooked on Xanax like many people , everything associated with these two sneddon considered prescribed for MJ .
No versed was found at the ranch . and certainly no PROPOFOL .

Soundmind I love you,

This was the list I was talking about. I saw the warrant list once, although I cannot think where the heck I saw it, and I did not remember any sleep medication mention. Only pain medication that Sneddon tried to link on Michael. I knew I was not losing my mind.

I think I saw the real list on the achieves on this site for 2005 before they close it. They really need to bring it back, btw. If half that list was true from TMZ, they would had a field pay painting Michael as a out of control drug addict. They tried to make him an alcoholic for goodness sake during that trail.

Can you please the official list on this sight? It would really help for everyone to see also. Also, where the heck did TMZ find this list at anyway?

 

[indranee]

please, TMZ? I'll believe anything they say after I literally die for it. it's one of the reasons I didn't believe MJ was gone until deep into that evening.

sigh.

 

[Beachlover]

Soundmind I love you,

This was the list I was talking about. I saw the warrant list once, although I cannot think where the heck I saw it, and I did not remember any sleep medication mention. Only pain medication that Sneddon tried to link on Michael. I knew I was not losing my mind.

I think I saw the real list on the achieves on this site for 2005 before they close it. They really need to bring it back, btw. If half that list was true from TMZ, they would had a field pay painting Michael as a out of control drug addict. They tried to make him an alcoholic for goodness sake during that trail.

Can you please the official list on this sight? It would really help for everyone to see also. Also, where the heck did TMZ find this list at anyway?

THe pictures and the list are on the TMZ sight. Look up Neverland Raid photos or Neverland DRUG photos. I posted the link elsewhere.

 

[LauraLovesMJ]

Obviously you don't work in the medical field.

You could not PAY me enough to work in the medical field, so don't act as if it's something "high and mighty". To many of us IT ISN'T. I can't tell you how unimpressed I am with many, many, many in that field. I am sickened at some of the "quality" I see coming out of nursing schools these days. There is a shortage of nurses, so they aren't terribly picky these days.

Obviously you have not read everything I have written. I never said Murray was not responsible in any way.

I've read enough of it to see you trying to shift blame to Michael and say that it isn't always appropriate to blame the doctor. In this case, IT IS, so going on about how "difficult" it is for doctors to refuse drugs to patients is a bit inappropriate here.

Again, what do you tell someone who says they are really in pain? NO? Is that humane?

I am talking about PROPOFOL. That isn't administered for PAIN. WTH do you keep returning to that when administering propofol in a private residence is the issue?

 

[Ramona122003]

i don't agree with that. some people want to label 'drug addict till you die' some don't. so..i don't think everybody should be labeled something, just because some psychaiatrist, or somebody said so. people have different beliefs, and one person's beliefs do not have to be applied to everybody. i tried drugs once...and i felt like i wanted to escape..and i used them to escape for a minute...then i realized how bad it is..and i got off. and i don't appreciate anyone labeling me an 'addict for life.' if anything, that could be a self fulfilling propehecy for some. if they want to think that about htemselves..fine..but don't apply it to everybody. remember, this is an opinion board..and no opinion applies to the entire human race. some scientists even tend to disagree. and again, you have said that nobody knows Michael. that, we all can agree on him. we cannot decide for Michael, whether he struggled with something for life, or not. we cannot decide that he has to be like us..or we have to be like him. we are individuals, and we don't know each other. maybe one person struggles with something for life. maybe another person does not. that does not make one better than the other..it just makes them different. some things we may all relate to..and some things we may not. perhaps if someone had to hear another person always saying that they are an addict for life, that could adversely affect them. but, if they decide in their own mind, that they are NOT an addict for life, the power of their own mind could be their saving grace. so...i don't appreciate it when someone applies their opinion to the entire human race. it just isn't so. that's like being a god an issuing an edict. i don't want someone calling me an addict for life, because i am not. and others may feel that way, too.

in conclusion, i surely say...in one line..that yes..person A may be someone who struggles like nobody's business, with an addiction for life..and they consider themselves addicted for life. but person B might be one who had a moment...got off of it, and never thought of it again, and is NOT an addict for life. it's a case by case basis. we can NOT make a mass determination for the entire human race. it's just like homosexuality, heterosexuality, asexuality and some other things. some determine that they are born with it...others determine they were not, and became it. you can't insist that one way is definite for both. it's up to the individual.

It has been proven by modern science that people who has addiction to anything is an addict for life. Their brain chemically changes and is permanently alter. It becomes wired to want that drug and feels that it needs it to survive. This is not an opinion or a theory, it has been scientific proven by countless lab tests. The longer you take drugs the more you brain is alter. No group of psychiatrist came together and made this theory, it has been proven my studies of addicts brains and chemically.

That is why people who has been sober for 10 or 20 years can fall back into addiction. Some may go the rest of their lives and never fall into their addiction again, but they are the exception not the majority. If it was that easy to quit, more people would be able to break their addiction. It is actually when people think they broke their addiction that get into trouble by putting themselves into a situation where they become tempted.

You may say it is all choice, but it is not. It is far more complex than that. You can go on discovery channel and they will tell you exactly what happens to an addict brain.

 

[Beachlover]

You could not PAY me enough to work in the medical field, so don't act as if it's something "high and mighty". To many of us IT ISN'T. I can't tell you how unimpressed I am with many, many, many in that field. I am sickened at some of the "quality" I see coming out of nursing schools these days. There is a shortage of nurses, so they aren't terribly picky these days.

I've read enough of it to see you trying to shift blame to Michael and say that it isn't always appropriate to blame the doctor. In this case, IT IS, so going on about how "difficult" it is for doctors to refuse drugs to patients is a bit inappropriate here.

I am talking about PROPOFOL. That isn't administered for PAIN. WTH do you keep returning to that when administering propofol in a private residence is the issue?

Then you didn't read the whole thread. There were other things brought up and that is what I responded to. I don't want to argue with you. I am old school nursing and not a new grad. I've been doing this for a long time.

If you are going to take what I say out of context then there is no way to have a serious discussion. If you think I am shifting blame to Michael, then maybe you need to go back and re-read my posts. I am not saying he is responsible for what Murray did, but I feel as a person he was responsible for allowing this. This does not mean that I think what Murray did was right.

 

[Soundmind]

EXACTLY. I don't dispute that Michael was doctor shopping to get what he wanted. What I find outrageous is that he actually FOUND an unethical doctor who would give him something so dangerous just because MJ wanted it. Therein lies the problem.

I agree with you that Murray has NO defense for what he did. NONE.

did you read the list of drugs found at mj's house when he died? No one drug was prescribed by two doctors . so what doctor shopping are you talking about ?


again , no drugs recovered from neverland were even in mj's name .

 

[Ramona122003]

THe pictures and the list are on the TMZ sight. Look up Neverland Raid photos or Neverland DRUG photos. I posted the link elsewhere.

Didn't we already say that TMZ is full of crap. I don't trust a thing from their site, even photos. Get me something from a real news site.

 

[LauraLovesMJ]

Dr. Murray did not have the proper equipment to monitor Michael Jackson while under Diprivan.

Dr. Murray is not supposed to administer this anesthesia in a home setting.

Dr. Murray is not a licensed anesthesiologist.

Dr. Murray broke the Hippocratic Oath


Dr. Murray disregarded his patients life by doing the above. It does not matter if Michael had a dependence problem or not - Dr. Murray is responsible for Michael Jackson's death.

We don't have to know Michael Jackson's part in all of this. He could have been as clean as a whistle, or he could have been drugged up and out of his mind - that does NOT matter. What matters is we have a rogue doctor that would do ANYTHING for the right amount of money.

Exactly Trish. And far as I'm concerned, there is NO defense for Murray.

The moment MJ came up to this doctor and said "I need Diprivan to sleep" Dr. Murray should have said NO.

Absolutely. He has NO excuse for doing what he did, other than the almighty dollar he wanted to line his pockets with.

So we blame the rape victim for being raped? Just because she wore a revealing dress to a club and some crazed man forces himself on her? Do we question what she "did or did not do?" Even if I told this woman that wearing that dress is inappropriate does not mean that a man should rape her.

Please don't blame a victim of a crime.

This is what is bothering me right now, and one reason why I don't trust some in the medical profession to do the right thing. Often they are just covering one-another's behinds.

Does MJ bear any responsibility? Sure, because he knew the risk of it all. Michael was so desperate to sleep that he risked his life for it. But it is up to his physician to tell him NO and offer tried and true treatments or refer Michael to a specialist.

Thank you for saying that much more calmly than I could.

 

[144000]

It has been proven by modern science that people who has addiction to anything is an addict for life. Their brain chemically changes and is permanently alter. It becomes wired to want that drug and feels that it needs it to survive. This is not an opinion or a theory, it has been scientific proven by countless lab tests. The longer you take drugs the more you brain is alter. No group of psychiatrist came together and made this theory, it has been proven my studies of addicts brains and chemically.

That is why people who has been sober for 10 or 20 years can fall back into addiction. Some may go the rest of their lives and never fall into their addiction again, but they are the exception not the majority. If it was that easy to quit, more people would be able to break their addiction. It is actually when people think they broke their addiction that get into trouble by putting themselves into a situation where they become tempted.

You may say it is all choice, but it is not. It is far more complex than that. You can go on discovery channel and they will tell you exactly what happens to an addict brain.

no. we have to disagree. no matter what you say, we have to disagree. people see what they want to see. and scientists discover new things everyday. progress happens. i'm not going to keep up with you on this. i don't have to get the last word to know that i am right. my own experience is all i need for that. you don't know my body, and a scientist doesn't know my body. i am not an recovering addict for life, though i had taken drugs. period.

you seem to forget. this world has survived with people who don't agree with science. there are people doing well in this world, who don't agree with science, who are living equally alongside people in this world who do agree with science. this world is bigger than that. and, like i said, scientists have disagreed, and will disagree again. this world is bigger than the discovery channel.

it's a good thing, with you speaking like this, that every individual's mind cannot be affected by what's going on in another individual's mind. what is going on in my mind is beyond a scientist's control.

but at least, i'll grant that you said there are exceptions. but to count them as lesser than the majority, is disrespectful. and of course you don't know how many UNREPORTED cases of people are added to those that are the exception. you don't know the habits of the entire population of the world, and i'm sure that new cases pop up everyday that don't agree with what you are saying..some reported, some, UNREPORTED.

 

[Bo G]

all sneddon listed in his motion were two prescriptions one of them for Frank and one for another employee at neverland , that half empty demerol bottle, and three or four empty bottles recovered from the library . those were the bottles sneddon believed they belonged to MJ . versed would have been a top priority if indeed it was found . no mention of it at all .

You keep repeating this, but haven't produced a link for it, while meanwhile we have links that say otherwise. Granted it's TMZ, but until we have another link, it's the best we've got.

 

[Beachlover]

Didn't we already say that TMZ is full of crap. I don't trust a thing from their site, even photos. Get me something from a real news site.

Well, these are photographs that you can see for yourself, not something they can alter.

Now people are saying they weren't in Michaels name and that must mean they weren't his. Well, we can all form our own opinions and conclusions.

 

[Bo G]

The "addict for life" theory is a really sensitive subject for many, including as we see for some people here, and I don't think it's terribly pertinent that we push on it any further. It's a subject of very hot debate in the medical world and really, everywhere, with reasonable people on both sides. My recommendation would be to let it go on all sides.

 

[Ramona122003]

You keep repeating this, but haven't produced a link for it, while meanwhile we have links that say otherwise. Granted it's TMZ, but until we have another link, it's the best we've got.

Although I pointed out more than a couple of times why that list is questionable at best. I saw the official list and this was not it.

 

[Beachlover]

no. we have to disagree. no matter what you say, we have to disagree. people see what they want to see. and scientists discover new things everyday. progress happens. i'm not going to keep up with you on this. i don't have to get the last word to know that i am right. my own experience is all i need for that. you don't know my body, and a scientist doesn't know my body. i am not an recovering addict for life, though i had taken drugs. period.

you seem to forget. this world has survived with people who don't agree with science. there are people doing well in this world, who don't agree with science, who are living equally alongside people in this world who do agree with science. this world is bigger than that. and, like i said, scientists have disagreed, and will disagree again. this world is bigger than the discovery channel.

Ok. If you have 'taken' drugs that doesn't make you an addict. If you were addicted to those drugs, that makes you a former addict. There is a propensity to becoming addicted again for many people, just as being an alcoholic means you can never drink again. This is just something that has proven true over and over.

 

[ElleBella]

I haven't read this whole thread. But, I'm going to give MY opinion. I've said it here before, I am an addict, I was addicted to pain killers and anxiety pills. I haven't been dependent on pain killers in 4 years. But I am still an addict. I had to have a C-section with my son in January, and had to have pain killers. I could have easily relapsed, because I am still an addict. Once an addict. ALWAYS and FOREVER an addict. We ALL know, Michael himself admitted to being dependent on pain killers, he is an admitted addict. With that said, I hope the lawyers don't use that against him, doubt they would since Murray admitted to giving him the propofol. Another thing, I can't remember, but Janet never said when the intervention occured.

 

[Beachlover]

The "addict for life" theory is a really sensitive subject for many, including as we see for some people here, and I don't think it's terribly pertinent that we push on it any further. It's a subject of very hot debate in the medical world and really, everywhere, with reasonable people on both sides. My recommendation would be to let it go on all sides.

Sorry...I didn't see your post till after I posted mine. Agreed.

 

[144000]

The "addict for life" theory is a really sensitive subject for many, including as we see for some people here, and I don't think it's terribly pertinent that we push on it any further. It's a subject of very hot debate in the medical world and really, everywhere, with reasonable people on both sides. My recommendation would be to let it go on all sides.

thank you. some don't want to admit it IS hotly debated.

Ok. If you have 'taken' drugs that doesn't make you an addict. If you were addicted to those drugs, that makes you a former addict. There is a propensity to becoming addicted again for many people, just as being an alcoholic means you can never drink again. This is just something that has proven true over and over.

you really don't know how long i have been on drugs, do you?

 

[LauraLovesMJ]

did you read the list of drugs found at mj's house when he died?

Yes.

No one drug was prescribed by two doctors . so what doctor shopping are you talking about ?

Doctor shopping is when you go around and get different medications from different doctors, without them necessarily knowing about one-another. This is how lethal combinations can happen. I didn't say or imply MJ was getting the same medication(s) from different doctors.