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I think the family is giving Murray his defense

Ramona122003 said:
... I do not blame people for begging for relief.

It is up to the doctors to remain firm and think of the well-being of the patient. Because when a person is hurting badly, that person is not thinking straight.
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Absolutely agreed. This is why I don't consider acknowledgment of MJ's Propofol dependence in his final weeks as reflecting poorly on him. It was Murray's job to get him on a path that was something other than nightly Russian roulette.
 
Ramona122003 said:
If you are in pain and you know a certain medicine takes it away, I do not think you really care if it harmful. There were times I hurt so bad that I wanted to take the part that hurt and rip it from my body. So, I do not blame people for begging for relief.

It is up to the doctors to remain firm and think of the well-being of the patient. Because when a person is hurting badly, that person is not thinking straight.
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Don't blame the doctors is what I am saying. Patients often do not want to even think of trying an alternative. I have seen this happen time and time again. What I'm saying is to keep in your mind that it is not always proper to blame the doctor. Keep an open mind.

I have seen how some people react when the doctor says no.
 
Bo G said:
Absolutely agreed. This is why I don't consider acknowledgment of MJ's Propofol dependence in his final weeks as reflecting poorly on him. It was Murray's job to get him on a path that was something other than nightly Russian roulette.
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See, this is where things become cloudy and sticky. We don't know MJ's part in all of this. We have heard from people who told him not to take this drug. He took it anyway.

Sometimes you can't win. He could have gotten another doctor to do this for him. We just don't know.
 
Bo G said:
Absolutely agreed. This is why I don't consider acknowledgment of MJ's Propofol dependence in his final weeks as reflecting poorly on him. It was Murray's job to get him on a path that was something other than nightly Russian roulette.
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I think it was more like days then weeks. Considering Michael was calling Kenny at 4am for weeks, even when Murray was with him.

I honestly think that 6 week timeline was a bunch of BS made up by Murray to make Michael look like an addict. Especially when his own lawyer said he was only there a couple of nights a week and not everyday.
 
Beachlover said:
See, this is where things become cloudy and sticky. We don't know MJ's part in all of this. We have heard from people who told him not to take this drug. He took it anyway.

Sometimes you can't win. He could have gotten another doctor to do this for him. We just don't know.
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Yeah and maybe that doctor wouldn't leave the room either and actually be train in given that type of drug. :smilerolleyes:
 
Beachlover said:
See, this is where things become cloudy and sticky. We don't know MJ's part in all of this. We have heard from people who told him not to take this drug. He took it anyway.

Sometimes you can't win. He could have gotten another doctor to do this for him. We just don't know.
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What the HELL are you talking about?
Another Doctor to do what?
KILL HIM?

My God, you people believe every negative thing that is said about
Michael Jackson, while Murray
walks around free as a bird.

Well, Michael is in God's Hands Now. She will protect him. :angel:
 
Ramona122003 said:
Yeah and maybe that doctor wouldn't leave the room either and actually be train in given that type of drug. :smilerolleyes:
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Yeah, that is the part that was wrong for SURE. No matter what MJ did or did not do, that part is unforgivable. Clearly negligence and I am not up on criminal laws but as far as I can tell, it sure isn't the way we are taught in school.
 
CherubimII said:
What the HELL are you talking about?
Another Doctor to do what?
KILL HIM?

My God, you people believe every negative thing that is said about
Michael Jackson, while Murray
walks around free as a bird.

Well, Michael is in God's Hands Now. She will protect him. :angel:
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See, you are reading more into what I said. I didn't ever say that and please don't assume things.
 
CherubimII said:
What the HELL are you talking about?
Another Doctor to do what?
KILL HIM?

My God, you people believe every negative thing that is said about
Michael Jackson, while Murray
walks around free as a bird.

Well, Michael is in God's Hands Now. She will protect him. :angel:
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Ow, I'm deaf! Someone's shouting so loud I can't hear what they're saying!
 
Ramona122003 said:
Yeah and maybe that doctor wouldn't leave the room either and actually be train in given that type of drug. :smilerolleyes:
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Just want to make the point that there is NO acceptable way to administer Propofol in a person's home for insomnia. Doesn't matter how much he was in the room or was trained. Those circumstances make it even worse for Murray, of course, but the prosecution has a good case even without them.
 
Beachlover said:
Yeah, that is the part that was wrong for SURE. No matter what MJ did or did not do, that part is unforgivable. Clearly negligence and I am not up on criminal laws but as far as I can tell, it sure isn't the way we are taught in school.
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no, the "wrong" part was even before that. it came when the doctor trashed his ethics and GAVE MJ what he wanted.

that was the "wrong" part.
 
Beachlover said:
Don't blame the doctors is what I am saying. Patients often do not want to even think of trying an alternative. I have seen this happen time and time again. What I'm saying is to keep in your mind that it is not always proper to blame the doctor. Keep an open mind.

I have seen how some people react when the doctor says no.
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But just because a patient reacts like that does that mean its ok? Its then ok to give them what they want? Doctors do a phenomenal job, yes, but doctors should not be giving a patients what they want. What people want is not always what is best for them.
 
indranee said:
no, the "wrong" part was even before that. it came when the doctor trashed his ethics and GAVE MJ what he wanted.

that was the "wrong" part.
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Sure, but he would have searched further until he found another doctor and that is where MJ is responsible IMHO for his own life. Many of the fans can't understand or don't want to acknowledge that.
 
sloride said:
But just because a patient reacts like that does that mean its ok? Its then ok to give them what they want? Doctors do a phenomenal job, yes, but doctors should not be giving a patients what they want. What people want is not always what is best for them.
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I agree but you haven't seen this first hand like I have. They will complain louder and louder. If one doctor says no they will find another. This is just how it is. We don't have to like it or agree with it but thats the bottom line.
 
Beachlover said:
Don't blame the doctors is what I am saying. Patients often do not want to even think of trying an alternative. I have seen this happen time and time again. What I'm saying is to keep in your mind that it is not always proper to blame the doctor. Keep an open mind.
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Are you SERIOUS with these statements?? :doh: The DOCTOR is the one who is the PROFESSIONAL and is the one who is responsible for the welfare of their patient. They are NOT supposed to dole out drugs to people simply because those people want the drugs! If the drugs are addictive, then that so-called "professional" (PROPER use of quotation marks I might add,) is doing nothing more than creating an addict. Do most doctors closely monitor their patients for addiction? Doubt it.

I have seen how some people react when the doctor says no.
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Here again, it is up to the DOCTOR to act professionally and give the patient what they NEED rather than what they WANT. You're acting like doctors can only react to patients like nervous parents would react to spoiled, screaming children. :smilerolleyes: That is NOT what professional doctors get paid to do!
 
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Beachlover said:
I agree but you haven't seen this first hand like I have. They will complain louder and louder. If one doctor says no they will find another. This is just how it is. We don't have to like it or agree with it but thats the bottom line.
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So your position is that it is OKAY for a doctor to be intimidated into dispensing narcotics like a drug dealer? :smilerolleyes:

Or is it that they figure the patient is going to get the drugs *somewhere*, so it might as well be THEIR office? :doh:

If this is what passes for "professional" ethics these days, then I can see why there are so many addicts out there.

I seriously can't believe a "professional" would defend such actions!
 
have anyone of you read the court documents , probably no , because you would never quote TMZ if you ever read them


sneddon in his motion to admit evidence of drug abuse did not mention any drug found in mj's name AT ALL recovered from the ranch.

they found ONE half empty Demerol bottle somewhere but it was outside the main residence , he mentioned the letter from the Miami doctor about detox programs as an evidence that particular Demerol bottle belonged to MJ , he should have tested it for finger prints if he indeed believed it belonged to mj . that was the ONLY Demerol bottle found in never land .


they found in the library an empty bottle in peter midani's name prescribed by klien , i think it was xanax . peter midani had something to do with Grace , he's linked to grace .

they found another empty bottle of Percocet, with Manuel Rivera's name , Rivera was an employee at neverland still sneddon claimed in his motion this drug was for mj because mj had a dependency on painkillers ACCORDING TO MEDIA REPORTS , that what he said .


they found a prescription of xanax prescribed by Klien for Frank Tyson .

they also found another prescriptions in another name for Prednisone prescribed for Frank .


that was what listed by sneddon , NOTHING MORE .

yeah they also found marijuana and xtacy in a jar in the kitchen but sneddon did not include them in his motion, they obviously did not belong to mj .

but everything associated with Grace who herslef suffered from lupus and Frank who God knows whether he was himself hooked on Xanax like many people , everything associated with these two sneddon considered prescribed for MJ .
No versed was found at the ranch . and certainly no PROPOFOL .
 
Dr. Murray did not have the proper equipment to monitor Michael Jackson while under Diprivan.

Dr. Murray is not supposed to administer this anesthesia in a home setting.

Dr. Murray is not a licensed anesthesiologist.

Dr. Murray broke the Hippocratic Oath
I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
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Dr. Murray disregarded his patients life by doing the above. It does not matter if Michael had a dependence problem or not - Dr. Murray is responsible for Michael Jackson's death.

We don't have to know Michael Jackson's part in all of this. He could have been as clean as a whistle, or he could have been drugged up and out of his mind - that does NOT matter. What matters is we have a rogue doctor that would do ANYTHING for the right amount of money. These doctors that have God like complexes must be stopped from practicing medicine because they are killing people left and right. The moment MJ came up to this doctor and said "I need Diprivan to sleep" Dr. Murray should have said NO.

See, this is where things become cloudy and sticky. We don't know MJ's part in all of this. We have heard from people who told him not to take this drug. He took it anyway.
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So we blame the rape victim for being raped? Just because she wore a revealing dress to a club and some crazed man forces himself on her? Do we question what she "did or did not do?" Even if I told this woman that wearing that dress is inappropriate does not mean that a man should rape her.

Please don't blame a victim of a crime. Does MJ bear any responsibility? Sure, because he knew the risk of it all. Michael was so desperate to sleep that he risked his life for it. But it is up to his physician to tell him NO and offer tried and true treatments or refer Michael to a specialist.
 
Beachlover said:
Sure, but he would have searched further until he found another doctor and that is where MJ is responsible IMHO for his own life. Many of the fans can't understand or don't want to acknowledge that.
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it doesn't matter. obviously MJ was searching for someone who would do what he wanted. but we are talking about a defense. Murray has none when it comes to what HE did.
 
Ramona122003 said:
I agree with your point and I do wonder sometimes how Michael met some of his case of characters. However, I will not judge because I got involve with characters that I wonder till this day what the heck was I thinking :lol:

Also, there is just one thing I want to clear up. I have a relative who had an addiction to painkillers. She is better now, but you have to remember that once you are an addict, you are an addict until the day you die. So, people calling Michael a drug addict is not completely wrong in that sense. Even among addicts this is the rule. Which is why they are often classified as recovering addicts, even if they remain sober for years or for the rest of their lives.

Anyway, people who become addict to painkiller do not do so for the sake of getting high like other drugs. They do for one or two reasons. The first being they had a real medical problem and they take pills. Then when they get off of it, they feel terrible. Like having headaches, body aches, feeling cold or hot, all and all not pretty. This when they become chemical addictive and they need the pill to stop the pain. That is when they have to go into rehab and detox and be wean off with a drug substitute.

The second one, which my relative is, is when you are stress, worried, or just cannot deal with something and you take pills to numb emotional pain. That can lead you to coming addictive in an emotional sense and may to lead to a chemical addiction.

I am not saying Michael was a drug addict and I personally do not believe he was one, however he was a recovering drug addicted since addiction never truly goes away. But, he never took pain pills to get high like other drugs.

I just wanted to clear those point up.
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i don't agree with that. some people want to label 'drug addict till you die' some don't. so..i don't think everybody should be labeled something, just because some psychaiatrist, or somebody said so. people have different beliefs, and one person's beliefs do not have to be applied to everybody. i tried drugs once...and i felt like i wanted to escape..and i used them to escape for a minute...then i realized how bad it is..and i got off. and i don't appreciate anyone labeling me an 'addict for life.' if anything, that could be a self fulfilling propehecy for some. if they want to think that about htemselves..fine..but don't apply it to everybody. remember, this is an opinion board..and no opinion applies to the entire human race. some scientists even tend to disagree. and again, you have said that nobody knows Michael. that, we all can agree on him. we cannot decide for Michael, whether he struggled with something for life, or not. we cannot decide that he has to be like us..or we have to be like him. we are individuals, and we don't know each other. maybe one person struggles with something for life. maybe another person does not. that does not make one better than the other..it just makes them different. some things we may all relate to..and some things we may not. perhaps if someone had to hear another person always saying that they are an addict for life, that could adversely affect them. but, if they decide in their own mind, that they are NOT an addict for life, the power of their own mind could be their saving grace. so...i don't appreciate it when someone applies their opinion to the entire human race. it just isn't so. that's like being a god an issuing an edict. i don't want someone calling me an addict for life, because i am not. and others may feel that way, too.

in conclusion, i surely say...in one line..that yes..person A may be someone who struggles like nobody's business, with an addiction for life..and they consider themselves addicted for life. but person B might be one who had a moment...got off of it, and never thought of it again, and is NOT an addict for life. it's a case by case basis. we can NOT make a mass determination for the entire human race. it's just like homosexuality, heterosexuality, asexuality and some other things. some determine that they are born with it...others determine they were not, and became it. you can't insist that one way is definite for both. it's up to the individual. i say, once again, to drive the point home, my experience with drugs is like it was in another lifetime. i have totally forgotten them, and it's like i never took them. and i'm only mentioning my experience for the purposes of this post. there is nothing in me that is struggling. not one bit. and that is NOT me saying i'm better than someone else, because i know i am not. i am simply stating truth about my body. it is the way it is. there is no remnant of a need for drugs, or a memory of them, in my system. i am NOT a recovering addict for life. so that theory simply does not apply to everybody.
 
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LauraLovesMJ said:
So your position is that it is OKAY for a doctor to be intimidated into dispensing narcotics like a drug dealer? :smilerolleyes:

Or is it that they figure the patient is going to get the drugs *somewhere*, so it might as well be THEIR office? :doh:

If this is what passes for "professional" ethics these days, then I can see why there are so many addicts out there.

I seriously can't believe a "professional" would defend such actions!
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Ok. Let me ask you if you have ever worked in a hospital or clinical setting where you are dealing with people who have pain, claim they have pain or really are just drug seeking? I am serious here. You have NO idea if you don't.

NO it isn't right. Doctors become frustrated with people. We often try to send them to a pain clinic so they don't have to use drugs but there are some who won't go to the pain clinic. They flat out refuse. I have seen doctors not give pain medications many times.

We have had people in the hospital who were alcoholics who go through withdrawal time and time again and leave clean and sober only to show up months later after they were drinking and fell and crack their head open....to be hospitalized again. These people want strong narcotics too.

If you haven't seen it first hand you really are clueless and I mean that in the nicest of ways. There are patients who will be in your face constantly until they get the pain medication they want and they will be up at all hours of the night demanding you call their doctor. They are relentless. You can not force them into rehab. Its against the law.

Professionals don't condone these behaviors but what do you do with these people? Who are you to judge whether they are in pain? Do you not give them pain medication when they say they are in pain? Everyone comes in complaining of back pain. Is it ethical to deny them pain medication? Thats what I meant by keeping an open mind. It goes two ways.
 
Beachlover said:
I agree but you haven't seen this first hand like I have. They will complain louder and louder. If one doctor says no they will find another. This is just how it is. We don't have to like it or agree with it but thats the bottom line.
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so what are you saying here, exactly, Beachlover?
 
I haven't read all the posts here & I'm not a medical dr. or anything but is taking any kind of drug from a dr's office, hospital, any medical place where its supposed to be & into a resident's home- unethical or even illegal? It seems to me that thats against all codes and ethics. & possibly illegal. is it??
 
all sneddon listed in his motion were two prescriptions one of them for Frank and one for another employee at neverland , that half empty demerol bottle, and three or four empty bottles recovered from the library . those were the bottles sneddon believed they belonged to MJ . versed would have been a top priority if indeed it was found . no mention of it at all .
 
BillieJean84 said:
I haven't read all the posts here & I'm not a medical dr. or anything but is taking any kind of drug from a dr's office, hospital, any medical place where its supposed to be & into a resident's home- unethical or even illegal? It seems to me that thats against all codes and ethics. & possibly illegal. is it??
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I didn't think he was even licensed to practice medicine in California.
 
indranee said:
it doesn't matter. obviously MJ was searching for someone who would do what he wanted. but we are talking about a defense. Murray has none when it comes to what HE did.
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murray was mj's doctor since january 2006 . way before propofol . he did not search for anyone , murray was there , when he was asked he said yes .
 
LauraLovesMJ said:
I didn't think he was even licensed to practice medicine in California.
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thats even worse lol. but it is illegal for any dr from any state, let alone, L.A. , to take any kind of medicine out of the medical field & use in a home??
 
Beachlover said:
Ok. Let me ask you if you have ever worked in a hospital or clinical setting where you are dealing with people who have pain, claim they have pain or really are just drug seeking? I am serious here. You have NO idea if you don't.

NO it isn't right. Doctors become frustrated with people. We often try to send them to a pain clinic so they don't have to use drugs but there are some who won't go to the pain clinic. They flat out refuse. I have seen doctors not give pain medications many times.

We have had people in the hospital who were alcoholics who go through withdrawal time and time again and leave clean and sober only to show up months later after they were drinking and fell and crack their head open....to be hospitalized again. These people want strong narcotics too.

If you haven't seen it first hand you really are clueless and I mean that in the nicest of ways. There are patients who will be in your face constantly until they get the pain medication they want and they will be up at all hours of the night demanding you call their doctor. They are relentless. You can not force them into rehab. Its against the law.

Professionals don't condone these behaviors but what do you do with these people? Who are you to judge whether they are in pain? Do you not give them pain medication when they say they are in pain? Everyone comes in complaining of back pain. Is it ethical to deny them pain medication? Thats what I meant by keeping an open mind. It goes two ways.
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okay, I understand what you're trying to say there. it's hard to refuse treatment to patients in dire need of it via the quickie painkiller or the sedative. but you can't compare a hospital setting to what happened here. Dr. Murray not only did what HE did for money (150K a month -- my understanding is that he originally wanted a million but was talked down)... he did it in the most haphazard, sneaky, criminally negligent and UNCARING way possible.

Michael was his friend? I think not. I know I'd never treat my friend this way.

he deserves to rot in jail forever.
 
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