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I think the family is giving Murray his defense

I was just clearing up the different of a medication addict and illegal drug addict. People who get addition to medication do not do so to get high. That is all I meant.

I also only meant that Michael would be a recovering addict because of the way addiction work. I never once said he relapsed.

This had nothing to do with his death and I was just clearing some points up. Even if he was a drug addict or not does not change what Murray did.
 
Ramona122003 said:
I was just clearing up the different of a medication addict and illegal drug addict. People who get addition to medication do not do so to get high. That is all I meant.

I also only meant that Michael would be a recovering addict because of the way addiction work. I never once said he relapsed.

This had nothing to do with his death and I was just clearing some points up. Even if he was a drug addict or not does not change what Murray did.
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thats right
 
Draliongirl said:
I had an adicction on prescription drugs when younger
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Although I never had an addiction I have more than a few relatives and friends who struggle with it everyday. They even call themselves addicts even if they go years and years without taking their choice drug. That is why they are called recovering addicts. They will tell you themselves that everyday is a struggle.

Maybe it is different with you, since I do not know you personally I cannot tell. But it has been proven scientifically and by individuals who struggle with any addiction that it never goes away. That is why it is call a lifetime disease. That is all I meant.
 
Soso Deaf said:
it's not drugs that killed him by his own hand. it was administered by the doctor. it was reckless behaviour, conduct before and after the fact, and lying that will implicate murray. not what mike took in 05 or 03 or 93 or whenever.
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totally right
 
Ramona122003 said:
Although I never had an addiction I have more than a few relatives and friends who struggle with it everyday. They even call themselves addicts even if they go years and years without taking their choice drug. That is why they are called recovering addicts. They will tell you themselves that everyday is a struggle.

Maybe it is different with you, since I do not know you personally I cannot tell. But it has been proven scientifically and by individuals who struggle with any addiction that it never goes away. That is why it is call a lifetime disease. That is all I meant.
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that is right too, yes
 
sdeidjs said:
in my opinion, it should not matter one way or the other...

As a professional (doctor) murray has an oath/ duty to care for his patient (s)...in the utmost "professional" manner..!

gross negligence is a legal concept which means serious carelessness. negligence is the opposite of diligence, or being careful. The standard of ordinary negligence is what conduct one expects from the proverbial "reasonable man". By analogy, if somebody has been grossly negligent, that means they have fallen so far below the ordinary standard of care that one can expect, to warrant the label of being "gross".

Therefore, in a court of law he must prove that he done every thing that is/was medically possible to protect, and care for his patient (s) health and well being.

:angel:heal the world...we are the world...education is the key~~~
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thank you! Exactly!
 
Ramona122003 said:
Anyone who struggle with addiction does so for the rest of their lives, that is a proven fact. Weather a person relapse or not depends on the individual. Ray Charles, rest his soul, was a heroin addict, but once he got clean he stayed clean until the day he died. Someone like DJ Am, may he too rest in peace, struggle with is addiction until the died of a relapse.

My relatives has remain clean for years, but even she still goes to group meeting and have friends with other recovering addict. When people say it is a disease they are not saying that to be nice.

We do not know the extent of Michael's addiction, but he would be classified as a recovering addict because you never really get over you addiction. It is like a cancer that goes into remission and it might come back at any time.
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The "addict for life" theory is definitely the most prevalent theory about addiction among professionals... and among recovering addicts themselves, I suspect.

There are some who challenge it. I tend to waver back and forth on what I think personally, but lean toward the first.
 
magiktori said:
i take drugs for mood and muscle problems due to being disabled other then that id be considered slightly overwright but perfectly healthy
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I take drugs for my thyroid condition too. they don't mess up my organs; quite the opposite, in fact. if I DIDN'T take them, some of my organs would be shot.

not all drugs are habit-forming even though we NEED them to survive. hence, the difference between addiction and dependency. it depends on WHAT you're taking. painkillers will do it, even after 6 weeks. it happened to my uncle. his kidney is in bad shape after 6 weeks of ibuprofen therapy for back pain. there are times if you might be able to slowly coax your body back into shape, but the way people are talking about Mike abusing painkillers for YEARS, it's not possible for him to come out of it without visible damage to his organs -- which is what the autopsy report said.

as for Diprivan/Propofol, you *can* form an addiction to it yes. but it's detectable in brain chemistry and Michael did not show that either.

ie, he was NOT addicted. but he WAS dependent on the Propofol. I doubt he was dependent on the sedatives.
 
crazy4umjackson said:
I like something that was said on Joy Behar show. She said that Michael Jackson shouldnt be categorised as a drug addict, because he didnt chose to use painkillers to get high or for recreational use as other drug addicts do. People become addicts due to peer pressure, or just for the thrill of it..And she also said that circumstances led Jackson to become dependent on pain killers..It made me smile, because in my conversations with other people reagarding michael`s drug problem i would always correct them that he wasnt an addict.
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really? can you give me a link please? so far, Joy has been atrocious about Mike. so much so that I've been avoiding her show.
 
indranee said:
I take drugs for my thyroid condition too. they don't mess up my organs; quite the opposite, in fact. if I DIDN'T take them, some of my organs would be shot.

not all drugs are habit-forming even though we NEED them to survive. hence, the difference between addiction and dependency. it depends on WHAT you're taking. painkillers will do it, even after 6 weeks. it happened to my uncle. his kidney is in bad shape after 6 weeks of ibuprofen therapy for back pain. there are times if you might be able to slowly coax your body back into shape, but the way people are talking about Mike abusing painkillers for YEARS, it's not possible for him to come out of it without visible damage to his organs -- which is what the autopsy report said.

as for Diprivan/Propofol, you *can* form an addiction to it yes. but it's detectable in brain chemistry and Michael did not show that either.

ie, he was NOT addicted. but he WAS dependent on the Propofol. I doubt he was dependent on the sedatives.
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From what I understand of Propofol addiction, it is when you inject yourself for only a few seconds and do it over and over again. You do not become chemically or physical addictive, but you become mentally addictive to the feeling of waking up that Propofol gives you. Since Michael only used it for sleep, I highly doubt he became addictive to it.

Also, he used it during the History Tour and he did not become additive then. If he took any during the period between his last tour and the day he died, I think more doctors would had stepped up to say he took this drug.

To my understand too, Propofol causes liver and kidney damage if it is overuse too much. Michael showed no signs of this, which is why I doubt Murray gave him that drug for 6 weeks without his organs becoming damage.

However, I agree with your points, indranee. Thank you for sharing.
 
indranee said:
he WAS dependent on the Propofol. I doubt he was dependent on the sedatives.
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Once he was on the Propofol, leading up to his death, I think this accurately describes his status.

He must have worked his way UP to Propofol through sedatives, in trying to sleep. It's too insane to think he would use Propofol if sedatives could have helped him; so he must have developed too high a tolerance to sedatives. So I believe one must presume he replaced a sedative dependency with a Propofol dependency in his last weeks.
 
Bo G said:
Once he was on the Propofol, leading up to his death, I think this accurately describes his status.

He must have worked his way UP to Propofol through sedatives, in trying to sleep. It's too insane to think he would use Propofol if sedatives could have helped him; so he must have developed too high a tolerance to sedatives. So I believe one must presume he replaced a sedative dependency with a Propofol dependency in his last weeks.
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I do not think he was a depended on sedatives since sleeping medication does damage your organs after a long period of time.

You have to remember with people with sever insomnia, most sleeping medication actually does not work for them. In fact, it makes many of their symptoms worst. So, maybe he did not have a high tolerance, but more of the fact that most medicines made him feel worst.

He took Propofol all through the History Tour and there is no evident to suggest he took any after the tour was over. Also, you cannot become depended on Propofol in that way from my understanding. If you want to get someone off of it, you simply stop giving it to them.
 
Ramona122003 said:
From what I understand of Propofol addiction, it is when you inject yourself for only a few seconds and do it over and over again. You do not become chemically or physical addictive, but you become mentally addictive to the feeling of waking up that Propofol gives you. Since Michael only used it for sleep, I highly doubt he became addictive to it.
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This is too great a leap in logic to say that because MJ was not using it for a daytime high, so did not have a "high-driven" psychological dependence, he therefore had no dependence at all.

MJ would not have taken such a risk unless he either believed he needed Propofol to sleep (psychological dependence) or actually needed it to sleep (physical dependence). Since this is brand new to medical science, which kind it is is a debate for physicians and well beyond our knowledge.
 
indranee said:
as for Diprivan/Propofol, you *can* form an addiction to it yes. but it's detectable in brain chemistry and Michael did not show that either.
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I don't recall seeing anything about this in the autopsy report or the subsequent expert interpretations. Do you have a link?
 
Definition of a "Jackson Family Intervention" IS
"Michael Jackson, my brother, you MUST
come with us and do a FAMILY REUNION TOUR
with every one of your sisters and brothers (INCLUDING JANET);
so that WE can all "MAKE MONEY OFF OF YOU".
 
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Bo G said:
This is too great a leap in logic to say that because MJ was not using it for a daytime high, so did not have a "high-driven" psychological dependence, he therefore had no dependence at all.

MJ would not have taken such a risk unless he either believed he needed Propofol to sleep (psychological dependence) or actually needed it to sleep (physical dependence). Since this is brand new to medical science, which kind it is is a debate for physicians and well beyond our knowledge.
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He most likely took Propofol because it worked, it did not leave him feeling like crap in the morning, and it was a low check of him becoming addictive to it. People with sever insomnia usually cannot take more mainstream sleep medication because it make their symptoms worst. If in fact, they often just learn to live with their insomnia and do not even bother with medication.

Michael was most likely that way since when they raided his house, they did not find a truckload of sleep medicine. Also, taking sleep medicine for a long period of time does damage your organs and your sperm count. Which is why the autosy mention him actively producing sperm.

Also, if he was depended on Propofol to sleep all the time, he would had been taking it for years and they is no evident of that. It appears he only took it during tours when he needed to sleep and could go down fast/
 
CherubimII said:
Definition of a "Jackson Family Intervention" IS
"Michael Jackson, my brother, you MUST come with us and do a
FAMILY REUNION TOUR
with every one of your sisters and brothers (INCLUDING JANET);
so that WE can all "MAKE MONEY OFF OF YOU".
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Janet would not make any money off any tour by her brothers since she does not tour with them. So, Janet would really get nothing from a reunion tour.

Also, I heard Michael wanted to do more projects with Janet, but she actually turn him down. Which is why the only song they did together was Scream. Also, how did Rebbie become a part of this?
 
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Bo G said:
Once he was on the Propofol, leading up to his death, I think this accurately describes his status.

He must have worked his way UP to Propofol through sedatives, in trying to sleep. It's too insane to think he would use Propofol if sedatives could have helped him; so he must have developed too high a tolerance to sedatives. So I believe one must presume he replaced a sedative dependency with a Propofol dependency in his last weeks.
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exactly. in fact, he's always had a high tolerance level for generic sedatives (say, benzos) because he's always had anxiety problems leading to insomnia. he came out of an extremely stressful childhood and youth -- we should never forget that. the Propofol must have seemed like a godsend to him because you CANNOT build a tolerance to it. it's as simple as that... sigh :(

anyway, I also agree with Soundmind and Ramona. Mike was using the Propofol for sleep, not the whole other angle of feeling the high or whatever that comes from waking up out of it, he was using it expressly to get "rest". I doubt his body was getting real rest though. we've all gone through the whys and the wherefores of this exhaustively since June 25th, so I'm not getting into that.

I think the jury -- if it goes to court -- is going to have to determine the fine line between Mike NEEDING the Propofol for "rest" in between his grueling rehearsal schedule and Murray giving him the sedatives AND then the Propofol in the morning. there's just so many lies in that statement that no lawyer worth his degree can and should let it go. it's his inconsistency and lies that are gonna get him in the end.
 
Bo G said:
I don't recall seeing anything about this in the autopsy report or the subsequent expert interpretations. Do you have a link?
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sure, I think someone gave us this link earlier on in this thread. I think Mike had PTSD. if you think about it, it's very possible that his chronic insomnia got a huge boost after the trial. he was totally traumatized by that. anybody taking a look at his face would have to agree.

http://www.farleycenter.com/resources/articles/2009-07-07/spotlight-diprivan-and-propofol-addiction
 
I'm going to break this down, if you don't mind, Ramona... there's a lot here to consider:

Ramona122003 said:
He most likely took Propofol because it worked, it did not leave him feeling like crap in the morning... People with sever insomnia usually cannot take more mainstream sleep medication because it make their symptoms worst.
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What you're describing is drug tolerance, the classic hallmark of drug dependence. Low doses of insomnia drugs do not leave you feeling like crap in the morning.
Ramona122003 said:
[insomniacs] often just learn to live with their insomnia and do not even bother with medication.
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The term for this is "beating a dependence." Or avoiding slipping into one.
Ramona122003 said:
He most likely took Propofol because it worked, it did not leave him feeling like crap in the morning, and it was a low check of him becoming addictive to it.
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"low check of him becoming addictive"? There's nothing to support that statement at all. The best evidence available to him showed that it was actually a serious addiction problem, though obviously for different uses... he had no evidence on HIS use, because no one in medical history was crazy enough to do it before. You and I both know he googled enough to know all about it, plus other professionals warned him.
Ramona122003 said:
taking sleep medicine for a long period of time does damage your organs and your sperm count. Which is why the autosy mention him actively producing sperm.
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This is really variable among drugs, which could have suppressed without stopping sperm production. I really doubt that sperm count is a useful indicator of anything to do with drug use. Also, I think it's a stretch to say that's WHY the autopsy mentioned it. It could just be routine. Or because of the kids question.
Ramona122003 said:
Also, if he was depended on Propofol to sleep all the time, he would had been taking it for years and they is no evident of that.
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Whoa, waaayy to big a leap. Why would he have had to have been taking it for years to have been dependent on it? People with dependencies go on and off all the time. He could have just been "on" in recent weeks.
 
Bo G said:
I'm going to break this down, if you don't mind, Ramona... there's a lot here to consider:


What you're describing is drug tolerance, the classic hallmark of drug dependence. Low doses of insomnia drugs do not leave you feeling like crap in the morning.

The term for this is "beating a dependence." Or avoiding slipping into one.

"low check of him becoming addictive"? There's nothing to support that statement at all. The best evidence available to him showed that it was actually a serious addiction problem, though obviously for different uses... he had no evidence on HIS use, because no one in medical history was crazy enough to do it before. You and I both know he googled enough to know all about it, plus other professionals warned him.

This is really variable among drugs, which could have suppressed without stopping sperm production. I really doubt that sperm count is a useful indicator of anything to do with drug use. Also, I think it's a stretch to say that's WHY the autopsy mentioned it. It could just be routine. Or because of the kids question.

Whoa, waaayy to big a leap. Why would he have had to have been taking it for years to have been dependent on it? People with dependencies go on and off all the time. He could have just been "on" in recent weeks.
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People with sever insomnia do not become immune to sleep medication through dependancy, it is because it just doesn't work. There has been cases where people can take sleep medication until the cows come home and it does nothing. At best, it makes them sleep for a couple of hours and they wake up feeling worst then when they first went to sleep. This happen with people who do not take alot of medication.

The reason people stop taking medication does not have to do with 'beaten dependancy', but on the fact that they try different medication, it did not really work, so they learn to deal with their insomnia. From what I have seen this is what Michael did. Because when they raided his house in 2003, they didn't find sleep medication, but alot of pain pills, which is why some people said he was an addict during the trail.

I already told you in other post how people addictive to Propofol acts and Michael showed no signs of this. You also have no evident too either way if one can even become depended on Propofol by the way it knocks you out.

Also yes, there are sleep medication and other drugs can effect your sperm court, so such details are important. Also taking sleep medication for long period of time do damage your organs. Which is one of the reasons why it is suggested for temporary use instead of long term treatment.

As I have stated in my other post, Michael took Propofol during the History Tour. By your definition he should had been taking it from that day until he died if he was so depended on it to sleep. So, it is not such a big leap.
 
Well, it's always interesting talking with you, Ramona. I'm afraid we've totally hijacked this thread, but I guess there haven't been complaints yet.

It's not correct that sedatives were not found in the 2003 raid. Versed and alprazolam are benzodiazepines, which further confirms my "10-point theory." Not only these sedatives, but another one that can be used as a sedative: Promethazine. I just looked at this now -- I hadn't realized they found evidence of Propofol use then as well, which is sad news for me. Ramona... I think you really need to reconsider your position, based on this. Here's the list:

Examiner (quoting TMZ -- these are not good sources, but this seems factual and all I have time for right now)
Neverland Ranch raid in 2003 shows Jackson had large amounts of powerful drugs.
July 10, 2009
Examiner
Amy Winsett

Neverland Ranch, July 1, 2009

TMZ.com reports that Michael Jackson possessed large amounts of various potent drugs. This was brought to light by a Sheriff's report that listed the drugs obtained in a raid in 2003 of Neverland Ranch.

The report contained the following, according to TMZ.com:

Versed (vial), a benzodiazepine derivitive, used for sedation, sometimes used for treatment of insomnia or sedation prior to surgery.

IV bags containing "a milky white fluid, located in a small cardboard box on top of the bathtub." Propofol has a milky white appearance and was found in Jackson's home the day he died.

Promethazine (vial) , an antihistamine and anti-emetic (to reduce vomiting), sometimes known as Phenergan, also creates sedation

Alprazolam (bottle), also known as Xanax, a benzodiazepine that creates sedation

Percocet, a narcotic painkiller, its main ingredient being Oxycodone

A syringe

A vial containing Demerol

Loose pills outside bottles

Prednisone (bottle), a steroid

Ery-tab, an antibiotic

Prescriptions for Xanax that had been filled

A prescription for Alprazolam, also known as Xanax

Oxygen tanks

IV stands
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Bo G said:
Well, it's always interesting talking with you, Ramona. I'm afraid we've totally hijacked this thread, but I guess there haven't been complaints yet.

It's not correct that sedatives were not found in the 2003 raid. Versed and alprazolam are benzodiazepines, which further confirms my "10-point theory." Not only these sedatives, but another one that can be used as a sedative: Promethazine. I just looked at this now -- I hadn't realized they found evidence of Propofol use then as well, which is sad news for me. Ramona... I think you really need to reconsider your position, based on this. Here's the list:

Examiner (quoting TMZ -- these are not good sources, but this seems factual and all I have time for right now)
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I tend to agree with Bo here. I had seen photos of the drugs they found when they did the Neverland raid and saw the names on the bottles and they did not say "Michael Jackson". They were a mix of pain medications and sedatives. I can also understand that he did not want his medical history picked up by the news and may have used different name for that reason alone. Understandably.

I think the thing about Propofol is that the addiction is more psychological than anything else. I also think he was warned and he knew what he was going and chose to do it because other methods didn't work for him. Whatever reasons he had, he chose to use this drug in spite of what anyone may have said to him or whatever warnings he heard.
 
Bo G said:
Well, it's always interesting talking with you, Ramona. I'm afraid we've totally hijacked this thread, but I guess there haven't been complaints yet.

It's not correct that sedatives were not found in the 2003 raid. Versed and alprazolam are benzodiazepines, which further confirms my "10-point theory." Not only these sedatives, but another one that can be used as a sedative: Promethazine. I just looked at this now -- I hadn't realized they found evidence of Propofol use then as well, which is sad news for me. Ramona... I think you really need to reconsider your position, based on this. Here's the list:

Examiner (quoting TMZ -- these are not good sources, but this seems factual and all I have time for right now)
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Considering the source I will take it with a grain of salt. I remember seeing the list before and most of the stuff on here were not mention. If they found Propofol do you think the DA would had been waving it around like a flag at his trail. Also, the oxygen tanks can easily be explain by his breathing problems, which the autopsy confirm.

Also, they found a bunch of drugs in his house when he died too and only the drugs found in Murray's doctor bag was found in his body, except one sedative but that could had been planted by Murray to suggest overdose. So the fact he had sleeping medication does not mean he was actually taking them. They also could be other people's medicines, did they check the names.

So, my statement stands.
 
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