I think the family is giving Murray his defense

[Beachlover]

Considering the source I will take it with a grain of salt. I remember seeing the list before and most of the stuff on here were not mention. If they found Propofol do you think the DA would had been waving it around like a flag at his trail. Also, the oxygen tanks can easily be explain by his breathing problems, which the autopsy confirm.

Also, they found a bunch of drugs in his house when he died too and only the drugs found in Murray's doctor bag was found in his body, except one sedative but that could had been planted by Murray to suggest overdose. So the fact he had sleeping medication does not mean he was actually taking them. They also could be other people's medicines, did they check the names.

So, my statement stands.

There were photographs of the bottles found there and photos of a medicine cabinet in Neverland as well as a room full of oxygen tanks.

The reason the drugs were never brought up at he trial is because they had no reason to mention them as they had nothing to do with the charges.

 

[terrell]

In Michael's defense, I do not know why some people think because you have meds in your house that tehy all belongs to you or that you are talking them all. If they come in my house, I would be label a junkie as well by this defination.

 

[Bo G]

Considering the source I will take it with a grain of salt. I remember seeing the list before and most of the stuff on here were not mention. If they found Propofol do you think the DA would had been waving it around like a flag at his trail. Also, the oxygen tanks can easily be explain by his breathing problems, which the autopsy confirm.

Also, they found a bunch of drugs in his house when he died too and only the drugs found in Murray's doctor bag was found in his body, except one sedative but that could had been planted by Murray to suggest overdose. So the fact he had sleeping medication does not mean he was actually taking them. They also could be other people's medicines, did they check the names.

So, my statement stands.

I agree my source wasn't the best -- I had edited my post to say so, before you wrote this. But it's not the worst either. If you saw something that contradicts it, do please try to find it. If no sedatives were found in 2003 as you say, it would indeed cause me to reconsider the point in my "10-point theory" about chronic sedative use.

But if my source IS right, it should cause you to consider your theory as well.

I think my source is good enough, until you find something to contradict it.

 

[Bo G]

In Michael's defense, I do not know why some people think because you have meds in your house that tehy all belongs to you or that you are talking them all. If they come in my house, I would be label a junkie as well by this defination.

You're right that it doesn't prove anything conclusively. But it contributes heavily to what people call the "weight of evidence."

 

[Beachlover]

I agree my source wasn't the best -- I had edited my post to say so, before you wrote this. But it's not the worst either. If you saw something that contradicts it, do please try to find it. If no sedatives were found in 2003 as you say, it would indeed cause me to reconsider the point in my "10-point theory" about chronic sedative use.

But if my source IS right, it should cause you to consider your theory as well.

I think my source is good enough, until you find something to contradict it.

There are photos of the raid with pictures of the narcotic and other bottles on the internet. You can find them by searching neverland ranch raid photos / drugs.

 

[Sdeidjs]

thank you! Exactly!

Your very welcome..!

:angel:Knowledge IS Growth...Education IS The Key~~~

 

[Ramona122003]

There were photographs of the bottles found there and photos of a medicine cabinet in Neverland as well as a room full of oxygen tanks.

The reason the drugs were never brought up at he trial is because they had no reason to mention them as they had nothing to do with the charges.

They try to paint him as an alcoholic at the trail, so why not say he was also an out of control drug addict. Also, finding a hospital drug in someone's house like Propofol would go a long way in proven that he was insane and capable in molesting a child. That trail was all about character assassination.

Also, the tanks can still be explain as for his breathing problem. People have oxygen tanks in their house for medical issues, so it does not automatically mean Propofol use.

And there is still no solid proof that he took those drugs or if they were even his. His staff could had kept medication at his house. They found a alot of drugs on the day he died with different names and none of them were found in his body.

 

[indranee]

well I remember reports saying he had 2 or 3 blood pressure pills in his rented house as well. from what I know, he didn't have high BP, but his mom did.

 

[Bo G]

There are photos of the raid with pictures of the narcotic and other bottles on the internet. You can find them by searching neverland ranch raid photos / drugs.

I've given what I consider adequate evidence, you're responsible for yours if you claim you know of contradictory evidence.

The lack of a photo of a sedative on TMZ does not prove they weren't there. There's no reason to think the TMZ photos are a complete catalog of what was found.

There's a saying in logic and in science: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Now if sedatives are not on the list of what was found there, that's a different story. But sedatives ARE on the list.

 

[Bo G]

They try to paint him as an alcoholic at the trail, so why not say he was also an out of control drug addict. Also, finding a hospital drug in someone's house like Propofol would go a long way in proven that he was insane and capable in molesting a child. That trail was all about character assassination.

Also, the tanks can still be explain as for his breathing problem. People have oxygen tanks in their house for medical issues, so it does not automatically mean Propofol use.

Correct, tanks don't mean automatically mean Propofol. But you failed to mention the IV equipment. What possible purpose could that be? Plus there were vials of a milky white substance. That, plus a history of Propofol IV use in the past, creates a "weight of evidence" pointing toward Propofol use at least in the recent past leading up to the raid.

 

[Beachlover]

Correct, tanks don't mean automatically mean Propofol. But you failed to mention the IV equipment. What possible purpose could that be? Plus there were vials of a milky white substance. That, plus a history of Propofol IV use in the past, creates a "weight of evidence" pointing toward Propofol use at least in the recent past leading up to the raid.

I am in agreement with you regarding this matter. I am not opposing your views here.

 

[Beachlover]

I've given what I consider adequate evidence, you're responsible for yours if you claim you know of contradictory evidence.

The lack of a photo of a sedative on TMZ does not prove they weren't there. There's no reason to think the TMZ photos are a complete catalog of what was found.

There's a saying in logic and in science: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Now if sedatives are not on the list of what was found there, that's a different story. But sedatives ARE on the list.

That is entirely true. They did list more things than were photographed and I had seen pictures other than those posted on TMZ. I will search again to find them but I did see a medicine cabinet with things not shown on the TMZ sight.

It was not brought up at the trial and had something to do with the Drug Enforcement Agency if I recall. It was not the reason they did the raid and therefore not allowed. There is some legal technicality there.

 

[Ramona122003]

Correct, tanks don't mean automatically mean Propofol. But you failed to mention the IV equipment. What possible purpose could that be? Plus there were vials of a milky white substance. That, plus a history of Propofol IV use in the past, creates a "weight of evidence" pointing toward Propofol use at least in the recent past leading up to the raid.

Once again, if they found Propofol they would had mentioned it at the trial to make him seem even more insane. Notice how they do not tell you if was was Propofol. It think the police would had tested something if they didn't know what the heck it was. Although not illegal to own, I think it would be cause for concern to see something that should be in a hospital in someone's house, especially if that person does not have a medical degree.

Also, Nurse Lee herself said that she used to give him vitamins through an IV drip and people have IVs in their house for various reasons. So, it really does not prove anything.

Unless you can show Michael had a doctor in his house before the raid, I doubt he took it himself.

 

[RainbowAngel]

It's amazing how some people here seems to know lots of pharmaceutical and medicine stuffs. Where did they learn those knowledge from? Did they studied pharmaceutics before or did they self-educate themself to try to figure out what was really going on with their favorite idol?

 

[Sirena]

Definition of a "Jackson Family Intervention" IS
"Michael Jackson, my brother, you MUST
come with us and do a FAMILY REUNION TOUR
with every one of your sisters and brothers (INCLUDING JANET);
so that WE can all "MAKE MONEY OFF OF YOU".

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lmao:

 

[Beachlover]

It's amazing how some people here seems to know lots of pharmaceutical and medicine stuffs. Where did they learn those knowledge from? Did they studied pharmaceutics before or did they self-educate themself to try to figure out what was really going on with their favorite idol?

I am a Registered Nurse and have worked with drug addicted people; have worked in a Pain Clinic which is for people who have constant pain and we try to get them to use other methods besides narcotics; I am a Cardiology specialist among other things in the medical field over the years.....AND...I love Michael Jackson.

 

[terrell]

It's amazing how some people here seems to know lots of pharmaceutical and medicine stuffs. Where did they learn those knowledge from? Did they studied pharmaceutics before or did they self-educate themself to try to figure out what was really going on with their favorite idol?

SOund like Jackson has fans from all walks of life and professions.

 

[Bo G]

Once again, if they found Propofol they would had mentioned it at the trial to make him seem even more insane. Notice how they do not tell you if was was Propofol. It think the police would had tested something if they didn't know what the heck it was. Although not illegal to own, I think it would be cause for concern to see something that should be in a hospital in someone's house, especially if that person does not have a medical degree.

Also, Nurse Lee herself said that she used to give him vitamins through an IV drip and people have IVs in their house for various reasons. So, it really does not prove anything.

Unless you can show Michael had a doctor in his house before the raid, I doubt he took it himself.

Good point about the vitamin drip.

I'll give you this much, Ramona. The evidence for Propofol use in 2003 is significantly weaker than the evidence for sedative use, and based on what I have right now I'm not going to push on this one. I will push on the sedative use, until I see something contradictory.

The fact that you never seem to concede a single point, I'm afraid, makes you appear more like a PR person or an advocate than someone interested in finding out the facts. I don't find it very interesting to debate PR people, to be honest.

 

[Sirena]

It's amazing how some people here seems to know lots of pharmaceutical and medicine stuffs. Where did they learn those knowledge from? Did they studied pharmaceutics before or did they self-educate themself to try to figure out what was really going on with their favorite idol?

LOL!!

MJ fans are no dummies, that's for sure!

 

[Ramona122003]

Good point about the vitamin drip.

I'll give you this much, Ramona. The evidence for Propofol use in 2003 is significantly weaker than the evidence for sedative use, and based on what I have right now I'm not going to push on this one. I will push on the sedative use, until I see something contradictory.

The fact that you never seem to concede a single point, I'm afraid, makes you appear more like a PR person or an advocate than someone interested in finding out the facts. I don't find it very interesting to debate PR people, to be honest.

It is not that I do not concede a point, but you have not shown enough evident to change my mind, like I have not shown you enough evident to change your mind on the sedatives. Especially with an autopsy report that said he was healthy with normal organs.

You can say that pain pills and sedatives will not do that, but unless you can give me a list of medicines that would not damage your organs over a long period of time and Michael took them, I am more willing to believe the autopsy report. Especially since taking Propofol damages the liver and kidney if taking for too long.

There is a possibility the was depended on sedatives, but there is also possibility that was not. Just because medicine was found in his house does not mean it was his and he was taking it at that time. If I went by that logic, I would had to conclude that Michael took all the drugs they found on the day he died.

We both have valid points and unless we see Michael's entire medical history with every single drug he was given over the years, we can go back and forward on this indefinitely.

The fact is we do not know and can we both agree on that?

 

[Beachlover]

Once again, if they found Propofol they would had mentioned it at the trial to make him seem even more insane. Notice how they do not tell you if was was Propofol. It think the police would had tested something if they didn't know what the heck it was. Although not illegal to own, I think it would be cause for concern to see something that should be in a hospital in someone's house, especially if that person does not have a medical degree.

Also, Nurse Lee herself said that she used to give him vitamins through an IV drip and people have IVs in their house for various reasons. So, it really does not prove anything.

Unless you can show Michael had a doctor in his house before the raid, I doubt he took it himself.

Well, I really doubt Nurse Lee would have left these things there. Vitamins are generally yellow in color and Iron is a reddish brown. Vitamin B injections are red. The only IV nourishment that is white is 'fats' and they are kept in a refrigerator and they must be made at the time of infusion. Those are TPN (Parenteral Nutrition) and it makes no sense he would have needed that or that she would have given him that at all.

Generally, when you administer you don't leave the IV things around; you dispose of them. I was unaware that she gave them through IV though.

As far as proof and what the authorities know that we don't is what is the drug history and they can get that from the hair, brain tissues and other things.

To make a conviction here it is not necessary to know this. What is necessary to know is what Murray actually gave Michael; how much he gave and whether it was administered legally and correctly. In other words, was Murray licensed to give this medicine and where did he get it? Was he following guidelines that are safe for practice? Was he even monitoring his patient?

 

[Ramona122003]

Well, I really doubt Nurse Lee would have left these things there. Vitamins are generally yellow in color and Iron is a reddish brown. Vitamin B injections are red. The only IV nourishment that is white is 'fats' and they are kept in a refrigerator and they must be made at the time of infusion. Those are TPN (Parenteral Nutrition) and it makes no sense he would have needed that or that she would have given him that at all.

Generally, when you administer you don't leave the IV things around; you dispose of them. I was unaware that she gave them through IV though.

As far as proof and what the authorities know that we don't is what is the drug history and they can get that from the hair, brain tissues and other things.

To make a conviction here it is not necessary to know this. What is necessary to know is what Murray actually gave Michael; how much he gave and whether it was administered legally and correctly. In other words, was Murray licensed to give this medicine and where did he get it? Was he following guidelines that are safe for practice? Was he even monitoring his patient?

My point was that in that raid that could had been alot of different reasons for the IV. Also, the list only said a white milky substance was found, which is the same color as Propofol. However, it is not identified and I think the police would had tested an unknown substance to make sure it wasn't anything illegal. Even though Propofol is not a control substance, I am sure it would had been a red flag for the DA and double check his house again. Especially, since Michael does not have a medical degree and had no business owning the drug since he cannot buy it himself.

Also, Nurse Lee was not employ during that time period so that is a moot point. However, she did say in an interview that she gave Michael vitamins through an IV drip when she was working for him because of some decency.

And Michael's drug history had already been expose through the tox report. Only the amount is missing. Also, they can only track through a year or more through samples, not the entire life history. The organs tell that story and it seems to be a clean one.

Btw, the IV stuff was about the Neverland Raid, not current events.

 

[RainbowAngel]

Originally Posted by RainbowAngel
I think the problem is "drug addiction" in medical context and hollywood context is different.

Can you please expand on this? I would like to know your theory.

haha. I don't know any theories!
But I know from what I'd learned from uni is that

-drug addiction : a brain disorder characterize by cravings of the drug and wanting more amount of it.

-drug dependance : A person is dependance on a drug when the drug is needed in order for the person to funtion normally.

- drug tolarance : More amount of the drug is needed to produce the same effect of the lower amount of dose which was previously used.

However, I'm sure hollywood trend do not define it acording to the medical context. Drug addiction for them is more of a drug abuse and normally involve illegal drugs like coccaine. They label drug addicts as bad people.
Michael only took precription drugs and he always consulted the doctors before using it as far as I know. The problem is the doctors are enablers that didn't help him but give him more drugs.

 

[lovelymj]

The doctors are messed up in this country. No wonder people become addicted.

 

[Beachlover]

The doctors are messed up in this country. No wonder people become addicted.

I think it goes both ways. Many people insist on taking narcotics for pain and refuse to hear otherwise.

 

[Bo G]

It's amazing how some people here seems to know lots of pharmaceutical and medicine stuffs. ... did they self-educate themself to try to figure out what was really going on with their favorite idol?

Yes, it's true, I'm willing to sacrifice my very body to vindicate Michael Jackson.

I couldn't get him to make use of it before, so it's the least I can do now.

 

[Ramona122003]

I think it goes both ways. Many people insist on taking narcotics for pain and refuse to hear otherwise.

If you are in pain and you know a certain medicine takes it away, I do not think you really care if it harmful. There were times I hurt so bad that I wanted to take the part that hurt and rip it from my body. So, I do not blame people for begging for relief.

It is up to the doctors to remain firm and think of the well-being of the patient. Because when a person is hurting badly, that person is not thinking straight.

 

[Bo G]

The fact is we do not know and can we both agree on that?

:agree:

 

[lovelymj]

I think it goes both ways. Many people insist on taking narcotics for pain and refuse to hear otherwise.

Well the doctors shouldn't be giving unreasonable amounts of narcotics then, I work in a pharmacy and we never give narcotics to people who seem addicted, or have a long history taking narcotics. The doctors should know where to stop.

 

[MJJ:G.O.A.T]

Yes, it's true, I'm willing to sacrifice my very body to vindicate Michael Jackson.

I couldn't get him to make use of it before, so it's the least I can do now.

:lol:

LOL!!

MJ fans are no dummies, that's for sure!

Definitely not and this forum is additional proof. Some good discussion going on in this thread.