Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

[dancemasterman]

you'd have to be nuts to go t Murray. He proved without a doubt that when it comes time to choose between doing what is best for the patient and what is best for his own wallet he's going to choose his wallet.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

is it possible that the diprivan and other meds were just directly injected into a vein and not given through a continuas IV? were iv stands/bags found in the room cant remember what was said

 

[Beachlover]

is it possible that the diprivan and other meds were just directly injected into a vein and not given through a continuas IV? were iv stands/bags found in the room cant remember what was said

To my knowledge the Diprivan could have been given directly into a vein and not an IV. I did not read where they found IV stands or bags.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

so it is medically possible to do such a thing. and is more likely to cause an OD rather than just dripping it in over several hours hence the acute intoxication that the corroner ruled

 

[Beachlover]

so it is medically possible to do such a thing. and is more likely to cause an OD rather than just dripping it in over several hours hence the acute intoxication that the corroner ruled

Yes, and the CNN video showed exactly how fast that works.

 

[Soundmind]

this is what Justthefacts told me today :

A friend of mine told me today that Murray may have given Michael only 25 mil of Propofol but the way he gave it is what could have killed him. You do not push Propofol into an iv it is way to dangerous. It should be given through an iv drip slowly because given Propofol the way Murray said he gave it stops a person from breathing. The only people who can give Propofol the way Murray gave it is an anesthesiologist because they are trained to use the stuff. Murray doing that stopped Michael from breathing within seconds and he stayed in a room with a dead body for over an hour or he shot Michael full of that stuff and left him

For both justthefacts and elusive :

•Dosage

Because individual response to propofol is variable, dosage (including the infusion rate or amount and frequency of incremental doses) of the drug should be adjusted according to individual requirements and response, age, weight, clinical status (e.g., ASA physical status, degree of debilitation), blood lipid profile, underlying pathologic conditions (e.g., shock, intestinal obstruction, malnutrition, anemia, burns, advanced malignancy, ulcerative colitis, uremia, alcoholism), and the type and amount of premedication or concomitant medication(s) used. To provide adequate anesthesia in patients undergoing minor surgical procedures (e.g., on the body surface), propofol may be administered concomitantly with 60–70% nitrous oxide, while for major (e.g., intra-abdominal) surgical procedures or if nitrous oxide is not available or appropriate, administration rates of propofol and/or opiates may be increased. In general, the smallest effective dose should be used.

Induction and Maintenance of General Anesthesia

Adult Patients (Younger Than 55 Years of Age).

For induction of anesthesia, the manufacturers recommend that patients with ASA Physical Status I or II who have not been premedicated or those who received premedication with oral benzodiazepines or IM opiate agonists usually should receive 40 mg (2–2.5 mg/kg) of propofol every 10 seconds according to the patient’s response, until onset of induction. For maintenance of anesthesia in patients undergoing general surgery, the usual initial IV infusion rate of propofol is 100–200 mcg/kg per minute (6–12 mg/kg per hour), administered concomitantly with inhaled 60–70% nitrous oxide and oxygen. Immediately following induction, higher IV infusion rates of 150–200 mcg/kg per minute generally may be required for the first 10–15 minutes, and then decreased by 30–50% during the first 30 minutes of maintenance anesthesia. The manufacturers state that IV infusion rates of 50–100 mcg/kg per minute usually are used to optimize recovery times.

Alternatively, for maintenance anesthesia

so injecting mj with 25 mg quickly would not have caused mj to stop breathing because 25 mg was less than the initial dosage required and in many people it does not even do anything .

one thing also , he said he used to give him 50 mg everynight to sleep, 50 mg were only the initial dose and would not do anything . he would wake up after two or three minutes .

and by the way do some calculations and you will know 1000 mg of propofol were not enough to put mj 'out' for eight hours . 50 mg murray you moron .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

o injecting mj with 25 mg quickly would not have caused mj to stop breathing because 25 mg was less than the initial dosage required and in many people it does not even do anything .

was is murray actually saying he did. did he say he used a drip ala 40 mg every 10 seconds dripped in. or is he saying he injected the full amount straight in in one go

 

[Soundmind]

of VALIUM. JACKSON was unable to sleep and at approximately 0200 hours, MURRAY injectedJACKSON with 2mg LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONwas still unable to sleep. At approximately 0300 hours, MURRAY then administered 2mgMIDAZOLAM (VERSED) to JACKSON after dilution, also pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONremained awake and at approximately 0500 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSON remained awake and at approximately0730 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), after dilution, into hisIV. MURRAY stated he was continuously at JACKSON's bedside and was monitoring him with a pulseoximeter. According to DR. MURRAY, the pulse oximeter was connected to JACKS ON's finger andmeasured his pulse and oxygen statistics.

remained awake and at approximately 1040 hours, MURRAY finally administered 25mgof PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), diluted with LIDOCAINE (XYLOCAINE), via IV drip to keep JACKSONsedated, after repeated demands/requests from JACKSON. JACKSON finally went to sleep andMURRAY stated that he remained monitoring him. After approximately 10 minutes, MURRAY stated heleft JACKSON's side to go to the restroom and relieve himself. MURRAY stated he was out of the roomfor about 2 minutes maximum. Upon his return, MURRAY noticed that JACKSON was no longerbreathing. MURRAY began single man cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) at once. MURRAY alsoadministered .2mg of FLUMANEZIL (ANÉXATE) to JACKSON and called JACKSON's personalassistant, MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS,

 

[Soundmind]

murray is claiming he gave 25 mg only that night , it was given through an iv , so it took sometimes , certainly 25 mg would have finished even before murray left the room .

this is for Ramon , the bag was not found in the bathtube in the bathroom , the bag you are taking about is different, you are talking about the one recovered on 26 june after the family informed the police they found 'heroine' in mj's bedroom .


the bag murray told the investigators about on 27 june , was recovered from somewhere but no one mentioned the location . Janet came with two tracks and removed EVERYTHING from that house . obviously the bag was HIDDEN , murray told them where to find it and they seized it on 29 june AFTER janet removed everything . they said it was in the same exact location murray told them about . before you open your mouth Beachlover , the 8 propofol bottles found in that bag were all traced back to applied pharamcy , they mentioned that in the search warrant .

 

[xthunderx2]

of VALIUM. JACKSON was unable to sleep and at approximately 0200 hours, MURRAY injectedJACKSON with 2mg LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONwas still unable to sleep. At approximately 0300 hours, MURRAY then administered 2mgMIDAZOLAM (VERSED) to JACKSON after dilution, also pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONremained awake and at approximately 0500 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSON remained awake and at approximately0730 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), after dilution, into hisIV. MURRAY stated he was continuously at JACKSON's bedside and was monitoring him with a pulseoximeter. According to DR. MURRAY, the pulse oximeter was connected to JACKS ON's finger andmeasured his pulse and oxygen statistics.

remained awake and at approximately 1040 hours, MURRAY finally administered 25mgof PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), diluted with LIDOCAINE (XYLOCAINE), via IV drip to keep JACKSONsedated, after repeated demands/requests from JACKSON. JACKSON finally went to sleep andMURRAY stated that he remained monitoring him. After approximately 10 minutes, MURRAY stated heleft JACKSON's side to go to the restroom and relieve himself. MURRAY stated he was out of the roomfor about 2 minutes maximum. Upon his return, MURRAY noticed that JACKSON was no longerbreathing. MURRAY began single man cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) at once. MURRAY alsoadministered .2mg of FLUMANEZIL (ANÉXATE) to JACKSON and called JACKSON's personalassistant, MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS,

thank you for the information.....I just dont get how Murray can say he kept a pulse oximeter on Michael when it believe it was clearly stated that Murray used NO monitoring equipment.....hmmm...puzzling ..yeah??

 

[Beachlover]

murray is claiming he gave 25 mg only that night , it was given through an iv , so it took sometimes , certainly 25 mg would have been finished even before murray left the room .

I am assuming he meant that he left a concentrated drip of Propofol hanging which delivers that dose.

 

[Soundmind]

I am assuming he meant that he left a concentrated drip of Propofol hanging which delivers that dose.

so what blame it on the drip now? :smilerolleyes:

 

[CherubimII]

of VALIUM. JACKSON was unable to sleep and at approximately 0200 hours, MURRAY injectedJACKSON with 2mg LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONwas still unable to sleep. At approximately 0300 hours, MURRAY then administered 2mgMIDAZOLAM (VERSED) to JACKSON after dilution, also pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONremained awake and at approximately 0500 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSON remained awake and at approximately0730 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), after dilution, into hisIV. MURRAY stated he was continuously at JACKSON's bedside and was monitoring him with a pulseoximeter. According to DR. MURRAY, the pulse oximeter was connected to JACKS ON's finger andmeasured his pulse and oxygen statistics.

remained awake and at approximately 1040 hours, MURRAY finally administered 25mgof PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), diluted with LIDOCAINE (XYLOCAINE), via IV drip to keep JACKSONsedated, after repeated demands/requests from JACKSON. JACKSON finally went to sleep andMURRAY stated that he remained monitoring him. After approximately 10 minutes, MURRAY stated heleft JACKSON's side to go to the restroom and relieve himself. MURRAY stated he was out of the roomfor about 2 minutes maximum. Upon his return, MURRAY noticed that JACKSON was no longerbreathing. MURRAY began single man cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) at once. MURRAY alsoadministered .2mg of FLUMANEZIL (ANÉXATE) to JACKSON and called JACKSON's personalassistant, MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS,

"MURDER SHE WROTE!!!!" :bugeyed

 

[Soundmind]

thank you for the information.....I just dont get how Murray can say he kept a pulse oximeter on Michael when it believe it was clearly stated that Murray used NO monitoring equipment.....hmmm...puzzling ..yeah??

well, this so-called oximeter will nail murray's ass once the Time of Death is made known , he will have to explain how his bloody oximeter was telling him MJ was alive when the man was dead for hours . let him lie .-_- how is he going to explain ' he had a faint pulse when i found him ' , once the time of death is made known what defense murray has ? I was in denial , I thought he was alive ? what about your bloody oximeter ?

 

[Soundmind]

u can say that again.yet dont answer my question your not sandy the cow girl are you lol sound of mind will know what i mean

or girlinthemirror :smilerolleyes:

 

[daisydaisy]

was is murray actually saying he did. did he say he used a drip ala 40 mg every 10 seconds dripped in. or is he saying he injected the full amount straight in in one go

This is why I believe the 25mg dose murray SAID he gave MJ is, IMHO, false. If he did just give him 25mg by injection, not continuous IV, it would only have lasted about 10 mins for sedation, so what would be the point of that for treating insomnia? So Murray would have had to have either gave MJ a series of 'bolus' injections or set up a continous drip. His story about only giving 25mg does not make any sense to me. I believe Michael received a lot more than 25mg that night.

 

[daisydaisy]

well, this so-called oximeter will nail murray's ass once the Time of Death is made known , he will have to explain how his bloody oximeter was telling him MJ was alive when the man was dead for hours . let him lie .-_- how is he going to explain ' he had a faint pulse when i found him ' , once the time of death is made known what defense murray has ? I was in denial , I thought he was alive ? what about your bloody oximeter ?

V good point soundmind.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, I've read your (numerous) posts, and I must say I still don't know exactly what your POINT is, because it seems to shift around? Can you try to state your theory or position succinctly, and then we can try to fit the details of your posts into that? Would be appreciated.

Are you saying Murray was an idiot who acted alone and simply made a mistake?

I think Murray acted alone on that night.

Or, Murray was an idiot, but someone else killed Michael?

Of course that is possible too but I don't go with the theory that someone else went in and did something. I see no reason for anyone to do that. Of course, there are some fans who believe that theory. I do not believe anyone would have wanted to kill him for any reason.

Or, Murray was NOT an idiot and just made a mistake?

I am not sure if he was an idiot but he definitely made a mistake. Either his dosing was incorrect to begin with, there were chemicals/drugs built up in Michaels system that simply caught up with Michael or he hung the drip at a certain rate which was correct and Michael moved his arm and it started infusing too fast which can happen if it is not on an IV Infusion Pump because he does say he stayed for 10 minutes and would have noticed a problem if he had a pulse oximeter especially which I am questioning because they alarm if there is a problem. Whatever the reason, I believe only an idiot would leave their patient alone on that drug if thats what happened and it appears it did.

Or, everybody is lying? Or some people are lying? Which ones do you think are lying?

Or, the investigation was botched and you think no one will ever be arrested? So, Murray walks free?

This part causes me worry. I feel the house was not contained. The house was not searched thoroughly. They didn't even find the doctors bag until Murray pointed it out to them. That was after LaToya had been in the house, was it not? Also, anyone could have gone in the room and moved things around or put things in the room. We simply don't know and they don't either so how can you admit things as evidence if you don't know how it got there? You can't and neither can the police.

Or all, or none, of the above? Seriously. . . . . ???

Seriously, I took a long time to look up a Myer's Cocktail which is what Nurse Lee was supposedly giving Michael after I thought about the phone conversations while folding laundry one night.

I looked up the ingredients and the side effects and precautions and saw that there is Magnesium and Calcium. Magnesium can cause hot sensations or 'flush' sensations in the body. Propofol is needed in less concentration when you have given Magnesium. There are possible drug reactions. It just made me think 'what if". So, no one here has to think more on it but it just made me think what if she was still giving it to him and what if there was a reaction and what if he took it earlier that day or night and what if.........

So, no I have no proof of that. I just know that a phone call was made from MJ to her (he was not even supposedly on the phone) days before his death and a little light bulb went on in my head that made me just think about it. I know everyone here has read everything about the case and sometimes when you throw an idea out there into the pile someone else says something that can clarify the situation. Would it mean that the Propofol didn't actually cause the death? No. Would it mean that Murray gave something to his patient and was unaware of a possible side affect or reaction?

Some here will say it doesn't matter and he wasn't receiving it for months and I still ask the question why he would call her when it had been months since he spoke to her and she did not tell him Propofol was a good drug and had nothing to do with it so it makes me wonder why.

So, while many will say I am totally thinking wrong, it is my thoughts and I am entitled to think them. I don't really know what happened because as I have said over and over, I was not there.



Thank you for at least 'listening' to what I have said. I may be a rambling fool who makes no sense but in my mind this man should not have died and it could have been prevented.

 

[Beachlover]

before you open your mouth Beachlover , the 8 propofol bottles found in that bag were all traced back to applied pharamcy , they mentioned that in the search warrant .

Please try to not be nasty. I will do the same.

I don't know why you said that because I didn't dispute or have a problem with any of the drugs found in the medical bag. Apparently there were other vials found that were not in the medical bag. I might have been referring to those as not being able to be used as evidence.

I do not anywhere say Murray did not give the Propofol. I do no anywhere say that he did not obtain the drugs for Michael. I have no idea where he got all the bottles because 8 bottles is not enough for even a 4 week treatment with this drug.

 

[Beachlover]

so what blame it on the drip now? :smilerolleyes:

I don't know what you mean by that.

Murray hung the drip and that makes him responsible. I never said otherwise.

 

[Beachlover]

This is why I believe the 25mg dose murray SAID he gave MJ is, IMHO, false. If he did just give him 25mg by injection, not continuous IV, it would only have lasted about 10 mins for sedation, so what would be the point of that for treating insomnia? So Murray would have had to have either gave MJ a series of 'bolus' injections or set up a continous drip. His story about only giving 25mg does not make any sense to me. I believe Michael received a lot more than 25mg that night.

You are correct and I think the police may have simply not understood the drip and how it works and it was recorded that way. I think the explanation is just that simple.

The police should have the actual tape recordings word for word so it is only what we have read on the search warrant that is speculative.

 

[indranee]

of VALIUM. JACKSON was unable to sleep and at approximately 0200 hours, MURRAY injectedJACKSON with 2mg LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN) after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONwas still unable to sleep. At approximately 0300 hours, MURRAY then administered 2mgMIDAZOLAM (VERSED) to JACKSON after dilution, also pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSONremained awake and at approximately 0500 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg LORAZEPAM(ATIVAN), after dilution, pushed slowly into his IV. JACKSON remained awake and at approximately0730 hours, MURRAY administered another 2mg of MIDAZOLAM (VERSED), after dilution, into hisIV. MURRAY stated he was continuously at JACKSON's bedside and was monitoring him with a pulseoximeter. According to DR. MURRAY, the pulse oximeter was connected to JACKS ON's finger andmeasured his pulse and oxygen statistics.

remained awake and at approximately 1040 hours, MURRAY finally administered 25mgof PROPOFOL (DIPRIVAN), diluted with LIDOCAINE (XYLOCAINE), via IV drip to keep JACKSONsedated, after repeated demands/requests from JACKSON. JACKSON finally went to sleep andMURRAY stated that he remained monitoring him. After approximately 10 minutes, MURRAY stated heleft JACKSON's side to go to the restroom and relieve himself. MURRAY stated he was out of the roomfor about 2 minutes maximum. Upon his return, MURRAY noticed that JACKSON was no longerbreathing. MURRAY began single man cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) at once. MURRAY alsoadministered .2mg of FLUMANEZIL (ANÉXATE) to JACKSON and called JACKSON's personalassistant, MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS,

if... IF... this is true. Murray should have called 911 as soon as he got back from the restroom and saw Michael was not breathing. if had, Mike would have been still with us today.

 

[Ramona122003]

if... IF... this is true. Murray should have called 911 as soon as he got back from the restroom and saw Michael was not breathing. if had, Mike would have been still with us today.

He was too busy talking on the phone. -_-

 

[PCR]

aaagggggg!!!
I hate it when I see the name of this man around.

The only thing I would like to read about this person is that he admited what he did and at least he feels sorry. At least!!! Not to mention how much I want to read "Justice for Michael, finally"

aggggg

any updates on the investigation?

 

[Soundmind]

This is why I believe the 25mg dose murray SAID he gave MJ is, IMHO, false. If he did just give him 25mg by injection, not continuous IV, it would only have lasted about 10 mins for sedation, so what would be the point of that for treating insomnia? So Murray would have had to have either gave MJ a series of 'bolus' injections or set up a continous drip. His story about only giving 25mg does not make any sense to me. I believe Michael received a lot more than 25mg that night.

read this then :

Propofol for ED Procedural Sedation — How Good Is It?
Patient satisfaction was high and side effects were few in this small study.


Propofol, an ultra–short-acting sedation agent that might cause hypotension and transient apnea, is becoming increasingly popular for procedural sedation. Canadian researchers prospectively evaluated efficacy, safety, and patient satisfaction in 113 patients (mean age, 50; 62% male) who received propofol for procedural sedation in the emergency department during a 2-year period. The procedures included orthopedic reductions (44%), cardioversion (37%), and abscess incision and drainage (13%).

Clinicians administered propofol according to a standardized protocol at an initial dose of 0.25 to 0.50 mg/kg by slow intravenous infusion followed by 10 to 20 mg/minute, titrating to patient sedation. Preoxygenation and use of supplemental fentanyl were at the discretion of the treating physician. Mean propofol dose was 113 mg (1.6 mg/kg), mean time to sedation was 5.8 minutes, mean procedure duration was 1.8 minutes, and mean recovery time was 7.6 minutes. Ninety percent of procedures were completed successfully. No patient became apneic, but one patient who was breathing room air vomited and desaturated to less than 90%, requiring supplemental oxygen. No patient experienced clinically significant hypotension or any other major complication. All patients reported that they were satisfied or very satisfied with the procedure, and 94% had no recall of the procedure.

Comment: Propofol has almost perfect onset, duration, and elimination profiles for use in the ED for short procedures, but it does not provide analgesia. Surprisingly, only one in six patients in this study received fentanyl. Although fentanyl might increase the likelihood of respiratory depression, an analgesic is important when using propofol during painful procedures. Furthermore, preoxygenation, supplemental oxygen, and continuous capnography should be considered mandatory, not optional, with deep sedation such as that achieved with propofol. Overall, this small study might have been insufficiently powered to determine the true incidence of important complications (apnea or hypotension), but it nevertheless reinforces the findings of others that demonstrate safe and effective use of propofol for sedation in the ED.

— Kristi L. Koenig, MD, FACEP

Published in Journal Watch Emergency Medicine January 4, 2008

Citation(s):
Zed PJ et al. Efficacy, safety and patient satisfaction of propofol for procedural sedation and analgesia in the emergency department: A prospective study. CJEM 2007 Nov; 9:421.

You are correct and I think the police may have simply not understood the drip and how it works and it was recorded that way. I think the explanation is just that simple.

The police should have the actual tape recordings word for word so it is only what we have read on the search warrant that is speculative.

Beachlover, drip , injection or whatever , HE LIED , and 25 mg given at once would not have killed mj , and sure would not have sedated him for "approximately ten minutes ":smilerolleyes:. before he went to "relieve himself for two minutes "

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, drip , injection or whatever , HE LIED , and 25 mg given at once would not have killed mj , and sure would not have sedated him for "approximately ten minutes ":smilerolleyes:. before he went to "relieve himself for two minutes "

This is your opinion.

 

[Soundmind]

This is your opinion.

show me evidence it is my opinion :rofl:

 

[Beachlover]

show me evidence it is my opinion :rofl:

Unless you were in the room and saw what he gave you don't really know what he gave or how he administered it.

 

[Soundmind]

I'm going by what that idiot said , that idiot told the police he gave 25 mg of propofol that night , and he used to give mj 50 mg before . neither 25 nor 50 mg makes any sense . did you read the article carefully 113 mg were enough to SEDATE for 5.8 minutes .

 

[Beachlover]

I'm going by what that idiot said , that idiot told the police he gave 25 mg of propofol that night , and he used to give mj 50 mg before . neither 25 nor 50 mg makes any sense . did you read the article carefully 113 mg were enough to SEDATE for 5.8 minutes .

Sure I read the article. I also work in the medical field and I have seen it used before my very eyes on real people. I also read what he gave before he gave the Propofol.