Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

[Autumn II]

Yet you accused him in your other post of running away. I merely said he went to get a lawyer which you should have realized. I would NEVER talk to the cops in that situation without one but yet you think Murray should?

I am responding to the totality of your numerous posts, finally, and I really have nothing to lose by telling the truth. I'm responding to ALL of them, which I've read and pondered, very, very carefully. Murray did not have to talk to cops, of course. The totality of his behavior is suspect. He WAS the last doctor standing. Instead of RUNNING from the hospital (his girlfriend no doubt picked him up), he could have had the decency to at least say, "I will answer no questions without an attorney." I do not question that race plays a part. I KNOW that it does, but let that not baffle the truth. What I do question is his behavior, ongoing. I also am questioning why, out of all people in this thread. . out of ALL people, you are defending him, when he was clearly the last person to see Michael alive.

I'll repeat, if you think you are helping him. . you are not.

I am being very careful about the rules of the board, and about respect, and about not calling names . . . . but one cannot help but notice that out of all these 20-some thousand people here, you are the ONLY one defending/providing excuses for.. .Murray, and at the end-of-the-day, many of us are questioning WHY?

Vic

 

[Autumn II]

What is a bolus? I think that happened to me in the hospital last year.

I was on an IV drip and I moved my arm I guess in the wrong way in my sleep and the tissue in my arm started to expand with the fluid that was coming from the IV. I remember waking up and my arm looked like Popeye - very swollen and discolored. I immediately pushed the button for the nurse and she was horrified and was very upset that the previous nurse didn't put my IV in correctly. I remember the nurse saying I was a "hard stick" because I lost so much blood, but it was no excuse for what the previous nurse did. She said the IV work was shotty.

A "bolus" is a sudden, "pushed" infusion, by injection, of a drug through an I.V. that is already in-place. The I.V line is in-place, though a catheter (plastic tube), through the skin, into a vein in the hand or arm (or elsewhere, depending). The bolus is a rapid administration of a drug, into the line that is already there. What happened to you was NOT that. When placing an I.V., it must go directly into a vein. If the needle and subsequent catheter misses the vein, the fluids go into the surrounding tissue and cause swelling, because of the mis-placed needle and catheter.

The I.V. catheter can provide a continues drip of. . whatever, depending on how it's calibrated. In terms of Michael, he usually lost SO much weight while performing on tour, it is not unreasonable to assume he'd have to have I.V. hydration (administration of fluids) after a concert. What we do NOT know, is if he really was having I.V. propofol, or just fluids when on tour, or before he died.

Here's the thing about an I.V. It can save lives by bringing blood-pressure up, when it is low, or by administering nutrition or medications. Having a I.V. is also incredibly dangerous, if not done right. A "bolus" can deliver a killing drug, with no time to react. It's a direct line. . to the heart. We do not KNOW what happened to Michael. . .

 

[Beachlover]

Victoria, it was my understanding that Murray did speak to the police in the hospital but he did not want to stay and talk further. Not defending him, just saying....

I choose not to convict him based on his ethnic background, marital status, financial status, how many children he has, etc. I try really hard not to judge because someone who is no longer on this earth taught me that.

Do I believe he is guilty? YES. Do I believe everything that is said about him. No. I also will continue to 'correct' errors that we make here because I really do know medicine and it is best to stick to 'facts' and not go off in a direction with misinformation.

I will, however, try not to put in my opinions as I see it is confusing people here and I'm sorry about that.

 

[AllForMJ]

When this thing finally makes its way into a courtroom, I hope fans will attend just like they did in Santa Maria and then we will know what is really what without having to rely on media reports.

When we only have their reports to rely on it causes us to argue amongst ourselves which is their aim.

 

[Autumn II]

Beachlover, see your PM.

Thanks,

Vic

 

[bgz]

I am seriously disheartened by the direction this thread has taken. Basically, it is no longer a discussion.

 

[Soundmind]

bgz , this is still a discussion , we presented medical evidence which proves everything murray claimed was lies yet Beachlover still is desperately trying to shif the blame to anyone but him . those doses he gave would not have killed MJ, 25 mg of propofol would not have killed mj .

 

[Beachlover]

bgz , this is still a discussion , we presented medical evidence which proves everything murray claimed was lies yet Beachlover still is desperately trying to shif the blame to anyone but him . those doses he gave would not have killed MJ, 25 mg of propofol would not have killed mj .

Ok...lemme give this one more shot.

It is painfully obvious that Murray isn't telling the truth but where was he telling the truth and where was he lying? Let me give you a bolus infusion of Versed and then follow that up with 25 of Propofol and you can apologize after we take the breathing tube out of your throat.

 

[bgz]

bgz , this is still a discussion , we presented medical evidence which proves everything murray claimed was lies yet Beachlover still is desperately trying to shif the blame to anyone but him . those doses he gave would not have killed MJ, 25 mg of propofol would not have killed mj .

I really feel like I'm in an alternate universe. I've re-read everything multiple times. Guilt is being placed on Murray, but possible explanations which are without a doubt plausible in a situation from 39 yrs of hands on medical experience are being misinterpreted to infer that it is being stated that Murray in innocent. That is not what is being said, I see no one saying that Murray is without a doubt not guilty of gross misconduct, but only offering up explanations of things that are brought up, such as an infiltrated iv. Wouldn't make any difference if it was inflitrated or not, guilt lies in Murray's neglect/handling of the entire situation.

:no:

 

[xthunderx2]

Ok...lemme give this one more shot.

It is painfully obvious that Murray isn't telling the truth but where was he telling the truth and where was he lying? Let me give you a bolus infusion of Versed and then follow that up with 25 of Propofol and you can apologize after we take the breathing tube out of your throat.

I am going to say this with much respect......but please tell me what it is you dont understand that Murray is GUILTY...HE KILLED MICHAEL......I dont really care anymore about your nursing degree that you hold....YOU are DEFENDING a MURDERER.....Only you ....why do you feel the need to do this.....why cant you just admit the facts.....and this post that yu posted to this person was VERY RUDE.

 

[Soundmind]

Ok...lemme give this one more shot.

It is painfully obvious that Murray isn't telling the truth but where was he telling the truth and where was he lying? Let me give you a bolus infusion of Versed and then follow that up with 25 of Propofol and you can apologize after we take the breathing tube out of your throat.

first of all versed was not a contributing factor , second murray claimed he gave 2mg of midazolam 3 hours before propofol, the duration of action for a cumulative dose of 5 mg of versed is 30 minutes .and murray gave less than half and it did not even work according to him

and murray did not say he gave mj a 25 mg injection of propofol, he said he gave him only 25 mg of propofol through an iv drip . again did you read the case I posted , the man was injecting himself with a NORMAL dose of 2-25 mg/kg in mj's case it would have been 130+ mg . and this is an injection not an iv drip .

and you still did not tell me how murray is going to explain to the jurors why he delayed MJ removal to UCLA for 43 minutes even though it was only 3 minutes away ?

 

[Beachlover]

first of all versed was not a contributing factor , second murray claimed he gave 2mg of midazolam 3 hours before propofol, the duration of action for a cumulative dose of 5 mg of versed is 30 minutes .and murray gave less than half and it did not even work according to him

and murray did not say he gave mj a 25 mg injection of propofol, he said he gave him only 25 mg of propofol through an iv drip . again did you read the case I posted , the man was injecting himself with a NORMAL dose of 2-25 mg/kg in mj's case it would have been 130+ mg . and this is an injection not an iv drip .

and you still did not tell me how murray is going to explain to the jurors why he delayed MJ removal to UCLA for 43 minutes even though it was only 3 minutes away ?

We can go in circles here but the bottom line is that if I gave you all that was supposedly given to MJ that night you'd be sleeping. There isn't a lot of research on Propofol being taken by injection like that and there are unwanted side effects of all drugs at times and we really don't know. I'm not defending Murray. Pieces of this puzzle are missing.

I don't believe the times are correct; if those drugs were given I don't believe Michael was awake the whole time.

Now, regarding how Murray is going to explain the removal to UCLA. You know....I sit here scratching my head on half of what happened or didn't happen that night and I am still not understanding WHY the man didn't have proper resuscitation equpment there. Hey....its not my job to know why he didn't take him cause I will be darned if I can figure that one out either.

I can't figure out why the paramedics allowed that either so what do I know? I only say if it were ME and I came on that scene no doctor would stop me from calling my chief and saying "HOUSTON...WE HAVE A PROBLEM"

On the other hand, the whole thing sounds like a tangled mass of lies....so I don't know any more.

 

[Beachlover]

Soundmind, I wanted to say this much.

You do great research and I realize you put a lot of effort into this and you do understand a lot of this medical stuff. I have a problem with the times and the doses and the whys and have come to the conclusion that we really are missing a lot of information so its very hard to know things one way or another.

I mean, on the outside it looks like a slam dunk but when I sit and think about it long and hard, there are things I don't understand. I don't get how a doctor with no blemish on his medical record can be such an idiot. Of course, he has an awful lot to answer to.

 

[Soundmind]

We can go in circles here but the bottom line is that if I gave you all that was supposedly given to MJ that night you'd be sleeping. There isn't a lot of research on Propofol being taken by injection like that and there are unwanted side effects of all drugs at times and we really don't know. I'm not defending Murray. Pieces of this puzzle are missing.

I don't believe the times are correct; if those drugs were given I don't believe Michael was awake the whole time.

Now, regarding how Murray is going to explain the removal to UCLA. You know....I sit here scratching my head on half of what happened or didn't happen that night and I am still not understanding WHY the man didn't have proper resuscitation equpment there. Hey....its not my job to know why he didn't take him cause I will be darned if I can figure that one out either.

I can't figure out why the paramedics allowed that either so what do I know? I only say if it were ME and I came on that scene no doctor would stop me from calling my chief and saying "HOUSTON...WE HAVE A PROBLEM"

On the other hand, the whole thing sounds like a tangled mass of lies....so I don't know any more.

:scratch:

 

[bgz]

While I comprehend that a physician supercedes a paramedic's control of a situation, "HOUSTON...WE HAVE A PROBLEM" would most certainly have crossed my mind as well. I would really like to have been a fly on the wall to hear what was said behind the scenes by the paramedics after this tragic situation. Unless there is a truckload of things we've not been privy to, which is entirely possible, I can only imagine the discussions that have been held by that paramedic team since that tragic day. And I'm pretty sure the paramedics' description of everything and anything has been documented for their own liability as well as for investigation. Maybe I'm wrong, but this whole scenario has most likely been played out to the utmost during the investigation.

 

[Beachlover]

I am inclined to believe that truckload of things too and I also want to know what these guys really saw.

I don't know if we will ever know if the case pleads out.

 

[Soundmind]

Victoria, it was my understanding that Murray did speak to the police in the hospital but he did not want to stay and talk further. Not defending him, just saying....
I choose not to convict him based on his ethnic background, marital status, financial status, how many children he has, etc. I try really hard not to judge because someone who is no longer on this earth taught me that.

Do I believe he is guilty? YES. Do I believe everything that is said about him. No. I also will continue to 'correct' errors that we make here because I really do know medicine and it is best to stick to 'facts' and not go off in a direction with misinformation.

I will, however, try not to put in my opinions as I see it is confusing people here and I'm sorry about that.

Upon arrival,MURRAY met with Dr. R. COOPER, the physician in charge of the emergency department. MURRAYtold COOPER he had given JACKSON two separate 2mg doses of LORAZEPAM (ATIVAN), during thecourse of the night. COOPER and her team attempted to revive JACKSON with negative results.COOPER pronounced JACKSON's death at 1426 hours. MURRAY refused to sign the death certificate,and the Los Angeles Coroner's Office was summoned to the hospital. Los Angeles Police Department(LAPD) Robbery Homicide Division (RHD) Detectives Smith, Serial No. 25301, and your affiant wereassigned to assist the Coroner's office conduct a death investigation. Upon arrival at UCLA MedicalCenter, neither the coroner's investigators nor detectives could locate MURRAY to re-interview him.Repeated attempts at contacting and locating MURRAY were unsuccessful.

he run before they arrived .

 

[Beachlover]

Upon arrival at UCLA MedicalCenter, neither the coroner's investigators nor detectives could locate MURRAY to re-interview him.

he run before they arrived .

It said RE interview; meaning they had interviewed him already.

 

[Soundmind]

the fact that murray felt he had to call his girlfriend in Houston and make her listen to him performing CPR on MJ is enough indication MJ was dead way before the paramedics arrived , and one very important thing the fact that murray claimed mj got propofol only after 10.40 am is an indication he was seen outside that bedroom before that particular time and he felt the need to emphasize mj was alive at the time and was not under propofol . the actual TOD will nail Murray , just wait and see .

 

[Soundmind]

It said RE interview; meaning they had interviewed him already.

reinterview him after the UCLA doctors interviewed him .

 

[bgz]

You know, what I really want to re-iterate in case it has been overlooked is that I am not and I really do not think Beachlover and what I'm saying is a defense for Murray and his actions in any way, shape or form, but to verbalize things from a medical point of view. I am not trying to stick up for or defend anything Murray did. It is more than fairly obvious that something doesn't add up, and Murray is the only one at this point that appears to be personally responsible or at least involved with everything up to this point, as well as the potential for others in multiple other arenas. There most certainly could be many other players and scenarois in this. What I'm going on is strictly what has been reported on by all levels of the media/legal releases.

What I post, and I'm assuming Beachlover is as well, is what we know from medical experience. Is everything relevant to the case being reported- most likely not. It's a homicide investigation. Is everything making sense from a medical point of view? Hell no. Should we expect EVERYTHING pro and con in the case to be revealed to the public; well if you belive that I've got a bridge in NY up for sale. Something isn't right, never has been. But ultimately, pieces are missing, alot of them. Until this is played out in the court of law, and that may be iffy at best, all we can give is our interpretation of what has been revealed legitimately thus far, and we will judge by what is presented to us, by what our heart's dictate, and somewhere in inbetween.

Please do not deem me as a hater, or anyone else that has come across as someone wanting to learn the whole story. There is no question about Michael as a humanitarian, incredibly gifted person, loving and caring soul, devoted father, visionary, musicial royalty. From a medical point of view, there are questions, and there are medical facts, lots of them that do not have anything to do with fandom. They are what they are.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

nd I'm pretty sure the paramedics' description of everything and anything has been documented for their own liability as well as for investigation. Maybe I'm wrong, but this whole scenario has most likely been played out to the utmost during the investigation.

their info will be very important imo. as they were the first ppl to get there.

What I post, and I'm assuming Beachlover is as well, is what we know from medical experience. Is everything relevant to the case being reported- most likely not. It's a homicide investigation. Is everything making sense from a medical point of view? Hell no. Should we expect EVERYTHING pro and con in the case to be revealed to the public; well if you belive that I've got a bridge in NY up for sale. Something isn't right, never has been. But ultimately, pieces are missing, alot of them. Until this is played out in the court of law, and that may be iffy at best, all we can give is our interpretation of what has been revealed legitimately thus far, and we will judge by what is presented to us, by what our heart's dictate, and somewhere in inbetween.

of course. at this stage all we can do is form opinions/theories based on what we know (info from murray,search warrants etc) until the prosecution case is laid out at this time we can only use common sense in working out what the case will be. and pick murray apart from the nonsensical things hes said

 

[elusive moonwalker]

slight off topic but the below is intresting.took it from kop board. do u think its just the way its worded or it really means something?

from kop

I don't know if anybody else read the Motion from the Court filed this past Friday, November 20th... but the Motion signed by the judge approving the unsealing of the search warrant refers to the investigation as a "murder" investigation. See for yourself. Page 2, towards the end of the 1st paragraph:

MURDER INVESTIGATION!!!

The court referring to it as a murder investigation rather than homicide is new.


http://www.etonline.com/documents/cmurrayaffidavit_et.PDF

 

[twinklEE]

slight off topic but the below is intresting.took it from kop board. do u think its just the way its worded or it really means something?

from kop

I don't know if anybody else read the Motion from the Court filed this past Friday, November 20th... but the Motion signed by the judge approving the unsealing of the search warrant refers to the investigation as a "murder" investigation. See for yourself. Page 2, towards the end of the 1st paragraph:

MURDER INVESTIGATION!!!

The court referring to it as a murder investigation rather than homicide is new.


http://www.etonline.com/documents/cmurrayaffidavit_et.PDF

I really do hope that they are going for murder rather than negligence hence the delay.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

thats what ive always presumed the delay is for.after this delay it better be murder 2 via negligence..but intresting that its written there. but as i said maybe its just the wording of the judge i dunno?

 

[StaceyMJ]

That is interesting...lets hope that's what this wait is all about.

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

How can this piece of crap NOT be arrested? Isn't it illegal to adminster that shit OUTSIDE of a hospital? He did....how the f can he still be walking freely without any problems? He committed a crime..what he did was a crime...oh man really, f this world and it's bullshit.

 

[daisydaisy]

first of all versed was not a contributing factor , second murray claimed he gave 2mg of midazolam 3 hours before propofol, the duration of action for a cumulative dose of 5 mg of versed is 30 minutes .and murray gave less than half and it did not even work according to him

and murray did not say he gave mj a 25 mg injection of propofol, he said he gave him only 25 mg of propofol through an iv drip . again did you read the case I posted , the man was injecting himself with a NORMAL dose of 2-25 mg/kg in mj's case it would have been 130+ mg . and this is an injection not an iv drip .

and you still did not tell me how murray is going to explain to the jurors why he delayed MJ removal to UCLA for 43 minutes even though it was only 3 minutes away ?

I totally agree, this is exactly my opinion too.

 

[Ramona122003]

How can this piece of crap NOT be arrested? Isn't it illegal to adminster that shit OUTSIDE of a hospital? He did....how the f can he still be walking freely without any problems? He committed a crime..what he did was a crime...oh man really, f this world and it's bullshit.

It is not a control subject, so it is not illegal to administer outside a hospital. Since he is not officially charge yet, he still have the right to work. It is up to the medical board in this case to take his license. In cases like this, that rarely happens until charges are at least made.

 

[Soundmind]

The medical Board is now asking for the licences of the doctors who were prescribing to Anna Nicole smith be suspended . so I'm sure something similar will happen to Murray . one of the doctors replied the medical board did not consider them threat to the public for 1 and 1/2 year .I'm sure when the DA will press charges against murray the medical board will take action .


by the way thank you elusive for the 'murder' link . it is indeed very interesting , the judge got a call from the investigator in this case, so probably he was told it became a murder investigation .