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Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

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we cant discuss it with u if u dont put your theory out there
 
elusive moonwalker said:
and your theory is? cause its easy to say all these little things to put doubts in ppl minds but u never back up what u are saying. is that your motive
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The actual search warrant, page 24 of 32 states "Inasmuch that it cannot be determined whether the cause of death is due to the actions of a single night and/or a single doctor, or the grossly negligent treatment of several doctors over an extended period of time, your affiant believes these medical records are germane to the ongoing death investigation"

It does not say that one dose of Propofol on one night caused his death, yet everyone here believes it has.

The search warrant is asking for medical records from several medical practitioners to find out what they were giving that may have lead up to MJ's death. Why do the police feel that it is important to have all these medical records but everyone here is telling me that it was all the cause of one physician? I am backing up what I am saying and showing a direct quote from the search warrants. I have shown in these warrants that Nurse Lee did not give her records and it has been excused away. Other physicians gave their records, but she did not because only she was correct in withholding them? All the other doctors should not have given their records when asked by police?

You are asking me to believe that a phone call came days before MJ's death that went to Nurse Lee and I am being told that he had hot/cold sensation on his body and no one brought him to the hospital even though told to do so but I should blindly believe that this happened because she was the only one he trusted? Yet he did not act on her advice anyway so why bother calling? A phone call that can be traced by phone records and not denied.

All this information from Nurse Lee came out after Murray mentioned her to the police by the way.

So, yes, of course I am to believe that Dr Murray alone is responsible for this because he is a bad doctor and a liar and tried to cover up.

Ok look. I don't KNOW what happened and if I KNEW what happened I'd call the police and tell them but I was not there in the house, I was not with MJ when he had this supposedly hot/cold sensation that makes no sense to me in the first place.

Let me end it this way.

IF I am putting a 'doubt' in your mind, just imagine what will happen when there is a jury involved and everyone starts talking and defending themselves. I can give my opinion and you can all tell me I am an idiot and have no right to post here and I'm not a fan because I also believe to some extent that if this phone call really did take place and MJ really was having this hot/cold sensation and felt bad enough to seek medical attention....WHY OH WHY would he allow it to continue on after that?

If I punch you in the face and it hurts are you going to let me punch you in the face again or are you going to stop me?
 
t does not say that one dose of Propofol on one night caused his death, yet everyone here believes it has.
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so whats your theory.we all know what the COD is . u seem to be trying to pass the buck away from murray
 
Beachlover said:
The actual search warrant, page 24 of 32 states "Inasmuch that it cannot be determined whether the cause of death is due to the actions of a single night and/or a single doctor, or the grossly negligent treatment of several doctors over an extended period of time, your affiant believes these medical records are germane to the ongoing death investigation"

It does not say that one dose of Propofol on one night caused his death, yet everyone here believes it has.

The search warrant is asking for medical records from several medical practitioners to find out what they were giving that may have lead up to MJ's death. Why do the police feel that it is important to have all these medical records but everyone here is telling me that it was all the cause of one physician? I am backing up what I am saying and showing a direct quote from the search warrants. I have shown in these warrants that Nurse Lee did not give her records and it has been excused away. Other physicians gave their records, but she did not because only she was correct in withholding them? All the other doctors should not have given their records when asked by police?

You are asking me to believe that a phone call came days before MJ's death that went to Nurse Lee and I am being told that he had hot/cold sensation on his body and no one brought him to the hospital even though told to do so but I should blindly believe that this happened because she was the only one he trusted? Yet he did not act on her advice anyway so why bother calling? A phone call that can be traced by phone records and not denied.

All this information from Nurse Lee came out after Murray mentioned her to the police by the way.

So, yes, of course I am to believe that Dr Murray alone is responsible for this because he is a bad doctor and a liar and tried to cover up.

Ok look. I don't KNOW what happened and if I KNEW what happened I'd call the police and tell them but I was not there in the house, I was not with MJ when he had this supposedly hot/cold sensation that makes no sense to me in the first place.

Let me end it this way.

IF I am putting a 'doubt' in your mind, just imagine what will happen when there is a jury involved and everyone starts talking and defending themselves. I can give my opinion and you can all tell me I am an idiot and have no right to post here and I'm not a fan because I also believe to some extent that if this phone call really did take place and MJ really was having this hot/cold sensation and felt bad enough to seek medical attention....WHY OH WHY would he allow it to continue on after that?

If I punch you in the face and it hurts are you going to let me punch you in the face again or are you going to stop me?
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Okay Beachlover, however your theory is flawed and judgmental to boot.

First of all, no one once said to blindly follow Lee. Also, this is not surprising or new information. Think about it. The LAPD want to cover all there bases. They want to make sure that it was indeed a one night of Murray screwing up verses many night of taking a drug. They want to make sure it was not the later because the defense may used that argument and the stated wants to cut the legs off of any excuse Murray may come up with. So, of course they are checking A, B, and C. They wouldn't be good investigator if they just went with one theory and get caught with their pants down in court.

Also, Michael died of an overdose of Propofol. Not something that happen over a period of time. His autopsy, if true, proves that since he was by all means healthy. A member her posted what Propofol does to a person when addicted for a long time, it is on record. Michael does not show any of the signs. Also, Murray was the doctor supposedly give Michael Propofol for six weeks. So even if he died from it over time, it would still point back to Murray because he actually gave it to him.

We have already explain why Lee held back her records, but you have not given us anything what she had change. If she did change something, why in God's name would she wait until she told the entire media and everyone's eyes on her to change the record instead of changing it before she went on the news? Lee also didn't lawyer up, which tells me that she is confident in her statements. You also fail to tell us why Lee would lie about the phone call. What does she gain? Sorry, but saying she is lying for the sake of lying will not hold in court.

Yes Murray mentioned her in the interview, but Lee didn't even see the interview until after she came out. The media did not know what Murray told the police since Lee was the first one to tell the public about Propofol. So, I do not see how Lee would know exactly. She also never pointed the finger at Murray. All she said that Propofol maybe what killed Michael. She never once said who actually gave it to him. In that same warrant, Murray also claimed Michael had needle marks on his hands and feet. He did not, if the autopsy is true, which proves Murray is a liar.

Once again, you haven't proven anything. Everything the LAPD is doing is what investigation is suppose to do. Look at all the possible roads and cut out each one. So far, Lee is looking good because all evident so far shows that Michael died of an overdose of Propofol, not a long-term poisoning of it.

You also do not seem to mention that all Propofol so far have been trance to Murray. No one else is one the list. So, Murray looks like the lone doctor here.

You put doubt Beachlover, but all your statements are flawed and only show half truths. If you were to go to court with these statements, you are the one who would be ripped apart. So, we are all in the same boat. Stop playing the victim. If you can't handle the heat of a debate, then don't post.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
so whats your theory.we all know what the COD is . u seem to be trying to pass the buck away from murray
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Everyone has the theory that Murray overdosed him and left him for dead and tried to cover it up. Thats not exactly what the search warrant says. I am not the one who is passing the buck away from Murray. Read the warrant and see exactly what it says.

If they KNEW this was a clear overdose and one person was responsible why are they asking for his medical records from other physicians?

The police must have reason to believe others are involved somehow and they are the ones with the full coroners report.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Okay Beachlover, however your theory is flawed and judgmental to boot.

Also, Michael died of an overdose of Propofol. Not something that happen over a period of time.
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Go back to the direct quote from the actual search warrant issued by the police and tell me about the Propofol overdose again. They are NOT saying it was a one time shot.
 
it clears the system within an certain period of time.murray is the only person being looked at, many search warrants said that. he was named as being investigated for manslaughter.ofcourse they want all his medical records. they want to know what drugs he was taking over what period of time. and for what health issues.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Okay Beachlover, however your theory is flawed and judgmental to boot.

We have already explain why Lee held back her records, but you have not given us anything what she had change. If she did change something, why in God's name would she wait until she told the entire media and everyone's eyes on her to change the record instead of changing it before she went on the news? Lee also didn't lawyer up, which tells me that she is confident in her statements. You also fail to tell us why Lee would lie about the phone call. What does she gain? Sorry, but saying she is lying for the sake of lying will not hold in court.
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I am judging no one. I am simply saying that I don't believe everything someone says and this is no exception. I don't know what Lee actually gave MJ. You don't either. You may think you know and you may believe her story. I don't.

I already stated simply that the reason a person lies is to cover up the truth. You and I can go back and forth on this over and over and it does not change the fact that she did not give her records up when asked and I already said that I don't care what everyone here says. I think she is not telling the whole story. Thats my opinion and you can tell me I am flawed and judgmental all you want but people lie to cover up their actions and I don't believe her story to be totally true. Someone is covering something up.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
it clears the system within an certain period of time.murray is the only person being looked at, many search warrants said that. he was named as being investigated for manslaughter.ofcourse they want all his medical records. they want to know what drugs he was taking over what period of time. and for what health issues.
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Did you read the quote I posted. That is the cause of death.

Where does it say that one injection of Propofol given on one night is the cause of death? If he died of an overdose of medication on one night by the hand of another it doesn't matter what his health issues are or what other drugs he took were.
 
Beachlover said:
Go back to the direct quote from the actual search warrant issued by the police and tell me about the Propofol overdose again. They are NOT saying it was a one time shot.
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Read my full statement. The corona office said that Michael died of Propofol Intoxication. If he was poison overtime, then the tox would had reflected that. That is why I said he died of a Propofol overdose, because it is in the tox. I already stated why the LAPD is looking at every angel, so I won't repeat.

Even if he was poison overtime, guess what, it still goes back to Murray. He claimed himself to have given Michael Propofol for six weeks. So, it is not hard to conculd that Murray poison him to death in that case. Even if Lee gave him Propofol when she was there, that was mouths ago. Since he did not die, what are they going to charge her with? Especially when you have a doctor who admitted to given Propofol over a period of weeks.

She also have blood tests to show she gave him nothing harmful, unless you are going to tell me she somehow corrupted them, but only decided to alter them when she went to the media.

Once again, half-baked theories.
 
Beachlover said:
I am judging no one. I am simply saying that I don't believe everything someone says and this is no exception. I don't know what Lee actually gave MJ. You don't either. You may think you know and you may believe her story. I don't.

I already stated simply that the reason a person lies is to cover up the truth. You and I can go back and forth on this over and over and it does not change the fact that she did not give her records up when asked and I already said that I don't care what everyone here says. I think she is not telling the whole story. Thats my opinion and you can tell me I am flawed and judgmental all you want but people lie to cover up their actions and I don't believe her story to be totally true. Someone is covering something up.
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I have no problem with doubts. What I have a problem with is doubt without proper cause. You do not have proper cause. You have the right to your feelings, but your feelings are not backed up by the current facts.

You seem to think Lee is hiding something, but you have no clue what it is. Sorry, but that does not fly here or in a court of law. So, you have no right to tell other people what to think if you have nothing solid to back it up.

We gave the facts why we give Lee the benefice of a a doubt. You have not prove your point, so you should expect the outcome that you have gotten.
 
Beachlover said:
Did you read the quote I posted. That is the cause of death.

Where does it say that one injection of Propofol given on one night is the cause of death? If he died of an overdose of medication on one night by the hand of another it doesn't matter what his health issues are or what other drugs he took were.
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Beachlover, they were asking for his medical records before the tox came out. They were not sure if Propofol killed him with a contubute to his health. They also wanted to see if he was indeed taking something else during that time period. Like any good investigation, they want to kill any defense Murray can mount.

That includes making Michael an out of control drug addict or someone who was unhealthy and the Propofol just push him over the edge. So, what is your point. These points were brought up during the weeks before the tox when defense lawyer were trying to see what kind of defense Murray may mount. So, once again, what is your point?
 
Ramona122003 said:
In that same warrant, Murray also claimed Michael had needle marks on his hands and feet. He did not, if the autopsy is true, which proves Murray is a liar.
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When I read the warrants it did not say that Murray said this happened in the weeks or days before MJ's death. It stated "At one time" I believe. So how did Murray lie?

I see everyone is quick here to say that Murray is lying (maybe he is) but everyone else is telling the truth.

You are very quick to believe that the reponders could not tell that MJ was dead because he had no skin color. So when they got there did they see he was dead or not? You jump around that issue yourself. Either they knew or they didn't know. Yes they could do blood pressure and heart monitor but that shows only what was happening at that minute.

If you are going to say that MJ was already dead for at least an hour because when the rescue workers there said this and saw this then you can't say in the next sentence that they couldn't tell because of his skin color how long he was dead. Then talk of lividity in the same paragraph and say they were not sure? You tell me I have a circular argument but what is this?

He could have died the second they walked in the door and Murray was frantically trying to revive him and was afraid to move him and lose him.
 
Beachlover said:
Did you read the quote I posted. That is the cause of death.

Where does it say that one injection of Propofol given on one night is the cause of death? If he died of an overdose of medication on one night by the hand of another it doesn't matter what his health issues are or what other drugs he took were.
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your making no sense. diprivan clears the system very quickly. are u trying to accuse klien for example of killing mj by saying he gave mj diprivan 3 months earlier.. murray is the one being investigated for manslaughter no one else. hes the one who injected it on the 25th.
 
In any case, yes, I am probably blowing smoke out of my behind and don't have my facts straight and everyone here has been watching all of this more carefully and I don't really know what I am talking about so its best I just stick to the other threads.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
your making no sense. diprivan clears the system very quickly. are u trying to accuse klien for example of killing mj by saying he gave mj diprivan 3 months earlier.. murray is the one being investigated for manslaughter no one else. hes the one who injected it on the 25th.
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Yes, I understand now that I don't know what I am saying so we will just leave it at that.
 
I see everyone is quick here to say that Murray is lying (maybe he is) but everyone else is telling the truth.
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well u seem to be doing the opposite
 
Beachlover said:
Yes, I understand now that I don't know what I am saying so we will just leave it at that.
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u can say that again.yet dont answer my question your not sandy the cow girl are you lol sound of mind will know what i mean
 
Beachlover said:
When I read the warrants it did not say that Murray said this happened in the weeks or days before MJ's death. It stated "At one time" I believe. So how did Murray lie?

I see everyone is quick here to say that Murray is lying (maybe he is) but everyone else is telling the truth.

You are very quick to believe that the reponders could not tell that MJ was dead because he had no skin color. So when they got there did they see he was dead or not? You jump around that issue yourself. Either they knew or they didn't know. Yes they could do blood pressure and heart monitor but that shows only what was happening at that minute.

If you are going to say that MJ was already dead for at least an hour because when the rescue workers there said this and saw this then you can't say in the next sentence that they couldn't tell because of his skin color how long he was dead. Then talk of lividity in the same paragraph and say they were not sure? You tell me I have a circular argument but what is this?

He could have died the second they walked in the door and Murray was frantically trying to revive him and was afraid to move him and lose him.
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You are twisting my statements.

They said he had no electric in his heart and no blood pressure at all, which is why they couldn't find a vain a poked him full of holes. So, he was too far gone in there eyes. However, Murray told them to work on him for 45 minutes. Michael had no trauma, so why didn't Murray ordered them to go to the hospital right away. You as a nurse should know that getting someone to intensive care as fast as possible saves lives. Not working on them at the house.

Like I said, they knew he was dead, but they didn't know how long. It was not until they saw the lividly they knew he was dead for awhile. So, what is it so hard to believe.

Murray has been caught in a lie so many times it is not funny. He changed the timeline at least 2 times. He failed to mention phone calls that he made for 45 minutes while he supposedly went to the bathroom for 10 minutes, and he lied about the involvement of others doctors. I think it is safe to say Murray is a liar.
 
Ramona122003 said:
Murray has been caught in a lie so many times it is not funny. He changed the timeline at least 2 times. He failed to mention phone calls that he made for 45 minutes while he supposedly went to the bathroom for 10 minutes, and he lied about the involvement of others doctors. I think it is safe to say Murray is a liar.
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I have not seen Murray give any further statements regarding this so I am not sure where you are getting the idea he changed his time line at least 2 times. During what interviews did he change his time lines?
 
Ramona122003 said:
They said he had no electric in his heart and no blood pressure at all, which is why they couldn't find a vain a poked him full of holes. So, he was too far gone in there eyes. However, Murray told them to work on him for 45 minutes.
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So, you are sure then that it was the Emergency Responders who poked Michael full of holes?

Why is it that you all know this information to be fact and yet I can't find those same facts anywhere.

I can't find ONE interview that was done of the responders themselves. All I can find is a statement from the Chief of that department stating what the responders saw and found but nothing from the responders themselves.

I also didn't find anything where they said they had to poke him full of holes.
 
I have not seen Murray give any further statements regarding this so I am not sure where you are getting the idea he changed his time line at least 2 times. During what interviews did he change his time lines?
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first timeline was "i found mj around 11am" he did not tell the police about the phonecalls made between that time and midday. when the police got his phone records and said this doesnt fit. murray changed the time line and said u got it wrong i found mj after midday. this is the one of the basics of the investigation yet now u are saying u dont even know about this
 
I can't find ONE interview that was done of the responders themselves. All I can find is a statement from the Chief of that department stating what the responders saw and found but nothing from the responders themselves.
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and. so u care calling the chief a liar?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
first timeline was "i found mj around 11am" he did not tell the police about the phonecalls made between that time and midday. when the police got his phone records and said this doesnt fit. murray changed the time line and said u got it wrong i found mj after midday. this is the one of the basics of the investigation yet now u are saying u dont even know about this
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See, this is one of those things where it is not on record in the same way as the other things. When did they re interview him? And do we have a clear document showing that he said that or was this from his lawyer or someone else?

Did the police re interview Murray?
 
Beachlover said:
Where did I say that? Show me where I said that.
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well u refuse to believe what the chief said as being truthfull otherwise u wouldnt be so obsessed about hearing it from the medics mouths themselves. if u didnt doubt it you wouldnt be asking for quotes direct from those ppl.they wont be saying anything until they testify
 
elusive moonwalker said:
well u refuse to believe what the chief said as being truthfull otherwise u wouldnt be so obsessed about hearing it from the medics mouths themselves. if u didnt doubt it you wouldnt be asking for quotes direct from those ppl.they wont be saying anything until they testify
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I didn't hear the chief say they poked MJ full of holes. I absolutely believe what the chief has said.
 
Beachlover said:
So, you are sure then that it was the Emergency Responders who poked Michael full of holes?

Why is it that you all know this information to be fact and yet I can't find those same facts anywhere.

I can't find ONE interview that was done of the responders themselves. All I can find is a statement from the Chief of that department stating what the responders saw and found but nothing from the responders themselves.

I also didn't find anything where they said they had to poke him full of holes.
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Why would the Chief lie about something like that. They worked under him and they report everything to him, so what does it matter if the responders personally spoke. Even if you did, you would saying this same thing anyway, so what is your point?

He was poke full of holes because they were trying to revive him. The couldn't fine a vain. I remember people taking about because some news media and fans used it as evident that Michael was heavily into IV drugs because of collapsed veins. I am too lazy to find the article, so one of the other members can post it.

However, knowing you, will not believe it anyway.

You also didn't say why as a nurse why Murray waited 45 minutes before allowing the MTs to take Michael to the hospital. If he could be saved, why didn't he order them to out of the house since it is proven fact that people usually die at the scene because they didn't go the hospital right away like Princess Diana.

Even if the MT didn't know if he was too far gone, can you explain this action. Even though Michael had no trauma to prevent him from moving. If you're going to say Murray panic, then that still make him guilty of holding medical help.
 
Beachlover said:
See, this is one of those things where it is not on record in the same way as the other things. When did they re interview him? And do we have a clear document showing that he said that or was this from his lawyer or someone else?

Did the police re interview Murray?
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murray was interviewd around the 26th where he gave the 11am timeline. when the warrants were released quoting what he said and talking about the phonecalls his lawyer suddenly started doing the media rounds saying the police got it wrong it wasnt 11 it was 12. all because the phonecalls showed what he was doing from 11-12. murray would rather get done just for negligence instead of covering up the crime scene and making phonecalls etc. so he has to denie the 11am time. its the lesser of two evils for him
 
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