Dr.Conrad Murray-Propofol Still An Option

[terrell]

This is making me sick each day.

 

[Soundmind]

I beg to differ here. The crime scene WAS in the house and his body is not the only part that needs to be investigated. If it were there would be no need to investigate the drugs, the bottles, the pharmacies, etc. It would be a slam dunk case. The house should have been contained. That was an error on the part of the police. The bags that the Propofol were in, the syringes used for injection would all play a part in the investigation but if they were handled they are not reliable any longer.

Example: I could tell you that I had a pulse oximeter there and just because it is missing does not mean it was not originally there. Now you have no proof where it is or who could have taken it out of the room.

If the Fire Dept Rescue found that he was in fact long dead when they got there it would be their responsibility also to alert police to this instead of telling the news. If you went to a home and the person was obviously dead for hours would you not think this was criminal?

I understand that Nurse Lee states that she had not treated Michael in months. I get what she 'said' happened. I also know they called her just days before with medical questions when Michael had a doctor on staff there and also had other doctors in his close circle of friends he could have called, so why call a nutritionist that was treating you many months before and who had to look up Propofol in the Physicians Desk Reference?

Anything could have been changed. Dates, mode of treatment, etc. I have no idea what was in the records she had and she did not do a toxicology seriology; she did basic blood tests. She can not change those because they come from a laboratory.

I am simply putting more ideas into your heads to think outside of the box that everyone wants to think in. Just because someone says something doesn't mean it is true.

Note: I did not choose Alvarez, I read that. I will have to find the link later of the source. (off to work)

Alvarez was not in London, read the transcripts carefully, Moret showed a pic of Alvarez printed in the Mail newspaper which is a British Tabloid and concluded alvarez was in London . NO one evere talked about alvarez going to london when the investigators were looking ofr him . He was always available .

as for LEE and her very suspicious "cocktail and vitamin c" , what would you say when her records confirm what she gave to mj through an IV was a very usual thing in her practice . was she giving all these people propofol ? what she did to mj was basically what she did to alot of other patients , nothing special . once she proves that , i'm sure she already did , there is no case against her whatever.

as for the crime scene , MJ was dead way before 911 call was made , everything was cleared by Murray himself . he had time to collect the propofol , midazolam, lidocaine and flumazenil bottles, put them in his bag and hide them , who was doing CPR when he collected all these bottles and hid them , who was doing CPR when he run to call for prince ?

they did not find any IV in that room , they did not find anything related to propofol in that room. the paramedics were there they would testify to what they saw when they arrived .

you now want to question the validity and credibility of the only witness who was with murray before the paramedics arrived ALVAREZ , this man also saw things in that bedroom and he would testify .

alvarez was called by Prince , and that was after 12.10 , he went to the bedroom and at 12.21 the call to 911 was made .

alvares is suspicious because of the delay , what about murray who refused to allow the paramedics to remove mj to UCLA for 43 mintues , VERY CRUCIAL minutes .

from your post we clearly should not trust what Lee, alvares and the paramedics said , but we should believe murray when he claimed he gave mj flumazenil and no flumazenil was detected in his system ?

now the paramedics are at fault because they did not immediately call the police once they realised mj was dead for a long time , and lee is lying because she said mj was clear before murray came, and because murray believed she was giving mj propofol, and lavarez is suspicious , for what reason exactly ? let me guess murray figured what alvares saw that day would incriminate him even more , so let's fire at him too.

who's next Beachlover ? the coroner ?

and did you just deliver an 'explanation' why the investigators did not find the alleged oximeter ? tell us is murray going to say alvares removed it to incriminate him?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

i dont get where beachlover is trying to go with this.about lee and alberto.

 

[Soundmind]

i dont get where beachlover is trying to go with this.about lee and alberto.

she is just 'objective' she looks "outside the box". unlike us . does not matter if it makes no sense whatever . anything who shift the blame to someone else but murray is credible and should be taken into consideration .

“No, I mean look, not immediately. Dr. Murray is his personal physician, that is something you would want is for your doctor to be right there if you were going into cardiac arrest, he was there, especially a cardiologist, he was there to try to revive Michael,” Chernoff replied when asked if 911 was called immediately.

The lawyer goes on, “When it became clear that he could not revive him through CPR, then he sought to call 911. The problem, Kiran, is that in Michael Jackson’s home, the phones don’t work. There’s no outside line, at least in Michael Jackson’s bedroom, so [Dr. Murray] had to yell for help, get security up, and then at some point security called 911.”

chernof is more stupid than murray , murray should have told Amir to call 911 immediatley and send them to the house , instead of trying to get as much witnesses as possible he was trying to revive mj . FUCKING IDIOT .

 

[Soundmind]

Beachlover do you realise that if murray wants to question how mj died and someone removing evidence from the scene , he has to make a jury believe there was a conspiracy to frame him . even if mj was the one who overdosed himslef,( that certainly what murray will claim) then why the bodyguards and security rushed to remove evidence , what;s the point ?

Janet arviso's hot air ballon to Brazil sounds much more credible than 'conspiracy to frame' coming from murray .

well, I forgot about latoya' heroine and 12 bottles of temazepam . DAMN , when certain members of that family learn to shut up .

 

[indranee]

I never said he was an angel so you don't even read my posts correctly.

it's really difficult, I admit it.

you imply that he is an honest dude who's been given the short shrift in life.

I say he's an unethical, greedy liar. I don't consider him a murderer (yet) but I do consider him and his words highly suspicious and unreliable.

we shall see who's right.

 

[Beachlover]

the house and Murray's car were impound immediately after M was pronounced dead . she went there after the police released the house to the family . oxygen tanks would have been removed if they were found in his bedroom immediately along with all the meds the investigators found bedside mj's bed .

let's assume the investigators were stupid assholes and did not bother with the oxygen tanks and it was super girl Latoya who found them and reported them to the investigator , her boyfriend and manager Jeffer Phillips HANDED Personally the two bags of HEROINE (marijuana) along with 11 bottles of temazepam to the investigators . and the investigators came back and seized 'bleaching creams' and glaucoma meds ( I re read the search warrant th investigators did not seize these also , jeffere handed them)...etc the very next day 26 June , we saw the discovery no mention of oxygen tanks at all . they recovered bag of cigarette but left behind oxygen tanks , GIVE ME A BREAK .

Latoya is a pathological liar, she can't help it, she has to lie , it is simply in her blood to exaggerate and lie .

This whole post is confusing (not because of what you said but the time line here). What I am saying is that the police did NOT secure the house fast enough and should have been the ONLY ones in the house to investigate. They tore apart Neverland when they were searching and yet they missed a bag of drugs (I don't believe that story) and vials of temazepam (Nope...not that either). First of all, if the police didn't find it who is to say how it got there?

Once the crime scene is tampered with by anyone it is no longer viable.

 

[Beachlover]

Alvarez was not in London, read the transcripts carefully, Moret showed a pic of Alvarez printed in the Mail newspaper which is a British Tabloid and concluded alvarez was in London . NO one evere talked about alvarez going to london when the investigators were looking ofr him . He was always available .

as for LEE and her very suspicious "cocktail and vitamin c" , what would you say when her records confirm what she gave to mj through an IV was a very usual thing in her practice . was she giving all these people propofol ? what she did to mj was basically what she did to alot of other patients , nothing special . once she proves that , i'm sure she already did , there is no case against her whatever.

as for the crime scene , MJ was dead way before 911 call was made , everything was cleared by Murray himself . he had time to collect the propofol , midazolam, lidocaine and flumazenil bottles, put them in his bag and hide them , who was doing CPR when he collected all these bottles and hid them , who was doing CPR when he run to call for prince ?

they did not find any IV in that room , they did not find anything related to propofol in that room. the paramedics were there they would testify to what they saw when they arrived .

you now want to question the validity and credibility of the only witness who was with murray before the paramedics arrived ALVAREZ , this man also saw things in that bedroom and he would testify .

alvarez was called by Prince , and that was after 12.10 , he went to the bedroom and at 12.21 the call to 911 was made .

alvares is suspicious because of the delay , what about murray who refused to allow the paramedics to remove mj to UCLA for 43 mintues , VERY CRUCIAL minutes .

from your post we clearly should not trust what Lee, alvares and the paramedics said , but we should believe murray when he claimed he gave mj flumazenil and no flumazenil was detected in his system ?

now the paramedics are at fault because they did not immediately call the police once they realised mj was dead for a long time , and lee is lying because she said mj was clear before murray came, and because murray believed she was giving mj propofol, and lavarez is suspicious , for what reason exactly ? let me guess murray figured what alvares saw that day would incriminate him even more , so let's fire at him too.

who's next Beachlover ? the coroner ?

and did you just deliver an 'explanation' why the investigators did not find the alleged oximeter ? tell us is murray going to say alvares removed it to incriminate him?

I am simply trying to get you to 'see' more than you are seeing now. I can tell you that I gave MJ Orange Juice in the morning and write it down but that doesn't mean thats what I gave him. My entire question comes to being because "WHY would he call her after months of not being treated by her when he had a doctor on staff and several in that area that he knew..including Klein?"

My next question would be "Why did they NOT find any IV bags or Propofol in the room? Murray did go to the hospital and not back to the house so where did they go?"

From my posts you should clearly understand that I am only asking questions that are in my own mind that don't make sense to me. You can choose to believe whatever you wish, as a jury would if it was made into a case.

As I understand it, no one has actually heard for themselves from the Fire Rescue men who were in the house. They did not give an interview to the press. If they clearly knew that MJ was dead on arrival it is their obligation to state so and to let the police know. Was that done?

If so, why was the house NOT locked down immediately. From the time they dropped MJ off at the hospital they could have/should have called the police and the police should have locked down the house as a crime scene immediately. Did that in fact happen? Did it happen hours later, or a day later? WHEN did they do the investigation in the house? AFTER LaToya already went in or before? And if they did it before, then how did LaToya 'find' things there? That is either tabloid rubbish or the police screwed up. Pick one.

All I am saying about Nurse Lee is that she was very quick to come forward into several news sources and get her face into many videos and on tape in those few days as much as she could to clear her name of any wrongdoing. In my opinion, she could have just spoken to the police if she had something to say.

I am not saying who did what. I am clearly pointing out what was NOT done and what was done incorrectly in my opinion.

Sure, Nurse Lee looks innocent by everything she said. Still the question goes unanswered. Why call a nutritionist months later and NOT go to the hospital?

 

[Ramona122003]

This whole post is confusing (not because of what you said but the time line here). What I am saying is that the police did NOT secure the house fast enough and should have been the ONLY ones in the house to investigate. They tore apart Neverland when they were searching and yet they missed a bag of drugs (I don't believe that story) and vials of temazepam (Nope...not that either). First of all, if the police didn't find it who is to say how it got there?

Once the crime scene is tampered with by anyone it is no longer viable.

It was not a crime scene until Michael died. He was not pronounce dead at the house. He was pronounce dead at the hospital after they spent over an hour trying to revive him. In that hour, anything could of happen. So, even they went there the moment it was called, the crime scene was already tainted for all practical purposes.

If Michael was announced dead by he MTs, they would had sealed the house and the body until further notice. However, that is not what happen. Before he was pronounce dead, people thought he just collapsed and suffered a cardiac arrest. Which is not unheard of for someone his age.

For reference, Elvis was not pronounce dead at Graceland. He was actually taken to a hospital where they tried to revive him before he was officially announced dead. When the MTs first went to Graceland, they found Elvis' body and a mountain of drug scattered all over his room. When the polices went back to his house to see what killed him, all the drugs were missing.

However, they knew what drugs Elvis' body because it was in his tox. They then used his medical files to trance who gave Elvis' those particular drugs. So, the body was the crime scene, not Graceland.

The same is true about Michael. It does not matter what drugs were in the house. The only thing that matters was what was in his body when he died. They did trance these drugs to Murray and they know where he bought the drugs and in what amounts. So, them sealing out the house is moot. Not to mention as Soundmind pointed out, that the crime scene was most likely already tamper with by Murray to hide his guilt. What doctor do you know keeps their doctor bag in the bathroom and in the tube?

Neverland is a poor example for this case for so many reason that I think you are smart enough to figure out on your own why it is a bad example. You make all these points Beachlover, however, you do not seem to think through you own statements sometimes.

 

[Beachlover]

from your post we clearly should not trust what Lee, alvares and the paramedics said , but we should believe murray when he claimed he gave mj flumazenil and no flumazenil was detected in his system ?

now the paramedics are at fault because they did not immediately call the police once they realised mj was dead for a long time , and lee is lying because she said mj was clear before murray came, and because murray believed she was giving mj propofol, and lavarez is suspicious , for what reason exactly ? let me guess murray figured what alvares saw that day would incriminate him even more , so let's fire at him too.

and did you just deliver an 'explanation' why the investigators did not find the alleged oximeter ? tell us is murray going to say alvares removed it to incriminate him?

Interesting and though provoking points and good you mention these things. I didn't mention the Flumazenil at all and I am wondering how all these things that Murray hid remained hidden if the house was investigated? Murray left with MJ in the ambulance. His car was impounded. So....where did the stuff 'go'? He gave an IV with no IV? And none was found?

I didn't say the paramedics are at fault. I'm asking you for what reason do you think they didn't tell the police that MJ was already dead when they arrived?

Did I ever say I believed Murray? No doubt he was covering up.....but why all the other inconsistencies?

Someone said that UCLA Medical Center confirmed what was on an intake sheet from the LAFD (Fire Dept). That doesn't even make sense. The medical center can get sued for leaking that information as it wasn't even their information to give out. Its part of the medical record and they didn't release any information, did they? Only what 2 unreliable sources said.

Do we even know what happened inside the emergency room? Not really. Only what others have said and who knows who is reliable?

There are a lot of inconsistencies. This all does not mean I think Murray is innocent.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover do you realise that if murray wants to question how mj died and someone removing evidence from the scene , he has to make a jury believe there was a conspiracy to frame him . even if mj was the one who overdosed himslef,( that certainly what murray will claim) then why the bodyguards and security rushed to remove evidence , what;s the point ?

Janet arviso's hot air ballon to Brazil sounds much more credible than 'conspiracy to frame' coming from murray .

well, I forgot about latoya' heroine and 12 bottles of temazepam . DAMN , when certain members of that family learn to shut up .

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you are saying. You have shown that you do research and I think its great.

I did not say the body guards or security rushed to remove evidence.

But if the evidence isn't there, you have to admit, someone had to remove it if it was there. It could not have been Murray. He wasn't there. He was with MJ and then he disappeared. Even his car was left at the scene.

 

[Ramona122003]

I am simply trying to get you to 'see' more than you are seeing now. I can tell you that I gave MJ Orange Juice in the morning and write it down but that doesn't mean thats what I gave him. My entire question comes to being because "WHY would he call her after months of not being treated by her when he had a doctor on staff and several in that area that he knew..including Klein?"

My next question would be "Why did they NOT find any IV bags or Propofol in the room? Murray did go to the hospital and not back to the house so where did they go?"

From my posts you should clearly understand that I am only asking questions that are in my own mind that don't make sense to me. You can choose to believe whatever you wish, as a jury would if it was made into a case.

As I understand it, no one has actually heard for themselves from the Fire Rescue men who were in the house. They did not give an interview to the press. If they clearly knew that MJ was dead on arrival it is their obligation to state so and to let the police know. Was that done?

If so, why was the house NOT locked down immediately. From the time they dropped MJ off at the hospital they could have/should have called the police and the police should have locked down the house as a crime scene immediately. Did that in fact happen? Did it happen hours later, or a day later? WHEN did they do the investigation in the house? AFTER LaToya already went in or before? And if they did it before, then how did LaToya 'find' things there? That is either tabloid rubbish or the police screwed up. Pick one.

All I am saying about Nurse Lee is that she was very quick to come forward into several news sources and get her face into many videos and on tape in those few days as much as she could to clear her name of any wrongdoing. In my opinion, she could have just spoken to the police if she had something to say.

I am not saying who did what. I am clearly pointing out what was NOT done and what was done incorrectly in my opinion.

Sure, Nurse Lee looks innocent by everything she said. Still the question goes unanswered. Why call a nutritionist months later and NOT go to the hospital?

Beachlover, Soundmind has already answer all these questions if you bother to read some of her posts. She already said why Michael called Lee instead of Murray and Klien, so why are you asking this same question over and over again. Whether you chose to believe the answer is moot.

Soundmind also answer why they did not find the IV or the Propofol. Going by what we know, Murray most likely hid them when he realize that Michael was either dead or dying. Going by his own statement, his waited at least 45 minutes before calling for help. That is 45 minutes he could of used to hide the evidence before the MTs arrived. His bag was also in the bathroom, which is an odd place to put you medical equipment. Especially if you were using it not even five minutes ago to revive someone.

Also you are misinformed about the MTs. Soundmind as well as other members have posted accounts from the MTs that said that Michael was already dead when they arrived. They could not announce him dead on site, because Murray outranked them. He told them to work on Michael and then take him to the hospital, even though they knew it was too late. However, since Murray was the head doctor, they had to do what he told them.

You also got the information from Toy wrong. They locked down the house as soon as Michael was pronounce dead and took Murray's car. The family did not go to the house until the day after Michael died. However, look at my last post to why it was already too late. Go on Youtube if you want the date the LAPD went into Michael's house.

Lee did not go on tv as soon as Michael died. She was not on the news until July, a couple days before Michael's memorial on July 7. During this time period, every talking head was talking about doctor shopping and drug addiction. We had LMP, Deepak, Oxman, and Uri to name a few on the news not even 24 hours after Michael died. Compare to Lee, she waited a long time to come forward. She gave her reason for going to news media, which was to say that Michael was not an addict. You do not seem to mind everyone else who ran their mouths, so why are you targeting Lee?

Once again, you make all these statement that Lee is hiding something. Stop playing around and just tell us what you theory is. What is Lee hiding that made her want to lie about the call on June 23, to change his medical records, and overall cause harm. Tell us what Lee have to gain for all of this and stop the mind games about thinking outside the box. The only thing you are doing is making half-bake statements and ideas without and conclusion. So, tell us what your conclusion is, since you want to dismiss everyone's else's.

 

[Beachlover]

It was not a crime scene until Michael died. He was not pronounce dead at the house. He was pronounce dead at the hospital after they spent over an hour trying to revive him. In that hour, anything could of happen. So, even they went there the moment it was called, the crime scene was already tainted for all practical purposes.

If Michael was announced dead by he MTs, they would had sealed the house and the body until further notice. However, that is not what happen. Before he was pronounce dead, people thought he just collapsed and suffered a cardiac arrest. Which is not unheard of for someone his age.

For reference, Elvis was not pronounce dead at Graceland. He was actually taken to a hospital where they tried to revive him before he was officially announced dead. When the MTs first went to Graceland, they found Elvis' body and a mountain of drug scattered all over his room. When the polices went back to his house to see what killed him, all the drugs were missing.

However, they knew what drugs Elvis' body because it was in his tox. They then used his medical files to trance who gave Elvis' those particular drugs. So, the body was the crime scene, not Graceland.

The same is true about Michael. It does not matter what drugs were in the house. The only thing that matters was what was in his body when he died. They did trance these drugs to Murray and they know where he bought the drugs and in what amounts. So, them sealing out the house is moot. Not to mention as Soundmind pointed out, that the crime scene was most likely already tamper with by Murray to hide his guilt. What doctor do you know keeps their doctor bag in the bathroom and in the tube?

Neverland is a poor example for this case for so many reason that I think you are smart enough to figure out on your own why it is a bad example. You make all these points Beachlover, however, you do not seem to think through you own statements sometimes.

Murray could tamper with the scene and hide things but he was not back to the house so it would be easy for the police to find everything. He could not remove the items because he went with Michael to the hospital. The car impounded and searched by the police. Therefore, if anything was left at the house (he could not have brought these things with him...They would NOT fit into his clothing)........then it would have been found at the house.

I am clearly saying that if the MT's found him dead it is their legal obligation to report this and they could have done that when they arrived at the hospital. Did they? Clearly, people are saying Michael was beyond saving and they knew this. Is that true? So why didn't they say something?

Elvis died of a drug overdose by his own hand. Not the same thing. In that case someone was trying to cover up what happened. In this case, who would have covered up for Murray?

 

[Beachlover]

i do wonder why latoyas manager goes running to the police saying we found heroin. what idiot would do that unless of course it was ment. lets say u find it there and go "shit we cant let ppl find out about this even if its not mjs we know what the media will do lets make it disapear" any normal person would prob do that. but the fact it wasnt even heroine to start with yet they go to the police saying they think it is. what the heck does that say about what they thought mj was doing. ive come to the conclussion thefamily were clueless about mjs life and prob believed half the crap the tabloids wrote about it. hardly ever saw him and prob had less contact with him than most of his fan base

Absolutely true.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, Soundmind has already answer all these questions if you bother to read some of her posts. She already said why Michael called Lee instead of Murray and Klien, so why are you asking this same question over and over again. Whether you chose to believe the answer is moot.

Soundmind also answer why they did not find the IV or the Propofol. Going by what we know, Murray most likely hid them when he realize that Michael was either dead or dying. Going by his own statement, his waited at least 45 minutes before calling for help. That is 45 minutes he could of used to hide the evidence before the MTs arrived. His bag was also in the bathroom, which is an odd place to put you medical equipment. Especially if you were using it not even five minutes ago to revive someone.

Also you are misinformed about the MTs. Soundmind as well as other members have posted accounts from the MTs that said that Michael was already dead when they arrived. They could not announce him dead on site, because Murray outranked them. He told them to work on Michael and then take him to the hospital, even though they knew it was too late. However, since Murray was the head doctor, they had to do what he told them.

You also got the information from Toy wrong. They locked down the house as soon as Michael was pronounce dead and took Murray's car. The family did not go to the house until the day after Michael died. However, look at my last post to why it was already too late. Go on Youtube if you want the date the LAPD went into Michael's house.

Lee did not go on tv as soon as Michael died. She was not on the news until July, a couple days before Michael's memorial on July 7. During this time period, every talking head was talking about doctor shopping and drug addiction. We had LMP, Deepak, Oxman, and Uri to name a few on the news not even 24 hours after Michael died. Compare to Lee, she waited a long time to come forward. She gave her reason for going to news media, which was to say that Michael was not an addict. You do not seem to mind everyone else who ran their mouths, so why are you targeting Lee?

Once again, you make all these statement that Lee is hiding something. Stop playing around and just tell us what you theory is. What is Lee hiding that made her want to lie about the call on June 23, to change his medical records, and overall cause harm. Tell us what Lee have to gain for all of this and stop the mind games about thinking outside the box. The only thing you are doing is making half-bake statements and ideas without and conclusion. So, tell us what your conclusion is, since you want to dismiss everyone's else's.

Just because Soundmind has an opinion as to why MJ called Nurse Lee doesn't mean it is the right reason. Did you ever think he may have called her because it had something directly to do with what Nurse Lee gave him? I don't believe the call was made for the reasons stated.

If the police searched the house as they should have, they would have found the medical bag. Doesn't seem to me they searched very hard. As I said, it doesn't matter how long Murray had to hide the evidence. If it was there it should have been found if they were looking.

Yes, while at the house with Murray they 'had' to do what Murray told him but once at the hospital they could have spoken up. I am asking 'did they' or is it all tabloid stories that we are following here? Truthfully, there were supposedly 4 of them. Any ONE of them could have called their chief and said "Ummmm sir....we have a real problem here."

I sure as shit would have done that if I were at the scene, doctor or NO doctor. Are you going to tell me that if you showed up at the home of Michael Jackson and realized that this man had lividity and was obviously dead for a long time before you got there you would not think to alert someone to this? Had to do what they told him? Thats kinda like saying "Well....we knew we should not shoot him in the face, but he said to do it so we just did it."

 

[Ramona122003]

Just because Soundmind has an opinion as to why MJ called Nurse Lee doesn't mean it is the right reason. Did you ever think he may have called her because it had something directly to do with what Nurse Lee gave him? I don't believe the call was made for the reasons stated.

If the police searched the house as they should have, they would have found the medical bag. Doesn't seem to me they searched very hard. As I said, it doesn't matter how long Murray had to hide the evidence. If it was there it should have been found if they were looking.

Yes, while at the house with Murray they 'had' to do what Murray told him but once at the hospital they could have spoken up. I am asking 'did they' or is it all tabloid stories that we are following here? Truthfully, there were supposedly 4 of them. Any ONE of them could have called their chief and said "Ummmm sir....we have a real problem here."

I sure as shit would have done that if I were at the scene, doctor or NO doctor. Are you going to tell me that if you showed up at the home of Michael Jackson and realized that this man had lividity and was obviously dead for a long time before you got there you would not think to alert someone to this? Had to do what they told him? Thats kinda like saying "Well....we knew we should not shoot him in the face, but he said to do it so we just did it."

Beachlover,

May I asked what Lee gave him that made him call that night. If you going to say the vitamin cocktail, I somehow doubt she gave him enough of it to last several months or Michael would wait so long to take the vitamin cocktail after she left. Also, even if it did cause those effects, it didn't cause his death, so what is your point exactly? As you yourself have pointed out, if it was a case of bad mineral cocktail alone, why didn't he call Murray or Klien. Why call Lee, even if she was the one to give him the vitamin cocktail? By your own logic, that doesn't make any sense.

The police was looking for drugs, not specially Murray's doctor bag. It was hidden in a tube in the bathroom. Why would the LAPD think to look there if the doctor was being forthcoming? Also, they did find it nonetheless and all the drugs in the bag, except for the revival drug, was found in Michael's body. Murray had made no move to deny this, so I once gain fail to see your point. Even if the bag was tainted, they still trance the drugs in Michael's body to Murray and to the place he bought it. So, this is kind of a circular argument.

Also about the MTs you seem to miss an important fact. Even if the MTs told the hospital staff that Michael was dead, the LAPD could not go to his house until he was officially dead. They did not announce him dead until over an hour later. Murray was the head doctor and was with Michael, they had no authority to question him. Also, if you think someone can be save for whatever reason, why would you call your chief? The story of the MTs did not come from a tabloid, it came from CNN. Soundmind posted the article several times. You can read their account yourself.

As for you mock to the MTs about overriding Murray, it does not work that way. Murray was the head, so they had the right to call it or to tell them work. It the same in an emergency room. Only the head doctor can pronounce someone dead, not the nurse. Also, if Michael was on his back the whole time, how would they know if he was lividly until they lifted him? They knew he was dead, but they didn't know for how long.

I also find it ironic that you said that the MT should not had followed orders because Michael was dead, but you used that opposite argument for Murray. I remember posts that you wrote yourself that stated Murray was not completely to blame because he was under pressure to give Michael drugs for this and that and how it is hard to turn down a rowdy patient. I was actually the one who stated the excuse "I was just following orders", would not fly in court. Yet, here you are using this same argument against the MTs. Using that logic, Murray have no excuse what-so-ever for given Michael drugs, even if he got on his knees and beg.

Beachlover, stop playing games and tell us your theory about what happen with Murray and Lee, since we got it all wrong. You keep thinking 'outside the box', but I still see no conclusion from you, just half-baked statements and ideas. At this point Beachlover, I think it is time you put up or shut up.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover,

May I asked what Lee gave him that made him call that night. If you going to say the vitamin cocktail, I somehow doubt she gave him enough of it to last several months or Michael would wait so long to take the vitamin cocktail after she left. Also, even if it did cause those effects, it didn't cause his death, so what is your point exactly? As you yourself have pointed out, if it was a case of bad mineral cocktail alone, why didn't he call Murray or Klien. Why call Lee, even if she was the one to give him the vitamin cocktail? By your own logic, that doesn't make any sense.

The police was looking for drugs, not specially Murray's doctor bag. It was hidden in a tube in the bathroom. Why would the LAPD think to look there if the doctor was being forthcoming? Also, they did find it nonetheless and all the drugs in the bag, except for the revival drug, was found in Michael's body. Murray had made no move to deny this, so I once gain fail to see your point. Even if the bag was tainted, they still trance the drugs in Michael's body to Murray and to the place he bought it. So, this is kind of a circular argument.

Also about the MTs you seem to miss an important fact. Even if the MTs told the hospital staff that Michael was dead, the LAPD could not go to his house until he was officially dead. They did not announce him dead until over an hour later. Murray was the head doctor and was with Michael, they had no authority to question him. Also, if you think someone can be save for whatever reason, why would you call your chief? The story of the MTs did not come from a tabloid, it came from CNN. Soundmind posted the article several times. You can read their account yourself.

As for you mock to the MTs about overriding Murray, it does not work that way. Murray was the head, so they had the right to call it or to tell them work. It the same in an emergency room. Only the head doctor can pronounce someone dead, not the nurse. Also, if Michael was on his back the whole time, how would they know if he was lividly until they lifted him? They knew he was dead, but they didn't know for how long.

I also find it ironic that you said that the MT should not had followed orders because Michael was dead, but you used that opposite argument for Murray. I remember posts that you wrote yourself that stated Murray was not completely to blame because he was under pressure to give Michael drugs for this and that and how it is hard to turn down a rowdy patient. I was actually the one who stated the excuse "I was just following orders", would not fly in court. Yet, here you are using this same argument against the MTs. Using that logic, Murray have no excuse what-so-ever for given Michael drugs, even if he got on his knees and beg.

Beachlover, stop playing games and tell us your theory about what happen with Murray and Lee, since we got it all wrong. You keep thinking 'outside the box', but I still see no conclusion from you, just half-baked statements and ideas. At this point Beachlover, I think it is time you put up or shut up.

Everyone is absolutely 100% sure that Murray did this and all the proof that is needed is there. Why has he not been arrested and charged yet?

I am not saying I know what Lee gave him. I wasn't there. I am stating that none of us know exactly why he made that phone call that night to Lee unless you 100% believe what she states is 100% true either.

Saying that they could not tell Michael had lividity until they moved him is inaccurate. You can see that from across the room and you can see that a person is not living because their color changes completely. I have seen many dead bodies before and I can assure you of that. It isn't like we see on television or movies.

You can show me any amount of articles you want. I also saw a CNN video of a doctor giving Propofol and the effects. Yes, that is accurate of WHAT THEY SAID but is it true? You fail to understand my whole point.

Just because someone says something on the news does not mean it is true. I am not mocking the MT guys. I am saying that after the fact they are saying he was clearly DEAD at the scene but yet they didn't think to report this right away? I'm sorry but I am in the medical field and if I had walked in on that scene I would have been screaming bloody murder!!!!!!!!!



I have not missed any facts about what the police could or could not do. Murray was in the hospital the whole time with MJ. I think they didn't search the house very well if they didn't find the bag Murray left there. It was not a very thorough search.

 

[Beachlover]

I suppose I should just keep my thoughts to myself because I can't seem to articulate what I am trying to explain here. Sure, we can read what someone says on CNN and that is surely what they said. Yes. I agree.

BUT...is it the truth?

If you ask me why would someone lie my answer is simple. Why would ANYONE lie? Because they are covering something.

 

[KingOfPop1]

Beachlover,

Members are getting suspicious of your motives because it seems like you are in support of Murray and not the victim of this crime. I've told you this before!!! It seems you give Murray the benefit of the doubt and that is your right.... but it comes off like Michael is to blame for his own death. He is the victim of something awful and we've seen from you that Michael pressured Murray into giving him Diprivan... HOWEVER you turn around and say something totally contradictory about the EMT's and their reporting of Michael's death and how it should have been reported immediately OVERRIDING the ranking doctor on the scene. Look, Murray PRESSURED the EMT's and told them to continue working on Michael, even though they knew Michael was dead. Pressure is pressure, right? Or does it only apply to Michael "pressuring" the poor doctor? Murray couldn't possibly do the same thing, right or wrong?

Then you don't believe the reports presented to you yet you ask for evidence. You don't believe what is said in tabloids, yet when CNN backs up the report or has a similar report, you say "Sure, we can read what someone says on CNN and that is surely what they said. Yes. I agree. BUT...is it the truth?"

You are setting a very high standard of evidence that is impossible to meet.

You ask everyone to think outside of the box but you provide nothing for members to think outside that box other than showing sympathy for Murray.

What exactly do you expect? What do you want from these grieving fans?

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover,

Members are getting suspicious of your motives because it seems like you are in support of Murray and not the victim of this crime. I've told you this before!!! It seems you give Murray the benefit of the doubt and that is your right.... but it comes off like Michael is to blame for his own death. He is the victim of something awful and we've seen from you that Michael pressured Murray into giving him Diprivan... HOWEVER you turn around and say something totally contradictory about the EMT's and their reporting of Michael's death and how it should have been reported immediately OVERRIDING the ranking doctor on the scene. Look, Murray PRESSURED the EMT's and told them to continue working on Michael, even though they knew Michael was dead. Pressure is pressure, right? Or does it only apply to Michael "pressuring" the poor doctor? Murray couldn't possibly do the same thing, right or wrong?

Then you don't believe the reports presented to you yet you ask for evidence. You don't believe what is said in tabloids, yet when CNN backs up the report or has a similar report, you say "Sure, we can read what someone says on CNN and that is surely what they said. Yes. I agree. BUT...is it the truth?"

You are setting a very high standard of evidence that is impossible to meet.

You ask everyone to think outside of the box but you provide nothing for members to think outside that box other than showing sympathy for Murray.

What exactly do you expect? What do you want from these grieving fans?

Why is it that I MUST believe what someone says if I think they may be covering something up? Just because it was on CNN?

No Trish, I just believe that we are all being farmed by the news to believe what they feed us and I don't like being manipulated by the news.

Show me where in these posts I defend Murray? You can't because I did not. I can't argue with you because you are a moderator and I don't want to be thrown out of this forum. They do that in TINI when you disagree with them and I won't have that happen here. Have a great evening/night.

 

[KingOfPop1]

I didn't say you defended Murray. When/where did I say that? I said you give him the benefit of the doubt and that it appears as if you are in support of him.

You want proof and when members give it to you, it appears that you brush it off. Again I ask, what is it that you seek from the membership here? If you do not believe what is said by the media and media reports are what we go by, then why ask for proof?

And please stop with the assumption that you will get banned for your opinion or going back and forth with a moderator. If we were like that you would have been banned by now, right?

 

[Soundmind]

Just because Soundmind has an opinion as to why MJ called Nurse Lee doesn't mean it is the right reason. Did you ever think he may have called her because it had something directly to do with what Nurse Lee gave him? I don't believe the call was made for the reasons stated.

If the police searched the house as they should have, they would have found the medical bag. Doesn't seem to me they searched very hard. As I said, it doesn't matter how long Murray had to hide the evidence. If it was there it should have been found if they were looking.

Yes, while at the house with Murray they 'had' to do what Murray told him but once at the hospital they could have spoken up. I am asking 'did they' or is it all tabloid stories that we are following here? Truthfully, there were supposedly 4 of them. Any ONE of them could have called their chief and said "Ummmm sir....we have a real problem here."

I sure as shit would have done that if I were at the scene, doctor or NO doctor. Are you going to tell me that if you showed up at the home of Michael Jackson and realized that this man had lividity and was obviously dead for a long time before you got there you would not think to alert someone to this? Had to do what they told him? Thats kinda like saying "Well....we knew we should not shoot him in the face, but he said to do it so we just did it."

as for Lee , MJ called her on 20 june , she last saw him on 9 April , lets assume for the sake of discussion MJ was still taking what Lee prescribed for him , he sure was taking the 'suspicious cocktail' through IV , and sure someone was giving it to him , that someone was Murray . Murray did not tell the police that . murray told them he believed Lee was giving MJ a cocktail of propofol .OK if we were to believe your theory , murray was the one giving it at the time, certainly you don't believe MJ suffered side effects two months after she left :smilerolleyes: so mj should have asked the person who was giving it to him at the time , not Lee .

Her very suspicious IV with vitamin C is a very trendy thing now in the athletes world , there is nothing out of ordinary about it .

as for the paramedics , they were there , they told the doctors at UCLA what they saw , the doctors at UCLA were also higher than them , at the house it was murray's responsibility to call mj dead he refused to do so, at the hospital it was either murray or the other doctors, again murray refused to do so and the UCLA doctor pronounced him dead , MJ was moved to a unit in ucla which had a reputation for reviving the DEAD .
why would anyone blame the paramedics ? what motive do they have to lie ? no doubt they talked to the police , no doubt they talked to the doctors , and no doubt they told them they were prevented from moving mj to UCLA for 43 minutes . no doubt they were asked to re inject mj as much possible by murray to create more and more injections sites in his body , so the injections he made before they came would be lost .

nobody has a reason to believe there was a murder there, murray created an overdose scene , all mj's meds prescribed by different doctors were there lined beside his bed for everyone to see them ( Elvis death scene comes to mind ) . I don't know why the police did not search the whole house , i think this is a major problem , because we don't know where the IV disappeared. they did not mention finding any iv there , not even oxygen tanks , although they were directly related to propofol .

we will have to see what explanation do they have . but as for Murray's bag , he was the one who told them where to find it, he was the one who told them what drugs he gave to mj, all the drugs were traced back to him even though there was no mention of the patient on it . he can't deny that at all.

one last thing if murray and his lawyer were not stupid , he would not have spoken to the police in the first place . but I have a reason to believe he only did that to lead them in a different direction again . he did something that night and he wanted desperately to hide .

 

[Soundmind]

Why is it that I MUST believe what someone says if I think they may be covering something up? Just because it was on CNN?

No Trish, I just believe that we are all being farmed by the news to believe what they feed us and I don't like being manipulated by the news.

Show me where in these posts I defend Murray? You can't because I did not. I can't argue with you because you are a moderator and I don't want to be thrown out of this forum. They do that in TINI when you disagree with them and I won't have that happen here. Have a great evening/night.

what motives did the paramedics have to lie ? what did these guys do in the first place to cover up ?

you are the same person who quoted that asshole Moret on Alvarez being in London and HE WAS NOT . a single small very small mention of alvarez being in London caught your attention coming from the sleazy Moret , yet you want us to ignore quotes with named sources coming from the chief of fire department .

you still did not explain why would murray prevent the paramedics from moving mj to UCLA for 43 minutes ?

 

[Soundmind]

Beachlover,

May I asked what Lee gave him that made him call that night. If you going to say the vitamin cocktail, I somehow doubt she gave him enough of it to last several months or Michael would wait so long to take the vitamin cocktail after she left. Also, even if it did cause those effects, it didn't cause his death, so what is your point exactly? As you yourself have pointed out, if it was a case of bad mineral cocktail alone, why didn't he call Murray or Klien. Why call Lee, even if she was the one to give him the vitamin cocktail? By your own logic, that doesn't make any sense.

The police was looking for drugs, not specially Murray's doctor bag. It was hidden in a tube in the bathroom. Why would the LAPD think to look there if the doctor was being forthcoming? Also, they did find it nonetheless and all the drugs in the bag, except for the revival drug, was found in Michael's body. Murray had made no move to deny this, so I once gain fail to see your point. Even if the bag was tainted, they still trance the drugs in Michael's body to Murray and to the place he bought it. So, this is kind of a circular argument.

Also about the MTs you seem to miss an important fact. Even if the MTs told the hospital staff that Michael was dead, the LAPD could not go to his house until he was officially dead. They did not announce him dead until over an hour later. Murray was the head doctor and was with Michael, they had no authority to question him. Also, if you think someone can be save for whatever reason, why would you call your chief? The story of the MTs did not come from a tabloid, it came from CNN. Soundmind posted the article several times. You can read their account yourself.

As for you mock to the MTs about overriding Murray, it does not work that way. Murray was the head, so they had the right to call it or to tell them work. It the same in an emergency room. Only the head doctor can pronounce someone dead, not the nurse. Also, if Michael was on his back the whole time, how would they know if he was lividly until they lifted him? They knew he was dead, but they didn't know for how long.

I also find it ironic that you said that the MT should not had followed orders because Michael was dead, but you used that opposite argument for Murray. I remember posts that you wrote yourself that stated Murray was not completely to blame because he was under pressure to give Michael drugs for this and that and how it is hard to turn down a rowdy patient. I was actually the one who stated the excuse "I was just following orders", would not fly in court. Yet, here you are using this same argument against the MTs. Using that logic, Murray have no excuse what-so-ever for given Michael drugs, even if he got on his knees and beg.

Beachlover, stop playing games and tell us your theory about what happen with Murray and Lee, since we got it all wrong. You keep thinking 'outside the box', but I still see no conclusion from you, just half-baked statements and ideas. At this point Beachlover, I think it is time you put up or shut up.

very true :clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Soundmind]

Everyone is absolutely 100% sure that Murray did this and all the proof that is needed is there. Why has he not been arrested and charged yet?

I am not saying I know what Lee gave him. I wasn't there. I am stating that none of us know exactly why he made that phone call that night to Lee unless you 100% believe what she states is 100% true either.

Saying that they could not tell Michael had lividity until they moved him is inaccurate. You can see that from across the room and you can see that a person is not living because their color changes completely. I have seen many dead bodies before and I can assure you of that. It isn't like we see on television or movies.

You can show me any amount of articles you want. I also saw a CNN video of a doctor giving Propofol and the effects. Yes, that is accurate of WHAT THEY SAID but is it true? You fail to understand my whole point.

Just because someone says something on the news does not mean it is true. I am not mocking the MT guys. I am saying that after the fact they are saying he was clearly DEAD at the scene but yet they didn't think to report this right away? I'm sorry but I am in the medical field and if I had walked in on that scene I would have been screaming bloody murder!!!!!!!!!



I have not missed any facts about what the police could or could not do. Murray was in the hospital the whole time with MJ. I think they didn't search the house very well if they didn't find the bag Murray left there. It was not a very thorough search.

we should not trust Lee, Alvarez, the paramedics , the police, the search warrants even the cause of death since no flumazenil was mentioned in it and don't say you did not try to explain why murray might have given mj flumazenil and it was not detected by the coroner , basically every one has a motive to lie and to cover up .
and your point is ?what is your theory ? tell us what do you exactly believe happened that night ? what motives do all these people have to lie ? why no one but murray should be given the benefit of the doubt ?

 

[Beachlover]

what motives did the paramedics have to lie ? what did these guys do in the first place to cover up ?

you are the same person who quoted that asshole Moret on Alvarez being in London and HE WAS NOT . a single small very small mention of alvarez being in London caught your attention coming from the sleazy Moret , yet you want us to ignore quotes with named sources coming from the chief of fire department .

you still did not explain why would murray prevent the paramedics from moving mj to UCLA for 43 minutes ?

Good Morning Soundmind. THANK YOU for pointing out that Alvarez was not in London. I get that now.

I didn't say the paramedics lied. I am saying that there are reports saying they found a person who was dead with lividity; meaning this person they actually found was completely dead and beyond help. Yet, they just did as they were told? So, yes, I understand that the chief of the fire department came out and stated that they had no choice and had to follow his direction.

I am a nurse. If I showed up and the doctor told me to do something that I clearly saw was not right and I gave MJ some drug that was inappropriate, even with a doctors order, it would then be MY license on the line. I am responsible for what I give my patient. If the doctor makes a gross mistake and I follow the command and the patient dies, I am just as responsible because the law says I have to do what MY license to practice tells me is the RIGHT thing to do because I have gone to school for this and I KNOW BETTER.

I have NO DOUBT HE SAID THIS. To me this means they did not do what they should have done and the chief realized after the fact what happened and the responders should have called but didn't. What else can he say under those circumstances? Admit they screwed up? So, yeah, I think it is wrong that Murray kept them there for 43 minutes but I think it is wrong they allowed it. Say whatever you like. If the fact is that he was CLEARLY gone already, working on a dead body to revive it for 43 minutes and taking direction from someone just because they are a higher authority doesn't wash with me. You can show me over and over that the chief said this and I don't dispute he said it. WHY they allowed it is more my question. What did the FD responders really find at that house?

you still did not explain why would murray prevent the paramedics from moving mj to UCLA for 43 minutes ?

I can NOT explain that. Can you tell me why 4 responders would show up to someones house to find a clearly dead body and spend 43 minutes to revive it and then when asked why they were going so slow in the driveway and not flashing sirens and going faster to the hospital it was because they were doing things in the van that required them to go slowly? What were they doing in that van after 43 minutes of already working on him inside the house?

 

[Beachlover]

we should not trust Lee, Alvarez, the paramedics , the police, the search warrants even the cause of death since no flumazenil was mentioned in it and don't say you did not try to explain why murray might have given mj flumazenil and it was not detected by the coroner , basically every one has a motive to lie and to cover up .
and your point is ?what is your theory ? tell us what do you exactly believe happened that night ? what motives do all these people have to lie ? why no one but murray should be given the benefit of the doubt ?

You need to take a step back. You are getting annoyed at me because I say I do not always believe what someone says because I don't trust all of the people involved and not just Murray.

the search warrants even the cause of death since no flumazenil was mentioned in it and don't say you did not try to explain why murray might have given mj flumazenil and it was not detected by the coroner

I can't explain that. If that is the only reason MJ is now 'gone' then why are they investigating everyone's medical records? Its a slam dunk. Why go to all that expense if they already know Murray lied and is guilty?

we should not trust Lee, Alvarez, the paramedics , the police, the search warrants even the cause of death

I did not ever say that the police are lying. I said they did not do a proper search if they missed things in the house. I said they did not lock the crime scene down fast enough and anything that was found after others were allowed onto the crime scene is not admissible as evidence in a clean crime scene because anyone could have planted the bottles, bags, cans or equipment there or removed it the same way. They should have been able to find the syringe or bag that contained the overdose of Propofol to prove that. They should be able to clearly say whether there was a pulse oximeter or medical equipment there.

I believe what the search warrants say. That is an account of what Murray told them. I believe they wrote it down as told to them. Was Murray telling the truth? I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt. He says he gave 25 mg of Propofol.

The cause of death says Propofol intoxication. It is a stated FACT.

I don't dispute this. I 'question' who is and who is not telling the truth here.

Once the police start ANY investigation anyone involved in the case would KNOW clearly that their phone records can be searched. You can not hide that. Phone records only say a call was placed to whom and for how long. NOT what is said.

So, clearly everyone here wants to convict Murray. Period. End of story.

My 'gut instinct' tells me that there is more to the story than we now know.

 

[Ramona122003]

You need to take a step back. You are getting annoyed at me because I say I do not always believe what someone says because I don't trust all of the people involved and not just Murray.

the search warrants even the cause of death since no flumazenil was mentioned in it and don't say you did not try to explain why murray might have given mj flumazenil and it was not detected by the coroner

I can't explain that. If that is the only reason MJ is now 'gone' then why are they investigating everyone's medical records? Its a slam dunk. Why go to all that expense if they already know Murray lied and is guilty?

we should not trust Lee, Alvarez, the paramedics , the police, the search warrants even the cause of death

I did not ever say that the police are lying. I said they did not do a proper search if they missed things in the house. I said they did not lock the crime scene down fast enough and anything that was found after others were allowed onto the crime scene is not admissible as evidence in a clean crime scene because anyone could have planted the bottles, bags, cans or equipment there or removed it the same way. They should have been able to find the syringe or bag that contained the overdose of Propofol to prove that. They should be able to clearly say whether there was a pulse oximeter or medical equipment there.

I believe what the search warrants say. That is an account of what Murray told them. I believe they wrote it down as told to them. Was Murray telling the truth? I am not giving him the benefit of the doubt. He says he gave 25 mg of Propofol.

The cause of death says Propofol intoxication. It is a stated FACT.

I don't dispute this. I 'question' who is and who is not telling the truth here.

Once the police start ANY investigation anyone involved in the case would KNOW clearly that their phone records can be searched. You can not hide that. Phone records only say a call was placed to whom and for how long. NOT what is said.

So, clearly everyone here wants to convict Murray. Period. End of story.

My 'gut instinct' tells me that there is more to the story than we now know.

You are once again forgetting some key facts. If Michael was dead long enough to be lividly than Murray had 20 to 3 hours to hide evident. So, the crime scene was already corrupted. In that time period, Murray had plenty of time to hide anything that pointed to him doing something wrong. He claimed to be trying to revive Michael for 40 minutes, but he doctor bag was found in the bathtub in the bathroom. If you were reviving someone, why would your bag which had life saving medication in it be in the bathroom?

Also, as I have said so many times, the crime scene was not the house, it was Michael's body. They do not need to find IV poles and a room full of drugs, because the evident is all in Michael's body. He took drugs that could only be given by an IV and no pills were found in his body. Murray freely admitted to injecting him with the medication in question, so why do they need the physical evident of an IV? They know where Murray got the drugs and it matches what was found in his medical bag. Even if the medical bag was dismiss in court, they still have the drugs Murray bought in his own name.

You like the judge the MTs because I said they could not tell if Michael was lividly because they couldn't see his back. You said you can tell someone is dead for long time by just looking at them because their color change. Michael had no skin color. His skin disease that all but wiped out his skin tone, so he was pale regardless if he was alive or not. So, the MTs cannot just look and tell if he was lividly. The MTs knew he was dead, but they did not know for how long until they moved him and saw the lividly on his back.

Murray was the ranking physical, so they had to follow his direction. If this goes to court, the MTs and the hospital will have to explain why they did not pronounce him dead right away, but that does little to change the above facts.

Now, you say this is not clean cut, so that is why it is taking so long. Your gut is telling you these things, but you have not told anyone here why you think there is more going on. You didn't prove your point against Lee and you have not shown anyone your clear thoughts. You have only brought facts together that does not make a different or make little sense.

No one in here is dumb. If there was indeed clear cut evident that there was some sort of 'cover up' we all would had spotted it and noted it. There is none and you are not proven any kind of point. All you are doing is spreading doubt about this and that with little to no merit. You even contradicted yourself several times as we have pointed out to prove some sort of point.

Like I said, cut to the chase and tell us your theory. We all put our ideas on the line here for the judgment for all. You have not. Your gut is not valid evident. If any of us said the same thing, our word would have no merit. Either put your ideas on the line with the proper facts to back them up and let us judge the merit for ourselves or don't play 'thinking outside the box' with us.

This is not the TINI board, so do not insult the people here. They have all been open to anyone's ideas, even if they are not popular as long as it is done in a respectful manner. So, you have no excuse to why you are acting like the victim.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

What did the FD responders really find at that house?

and your theory is? cause its easy to say all these little things to put doubts in ppl minds but u never back up what u are saying. is that your motive

 

[Beachlover]

You are right. There is no excuse and I am acting like the victim here.

I will stay out of these types of threads from now on. It is obvious I don't know what I am talking about.