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Did MJ Find Love In The Dark (continued)

queen g said:
Sometimes it can bring a smile to our face when we think of things about Michael that we loved about him. How about his laugh? Whenever you hear his laugh does it make you light-hearted?
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Hearing mjs laugh made me feel like i was on cloud nine :wub:, always made me happy.
 
Justus said:
Here is a quote i made on one of Ape's threads:

QUOTE:
Well this is a good thread. And prophets through the ages have never been accepted in their own land. So it is with Michael.

The message in the music is clear...and the good thing is that many are taking notice and taking ACTION. Can you imagine the smile on Michael's face? There are people who are getting past the "death" and keeping who he is ALIVE. The ESSENCE matters. The MESSAGE matters.

Change starts within ourselves and spreads like fire. The love and the change can radiate out from our very being, and make things happen the world over! You think you are just one little person who can't make an impact? think again! If everyone thought they couldn't make an impact, and waited on someone else to do it, nothing would ever get done. But, conversely, if EVERYONE thought they could do SOMETHING, SO MUCH could get done! This world is dark, because we allow it to be that way. Be the light, and spread it around. MAKE THAT CHANGE! TODAY!!!!!
END QUOTE

The subject of of love isn't just the subject of romance. It is all-encompassing. it is the subject of light, too. I know this particular thread has to do with the romance kind of love, but I am going to continue on this tangent for just a bit longer. :)

See in order for there to be love, of any form, there must be light, somewhere. Most people in this world, by the world's standards, would be in general, considered "good" people. There is of course a Biblical definition of the way people are - "we are all as filthy rags" and "no one is good, no not one", due to our sin nature. Compared to God and His righteousness, sure that's true. But that's not where I am headed with this. :p So back to Light.

Light/Love spreads, as does Darkness/Evil. BUT, fortunately, Light has the power to overcome. There can be no darkness where light floods every nook and cranny of a room. No shadows. The heart can be like that, when we allow it. It can glow, and we can glow right along with it (i.e. "Be God's glow!"). And when Light makes one room glow, thoroughly, it illuminates another, and another, and another. When the heart is absolutely FULL of Light, and Love, there is NO room for hate, no room for evil, no room for bitterness to fester (especially over circumstances over which we have no control). When injustes occur, there is every right to be angry (even Jesus got angry at times), but that passes. When someone dies, especially all of a sudden, we grieve at the loss of the person in our lives, but then realize hey, there is cause to celebrate this person's life! God has perfect timing, even when we don't realize it, even when we cannot explain it. For some people who have passed on, they were soooo full of Light, soooo full of Love, that even after the body has gone, the spirit/soul continues to be active, and the mission continues - only this time, with more freedom. The body gives a lot of limitations to the what the soul can really do. With Michael, this is very much true, and many of you can attest to this. With many other people, the soul rests for the rest of eternity. This is the general and standard way things are done, and how they are talked about.

I told you, some time ago, that Michael found love and light, right here on this board (mjjc as a whole). In more ways than one. So MANY of you here, have such a desire to keep his true legacy alive. This has occured both pre-June 25 and post. Those are the things that truly brought smiles to his face on here. SO much love. Michael is not God, is not Jesus, nor did he ever claim to be. In fact he denied that outright. He knew that people on this earth compare him to Jesus, and he felt that was a category that most certainly did not belong to him. His purpose, as it SHOULD be, has been to IMITATE Jesus, as much as possible. THAT's what draws people to him (and by the same token, makes others despise him), because not only is his heart just naturally full of Light, he USES it and makes it spread everywhere. For some people that takes a huge effot, for others it is a gift from God to have an ease to do that. When it is NOT used, tho, darkness can set in and make it useless. Just as with any gift of the Spirit.

What exactly is my point? I guess it would be that yes there are struggles on this earth, yes there is pain, but ultimately, Light overcomes everything. lol Love Overcomes Virtually Everything. I think it was ashtanga or someone that came up with that phrase. :) And it's true. And if you actually live by that, you can make yourself accomplish things that you never thought possible! Michael sure has! He overcame the odds (and they were many in his life). You know what though, his celebrity both helped AND hindered his mission. It helped in that he was well-known and had money/resources to get a lot done in mass quantity/quality. It hindered in that he was TOO well known and was a prisoner of his own identity almost his whole life. Not being able to go places w/o being mobbed, etc. SO much has a hinderance. There was/is MUCH more he's wanted/needed to accomplish, that it can only be done spiritually in some form.

So, be extensions, of not only Michael's Light and Love, but ultimately, the SOURCE of it, which is God. It matters not if you have no money - you can still make an impact in many people's lives. You have to trust that you can, do what you can, be Light and Love, spread Light and Love, Keep the Faith, etc. We're all connected. Don't wait until the last minute. Time IS running out.

BE the LOVE.
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:angel:Our Children Are The Future...Keep Helping To Heal The World...WE Are The World...Knowledge IS Growth...Education IS The Key~~~
 
queen g said:
As long as everyone focuses on Michael Jackson's death being a tragic end to this Love Story we have been exploring in here, it will, of course, squelch the life right out of all LOVE and ROMANCE that was once so uplifting for us to talk about in here.
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I apologize if that's how I came across. I certainly don't mean to bring down the tempo of this thread. I after all am a sucker for a romantic love story. :p I guess I just don't know what else to contribute at the moment. I have many thoughts but they seem a bit insignificant to share. :)

I will say I have read some things recently on another site that I visited many many years ago but stopped lurking at until recently when I decided I needed a break from here and went back to lurk. IF I believe what I have read to be true it would quite possibly put an end to, or a new spin on the question asked here, DMJFLITD? I have been enlightened as well as left speechless by some of the things I've read. I'm just happy for MJ if what I've seen is true. True love never seemed far away. :)

~~~~~

Justus: Nice post about "light". It reminded me alot of something I posted many pages ago here about a book I read "The Voice of Knowledge" A Practical Guide to Inner Peace by Don Miguel Ruiz. There is a chapter in it called "A Night In The Desert" and it speaks about "light" and the universe. You actually inspired me to re-read the chapter lol. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. :)
 
lol sorry my post got so long. :) I wrote a book again didn't I? but hey I'm glad you all liked it. See you later.
 
This is in reference to what Justus recently posted:

“I am only one; but still I am one.

I cannot do everything, but still I can do something.

I will not refuse to do the something I can do.”

Helen Keller


For Those of us who do not know who Helen Keller is:


Helen Adams Keller (June 27, 1880 – June 1, 1968) was an American author, political activist and lecturer. She was the first deafblind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree.The story of how Keller's teacher, Annie Sullivan, broke through the isolation imposed by a near complete lack of language, allowing the girl to blossom as she learned to communicate, has become known worldwide through the dramatic depictions of the play and film The Miracle Worker.

A prolific author, Keller was well traveled and was outspoken in her opposition to war. She campaigned for women's suffrage, workers' rights, and socialism, as well as many other progressive causes.

Early childhood and illness


Keller with Anne Sullivan vacationing at Cape Cod in July 1888



Helen Adams Keller was born on a plantation called Ivy Green in Tuscumbia, Alabama, on June 27, 1880, to Captain Arthur H. Keller, a former officer of the Confederate Army, and Kate Adams Keller, a cousin of Robert E. Lee and daughter of Charles W. Adams, a former Confederate general. The Keller family originates from Switzerland.

Helen Keller was not born blind and deaf; it was not until she was nineteen months old that she contracted an illness described by doctors as "an acute congestion of the stomach and the brain," which could possibly have been scarlet fever or meningitis.

The illness did not last for a particularly long time, but it left her deaf and blind. At that time, she was able to communicate somewhat with Martha Washington, the six-year-old daughter of the family cook, who understood her signs; by the age of seven, she had over sixty home signs to communicate with her family. According to Soviet blind-deaf psychologist A. Meshcheryakov, Martha's friendship and teaching was crucial for Helen's later developments.

In 1886, her mother, inspired by an account in Charles Dickens' American Notes of the successful education of another deaf and blind child, Laura Bridgman, dispatched young Helen, accompanied by her father, to seek out Dr. J. Julian Chisolm, an eye, ear, nose, and throat specialist in Baltimore, for advice. He subsequently put them in touch with Alexander Graham Bell, who was working with deaf children at the time. Bell advised the couple to contact the Perkins Institute for the Blind, the school where Bridgman had been educated, which was then located in South Boston.

Michael Anaganos, the school's director, asked former student Anne Sullivan, herself visually impaired and then only 20 years old, to become Keller's instructor. It was the beginning of a 49-year-long relationship, eventually evolving into governess and then eventual companion.

Anne Sullivan arrived at Keller's house in March 1887, and immediately began to teach Helen to communicate by spelling words into her hand, beginning with d-o-l-l for the doll that she had brought Keller as a present.

Keller's big breakthrough in communication came the next month, when she realized that the motions her teacher was making on the palm of her hand, while running cool water over her other hand, symbolized the idea of "water"; she then nearly exhausted Sullivan demanding the names of all the other familiar objects in her world.
Due to a protruding left eye, Keller was usually photographed in profile. Both her eyes were replaced in adulthood with glass replicas for "medical and cosmetic reasons.

Source: Wiki

:angel:Our Children Are The Future...Heal The World...WE Are The World...Knowledge IS Growth...Education IS The Key~~~
 
queen g said:
Oh no, not at all, Lily! I instead felt that you were one that was being "brought down" by some other posts in here and I thought MysteriousPhoenix was, too, and this is what prompted my own post, because I didn't like to see you guys so discouraged, or to watch a downer tone continue in here. :( I know what a romantic you are!
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queen g, I'm so sorry, but your post really did discourage me and I won't be posting here as much, if at all, anymore. Sorry! The idea of "warrior" is that a warrior fights someone, something, or some force, and I thought it was worthy of discussion. What I was trying to express is that there cannot be "light" without the "dark," in a duet, struggle, or shifting balance. What part would the LITD woman play in that? I guess that's for you guys to discuss, or not discuss, now. That's ok, and I do understand. I love the depth of discussion here, but also it's necessary for me now to feel a sense of safety, and freedom in conversations? Maybe this board is just too big, or whatever? (I belong to other, private, boards, and that's ok. . .)

Carry on,

Vic
 
Justus said:
lol sorry my post got so long. :)
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I wrote a book again didn't I? but hey I'm glad you all liked it. See you later.
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:no: No one should ever feel like they have to apoligize and/or be sorry for being the individual we have grown to be...!
That in itself is an asset to each and everyone of us...:punk:

:angel: Keep Helping To Heal The World...WE Are The World...Knowledge IS Growth...Education IS The Key~~~
 
Victoria83: That is one of the most beautiful videos I've ever seen in my life. :cry: Thank you for posting it.

A love without expectations, so pure and beautiful. LOVE just IS.

~~~~~
 
Lily said:
I apologize if that's how I came across. I certainly don't mean to bring down the tempo of this thread. I after all am a sucker for a romantic love story. :p I guess I just don't know what else to contribute at the moment. I have many thoughts but they seem a bit insignificant to share. :)

I will say I have read some things recently on another site that I visited many many years ago but stopped lurking at until recently when I decided I needed a break from here and went back to lurk. IF I believe what I have read to be true it would quite possibly put an end to, or a new spin on the question asked here, DMJFLITD? I have been enlightened as well as left speechless by some of the things I've read. I'm just happy for MJ if what I've seen is true. True love never seemed far away. :)

~~~~~

Justus: Nice post about "light". It reminded me alot of something I posted many pages ago here about a book I read "The Voice of Knowledge" A Practical Guide to Inner Peace by Don Miguel Ruiz. There is a chapter in it called "A Night In The Desert" and it speaks about "light" and the universe. You actually inspired me to re-read the chapter lol. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. :)
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Can you share, Lily? Would be interesting to know. :)

I personally can only say that I enjoy this thread, but I have never really had much to say because, like I have been saying, I'm not so good with the theories...and I think right now I have even less to say..or I don't want to say much because I don't want to bring the mood down...and I love this thread because it has always felt like it's a "place to go to get away" almost. To "re-charge" and get positive energy in some weird way. Like a "refuge". I mean, one of the things I was afraid of (and still am I guess) after Michael died was losing contact with all the fans...losing all these MJ discussions with fans, etc. You know, the "fan world". And it has been such a blessing that this thread survived MJ's death. Like I said, it gives energy in a weird way.

HOWEVER...at the moment I just feel totally "negative" about love. Like I've hit the lowest low in anything to do with love and relationships and at the moment I just don't even wanna really think about any of that stuff or be involved in any of that stuff. Like...ever again. I'm done.

And not only that, I also feel totally confused about MJ and what he said and I can't really figure him out. :scratch:I saw some clips on YouTube...and I read the parts he said to the Rabbi in that book...and it is very confusing. And I don't mean to judge, because who am I to judge...and I don't mean it the judgemental way...I am just trying to figure out who MJ was, what he meant with things he said, etc...I mean, it seems he blamed women for "seducing" married men (or men in general). It seemed like in his opinion the guys didn't do anything wrong, it was the women who used their bodies to seduce the men and it was all of the women's fault. And he said something like "I don't think it's good, but I understand it" about cheating. Which I don't get at all really. :scratch: But I guess, maybe he was just typical male...just like "all the guys"...if we are to "stereotype" like MJ seemed to stereotype women. :scratch:Anyways, another thing that I thought of was....that MJ seemed to be SO concerned of some woman getting his money that he didn't seem to want to get involved with any woman (seriously at least) unless she was rich and famous. And even then he'd think twice, it seemed. And when I was watching A Christmas Carol at the movies recently, this thought occured to me all of the sudden: Do you think that MJ was maybe a bit like Scrooge? You know, so afraid of "some woman" getting his money that he kept everyone (read:women) away at all cost, just like Scrooge? But in the end he was really keeping love and happiness away from himself too...just for the sake of a few millions maybe (or not even a penny...because how could he know if she would want ANYTHING...or couldn't he just have signed a pre-nup too?). You know, when you think about it...especially now that he is gone and things get put into a REAL perspective and you really see what kind of things count in life...so when you look back...What if he was so afraid of some woman getting a few millions out of his billion (or like I said, maybe even nothing at all because maybe she wouldn't have even wanted to...but even IF...) that he kept keeping love away. And for what? When you really think about it...what if he would have stopped being afraid (IF he was...don't know if he was...seems like it from what he was saying but I don't know him, so I can't say for sure) and would have been more open for love and maybe would have found "the love of his life" that way. Maybe the outcome would have been different than what it ended up to be? I mean, what are his millions worth to him now that he is dead? (Just to put things into perspective.) I don't know if anyone is following me but I hope some of you get what I mean. You know, what if he kept women (and that way true love) away from him out of a fear of losing a couple of millions? So he maybe died some millions richer...but in the end...when you look at the bigger picture, it makes you wonder if it was really worth it? You know, like I said...sort of like Scrooge...He had all this money...but what good did it do to him because he was alone and didn't enjoy life really (not saying MJ didn't enjoy life, but I hope that you get what I mean with the comparison?). Anyways, what I read about MJ saying about women and relationships...I just got more confused the more I read what he said. Because he said he picked women he REALLY liked to be in his videos...but then it bothered him if they started liking him because he didn't wanna get that serious. And that he liked the quiet, classy (rich &famous :lol:) type women....but that the girl had to ask him out. But I am not sure how many quiet, classy women would do that...? I guess there are some who would, but I'd say it's a minority? Usually those who are quiet are shy...so..can't really see them asking a guy out...It's usually the bold, self-confident type of girls that ask guys out. So isn't that kind of a contradiction? And wouldn't he always end up going out with the WRONG type then...the type that WOULD ask him out...but that wasn't HIS type really?:scratch: And then he said that he can go out on a date if a girl asks him...but it sounded like "sure, I can go (if I have nothing better to do)"...which doesn't sound exactly romantic or flattering towards the women. :scratch:So all those bits kind of confuse me...:scratch:And then MJ complaining about what his dad did to his mother with all the cheating and all that...but then he goes out with Lisa Marie and kisses her on the mouth while HE himself is married...And then he seems to blame women for seducing men (and it seems he's saying the guy who KNOWS HE is married (and who's to say he shares that info with the girl? So WHO is to blame really? Just a thought...) is tooootally innocent :mello:)...but then he himself is kissing girls (fans, etc.) on the lips and stuff like that, so...I don't know. Kind of confusing. But like I said, I guess he was just a TYPICAL male after all? Maybe ALL guys really ARE the same? :scratch:I mean, look at what's going on with Tiger Woods, even. :scratch:Anyways...sorry for the rant...I guess I just have hit the lowest low in "all things love and relationships". :mello: (Just met a guy I had a HUGE crush on for YEARS in school...all the way from junior high until college...and as soon as I saw him...it was exactly like when I saw him the first time...in every way. Unfortunately. Me having a total crush...and he not even really wanting to know I exist. Some things never change. Love...BAH HUMBUG! :( :lol: )

Victoria83 said:
queen g, I'm so sorry, but your post really did discourage me and I won't be posting here as much, if at all, anymore. Sorry! The idea of "warrior" is that a warrior fights someone, something, or some force, and I thought it was worthy of discussion. What I was trying to express is that there cannot be "light" without the "dark," in a duet, struggle, or shifting balance. What part would the LITD woman play in that? I guess that's for you guys to discuss, or not discuss, now. That's ok, and I do understand. I love the depth of discussion here, but also it's necessary for me now to feel a sense of safety, and freedom in conversations? Maybe this board is just too big, or whatever? (I belong to other, private, boards, and that's ok. . .)

Carry on,

Vic
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I think the warrior post was interesting. I think we should try to look at things from all perspectives. :cheers:
 
Justus said:
Here is a quote i made on one of Ape's threads:

QUOTE:
Well this is a good thread. And prophets through the ages have never been accepted in their own land. So it is with Michael.

The message in the music is clear...and the good thing is that many are taking notice and taking ACTION. Can you imagine the smile on Michael's face? There are people who are getting past the "death" and keeping who he is ALIVE. The ESSENCE matters. The MESSAGE matters.

Change starts within ourselves and spreads like fire. The love and the change can radiate out from our very being, and make things happen the world over! You think you are just one little person who can't make an impact? think again! If everyone thought they couldn't make an impact, and waited on someone else to do it, nothing would ever get done. But, conversely, if EVERYONE thought they could do SOMETHING, SO MUCH could get done! This world is dark, because we allow it to be that way. Be the light, and spread it around. MAKE THAT CHANGE! TODAY!!!!!
END QUOTE

The subject of of love isn't just the subject of romance. It is all-encompassing. it is the subject of light, too. I know this particular thread has to do with the romance kind of love, but I am going to continue on this tangent for just a bit longer. :)

See in order for there to be love, of any form, there must be light, somewhere. Most people in this world, by the world's standards, would be in general, considered "good" people. There is of course a Biblical definition of the way people are - "we are all as filthy rags" and "no one is good, no not one", due to our sin nature. Compared to God and His righteousness, sure that's true. But that's not where I am headed with this. :p So back to Light.

Light/Love spreads, as does Darkness/Evil. BUT, fortunately, Light has the power to overcome. There can be no darkness where light floods every nook and cranny of a room. No shadows. The heart can be like that, when we allow it. It can glow, and we can glow right along with it (i.e. "Be God's glow!"). And when Light makes one room glow, thoroughly, it illuminates another, and another, and another. When the heart is absolutely FULL of Light, and Love, there is NO room for hate, no room for evil, no room for bitterness to fester (especially over circumstances over which we have no control). When injustes occur, there is every right to be angry (even Jesus got angry at times), but that passes. When someone dies, especially all of a sudden, we grieve at the loss of the person in our lives, but then realize hey, there is cause to celebrate this person's life! God has perfect timing, even when we don't realize it, even when we cannot explain it. For some people who have passed on, they were soooo full of Light, soooo full of Love, that even after the body has gone, the spirit/soul continues to be active, and the mission continues - only this time, with more freedom. The body gives a lot of limitations to the what the soul can really do. With Michael, this is very much true, and many of you can attest to this. With many other people, the soul rests for the rest of eternity. This is the general and standard way things are done, and how they are talked about.

I told you, some time ago, that Michael found love and light, right here on this board (mjjc as a whole). In more ways than one. So MANY of you here, have such a desire to keep his true legacy alive. This has occured both pre-June 25 and post. Those are the things that truly brought smiles to his face on here. SO much love. Michael is not God, is not Jesus, nor did he ever claim to be. In fact he denied that outright. He knew that people on this earth compare him to Jesus, and he felt that was a category that most certainly did not belong to him. His purpose, as it SHOULD be, has been to IMITATE Jesus, as much as possible. THAT's what draws people to him (and by the same token, makes others despise him), because not only is his heart just naturally full of Light, he USES it and makes it spread everywhere. For some people that takes a huge effot, for others it is a gift from God to have an ease to do that. When it is NOT used, tho, darkness can set in and make it useless. Just as with any gift of the Spirit.

What exactly is my point? I guess it would be that yes there are struggles on this earth, yes there is pain, but ultimately, Light overcomes everything. lol Love Overcomes Virtually Everything. I think it was ashtanga or someone that came up with that phrase. :) And it's true. And if you actually live by that, you can make yourself accomplish things that you never thought possible! Michael sure has! He overcame the odds (and they were many in his life). You know what though, his celebrity both helped AND hindered his mission. It helped in that he was well-known and had money/resources to get a lot done in mass quantity/quality. It hindered in that he was TOO well known and was a prisoner of his own identity almost his whole life. Not being able to go places w/o being mobbed, etc. SO much has a hinderance. There was/is MUCH more he's wanted/needed to accomplish, that it can only be done spiritually in some form.

So, be extensions, of not only Michael's Light and Love, but ultimately, the SOURCE of it, which is God. It matters not if you have no money - you can still make an impact in many people's lives. You have to trust that you can, do what you can, be Light and Love, spread Light and Love, Keep the Faith, etc. We're all connected. Don't wait until the last minute. Time IS running out.

BE the LOVE.
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Wise words and true. Thanks for this post! :flowers:
 
MysteriousPhoenix said:
Yeah, I thought it was either her or Loquicia Oppenheimer Vernique Evans!

Edit: But what I'm really upset about is that I'm not considered a "Legacy Member" on this board. I guess they don't think I was one of the ones who "did it all for L.O.V.E." If I didn't do it all for love, then what did I do it all for? Gingersnaps?

BTW, I always hated Gingersnaps and I would always get bought those! Why? I also hated when my dear, sweet grandmother would buy cookies. She always bought those cookies that were on sale 100 cookies for a dollar and they were always so dry and tasteless! They were so dry they would like fall completely apart with one bite. And forget about dunking them in milk, 'cause they would like completely dissolve because they were so dry they would just soak up they milk and get so soggy you couldn't hold onto them anymore and they would fall to the bottom of the glass and you would have to figure out how you were gonna retrieve it. Ah, memories! Nothing but the best growing up!
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I was kinda wondering about us too. I've been here since 2003 and have more than enough posts. I do have the gold one, which is quite plenty, but the only reason I have that is because I donated a small amount quite a while ago. Was nice to see the gold status though. So I wonder what I did it for if not L.O.V.E. or gingersnaps? ;) :better:

Really wonderful posts here everyone. I don't want to start naming names in case I leave someone out but they have all been really thought provoking, intelligent, thoughtful posts. :)
 
Justus said:
lol sorry my post got so long. :) I wrote a book again didn't I? but hey I'm glad you all liked it. See you later.
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Uh, yeah. So ... was that a "yes," "no," or "maybe so" in regards to my question?:unsure:


Sdeidjs said:
This is in reference to what Justus recently posted:

“I am only one; but still I am one.

I cannot do everything, but still I can do something.

I will not refuse to do the something I can do.”

Helen Keller
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This is shocking Sdeidjs, but I was just thinking about Helen Keller yesterday and what an amazing woman she was. And so was her teacher, Anne!


Victoria83 said:
The idea of "warrior" is that a warrior fights someone, something, or some force, and I thought it was worthy of discussion.
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Hi Vic!

I heard that you want to leave us. Well, I'm here to try to talk you out of it - especially since I feel partly to blame.

The day I wrote my post you were hearing from a very weary and battle-worn soldier. I really wasn't speaking specifically about your post in particular, I was really just talking about fighting evil in general. I actually liked your post, and if I had not been so burnt out, I was gonna comment that it is true that we are fighting the battle between good and evil everyday. A lot of people don't know this because it is an invisible battle, although we are able to see the effects of it.

You were right about seeing MJ as a warrior. I think he really identified with that role. I also thought of him that way as well, especially when seeing him all dressed up in his military regalia.

I think what got to me that day was the idea that the love story was already a story filled with endless battles and it seemed to end without a definite conclusion and it seems as though we are headed toward another series of battles. And, I know that going from battle to battle with no let up can be real fatiguing.

But, I just wanted to let you know not to take it personally and that I understood what you meant and appreciated it. I feel everyone in this thread is important and brought here for a reason and has something valuable to contribute to it. Hope you stick around to give us more of your thoughtful insight.


summer said:
And not only that, I also feel totally confused about MJ and what he said and I can't really figure him out. :scratch:
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Yes, I think this was another thing that had gotten me "down" lately. MJ's actions really could be contradictory at times ... which can really lead to a lot of confusion.

I had the startling revelation hit me the other day that maybe MJ wasn't so much in love with his LITD or any other person as much as perhaps he was in love with love. When he says in his movie that it's all for love, I wonder if he means that literally. As if to say he is doing it not so much for a particular person or people, but for the whole idea or concept of love in general. And, the fact that we concluded that he may have found out that he was loved before he "passed" and then he left immediately afterward made me think that maybe that was all he really wanted. Maybe he just wanted to BE loved rather than GIVE love back to someone. Maybe he didn't really know how. He was trained to be an entertainer, not to be in relationships. And, like you said, he didn't exactly have the best role models to learn from either.

It sounds strange I know, but there are many people out there who are in love with love or just knowing they are loved and that's enough for them, and maybe, that was enough for him too. I don't know. I could be really off base with this, but like you said, his contradictory actions could really lead to confusion sometimes.

Ape said:
I was kinda wondering about us too. I've been here since 2003 and have more than enough posts. I do have the gold one, which is quite plenty, but the only reason I have that is because I donated a small amount quite a while ago. Was nice to see the gold status though. So I wonder what I did it for if not L.O.V.E. or gingersnaps? ;) :better:
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Well, that's a whole lotta gingersnaps! And, I think you are more deserving of the title than I.
 
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summer i like your post... must say your not alone with your ideas. he is contradicting himself in many ways...
 
summer said:
Can you share, Lily? Would be interesting to know. :)

I personally can only say that I enjoy this thread, but I have never really had much to say because, like I have been saying, I'm not so good with the theories...and I think right now I have even less to say..or I don't want to say much because I don't want to bring the mood down...and I love this thread because it has always felt like it's a "place to go to get away" almost. To "re-charge" and get positive energy in some weird way. Like a "refuge". I mean, one of the things I was afraid of (and still am I guess) after Michael died was losing contact with all the fans...losing all these MJ discussions with fans, etc. You know, the "fan world". And it has been such a blessing that this thread survived MJ's death. Like I said, it gives energy in a weird way.

HOWEVER...at the moment I just feel totally "negative" about love. Like I've hit the lowest low in anything to do with love and relationships and at the moment I just don't even wanna really think about any of that stuff or be involved in any of that stuff. Like...ever again. I'm done.

And not only that, I also feel totally confused about MJ and what he said and I can't really figure him out. :scratch:I saw some clips on YouTube...and I read the parts he said to the Rabbi in that book...and it is very confusing. And I don't mean to judge, because who am I to judge...and I don't mean it the judgemental way...I am just trying to figure out who MJ was, what he meant with things he said, etc...I mean, it seems he blamed women for "seducing" married men (or men in general). It seemed like in his opinion the guys didn't do anything wrong, it was the women who used their bodies to seduce the men and it was all of the women's fault. And he said something like "I don't think it's good, but I understand it" about cheating. Which I don't get at all really. :scratch: But I guess, maybe he was just typical male...just like "all the guys"...if we are to "stereotype" like MJ seemed to stereotype women. :scratch:Anyways, another thing that I thought of was....that MJ seemed to be SO concerned of some woman getting his money that he didn't seem to want to get involved with any woman (seriously at least) unless she was rich and famous. And even then he'd think twice, it seemed. And when I was watching A Christmas Carol at the movies recently, this thought occured to me all of the sudden: Do you think that MJ was maybe a bit like Scrooge? You know, so afraid of "some woman" getting his money that he kept everyone (read:women) away at all cost, just like Scrooge? But in the end he was really keeping love and happiness away from himself too...just for the sake of a few millions maybe (or not even a penny...because how could he know if she would want ANYTHING...or couldn't he just have signed a pre-nup too?). You know, when you think about it...especially now that he is gone and things get put into a REAL perspective and you really see what kind of things count in life...so when you look back...What if he was so afraid of some woman getting a few millions out of his billion (or like I said, maybe even nothing at all because maybe she wouldn't have even wanted to...but even IF...) that he kept keeping love away. And for what? When you really think about it...what if he would have stopped being afraid (IF he was...don't know if he was...seems like it from what he was saying but I don't know him, so I can't say for sure) and would have been more open for love and maybe would have found "the love of his life" that way. Maybe the outcome would have been different than what it ended up to be? I mean, what are his millions worth to him now that he is dead? (Just to put things into perspective.) I don't know if anyone is following me but I hope some of you get what I mean. You know, what if he kept women (and that way true love) away from him out of a fear of losing a couple of millions? So he maybe died some millions richer...but in the end...when you look at the bigger picture, it makes you wonder if it was really worth it? You know, like I said...sort of like Scrooge...He had all this money...but what good did it do to him because he was alone and didn't enjoy life really (not saying MJ didn't enjoy life, but I hope that you get what I mean with the comparison?). Anyways, what I read about MJ saying about women and relationships...I just got more confused the more I read what he said. Because he said he picked women he REALLY liked to be in his videos...but then it bothered him if they started liking him because he didn't wanna get that serious. And that he liked the quiet, classy (rich &famous :lol:) type women....but that the girl had to ask him out. But I am not sure how many quiet, classy women would do that...? I guess there are some who would, but I'd say it's a minority? Usually those who are quiet are shy...so..can't really see them asking a guy out...It's usually the bold, self-confident type of girls that ask guys out. So isn't that kind of a contradiction? And wouldn't he always end up going out with the WRONG type then...the type that WOULD ask him out...but that wasn't HIS type really?:scratch: And then he said that he can go out on a date if a girl asks him...but it sounded like "sure, I can go (if I have nothing better to do)"...which doesn't sound exactly romantic or flattering towards the women. :scratch:So all those bits kind of confuse me...:scratch:And then MJ complaining about what his dad did to his mother with all the cheating and all that...but then he goes out with Lisa Marie and kisses her on the mouth while HE himself is married...And then he seems to blame women for seducing men (and it seems he's saying the guy who KNOWS HE is married (and who's to say he shares that info with the girl? So WHO is to blame really? Just a thought...) is tooootally innocent :mello:)...but then he himself is kissing girls (fans, etc.) on the lips and stuff like that, so...I don't know. Kind of confusing. But like I said, I guess he was just a TYPICAL male after all? Maybe ALL guys really ARE the same? :scratch:I mean, look at what's going on with Tiger Woods, even. :scratch:Anyways...sorry for the rant...I guess I just have hit the lowest low in "all things love and relationships". :mello: (Just met a guy I had a HUGE crush on for YEARS in school...all the way from junior high until college...and as soon as I saw him...it was exactly like when I saw him the first time...in every way. Unfortunately. Me having a total crush...and he not even really wanting to know I exist. Some things never change. Love...BAH HUMBUG! :( :lol: )
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I think MJ just got tired of women always trying to do him instead of trying to get to know him.

Example: Dirty Diana. In this song he's telling her no, right? He's telling her he's got someone. But, what does Dirty Diana start doing to him? She starts touching him...and you all know where. Then what happens? He gives in. Then what happens after that? He ends up staying late into the night with her and ends up having problems with his woman.

Example 2: Dangerous. In this song the same thing is happening to him. A woman approaches him in front of his woman. His woman gets upset and leaves him standing there. In this song who starts touching on who first? The woman starts touching on him first. Where is she touching him? She's touching him in that same area and what does he do? He gives in.

Example 3: Tiatiana. He has her in his video "The Way You Make Me Feel" and takes her on tour as a part of his concert so she can perform live with him. What does she do? She gets weak and next thing you know she's grabbing him by his shirt and pulling him into a kiss live on stage without asking him if he even wanted her all on him like that. lol Poor girl. She just could not resist. Changed up the script and thangs. lol Then what happens? Mike had to cut her loose to make her behave. LOL

Example 4: Another female performer was bettng the band members that she could turn him on, on stage. Did he bring her there for that? Nope. Next thing ya know she ends up going to where he's staying. Later she leaves. She looks rather proud of herself. Did she get to have him for keeps? Nope and next thing ya know she's outta there and she's mad as well. lol Oh well. That's what she gets for playing games. LOL

Seems like he just wanted to be able to pick who he wanted. Even if he was being asked out, it seems like he still would have been picking who he wanted. If he wanted to, he'd say sure and if he didn't want to, he'd most likely just say no thanks.

We have to remember that MJ did not grow up the same way that most people did. He spent the majority of his life entertaining the world. He did not get a chance to hang out in malls to meet girls and stuff. He did not get a chance to attend school dances where he could walk up to a girl and ask her to dance. Approaching girls takes practice. In addition to this, we have to remember that for most of his life the girls have always approached him first. That's just how it was for him. So, he must have just learned to go with things according to how things were going, but at the same time try not to do every single female that wanted to do him. It seems like some got lucky and many were turned away. Besides, it was not humanly possible to do all of the women that wanted to do him. He was only one person.

About the money part...

If we listen to what he was saying in many of his love songs we'd notice that he often said he was working to keep the women happy, giving them money, buying them jewelry and taking them places. It seems like with him being a man that loves women and that wanted to spend time with them that he did eventually just give some of them what they wanted. I guess he just went ahead because he could. But, in the end did it work out? From listening to what he was saying in previous loves songs things still did not work out.

But, if we listen to his most recent love songs we will notice that he was no longer saying things about what he would give. Instead, his most recent love songs have been about the love he was receiving and how he was really enjoying the feeling. He was receiving love without giving material things at all and it is most likely the reason why he kept saying the love was true. Notice that although he was going through some really tough things between 2001 and 2009 he still became happier and happier and happier. He was back to having fun again. It played out before our very eyes. He was smiling again. Laughing. He was giggling again. It's like he was thinking, "Finally...for once...love without a gimmick." It's like although the majority of his life has been moving much like those fleeting concerts, this love that he was feeling developed slowly and stretched out over a period of years.

If he were to have continued experiencing the type of disappointment as he had in the past, he would not have been able to withstand so much treachery on top of it. It would have been too much to endure and we would not have had him as long as we did.

But, from listening to what he was singing about lately, it seems like he fell in love and when he realized that he was, he didn't want to let anything get in the way of it because it took so long to happen. Next thing you know, he was ready to take on the world and have a good time doing it. Thank God for love. It's the only thing that was able to recharge him. Nothing else was going to work, because there is nothing like it and it is the main thing that he was asking for if we've been listening closely to his love songs.
:yes:

And then there's ummmm songs like "Got The Hots" which ummmm is saying thangs like...well ya'll know. Him wanted the goodies too. He was shy, but not that shy, huh?
:giggle:
 
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AllForMJ said:
I think MJ just got tired of women always trying to do him instead of trying to get to know him.

Example: Dirty Diana. In this song he's telling her no, right? He's telling her he's got someone. But, what does Dirty Diana start doing to him? She starts touching him...and you all know where. Then what happens? He gives in. Then what happens after that? He ends up staying late into the night with her and ends up having problems with his woman.

Example 2: Dangerous. In this song the same thing is happening to him. A woman approaches him in front of his woman. His woman gets upset and leaves him standing there. In this song who starts touching on who first? The woman starts touching on him first. Where is she touching him? She's touching him in that same area and what does he do? He gives in.

Example 3: Tiatiana. He has her in his video "The Way You Make Me Feel" and takes her on tour as a part of his concert so she can perform live with him. What does she do? She gets weak and next thing you know she's grabbing him by his shirt and pulling him into a kiss live on stage without asking him if he even wanted her all on him like that. lol Poor girl. She just could not resist. Changed up the script and thangs. lol Then what happens? Mike had to cut her loose to make her behave. LOL

Example 4: Another female performer was bettng the band members that she could turn him on, on stage. Did he bring her there for that? Nope. Next thing ya know she ends up going to where he's staying. Later she leaves. She looks rather proud of herself. Did she get to have him for keeps? Nope and next thing ya know she's outta there and she's mad as well. lol Oh well. That's what she gets for playing games. LOL

Seems like he just wanted to be able to pick who he wanted. Even if he was being asked out, it seems like he still would have been picking who he wanted. If he wanted to, he'd say sure and if he didn't want to, he'd most likely just say no thanks.

We have to remember that MJ did not grow up the same way that most people did. He spent the majority of his life entertaining the world. He did not get a chance to hang out in malls to meet girls and stuff. He did not get a chance to attend school dances where he could walk up to a girl and ask her to dance. Approaching girls takes practice. In addition to this, we have to remember that for most of his life the girls have always approached him first. That's just how it was for him. So, he must have just learned to go with things according to how things were going, but at the same time try not to do every single female that wanted to do him. It seems like some got lucky and many were turned away. Besides, it was not humanly possible to do all of the women that wanted to do him. He was only one person.

About the money part...

If we listen to what he was saying in many of his love songs we'd notice that he often said he was working to keep the women happy, giving them money, buying them jewelry and taking them places. It seems like with him being a man that loves women and that wanted to spend time with them that he did eventually just give some of them what they wanted. I guess he just went ahead because he could. But, in the end did it work out? From listening to what he was saying in previous loves songs things still did not work out.

But, if we listen to his most recent love songs we will notice that he was no longer saying things about what he would give. Instead, his most recent love songs have been about the love he was receiving and how he was really enjoying the feeling. He was receiving love without giving material things at all and it is most likely the reason why he kept saying the love was true. Notice that although he was going through some really tough things between 2001 and 2009 he still became happier and happier and happier. He was back to having fun again. It played out before our very eyes. He was smiling again. Laughing. He was giggling again. It's like he was thinking, "Finally...for once...love without a gimmick." It's like although the majority of his life has been moving much like those fleeting concerts, this love that he was feeling developed slowly and stretched out over a period of years.

If he were to have continued experiencing the type of disappointment as he had in the past, he would not have been able to withstand so much treachery on top of it. It would have been too much to endure and we would not have had him as long as we did.

But, from listening to what he was singing about lately, it seems like he fell in love and when he realized that he was, he didn't want to let anything get in the way of it because it took so long to happen. Next thing you know, he was ready to take on the world and have a good time doing it. Thank God for love. It's the only thing that was able to recharge him. Nothing else was going to work, because there is nothing like it and it is the main thing that he was asking for if we've been listening closely to his love songs.
:yes:

And then there's ummmm songs like "Got The Hots" which ummmm is saying thangs like...well ya'll know. Him wanted the goodies too. He was shy, but not that shy, huh?
:giggle:
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About the women and "who did what first"...Well, it still seems a bit unfair and "judgmental" towards women to blame them...and make it seem like the man didn't have a choice. I guess I've just always had a problem with anyone justifying cheating with "But SHE(/he) started it...SHE(/he) seduced me...I am innocent!". Like you don't have a mind of your own and can't think for yourself and can't make your own decisions. I mean, how old is that person? Five? :doh: In MY opinion (but that's just really my opinion) if one is married(/ in a relationship) and loves and respects the person one is married (/in a relationship) to and doesn't want to hurt that person, the answer is "NO" to other people. It's that simple. There will ALWAYS be people who will try to seduce someone else...I mean, hello...newsflash?! :doh: :lol: Single or not, there are always people who will try to get a person in bed with them. But how are THEY to blame? If the girl is single and the guy is married...well, the girl isn't in a relationship. She can do what she wants. Sleep with who she wants. But if the guy is married, then there is no other option than a simple "No thanks!". I really have a problem with guys going "Oh don't blame me...blame her! I didn't have a choice!" Yeah, RIGHT! Sheesh! :doh: Besides, just a thought...how can any girl get anywhere with a guy, unless he is willing too? JUST a thought...So how is the girl to be blamed? NOT saying hitting on men who are not availabe is right either, but I'm just saying I have a problem with putting the blame on the women and making it seem the men didn't have any part in that and the women are "oh so evil and dangerous". And like I said...it would not be the first time that a girl had something going on with a married man...because she didn't even KNOW he was married. Could happen to any girl (or vice versa to a guy too...that they are hitting on a woman and have a relationship and think she's single when she is in fact married...but just never told him). Anyways, since I don't know Michael and don't know how exactly he thought about women, I can only go by what he said...and that part about blaming women felt a bit unfair in my opinion. A bit hurtful in a way. But on the other hand, like you said, he didn't grow up like the rest of us and didn't really have the best role models for relationships...I guess it's in a way understandable that he'd think that way. But still, I couldn't help but to feel a bit "offended" in a way when I read that. Or thinking "Gosh, that is SUCH a guy thing to say!! SHEESH!!!" :rant: :lol: :lol: :lol: But on the other hand, I guess, like I said earlier, I guess I am also at the point where I'm like "EFF LOVE"...so my views on guys probably aren't the most positive either. So because of that I can understand if MJ at some point felt like "EFF LOVE!!! EFF WOMEN!!" too because he was just really disappointed. :scratch:

Anyways. End of rant. :lol: I hope he found true love before he died though. :angel: I really would wish him that. He really deserved it.
 
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Maybe it's me but I don't believe in not practicing what you preach. How can someone speak of LOVE in all of it's vast forms/meanings, yet not be open to it if it comes into their life? It's like, ok I choose this LOVE but when it comes to falling INLOVE, nah? Where is the TRUTH in the MESSAGE? I don't get it. -_-

summer said:
Can you share, Lily? Would be interesting to know. :)
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I'm not going to share much here, but I will send you the website name privately. According to some of the things mentioned MJ did have a long time love, she is referred to as his "spiritual wife", of Indian descent or some other ethnicity I can't remember, it's something like that, her name begins with 'S', there is much more said but I won't repeat it here. It has also been mentioned that the "Ghost" video girl is his long time love as well, that info comes from one person repeatedly who most say is actually the video girl posting about herself, go figure.....Anyway, this MJ forum is quite large and I was shocked when I saw it after not lurking on this site for over 7 years. Theres alot to take in and imo is loosely moderated. Some things I have seen and read are.....um????? Well anyway, that's about all I'm going to say here. It is what it is, and we can believe what we will.

Now back to our beautiful discussion about LOVE, light, magic, mystery, romance.....:p

~~~~~

Sidenote: If any of you have the chance to read Helen Kellers biography, I highly recommend it. She was a very inspirational woman. :)
 
Lily said:
I'm not going to share much here, but I will send you the website name privately. According to some of the things mentioned MJ did have a long time love, she is referred to as his "spiritual wife", of Indian descent or some other ethnicity I can't remember, it's something like that, her name begins with 'S', there is much more said but I won't repeat it here. It has also been mentioned that the "Ghost" video girl is his long time love as well, that info comes from one person repeatedly who most say is actually the video girl posting about herself, go figure.....Anyway, this MJ forum is quite large and I was shocked when I saw it after not lurking on this site for over 7 years. Theres alot to take in and imo is loosely moderated. Some things I have seen and read are.....um????? Well anyway, that's about all I'm going to say here. It is what it is, and we can believe what we will.
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Off Topic...

It is every one believe or not believe these stories disseminated by sites (press and peolple). Where there will be thousands of stories about it and wonder how many are there and that has not yet reached us. But to what extent it is true?

Well, if this were really true, I'll say with any absolute certainty that this woman did not know its role in the life of Michael. It is a fact proven by all the things that happened in Michael's life. Everything would have been completely different. I'm sure.

It's just a thought of mine, for I still believe that "she" does not exist.

:)
 
I for one, LOVE the story of Helen Keller. So inspiring. :) I am glad you brought her up, Sdeidjs.

I was not aware that there were people who interpreted what Michael said about L.O.V.E. to be a particular someONE. I guess I assumed everyone thought it had to do with how I myself got it, which is being in love with love itself. Hm. Intriguing.

And gingersnaps??? welllll...gimme some gingerBREAD cookies, and I'll gobble them right down!! And some hot apple cider! it's that time of year. omg I can't believe Christmas is right around the corner.

:)
 
ashtanga said:
:clapping:

Beautiful post Justus! :wub:


I think in all the videos, even though no energy/lightning bolts, everyone has a great positive energy shown in different ways, but it connects with the spiritual energy.

I love the video "Earth Song" which is a big warning for us to take care of our planet. That video is very deep, sensitive and spiritual. It's about loving the planet, love everything in it and take care of everything in it and prevent the destruction of the planet.
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Ah yes, Earth Song...lightning...one with the earth...rolling back time to how things SHOULD be.........
 
ashtanga said:
Off Topic...

It is every one believe or not believe these stories disseminated by sites (press and peolple). Where there will be thousands of stories about it and wonder how many are there and that has not yet reached us. But to what extent it is true?

Well, if this were really true, I'll say with any absolute certainty that this woman did not know its role in the life of Michael. It is a fact proven by all the things that happened in Michael's life. Everything would have been completely different. I'm sure.

It's just a thought of mine, for I still believe that "she" does not exist.

:)
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The internet of all places is a huge facade. Do I personally think it's true? I dunno. According to some, "she" has been around for a very long time, even as recent as this year. Is it reality? Like I said, we believe what we will. :)

Justus said:
I was not aware that there were people who interpreted what Michael said about L.O.V.E. to be a particular someONE. I guess I assumed everyone thought it had to do with how I myself got it, which is being in love with love itself. Hm. Intriguing.
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I think the topic of this thread "DMJFLITD" may have something to do with the interpretation of LOVE as being about someone. Was the happiness he showed because of someone? Was the TII song or any others for that matter written and sung with someone in mind? Who knows. Maybe you're right, L.O.V.E. means MJ was just in LOVE with LOVE? :)
 
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