The Investigation Surrounding Conrad Murray Thread (ALL POSTS/ARTICLES on Charges, etc. GO HERE!)

[thrillerchild]

Would that training still hold even if its someone as BIG as Michael celebrity wise?

 

[BillieJean84]

I still think ths was no accident. As somone else said here, Michael Jackson is too important to have something like this happen to him ; I do believe Dr. Murray knew what he was doing & possibly a motive if not money, could be just that fact that ...its Michael Jackson. Isn't that motive enough?



& noone answered my other question: Couldn't Dr. Murray if thats even his name, get 'Tampering with Evidence' after trying to cover it up???

 

[Beachlover]

Medically, who uses PROPOFOL.

As a nurse I have worked in various settings over the years so I am going to share what i know about using the Propofol.

You do NOT have to be a trained anesthesiologist to use it. It doesn't say that in the Physicians Desk Reference and it doesn't say that in a lot of other drug resources. It is a wonderful drug and has many uses.

Say you break a bone and they need to reset this bone. They can give you this drug and reset the bone and you wake back up and it is done. Of course, this is done with a Code Blue cart nearby in the hospital or facility. It is given during plastic surgeries, dental procedures, etc. It has been reported all the time as this drug just for surgery, but it has many uses. It is used in the ICU to keep patients sedated at times.

When overdosed it stops breathing and the 'fix' is to mechanically ventilate the patient until they can breathe on their own. In the photo of Michael in the ambulance, there was a mechanical breathing tube inserted into his airway as well as a "Central Line" catheter which is for giving fluids directly to the blood stream of the heart. You can easily push drugs into their system that way and they can have an immediate effect on the heart.

I don't understand what the hospital was 'doing' to Michael when he got there. He was already mechanically ventilated so they would have just hooked him up to a heart monitor and the ventilator there and given some rescue drugs to get the heart beating.

It is a drug that is not a controlled substance, meaning it isn't a narcotic. It is also not uncommon to give other sedatives that were given along with the Propofol. None of that really sends out a red flag to me. But ok......

Propofol comes in a vial and there is a concentration to it. You have a bag of fluid you add it to. You give a continuous drip of it. This keeps the patient sedated just enough to keep them sedated but breathing. It is used like this all the time. Murray would have had to mix it and make a concentration into the bag. Its not different in a way than making powdered drink mix. Too much and its too sweet and not enough and it tastes like water. So, you have to know how much to use to make the proper concentration.

Any number of things could have gone wrong here. He could have mixed it incorrectly. He should have used an IV Pump to regulate flow. If he didn't have a pump there, then thats leaving a room for overdose. The patient can simply move their arm and the flow rate can increase or decrease and that changes the amount they receive.

So, there are many questions I had about what was there in the room. Did he use a pump to regulate flow? Or, did he just use the drip method. Where on his body was the IV. There are places on the body such as the crook of the inside of the elbow which is a great place for an IV if the arm is totally straight. If it is slightly bent the flow decreases. A sleeping person can move. So, if he had it running at just say 10 drips a minute and the patient moves, it can increase to 30. But you have to be there if its on a DRIP and not using a pump. You can't leave the patient alone with this sort of drug in that case.

There are MANY drugs in the hospital I would NEVER even consider giving without a pump because the patient be seriously hurt or die from a quick infusion.

Murray was a licensed cardiologist who did procedures on people. He more than likely used this drug before. They do use it during procedures at times. He was trained.

I am not so willing to say he was a bad doctor or didn't know what he was doing.

I do however ask what he was thinking if he had no oxygen sensor on his patient, and didn't have the proper equipment to get him breathing again. Oxygen tanks are great but you need to have an ambu bag to get them breathing attached to it. I don't know if he did that. None of us do. We only have second hand information.

Remember one thing here and this is NOT a defense of Murray at all, but a logical statement. The police took down what he said but it was condensed into what they logically thought in the warrants so many parts could easily have been left out if they didn't feel it necessary to say it to get the warrant. He had a 3 hour conversation with them. We don't know all he said or did.

The man has a shady background with women and money....but that alone doesn't make you a bad doctor. I know a few doctors that are what I would call 'hornbags' and they are great doctors. I don't think he was necessarily stupid. I reserve that judgment until all the facts come in because I don't know what happened in that room. All I am saying here is that I am willing to hear it from his mouth first before I call him an idiot.

All things point to that he didn't follow protocol and in that sense was negligent and therefore guilty of malpractice. This is where it gets sticky because he is a doctor. As Ramona keeps saying, its hard to convict a doctor. This is the big challenge for the police and the DA. The flip side to this is WHY he was giving this drug and the defense team is going to run with that. It is their job to discredit Michael. Thats their job.

Also, Murray can not say anything about it. He would not be allowed to apologize. That admits guilt. He actually has said nothing. Its all been his lawyers. He has not changed any story. We just have to wait as hard as it is to come out in court.

I feel that eventually we will hear more from other people that were in the house but they were probably told not to speak to anyone before hand. Even so, it is what really was given, when and what the doctor did about it that concerns me.

I am just waiting to hear all the facts come out and make a judgment. I have always maintained that if he is guilty he should be punished.

 

[Moddie777]

I do not believe he screwed up. I'm sorry.
My mind doesn't allow me to ever believe this it seems. A cardiologist knows.
I can't help myself but my mind is always telling me Murray knew. But he obviously still didn't perform it.
The police and/or the DA have to find out why!!!
Unless Murray bought his dr. and never saw neither a school nor a University from the inside. There is NO WAY a cardiologist doesn't know. It's crazy seems my mind is laughing about me whenever I try to get only that possibility entering it.
Cardiologists usually have that in their automatical emergency content as a fix pattern... so they can't really act wrong anymore... that's how studied they are in CPR.
They would have to instantly stop and start the thinking process to get out of that pattern.

Ok I give up... but I can't help it... it's impossible I'll ever convince my mind to only give it the tiniest possibility to believe that could be true... that Murray just was in panic and did some unfortunate faults. I'll never believe that. I'm not able to...:no:

Of Course he knew!

Don't apologize for feeling this way or having this instinct.

 

[Ramona122003]

Medically, who uses PROPOFOL.

As a nurse I have worked in various settings over the years so I am going to share what i know about using the Propofol.

You do NOT have to be a trained anesthesiologist to use it. It doesn't say that in the Physicians Desk Reference and it doesn't say that in a lot of other drug resources. It is a wonderful drug and has many uses.

Say you break a bone and they need to reset this bone. They can give you this drug and reset the bone and you wake back up and it is done. Of course, this is done with a Code Blue cart nearby in the hospital or facility. It is given during plastic surgeries, dental procedures, etc. It has been reported all the time as this drug just for surgery, but it has many uses. It is used in the ICU to keep patients sedated at times.

When overdosed it stops breathing and the 'fix' is to mechanically ventilate the patient until they can breathe on their own. In the photo of Michael in the ambulance, there was a mechanical breathing tube inserted into his airway as well as a "Central Line" catheter which is for giving fluids directly to the blood stream of the heart. You can easily push drugs into their system that way and they can have an immediate effect on the heart.

I don't understand what the hospital was 'doing' to Michael when he got there. He was already mechanically ventilated so they would have just hooked him up to a heart monitor and the ventilator there and given some rescue drugs to get the heart beating.

It is a drug that is not a controlled substance, meaning it isn't a narcotic. It is also not uncommon to give other sedatives that were given along with the Propofol. None of that really sends out a red flag to me. But ok......

Propofol comes in a vial and there is a concentration to it. You have a bag of fluid you add it to. You give a continuous drip of it. This keeps the patient sedated just enough to keep them sedated but breathing. It is used like this all the time. Murray would have had to mix it and make a concentration into the bag. Its not different in a way than making powdered drink mix. Too much and its too sweet and not enough and it tastes like water. So, you have to know how much to use to make the proper concentration.

Any number of things could have gone wrong here. He could have mixed it incorrectly. He should have used an IV Pump to regulate flow. If he didn't have a pump there, then thats leaving a room for overdose. The patient can simply move their arm and the flow rate can increase or decrease and that changes the amount they receive.

So, there are many questions I had about what was there in the room. Did he use a pump to regulate flow? Or, did he just use the drip method. Where on his body was the IV. There are places on the body such as the crook of the inside of the elbow which is a great place for an IV if the arm is totally straight. If it is slightly bent the flow decreases. A sleeping person can move. So, if he had it running at just say 10 drips a minute and the patient moves, it can increase to 30. But you have to be there if its on a pump.

There are MANY drugs in the hospital I would NEVER even consider giving without a pump because the patient be seriously hurt or die from a quick infusion.

Murray was a licensed cardiologist who did procedures on people. He more than likely used this drug before. They do use it during procedures at times. He was trained.

I am not so willing to say he was a bad doctor or didn't know what he was doing.

I do however ask what he was thinking if he had no oxygen sensor on his patient, and didn't have the proper equipment to get him breathing again. Oxygen tanks are great but you need to have an ambu bag to get them breathing attached to it. I don't know if he did that. None of us do. We only have second hand information.

Remember one thing here and this is NOT a defense of Murray at all, but a logical statement. The police took down what he said but it was condensed into what they logically thought in the warrants so many parts could easily have been left out if they didn't feel it necessary to say it to get the warrant. He had a 3 hour conversation with them. We don't know all he said or did.

The man has a shady background with women and money....but that alone doesn't make you a bad doctor. I know a few doctors that are what I would call 'hornbags' and they are great doctors. I don't think he was necessarily stupid. I reserve that judgment until all the facts come in because I don't know what happened in that room. All I am saying here is that I am willing to hear it from his mouth first before I call him an idiot.

All things point to that he didn't follow protocol and in that sense was negligent and therefore guilty of malpractice. This is where it gets sticky because he is a doctor. As Ramona keeps saying, its hard to convict a doctor. This is the big challenge for the police and the DA. The flip side to this is WHY he was giving this drug and the defense team is going to run with that. It is their job to discredit Michael. Thats their job.

Also, Murray can not say anything about it. He would not be allowed to apologize. That admits guilt. He actually has said nothing. Its all been his lawyers. He has not changed any story. We just have to wait as hard as it is to come out in court.

I feel that eventually we will hear more from other people that were in the house but they were probably told not to speak to anyone before hand. Even so, it is what really was given, when and what the doctor did about it that concerns me.

I am just waiting to hear all the facts come out and make a judgment. I have always maintained that if he is guilty he should be punished.

That maybe true, but there is several problems with this. Murray's lawyers never said anything were wrong with the warrants. The only thing they complain about was the timeline. The lawyer went out of his way to explain how Murray did CPR, however, he did not explain why he even gave CPR if he had a slight pulse. His lawyer is the one who said Michael had a pulse and was still alive, which does not explain the CPR. As a lawyer, that is a huge mistake since the CPR could of very well stopped his heart.

Sorry, no one is a good doctor when they leave the room with a person under heavy drugs, even if it was for ten minutes. Also he had 3 phone calls spanning 45 minutes, during the time period if either found Michael or was pumping drugs into him. Both are bad in its own way. Murray's lawyer never said also that he used in medical equipment to revive Michael. He said Murray gave Michael a drug, too lazy to look up the name, that was suppose to revive him before starting CPR. All the drugs were listed in the tox and that particular drug was never mention, but Murray's lawyer did not say anything about it. The only thing he talked about was the amount. I think it would be important as a lawyer to ask what happen to this drug if it was not listed since it would show Murray did everything in his power to save Michael.

The lawyer also did not explain why Murray waited to call 911. He said himself that Murray waited before calling for help, which is a big no, no for a doctor. He also had a cell phone which he could had use to call 911 himself. Murry claimed in the search warrant, once again the lawyer never debated this, that Murray did not use his cell phone because he could not get a signal and there was no phone in the room. So, where exactly did he use his cell phone? When the cell phone calls were mention, his lawyer than stated he didn't know the address. So, he thought it was be better to revive Michael himself instead of give a security his cell phone and telling them to call 911 while he stabilize Michael?

Even if we don't know everything, the lawyers never deputed or deny anything in those search warrants. The only thing they try to debunk was the timeline by calling it police theory. However, he said nothing else about what I have mention above. It is unwise to give you defense away, but the timeline is only one major problem for Murray and his defense team didn't even try to address the others.


With all that said, I heavily doubt anything was plan. Saying he did it just because he was Michael Jackson is not any real motive since Michael would be dead a long time ago if people who worked with him were that shallow. Especially while using a method that leaves your hand in the cookie jar and making glaring errors. Those who comment crimes try to make everything perfect so they won't be caught. They are usually found out because they usually miss something relatively simple in their perfect plan. This has way too many errors and lack some sense to be masterminded.

Like I said, Murray would have to be a very dumb assassin to the point of being retarded to kill someone with such a drug and then do a piss poor job covering it up. This points more to a major screw up and him doing everything that he could to cover it before even attempting to call for help.

 

[BillieJean84]

and I hope that he'd get something with bringing out a substance, out of the medical environment but they said that since Propofyl is not a controlled substance then, its not illegal to bring it out of the medical settings.

 

[Ramona122003]

Of Course he knew!

Don't apologize for feeling this way or having this instinct.

You mean he knew he screwed up, that is apparent. However, awhile plan murder does not have that many holes. While plan murders are usually over plan to the point that the suspect misses something obvious that get him busted.

I think if he was thinking straight and this was plan, he would had made sure to perform everything up to the standards of a doctor. As a doctor, why would he tell a story that does not make sense if he was planning murder from the start?

Also, why did he have Michael in his room to begin with? He could of just pump him full of common drugs, let Michael die in his room and just discovered the body in the morning. That way, we don't have that break in time where the chief said Murray usually came downstairs to get breakfast. That delay in the time is damning and Murray would want to make sure everything appeared to be a normal day.

Discovering Michael's body and staging an OD would be alot easier to explain and put plausible deniable in people's heads more so than him completely screwing up CPR and waiting to call for help.

 

[Ramona122003]

and I hope that he'd get something with bringing out a substance, out of the medical environment but they said that since Propofyl is not a controlled substance then, its not illegal to bring it out of the medical settings.

They can only get him on negligence. Propofol is not illegal to use or have outside of a hospital. Also, since all evident shows that Michael was not an addict, they cannot charge him with given drugs to an addict. Nothing Murray did while given the drug is illegal. If Michael did die, no one could touch Murray because it is not against the law, even if the tabs somehow found out about it.

What they can and most likely will charge him with is everything he did after Michael stopped breathing. Leaving the room would had only gotten him a negligence charge, but everything he did afterward does show willful blindness. Especially if the guy had nothing to revive to Michael with. As a train doctor, he should know better.

 

[Beachlover]

That maybe true, but there is several problems with this. Murray's lawyers never said anything were wrong with the warrants. The only thing they complain about was the timeline. The lawyer went out of his way to explain how Murray did CPR, however, he did not explain why he even gave CPR if he had a slight pulse. His lawyer is the one who said Michael had a pulse and was still alive, which does not explain the CPR. As a lawyer, that is a huge mistake since the CPR could of very well stopped his heart.

Sorry, no one is a good doctor when they leave the room with a person under heavy drugs, even if it was for ten minutes. Also he had 3 phone calls spanning 45 minutes, during the time period if either found Michael or was pumping drugs into him. Both are bad in its own way. Murray's lawyer never said also that he used in medical equipment to revive Michael. He said Murray gave Michael a drug, too lazy to look up the name, that was suppose to revive him before starting CPR. All the drugs were listed in the tox and that particular drug was never mention, but Murray's lawyer did not say anything about it. The only thing he talked about was the amount. I think it would be important as a lawyer to ask what happen to this drug if it was not listed since it would show Murray did everything in his power to save Michael.

The lawyer also did not explain why Murray waited to call 911. He said himself that Murray waited before calling for help, which is a big no, no for a doctor. He also had a cell phone which he could had use to call 911 himself. Murry claimed in the search warrant, once again the lawyer never debated this, that Murray did not use his cell phone because he could not get a signal and there was no phone in the room. So, where exactly did he use his cell phone? When the cell phone calls were mention, his lawyer than stated he didn't know the address. So, he thought it was be better to revive Michael himself instead of give a security his cell phone and telling them to call 911 while he stabilize Michael?

Even if we don't know everything, the lawyers never deputed or deny anything in those search warrants. The only thing they try to debunk was the timeline by calling it police theory. However, he said nothing else about what I have mention above. It is unwise to give you defense away, but the timeline is only one major problem for Murray and his defense team didn't even try to address the others.


With all that said, I heavily doubt anything was plan. Saying he did it just because he was Michael Jackson is not any real motive since Michael would be dead a long time ago if people who worked with him were that shallow. Especially while using a method that leaves your hand in the cookie jar and making glaring errors. Those who comment crimes try to make everything perfect so they won't be caught. They are usually found out because they usually miss something relatively simple in their perfect plan. This has way too many errors and lack some sense to be masterminded.

Like I said, Murray would have to be a very dumb assassin to the point of being retarded to kill someone with such a drug and then do a piss poor job covering it up. This points more to a major screw up and him doing everything that he could to cover it before even attempting to call for help.

There was a conversation early on where I believe it was Chernoff who said much of it is 'police theory' regarding the search warrants.

I believe they would not say anything and wait for it to come out in the end because thats their defense. Why give away your entire defense? The smart thing is to keep quiet and when it all comes out in court they dispute it at that time and blow the DA out of the water. Thats what I think the strategy is. (on their part)

I don't know what was said in that room. I know what was said on the search warrants, but I don't have the whole conversation from that interrogation room at the police station.

Not disagreeing with you here, but just saying that I feel there are missing parts to the puzzle. They may or may not go in Murrays favor. I don't know. It will all come out shortly and I don't want to sit here saying Murray is an angel and a great doctor when I don't know. I only know that he is a licensed cardiologist in good standing and there are no patients coming forward to say otherwise, with the exception of one that had a procedure they claim went wrong which to me looked rather shady, but thats all I saw.

So, I am willing to hear him out before I raise the gauntlet.

 

[twinklEE]

Tension Between LAPD and D.A. in Jackson Case

Posted Feb 4th 2010 9:27AM by TMZ Staff
LAPD officials feel slighted by the Los Angeles County District Attorney in the Michael Jackson case, and the cops made their point clear in a secret meeting yesterday .... law enforcement sources tell TMZ.

Sources say there was a "high level meeting" yesterday between officials from both departments. The D.A. had kept the LAPD in the dark over the arrest and prosecution of Dr. Conrad Murray. In fact, until yesterday the LAPD was not informed of any plan for the arrest or surrender of Murray on involuntary manslaughter charges.

We reported earlier in the week that lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray had been in touch with the D.A. and planned to drive the doctor themselves to the courthouse where he would be arraigned. That plan would have completely excluded the LAPD from the process.

The D.A.'s plan was especially maddening for the LAPD because detectives in the Robbery Homicide Division had spent months putting the complicated case together. Inside sources say it's one of the best, most thorough investigations the LAPD has conducted in years.

The upshot of yesterday's meeting -- the D.A. and LAPD made a plan -- the LAPD will place Dr. Murray under arrest on Friday morning, handcuff and book him, then take him to court at 1:30 where he will be arraigned

I hope this is the truth, though I'm highly skeptical, given the LAPD's history in genera,l and their past actions against Michael Jackson.
​

 

[BillieJean84]

Tension Between LAPD and D.A. in Jackson Case

Posted Feb 4th 2010 9:27AM by TMZ Staff
LAPD officials feel slighted by the Los Angeles County District Attorney in the Michael Jackson case, and the cops made their point clear in a secret meeting yesterday .... law enforcement sources tell TMZ.

Sources say there was a "high level meeting" yesterday between officials from both departments. The D.A. had kept the LAPD in the dark over the arrest and prosecution of Dr. Conrad Murray. In fact, until yesterday the LAPD was not informed of any plan for the arrest or surrender of Murray on involuntary manslaughter charges.

We reported earlier in the week that lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray had been in touch with the D.A. and planned to drive the doctor themselves to the courthouse where he would be arraigned. That plan would have completely excluded the LAPD from the process.

The D.A.'s plan was especially maddening for the LAPD because detectives in the Robbery Homicide Division had spent months putting the complicated case together. Inside sources say it's one of the best, most thorough investigations the LAPD has conducted in years.

The upshot of yesterday's meeting -- the D.A. and LAPD made a plan -- the LAPD will place Dr. Murray under arrest on Friday morning, handcuff and book him, then take him to court at 1:30 where he will be arraigned

If this is from TMZ staff, who knows just how accurate it is lol. They are generally but they been wrong afew times since, no?

 

[Limonali]

Beachlover thanks for the insight, I read it with an interest...

 

[Beachlover]

Sometimes things don't make sense to me when told by the news.

I would think the DA would have to read the investigation BEFORE making any decisions. They just received the case so why would the LAPD feel as if they are kept out of that? Whats to tell them if they are just trying to figure out what exactly the case is or isn't?

Of course the inside source at the LAPD thinks they did the best job. Everyone thinks they do the best job until someone comes along and points out the flaws in it.

I believe the Associated Press said Friday.

 

[Ramona122003]

There was a conversation early on where I believe it was Chernoff who said much of it is 'police theory' regarding the search warrants.

I believe they would not say anything and wait for it to come out in the end because thats their defense. Why give away your entire defense? The smart thing is to keep quiet and when it all comes out in court they dispute it at that time and blow the DA out of the water. Thats what I think the strategy is. (on their part)

I don't know what was said in that room. I know what was said on the search warrants, but I don't have the whole conversation from that interrogation room at the police station.

Not disagreeing with you here, but just saying that I feel there are missing parts to the puzzle. They may or may not go in Murrays favor. I don't know. It will all come out shortly and I don't want to sit here saying Murray is an angel and a great doctor when I don't know. I only know that he is a licensed cardiologist in good standing and there are no patients coming forward to say otherwise, with the exception of one that had a procedure they claim went wrong which to me looked rather shady, but thats all I saw.

So, I am willing to hear him out before I raise the gauntlet.

The only thing Chernoff called police theory was the timeline. I remember him clearly saying that when the tox was release. He didn't even seem to know about the cell phone calls because in one of his first interviews, he gave Murray's original timeline. When the interviewer pointed out that Murray's cell phone records showed he was on the phone, he changed the timeline right there. He also said that there was no signal in the room, which is why Murray could not call for help right away. When the phone calls were mention, he changed it to, he didn't know the address. He also complain about the timeline in the tox, but didn't bother to say anything about the drug Murray was suppose to have given him to revive him. He also said that Michael had a slight pulse when Murray did CPR.

This is not search warrants, this is all stuff that came out of Chernoff's mouth. I know you are not suppose to give you defense away, but you should at least fix the glaring errors in his own statements. Also, how it is given away the defense to say that one of the drugs listed is missing? That seems like something you would say before talking about the timeline. I also think it is important say that he had medical equipment in the room if something goes wrong since he keeps insisting Murray did everything to save him. Yet, he never said that. He clearly said that Murray give Michael a drug to reverse the drug effect and did CPR on the bed with is hand behind his neck and did it with one hand. When that was not working, he then ran downstairs to get help.

That slight pulse statement is important to the defense because Chernoff is trying to show Michael was still alive when help arrived. However, he shot himself in the foot because you don't do CPR on someone with a pulse.

One last note before I forget. Murray's doctor bag was hidden from sight to the point the police missed it in its first search and Michael's own family missed it when they cleared the house. Between Murray trying to save Michael and the 911 call, when did Murray have time to hide the bag with every drug he had given him inside it. Even the suppose revival drug. Wouldn't that drug in particularly be by the bed since Murray was using it. Also, why was other drugs scattered across the room, but none of it was in Michael's body. Keep in mind, Michael was found in Murray's room, not his own. As a doctor, why would you have pill bottles everywhere on the floor and the pill form of a drug you gave someone in a liquid by the bed?

I would like Murray to explain the above paragraph.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover thanks for the insight, I read it with an interest...

You're welcome. There are many things which I question because they don't make sense to me and thats why I don't think we have accurate information.

The public is fed information from news sources that is outright wrong at times. They even had a video on CNN showing how Propofol is used but the whole idea that it is ONLY used in an OR is wrong.

There is also something called "Off Label Use" of a drug which is how Murray can get around using the Propofol as a sleep aid. While we may all be shocked at that, there is a flip side to Off Label Use which is when a patient needs a drug perhaps to treat Cancer and many times drugs are not approved for use in children but if a certain drug will help your child and the law says "We can't use it for that. Its not approved" it would be a shame.

So, this is how he can use the Propofol as he did.

 

[Beachlover]

Ramona, again, I am not disagreeing with you. I am only saying I don't know what the reasons for these things are and saying that I don't know all the facts here because in my honest opinion, everything was not mentioned. I don't know why Cernoff didn't argue some of the points but my gut tells me that he didn't know enough about medicine and neither did the police. After they all realized what they were dealing with they clammed up. That is just what I have seen happen here. Since then they have not changed a thing because I think the strategy changed in the law office of the attorneys. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, all signs point to him being grossly negligent. This is what he is being charged with.

As a side note, Brian Oxman has been helping to build Murrays case, so in that sense he has an extra lawyer working for him that he doesn't even have to pay.

 

[Rockin.]

Tension Between LAPD and D.A. in Jackson Case

Posted Feb 4th 2010 9:27AM by TMZ Staff
LAPD officials feel slighted by the Los Angeles County District Attorney in the Michael Jackson case, and the cops made their point clear in a secret meeting yesterday .... law enforcement sources tell TMZ.

Sources say there was a "high level meeting" yesterday between officials from both departments. The D.A. had kept the LAPD in the dark over the arrest and prosecution of Dr. Conrad Murray. In fact, until yesterday the LAPD was not informed of any plan for the arrest or surrender of Murray on involuntary manslaughter charges.

We reported earlier in the week that lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray had been in touch with the D.A. and planned to drive the doctor themselves to the courthouse where he would be arraigned. That plan would have completely excluded the LAPD from the process.

The D.A.'s plan was especially maddening for the LAPD because detectives in the Robbery Homicide Division had spent months putting the complicated case together. Inside sources say it's one of the best, most thorough investigations the LAPD has conducted in years.

The upshot of yesterday's meeting -- the D.A. and LAPD made a plan -- the LAPD will place Dr. Murray under arrest on Friday morning, handcuff and book him, then take him to court at 1:30 where he will be arraigned

:smilerolleyes: - even Michael is making that face.

Yet another date for an arrest... we'll see..

I can't believe anything the media says anymore.

 

[kasume]

:smilerolleyes: - even Michael is making that face.

Yet another date for an arrest... we'll see..

I can't believe anything the media says anymore.

If this is true about the D.A. and LAPD, I wouldn't be surprised. The D.A. just received some $$$$$$$ from those in charge of Michael's estate.

But the only thing that bothers me is, ONLY Murray? That upsets me. That's not thorough investigation.

I hope other arrests are made too. Actually, other arrests NEED to be made. Thome, especially, wherever he's hiding.

Well, we'll see tomorrow if this is true.....

 

[Limonali]

There is also something called "Off Label Use" of a drug which is how Murray can get around using the Propofol as a sleep aid. While we may all be shocked at that, there is a flip side to Off Label Use which is when a patient needs a drug perhaps to treat Cancer and many times drugs are not approved for use in children but if a certain drug will help your child and the law says "We can't use it for that. Its not approved" it would be a shame. So, this is how he can use the Propofol as he did.

I wonder: Is this "Off Label Use" strong enough of an argument to justify the MISUSE of Propofol in this case??
Is this left to the personal doctor solely to decide whether to use a medication off label?
And if - which is hard to accept - he will be explained thanks to that 'Off Label Use' thing when it comes to actually administering it outside of the hospital - administering it BADLY (if that was the case) should NOT be justified by it, me thinks.

Sorry I'm just confused and with every day that's passing I feel like I actually know less than I knew before.
I wish we could finally learn all information... (which sometimes I doubt will ever happen)...

 

[Ramona122003]

Ramona, again, I am not disagreeing with you. I am only saying I don't know what the reasons for these things are and saying that I don't know all the facts here because in my honest opinion, everything was not mentioned. I don't know why Cernoff didn't argue some of the points but my gut tells me that he didn't know enough about medicine and neither did the police. After they all realized what they were dealing with they clammed up. That is just what I have seen happen here. Since then they have not changed a thing because I think the strategy changed in the law office of the attorneys. I hope that makes sense.

Yes, all signs point to him being grossly negligent. This is what he is being charged with.

As a side note, Brian Oxman has been helping to build Murrays case, so in that sense he has an extra lawyer working for him that he doesn't even have to pay.

More like grossly stupd. :smilerolleyes:

No offense Beach, but you theory about the lawyer does not make much sense. Why would a lawyer take on a case about a drug if he didn't bother to do his homework on it before he did the media rounds? It make sense that the LAPD did not know much because only certain doctors really heard of Propofol being use as a sleep aid. However, this lawyer had two days to talk to Murray about what happen and find out everything he could about Propofol. As a defense lawyer, is it you job to know everything.

I also can't see how he screw the timeline since he talked directly with Murray and only changed it when the cell phone calls were mentioned. Shouldn't he knew about those as well and have been prepare with a statement since that is pretty damning. And how as a lawyer of a doctor do you not know not to use CPR on someone with a pulse.

Chernoff did some sloppy things, that is putting it nicely. He failed to get his story right and he didn't even research the drug that is the center of the entire investigation. He also was edging towards the fact that Michael was taking other drugs without Murray's knowledge and that nothing Murray gave him should not had killed Michael. Which is why Murray was 'shock' when Michael was not breathing. This either shows that Cernoff and Murray really didn't know a thing about Propofol and the cocktail he gave him or he is a really bad liar. Either one is bad.

 

[Ramona122003]

If this is true about the D.A. and LAPD, I wouldn't be surprised. The D.A. just received some $$$$$$$ from those in charge of Michael's estate.

But the only thing that bothers me is, ONLY Murray? That upsets me. That's not thorough investigation.

I hope other arrests are made too. Actually, other arrests NEED to be made. Thome, especially, wherever he's hiding.

Well, we'll see tomorrow if this is true.....

Excuse me, but what evident do you have that Michael's estate is paying the DA? Also, that would be a conflict of interest if they were and could use to help Murray's defense. Not to mention the people from the estate would be brought up on changes of bribery and such. You also don't know if they was or was not a thorough investigation just because your theories about a grand murder plan does not appear to be true.

I also love how Thome's name is just thrown in there, yet no one has any proof of involvement with Michael during his last days. Not liking a person does not equal them being a murder and Thome directly gains nothing for Michael's death. If anything, he actually loses since he can't get money from Michael anymore.

Please, if you do not have facts to back up your claims save such things for the IU. One is more than enough for this board.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

But the only thing that bothers me is, ONLY Murray? That upsets me. That's not thorough investigation.

I hope other arrests are made too. Actually, other arrests NEED to be made. Thome, especially, wherever he's hiding.

Well, we'll see tomorrow if this is true.....

I hope to God people are checking out Tohme. He was at the hospital and with Jermaine when he made the announcement - why? (Not to mention it was first reported that he was the doctor that injected him (with Demerol) and that he was with him when he stopped breathing, Not Murray. And if it was misinfo...where the heck did they get his name from?) He was all over the media and even giving a few weird and shady interviews for a hot minute, then it all stopped. I really hope that the LKL interview he set up and then postponed and then just...never rescheduled was dropped because of something having to do with the investigation or something like that. There are a lot of people who were talking and then once the investigation really started we stopped hearing from them. I hope they (along with Tohme) will be heard from in court.

 

[BillieJean84]

Forgive me, but who is this Tohme & Tiger?? I've read about these 2 ppl that are potentially suspects as well but don't know what role they play and or who they are etc. Thanks.

 

[Ramona122003]

I wonder: Is this "Off Label Use" strong enough of an argument to justify the MISUSE of Propofol in this case??
Is this left to the personal doctor solely to decide whether to use a medication off label?
And if - for reasons that are emotionally difficult for me to accept - he will be explained thanks to that 'Off Label Use' thing when it comes to actually administering it outside of the hospital - administering it BADLY (if that was the case) should NOT be justified by it, me thinks.

Sorry I'm just confused and with every day that's passing I feel like I actually know less than I knew before. I wish we could finally learn all information... (which sometimes I doubt will ever happen)...

It does not matter if it is "Off Label". Propofol is not illegal to use outside a hospital so that point is moot. Also, off-label does not make a drug less dangerous and Murray mess up because he gave Michael all that medication on top of the Propofol and then left the room. It does not take a medical degree to know that was both careless and stupid.

Murray maybe able to justify why he gave the Propofol, but he can't justify why he left a patient unattended when under the influence of multiple drugs, one being a drug with a zero margin of error. If he did OD him with Propofol to boot, that shows that he did not know what he was doing to begin with.

He also can't really justify his action by saying Michael ask for it because by Murray's own statement, he gave him multiple drugs before the Propofol. So by logic, Michael would not be thinking straight and could not be accounted for his own safety because he is under the influence.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

Forgive me, but who is this Tohme & Tiger?? I've read about these 2 ppl that are potentially suspects as well but don't know what role they play and or who they are etc. Thanks.

Hmm? Tiger? Never heard of a 'Tiger'... :scratch:

Here's the thread on Tohme.
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72708

No one can, definitively, say who he is - just who he tells us he is - and that seems to conflict with a lot of other people's statements.

It's complicated. I don't wanna get into it here, but this is a brief overview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKB6l0eDBUE

 

[kasume]

I also love how Thome's name is just thrown in there, yet no one has any proof of involvement with Michael during his last days. Not liking a person does not equal them being a murder and Thome directly gains nothing for Michael's death. If anything, he actually loses since he can't get money from Michael anymore.

I'm not even going to argue.

 

[Ramona122003]

I hope to God people are checking out Tohme. He was at the hospital and with Jermaine when he made the announcement - why? (Not to mention it was first reported that he was the doctor that injected him (with Demerol) and that he was with him when he stopped breathing, Not Murray. And if it was misinfo...where the heck did they get his name from?) He was all over the media and even giving a few weird and shady interviews for a hot minute, then it all stopped. I really hope that the LKL interview he set up and then postponed and then just...never rescheduled was dropped because of something having to do with the investigation or something like that. There are a lot of people who were talking and then once the investigation really started we stopped hearing from them. I hope they (along with Tohme) will be heard from in court.

Tha information about Tohme has been proven to be false. Tohme went to the hospital with Jermaine and never went to Michael's house. He was with Jermaine because the two are friends.

Also, any story with Demerol has been proven to be false because Demerol was not even in Michael's house when he died. Tohma is also to my understanding not an actually doctor and can't even get drugs. I also find it hard to believe that with all the cameras and fans that surrounding Michael's house 24/7 that anyone could sneak into the house, give some a fatal OD of drugs, and leave again without anyone being the wiser.

The main reason I have personally seen for people turning Tohma into some mastermind is because most fans don't like him. He did some shady stuff, but so has Oxman who is currently helping Murray's defense team, yet I see no one accusing him of murder.

 

[Beachlover]

More like grossly stupd. :smilerolleyes:

No offense Beach, but you theory about the lawyer does not make much sense. Why would a lawyer take on a case about a drug if he didn't bother to do his homework on it before he did the media rounds? It make sense that the LAPD did not know much because only certain doctors really heard of Propofol being use as a sleep aid. However, this lawyer had two days to talk to Murray about what happen and find out everything he could about Propofol. As a defense lawyer, is it you job to know everything.

I also can't see how he screw the timeline since he talked directly with Murray and only changed it when the cell phone calls were mentioned. Shouldn't he knew about those as well and have been prepare with a statement since that is pretty damning. And how as a lawyer of a doctor do you not know not to use CPR on someone with a pulse.

Chernoff did some sloppy things, that is putting it nicely. He failed to get his story right and he didn't even research the drug that is the center of the entire investigation. He also was edging towards the fact that Michael was taking other drugs without Murray's knowledge and that nothing Murray gave him should not had killed Michael. Which is why Murray was 'shock' when Michael was not breathing. This either shows that Cernoff and Murray really didn't know a thing about Propofol and the cocktail he gave him or he is a really bad liar. Either one is bad.

We are on the same side here and I just have a few things in my head that don't sit right. I think a lot of what the lawyers said in the first days as well as the rest of the reporting being done was inaccurate in the sense that no one knew enough to make intelligent statements. People were blaming Demerol and other drugs and that was never the case.

Chernoff likely did NOT know enough about Propofol. Its not a drug that is well known and thats why they hired a lawyer more familiar with this. This is what I mean by them changing their strategy. I think even the police didn't know what they were dealing with and thats normal and why the DA would bring in expert witness to testify about medical things. Lawyers are not doctors and they don't know medicine and have to rely on others or study it as we have done.

When this first came out everyone was 'shocked' and the fans went nuts saying it should not have been done at home and it was murder, etc. Only over time do people now realize more about the drug. So, I agree. Chernoff did not know enough at the beginning and it likely hurt his case but we don't know till it all comes out. I don't disagree with that.

What I am saying is that I don't think it was Murray who didn't know. I think it was his lawyer. Once they realized what they were really dealing with they changed strategy. You are right about other things being a big issue, such as the phone calls and time line, etc. I don't dispute that. I just wonder what really was the sequence of events.

I also wonder if the 'tox' report we got was totally accurate regarding all the drugs. (Meaning....there are other drugs that are given during CPR and since he was seen by EMT and the Emergency Room things would have been given there as well. No one seems to have given the antagonist for pain killers which is a red flag for me. Was it given and not on the tox screen? I don't know. Just little things that can be a bigger deal in court later on.

 

[Loopy]

All i can say is PLEASE, PLEASE GOD let Michael get the justice he deserves tomorrow.

 

[Ramona122003]

We are on the same side here and I just have a few things in my head that don't sit right. I think a lot of what the lawyers said in the first days as well as the rest of the reporting being done was inaccurate in the sense that no one knew enough to make intelligent statements. People were blaming Demerol and other drugs and that was never the case.

Chernoff likely did NOT know enough about Propofol. Its not a drug that is well known and thats why they hired a lawyer more familiar with this. This is what I mean by them changing their strategy. I think even the police didn't know what they were dealing with and thats normal and why the DA would bring in expert witness to testify about medical things. Lawyers are not doctors and they don't know medicine and have to rely on others or study it as we have done.

When this first came out everyone was 'shocked' and the fans went nuts saying it should not have been done at home and it was murder, etc. Only over time do people now realize more about the drug. So, I agree. Chernoff did not know enough at the beginning and it likely hurt his case but we don't know till it all comes out. I don't disagree with that.

What I am saying is that I don't think it was Murray who didn't know. I think it was his lawyer. Once they realized what they were really dealing with they changed strategy. You are right about other things being a big issue, such as the phone calls and time line, etc. I don't dispute that. I just wonder what really was the sequence of events.

I also wonder if the 'tox' report we got was totally accurate regarding all the drugs. (Meaning....there are other drugs that are given during CPR and since he was seen by EMT and the Emergency Room things would have been given there as well. No one seems to have given the antagonist for pain killers which is a red flag for me. Was it given and not on the tox screen? I don't know. Just little things that can be a bigger deal in court later on.

Beach,

What am I trying to say is that Murray should had told his lawyer exactly what happen. That includes the Propofol. Murray knew what he gave Michael and should had told his lawyer. Otherwise, he wouldn't be caught with is pants down.

Also, he did tell his lawyer because in the police interview he gave before Lee blew the whistle, he told the LAPD he gave Michael Propofol and where his doctor bag was. So, Cernoff cannot really claim that he didn't know unless he didn't read Murray's police's interview and Murray didn't tell him everything.

It was also the general public and the media that was blaming Demerol. The LAPD knew what was going on when they first talked to Murray and he told them the cocktail he gave them, Demerol not included. Demerol was also never found at his house to begin with, so the police had an idea on what the tox would look liked long before the general public or the media knew a thing. The only ones who were really in the dark was us.

Murray most likely changed his strategy when he realize that there was no drugs that Michael was taking himself, there were only drugs that Murray gave him found in his body, Propofol was the main cause of death along with another drug that he gave him, and he was in good physical shape.

He also might had done more research into Propofol and realize that his statement about Michael forming an addiction to it did not match up with actual Propofol addiction. Not to mention you wean people off of Propofol with pills if they do form an addiction, not other liquid medication.