Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

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Defense theory suggests pop star was suffering from withdrawal from Demerol at time of death

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/42218751/ns/today-entertainment/

LOS ANGELES — A judge decided Tuesday to review medical records from Michael Jackson's longtime dermatologist before deciding whether the documents should be turned over to defense attorneys seeking to show the singer was addicted to a powerful painkiller at the time of his death.

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor will review files from Dr. Arnold Klein that cover the final nine months of Jackson's life.

Klein is fighting the release of the files to attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray, citing patient confidentiality rules. Murray has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the death of the pop star.

Attorneys for Murray say they need to review the files to see if the records support a defense theory that Jackson was suffering from withdrawal from the painkiller Demerol when he died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009.

The lawyers contend Klein frequently injected Jackson with Demerol and the singer became addicted to the treatments.

"Due to Dr. Klein's actions, Mr. Jackson became physiologically and psychologically dependent on Demerol," Murray's attorneys wrote in a motion filed Monday. "Dr. Murray's right to this information in the criminal case greatly outweighs any privilege or privacy rights asserted by Dr. Klein pertaining to the records of Mr. Jackson who is now deceased."

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

Authorities have accused Murray of giving the singer a lethal dose of the anesthetic propofol, which is normally administered in hospital settings. His attorneys have said he did not give the singer anything that should have killed him.

Klein's attorney Garo Ghazarian said during the hearing Tuesday that the defense hadn't shown any evidence that Jackson was addicted to Demerol or that any of Klein's treatments were improper.

Pastor said he will review the files on April 6 and also hear from an attorney for Jackson's estate, who have not waived any of the singer's privileges.

Some of Klein's medical records have already been turned over to coroner's officials who investigated Jackson's death.

Murray's attorneys Ed Chernoff and Nareg Gourjian said they have reviewed those files. They agreed to limit any records requests to the last nine months of Jackson's life, when the singer returned to Los Angeles and began preparing for a series of comeback concerts titled "This Is It."

Jury selection in Murray's case begins Thursday. Hundreds of potential jurors are being summoned to a downtown Los Angeles courthouse where they will begin filling out questionnaires that Pastor said currently spans 29 pages and contains 125 questions.

The judge met in closed session with attorneys to finalize the questionnaire. Opening statements are expected to begin on May 9.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

^ not surprised...chernoff asked that question in the transripts about withdrawal symptoms on the 19th. He brought up that michael was sweating on the 19th, and Kenny said "No, he wasn't sweating." Just had chills and seemed to be in a kind of state that he was just unable to perform.


However, chills are also a side effect of propofol.

conrad can bring in his medical experts, and the pros. will bring in theirs!
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

That above story clearly shows us that the subpoena for Klein is for his medical records and that he's trying to stop that.

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

and here's your reasonable doubt. If /When self injection/ self drinking theory fails, they plan to go with "accident" route blaming Klein and Demerol for Michael's "unexpected reaction" to Propofol.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

But for that to be true there would have to be Demerol in his system for the reaction to happen. Two things working together has to cause the synergistic effect. You can't say it caused a bad reaction because there was no Demerol in Michael's system at all.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

there's so many stories from them
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

But for that to be true there would have to be Demerol in his system for the reaction to happen. Two things working together has to cause the synergistic effect. You can't say it caused a bad reaction because there was no Demerol in Michael's system at all.
exactly...I think the defense missed that memo...:clapping::clapping:
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

and here's your reasonable doubt. If /When self injection/ self drinking theory fails, they plan to go with "accident" route blaming Klein and Demerol for Michael's "unexpected reaction" to Propofol.

I agree with this. But I also think they are still trying to go with the self-administration theory. To me, it's like someone mentioned here before. In my opinion as well, it sounds like they want to blame Klien for Michael's supposed decline in health in the days before his death and they also want to blame Michael for the fatal dose on the day he died.
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

And there is no if ands or buts about it you give a person to much Propofol outside of a hospital setting without any equipment and you give it to them to fast they will stop breathing. This was not a complication do to drugs mixing wrong this was a guy who had no business doing what he did and someone died. Klein is everything I said he was in the past and you know this is kind of his fault for being such a fucker but in this case he is right. Murray is trying to pin his mistake on Klein and more over he is accusing Klein of causing Michael to die and I am sorry but that is not the case
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

But for that to be true there would have to be Demerol in his system for the reaction to happen. Two things working together has to cause the synergistic effect. You can't say it caused a bad reaction because there was no Demerol in Michael's system at all.

exactly.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

I agree with this. But I also think they are still trying to go with the self-administration theory. To me, it's like someone mentioned here before. In my opinion as well, it sounds like they want to blame Klien for Michael's supposed decline in health in the days before his death and they also want to blame Michael for the fatale dose on the day he died.


Kenny Ortega said Michael nailed it on June 23 and June 24 there was no bad health. And lets not forget when Michael was not feeling well who said Michael was fine and got on Kenny for sending him home?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

because what does any withdrawal symptoms have to do with giving that last dosage of propofol?

nothing but reasonable doubt is a monster. see the law says you need to convict someone without any doubt , you must be sure.

this is an evil plan to portray Michael's death inevitable or other factors playing a role "he was overworked, he was stressed, he was too thin, he was already an addict, he was mixing drugs, those drugs had interactions, he was cornered so that he would self inject / self drink / self destruct".

and all they need is one witness that says "well that's possible" and here's your doubt.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

the guy needs to run under a bus
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

This expert they want is not a forensic pathologist. This guy is a anesthesiologist. How is an anesthesiologist going to contradict a coroner? A coroner's job is to find out how someone dies an anesthesiologist job is to sedate people. That is like radiologist telling a gynecologist they did a GYN exam wrong
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

nothing but reasonable doubt is a monster. see the law says you need to convict someone without any doubt , you must be sure.

this is an evil plan to portray Michael's death inevitable or other factors playing a role "he was overworked, he was stressed, he was too thin, he was already an addict, he was mixing drugs, those drugs had interactions, he was cornered so that he would self inject / self drink / self destruct".

and all they need is one witness that says "well that's possible" and here's your doubt.

but..does the autopsy report NOT refute all that?? Of course is does. Doesn't that legal document hold any water??? They can tell WHAT Michael had in his system by the report...they can tell his weight..by the report. How can reasonable doubt be put in place if all of those things are false. and there is medical documentation to PROVE that they are false?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

post removed.
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

nothing but reasonable doubt is a monster. see the law says you need to convict someone without any doubt , you must be sure.

this is an evil plan to portray Michael's death inevitable or other factors playing a role "he was overworked, he was stressed, he was too thin, he was already an addict, he was mixing drugs, those drugs had interactions, he was cornered so that he would self inject / self drink / self destruct".

and all they need is one witness that says "well that's possible" and here's your doubt

exactly, that's why the prosecutors need to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt, they have to address these issues , if they want to guarantee a conviction , the self-injection theory must be eliminated.

Reasonable doubt will be all over the place if the people's expert witness takes the stand to tell jurors " he was a known addict , and even if Murray did not do it , I would still call it homicide "

this is UNACCEPTABLE and some jurors will dismiss his opinion .

no way 12 jurors will agree to convict Murray if they are left with indications that MJ could have done it himself , NO WAY , NO CHANCE regardless of how many times people re post the description of the charge . common sense ALONE tells us there is ZERO guarantee 12 different individuals would agree to convict a man of contributing to someone else death if the deceased is called a known addict by the people's expert , and if they felt he could have injected himself . what makes it worse the fact that the defendant is a doctor who's been claiming he was detoxing an addict.


this ridicolous approach by the prosecutors " based on what Murray said we believe ...." shut the **** up and do your job, start with your witnesses especially the expert who does not even believe MJ asked for propofol to sleep .
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

see below. The subpoena sent to Klein and his objection is about "Michael's medical documents", it's not about a trial testimony.

I appreciate the fans that go to the court but they really should refrain from making definitive statements.


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the news story also show as that Murray's lawyers agreed to a modified subpoena (from any and all medical records to last 9 months) and as the judge will decide on it on April 6th it's certainly not thrown out (squashed). It's ongoing.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

but..does the autopsy report NOT refute all that?? Of course is does. Doesn't that legal document hold any water??? They can tell WHAT Michael had in his system by the report...they can tell his weight..by the report. How can reasonable doubt be put in place if all of those things are false. and there is medical documentation to PROVE that they are false?

For his weight you are right.

Medical questions for people that are knowledgeable in the medical area

- did they check for demerol in the autopsy?

- is interaction between demerol (or demerol withdrawal) / propofol possible?

- (if yes to above question) would any interaction between demerol / demerol withdrawal and propofol will be apparent in autopsy?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

I doubt the judge will even allow Klein's records to come in since MJ's body had none of Klein's drugs in him. Besides Murray had been MJ's doctor for 3 years. Did he not know about Arnie Klein? He knew Mike had vitiligo. So maybe Murray should've contacted Klein to find out what treatments he was giving his patient? Aren't doctors supposed to talk especially when you're treating a world famous patient? and why didn't Murray notice his only patient going through an alleged withdrawal? if MJ was acting irratic and sweating and so on, Murray didn't notice? He just pumped him up with more stuff and sat and chatted on the phone? This will not work at all
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

And from Murray's response to Klein we learn the following

Estate gave a letter stating their objection of Michael's medical records being given to the defense.

The below is Murray's defense explanation of why they request Klein's documents

" The documents sought are medical records prepared by Dr. Klein in reference to Mr. Jackson. As court is aware Dr. Klein was Mr.Jackson's physician for a number of years. Dr. Klein administered frequent IM injections of Demerol to Mr.Jackson. Due to Dr. Klein's action Mr.Jackson became psychologically and physiologically became addicted to Demerol. In fact Mr.Jackson was receiving injections of Demerol and midazolam from Dr. Klein for several months preceding the last days of his life. Indeed Mr. Jackson received 26 IM injections of demerol and midazolam during his visits with Dr. Klein. Certainly Dr. Klein is a relevant and highly material witness to the defense. Dr. Murray's right to this information in this criminal case greatly outweighs any privacy or privilege rights asserted by Dr. Klein pertaining the records of Mr. Jackson who is now deceased. Accordingly these records sought by the defense should be produced."

Murray's defense also argues that as Klein gave his records to the coroner's office he waived physician- patient privilege and therefore has to produce the records to the defense.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Poor MJ.. I just wished he would've left the doctors alone. They both took advantage of him for the money. Klein should've left MJ's face alone and Murray had no business at all giving anyone anesthesia at home.

Again what does this have to do with what happened on June 25th? According to Murray's own words, MJ was fine and healthy.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Even if klein was given Michael Demerol where did Murray's lawyers get the idea Michael was addicted? And Klien did not give them anything it was subpoenaed
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Here is the thing. For what Murray's lawyers to be alleging to be true that would mean that everyday Klein was given Michael demerol. On a daily basis all the time. Then one day just stopped and in the time he stopped Michael's body shut down because of it. Thanks to his creditors claim we know that Michael last saw Klein on June 22 2009 A guy going through withdrawal is not going to do the things Michael did on June 23 and June 24 I am sorry it does not work that way. There are people who would testify that Michael was on his game that night that he did dry run of the whole this is it show and showed no sign of being ill and certainly showed no sign of going through withdrawal. Murray wants to say things that are impossible killed Michael I am sorry it is not going to work. But let me just say this also now you see why people were so pissed at Michael's family for calling Michael an addict
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Defense attorney J. Michael Flanagan has said a potential defense expert witness contends Jackson was showing signs of Demerol withdrawal before his death, and that may have complicated his reactions to other medications.

and here's your reasonable doubt. If /When self injection/ self drinking theory fails, they plan to go with "accident" route blaming Klein and Demerol for Michael's "unexpected reaction" to Propofol.

I don't see how any juror can sit there and think that really!

To do that they would have to completely ignore the fact that Murray gave MJ Propofol at all especially at home where it don't belong! Then just left him like that without watching him! They would have to be cold hearted not to give a ish about that!
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Here is the thing. For what Murray's lawyers to be alleging to be true that would mean that everyday Klein was given Michael demerol. On a daily basis all the time. Then one day just stopped and in the time he stopped Michael's body shut down because of it. Thanks to his creditors claim we know that Michael last saw Klein on June 22 2009 A guy going through withdrawal is not going to do the things Michael did on June 23 and June 24 I am sorry it does not work that way. There are people who would testify that Michael was on his game that night that he did dry run of the whole this is it show and showed no sign of being ill and certainly showed no sign of going through withdrawal. Murray wants to say things that are impossible killed Michael I am sorry it is not going to work. But let me just say this also now you see why people were so pissed at Michael's family for calling Michael an addict

Exactly justthefacts.. We said 2 years ago when MJ's wonderful family got on tv calling him an addict and talking about interventions that this would come up. I won't be shocked if Murray tries to call one of them to support his theory. Again if the family knew Klein or any other doctor was intentionally drugging up MJ for no medical reason and was intentionally trying to make him an 'addict' why the hell didn't they do anything? Klein has been MJ's dermatologist for over 25 years. If they were suspect about him why didn't they call the medical board 20 years ago? They all knew who MJ's dermatologist and plastic surgeon was. Why not report them and file a case against them for unethical dealings with MJ?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

also how can the judge allow this when there is no proof of demerol anywhere in MJ's system? that didn't cause his death. In addition why didn't Murray, who was Mike's physician for 3 years, notice his client was in withdrawal? if he saw his patient sweating and panicking and acting strange why didn't he take him to the hospital? Murray knew of MJ's chills when it was 95 degrees in June 2009. He had to know something wrong was going on, but he did not take MJ to the hospital. What does that tell you?

Also Klein had nothing to do with Murray in that bedroom injecting MJ with sedatives and propofol and talking to his girlfriends non-stop.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

The judge had not said he would do anything he said he would look over it
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Also if Murray is saying Klein got MJ addicted to demerol, then that means Murray should be charged with administering and prescribing to an addict. In addition Murray claims MJ was getting addicted to the propofol yet he still gave it to him. Another charge.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

Also Murray wants to see Klein's medical records, where the hell are Murray's medical records? and shouldn't Murray have had MJ's records before he started treating him? I know when I switched doctors my records were transferred and then my current doctor took a full physical with blood work and urine samples.

Did Murray ever take a physical exam of MJ before he started drugging him up?
 
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