Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

[sophie]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

One of the things KZ wrote on Trial and tribulations, is that she was surprised at the use of a condom catheter. My understanding of what she said, is that Murray was anticipating a prolonged "deep" sedation.

what do you think of that ? Would it be necessary if Michael was kept asleep with lorazepam or the condom catheter would suggest sedation with an aneasthetic ?

lorazepam in connection with diuretics/fluids and bph (prostate enlargement) can lead to enuresis/incontinence according to what i read.

mj had high lorazepam levels. usually, the daily max dose in a not intubated patient would be 4mg. the blood levels indicate mj had been given 7-12mg (acc to ruffalo). a ICU patient who was given high lorazepam doses would usually be intubated and catheterized.

the autopsy report says the bladder contained 550ml. that's a full bladder. in the urine bottle at scene was 450ml. if it was from the same night 1l of urine had been produced. murray had given iv fluids and juice bottles had been found at bedside, so seems mj had been drinking o-juice on top of the iv fluids which murray gave him.

with the high lorazepam dose, the fluids and since mj had bph, it's quite possible mj had developed enuresis, that could be the reason for the condom catheder, to avoid an "accident".

the large amount of urine collected also indicates mj had been sedated for a much longer period of time than murray admits. a usual production rate would be 50ml/h, with the fluids murray gave let's assume a higher rate of 100ml/h, if mj died at noon the urine would still have been collected since at least 7am. urge usually sets in at 250-300ml according to what i read, it should have set in at least at 10am, yet murray claims he gave the propofol bolus at shortly before 11am. why didnt mj empty his bladder before murray sedated him?


i just googled the topic and have seen that here's a mj blog where the topic is discussed as well:

http://gatorgirl277.blogspot.com/2011/03/but-i-have-got-to-pee.html
http://www.lipstickalley.com/blogs/ms-chesapeake/but-i-have-got-pee-1682


s. here for causes of enuresis:

Some medications have been documented to cause nocturnal enuresis as a side effect including hypnotics or medications taken for insomnia and drugs taken for psychiatric purposes such as thioridazine, clozapine, and risperidone. Obstructive sleep apnea or sleep disorders can cause nocturnal enuresis as well. Be sure to talk to your healthcare provider about any medications prescribed and their side effects. Much research supports the belief that secondary enuresis in adults is usually a serious symptom of an underlying problem that should be investigated. Generally, this type of bedwetting occurs with other symptoms and is often associated with daytime wetting. Adult onset nocturnal enuresis is often a result of problems with the urethra, such as prostatic or primary vesicle neck obstruction. Such problems can be associated with the prostate in men or pelvic organ prolapse in women.

Additional causes of secondary enuresis may also include diabetes, urinary tract infection, urinary tract stones, neurological disorders, anatomical abnormalities, urinary tract calculi, prostate cancer, prostate enlargement, bladder cancer, and obstructive sleep apnea. In very rare cases, acute anxiety or emotional disorder may cause adult bedwetting.

src: http://www.nafc.org/bladder-bowel-health/bedwetting-2/adult-bedwetting/

Nocturnal enuresis is the term used to describe bedwetting in children who are old enough to be toilet-trained and adults who experience loss of bladder control at night.

Causes of temporary incontinence:

- Alcohol, caffeine and other diuretics
- Drinking too much liquid
- Urinary tract/bladder infections
- Bladder irritants like carbonated drinks, citrus fruits and juices and artificial sweeteners
- Medications including sedatives, diuretics, muscle relaxants, antidepressants, blood pressure drugs, heart medications and cold medicines
- Constipation

In men, incontinence is often caused by problems with the prostate.

src: http://www.continence-fdn.ca/pdf/The-Source.pdf


drugs which can cause incontinence:

[...]

Sedatives (diazepam, flurazepam, lorazepam): Can slow mobility and worsen urge incontinence

Diuretics: Increase urination by increasing urine production

src: http://www.merckbooks.com/mmha/pdf/table2_excerpt.pdf

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

lorazepam in connection with diuretics/fluids and bph (prostate enlargement) can lead to enuresis/incontinence according to what i read.

mj had high lorazepam levels. usually, the daily max dose in a not intubated patient would be 4mg. the blood levels indicate mj had been given 7-12mg (acc to ruffalo). a ICU patient who was given high lorazepam doses would usually be intubated and catheterized.

the autopsy report says the bladder contained 550ml. that's a full bladder. in the urine bottle at scene was 450ml. if it was from the same night 1l of urine had been produced. murray had given iv fluids and juice bottles had been found at bedside, so seems mj had been drinking o-juice on top of the iv fluids which murray gave him.

with the high lorazepam dose, the fluids and since mj had bph, it's quite possible mj had developed enuresis, that could be the reason for the condom catheder, to avoid an "accident".

the large amount of urine collected also indicates mj had been sedated for a much longer period of time than murray admits. a usual production rate would be 50ml/h, with the fluids murray gave let's assume a higher rate of 100ml/h, if mj died at noon the urine would still have been collected since at least 7am. urge usually sets in at 250-300ml according to what i read, it should have set in at least at 10am, yet murray claims he gave the propofol bolus at shortly before 11am. why didnt mj empty his bladder before murray sedated him?

i just googled the topic and have seen that here's a mj blog where the topic is discussed as well:

http://gatorgirl277.blogspot.com/2011/03/but-i-have-got-to-pee.html
http://www.lipstickalley.com/blogs/ms-chesapeake/but-i-have-got-pee-1682

s. here for causes of enuresis:

src: http://www.nafc.org/bladder-bowel-health/bedwetting-2/adult-bedwetting/

src: http://www.continence-fdn.ca/pdf/The-Source.pdf

drugs which can cause incontinence:

src: http://www.merckbooks.com/mmha/pdf/table2_excerpt.pdf

Good post.

I think the "Murray only gave 25 mg of propofol" strategy is a defense strategy designed to support the theory, "Murray didn't give him anything that 'should have' killed him." The defense will no doubt try to float the idea that the propofol dose was so low, that Michael didn't need monitoring. Prosecution will argue, that ANY amount of propofol given at home is dangerous, with no additional staff, adequate monitoring, or rescue equipment. Clearly the high amounts of benzos given negates the theory that "Murray didn't give him anything that should have killed him." The amount of benzos, plus the incontinence pad and condom catheter, support the idea that the benzos, alone, could have caused Michael to stop breathing, i.e. deep sedation. (see bolded, above) The presence of the incontinence pad and condom catheter also support the idea that Murray KNEW, very well, that what he was doing would cause deep, and dangerous, sedation.

The "25mg" theory leads to the narrative of Murray saying, "I didn't give him anything that should have killed him," and THAT leads to either the "he drank the propofol" narrative (pretty easily disproven by the autopsy report), or the "he gave himself the fatal dose" narrative. Which paints Murray as a VICTIM of Michael, instead of the other way around.

The high amount of benzos negates those theories, though. The benzos, alone, could have killed Michael. And probably did.

 

[Justthefacts]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

No Propofol killed Michael and the benzos were a factor meaning it was the Propofol that did it and the benzos like was written in the reports made it happen a little faster

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Thanks very much for the explanation.

So, Michael was not awake when he supposedly "begged" for propofol, because if he had been, he would have had to relieve himself, right ?
If he had woken up to self inject, then the same thing would have happened, his first reaction would have been to empty his bladder.

But then how come if he had a catheter on, this didn't happen when he was sedated ?

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

mj had high lorazepam levels. usually, the daily max dose in a not intubated patient would be 4mg. the blood levels indicate mj had been given 7-12mg (acc to ruffalo). a ICU patient who was given high lorazepam doses would usually be intubated and catheterized.

meaning Michael should have been monitored for lorazepam only ?

So that's why Murray bought so much flumazenil. He knew there was too much benzos, and was expecting to have to use flumazenil, not only once, but several times. Does that make sense ? :doh:

 

[daisy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Sophie, thank you for your explanation.

meaning Michael should have been monitored for lorazepam only ?

So that's why Murray bought so much flumazenil. He knew there was too much benzos, and was expecting to have to use flumazenil, not only once, but several times. Does that make sense ? :doh:

So Murray was ALSO negligent and careless when administering lorazepam and was endangering his patient's health in this case as well :huh:

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

No Propofol killed Michael and the benzos were a factor meaning it was the Propofol that did it and the benzos like was written in the reports made it happen a little faster

Of COURSE. But the defense is likely to say, that that initial report was WRONG, and that "Murray didn't give him anything that 'should have' killed him." I think either one would have killed him, actually, and that combined, he really had no chance.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Thanks very much for the explanation.

So, Michael was not awake when he supposedly "begged" for propofol, because if he had been, he would have had to relieve himself, right ?
If he had woken up to self inject, then the same thing would have happened, his first reaction would have been to empty his bladder.

But then how come if he had a catheter on, this didn't happen when he was sedated ?

in a previous page I posted the transcript in which Ruffelo testified that 0.162ug/ml indicateed " deep sedation" and I was really shocked why did not he use this FACT to refute Falgans theories instead of repeating " a known addict he should have known better " .

meaning Michael should have been monitored for lorazepam only ?

So that's why Murray bought so much flumazenil. He knew there was too much benzos, and was expecting to have to use flumazenil, not only once, but several times. Does that make sense ? :doh:

that's why the prosecutors should focus on what Murray was doing on the previous nights, instead of focusing on propofol, lorazpam excessive usage need to be explained. I want to know whether he used lorazepam on the days MJ was delivering top performance , sadly I don't believe they bothered to check .

So Murray was ALSO negligent and careless when administering lorazepam and was endangering his patient's health in this case as well :huh:

of course , it is unheard of that versed or intravenous lorazepam are used daily to treat insomnia . the effects would still be present 24 hours after being sedated , so how come MJ was expected to perform and be alert after he was giving 4 + mg of lorazepam

what was the point of using 25 mg of propofol or even 10cc if you are using lorazeapm ?

 

[kasume]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

delete

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Good post.

I think the "Murray only gave 25 mg of propofol" strategy is a defense strategy designed to support the theory, "Murray didn't give him anything that 'should have' killed him." The defense will no doubt try to float the idea that the propofol dose was so low, that Michael didn't need monitoring. Prosecution will argue, that ANY amount of propofol given at home is dangerous, with no additional staff, adequate monitoring, or rescue equipment. Clearly the high amounts of benzos given negates the theory that "Murray didn't give him anything that should have killed him." The amount of benzos, plus the incontinence pad and condom catheter, support the idea that the benzos, alone, could have caused Michael to stop breathing, i.e. deep sedation. (see bolded, above) The presence of the incontinence pad and condom catheter also support the idea that Murray KNEW, very well, that what he was doing would cause deep, and dangerous, sedation.

The "25mg" theory leads to the narrative of Murray saying, "I didn't give him anything that should have killed him," and THAT leads to either the "he drank the propofol" narrative (pretty easily disproven by the autopsy report), or the "he gave himself the fatal dose" narrative. Which paints Murray as a VICTIM of Michael, instead of the other way around.

The high amount of benzos negates those theories, though. The benzos, alone, could have killed Michael. And probably did.

Good points about the bolded. Yes, Murray went missing, and the first day they found him he made that statement which his lawyers continued reiterate. This indicates they are going to suggest that Michael or someone else is to blame. We and the prosecution need to find ways to debunk this. Murray is the only one here accountable.

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Good points about the bolded. Yes, Murray went missing, and the first day they found him he made that statement which his lawyers continued reiterate. This indicates they are going to suggest that Michael or someone else is to blame. We and the prosecution need to find ways to debunk this. Murray is the only one here accountable.

I believe that Murray had his defense in mind from the minute that he found Michael gone.. ...and you are right on point with the bolded part..Murray IS the only one here accountable. I pray the prosecution will be ready for all of the defense mumbo jumbo.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

that's why the prosecutors should focus on what Murray was doing on the previous nights, instead of focusing on propofol, lorazpam excessive usage need to be explained. I want to know whether he used lorazepam on the days MJ was delivering top performance , sadly I don't believe they bothered to check .

Michael didn't die "on the previous nights." He died on June 25, and the ruling was "acute propofol intoxication with benzo effect." Murray isn't on trial for stupidity on previous nights, but for administering medication that killed Michael on June 25. That's why it's been ruled I.M., a category of murder. (It's likely that lorazepam usage WAS excessive, which only makes Murray seem more negligent?)

what was the point of using 25 mg of propofol or even 10cc if you are using lorazeapm ?

There isn't one. It wasn't ruled that Michael died of an overdose of lorazepam, unless the defense is going to attack the validity of the coroner's ruling? (Which is possible. They can use whatever arguments they want, to try to get Murray off the hook.)

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I believe that Murray had his defense in mind from the minute that he found Michael gone.. ...and you are right on point with the bolded part..Murray IS the only one here accountable. I pray the prosecution will be ready for all of the defense mumbo jumbo.

Yep, what I am trying to determine is whether Murray noticed Michael was dead before he began to make the calls, or while he was making the calls. I cannot completely believe in the girlfriend's assumption that she heard something like coughing or mumbling. That is what she determined the sounds to be. It could be the phone rubbing on objects in a pocket, or Murray making noises to stage particular sounds.

Based on the evidence, can anyone theorize if Michael died before or during the call? I know there is a cover-up in this.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Yep, what I am trying to determine is whether Murray noticed Michael was dead before he began to make the calls, or while he was making the calls. I cannot completely believe in the girlfriend's assumption that she heard something like coughing or mumbling. That is what she determined the sounds to be. It could be the phone rubbing on objects in a pocket, or Murray making noises to stage particular sounds.

Based on the evidence, can anyone theorize if Michael died before or during the call? I know there is a cover-up in this.

Right. I can't really believe that, either (bolded). The sounds heard on the phone, if any, could have been anything. . no way to tell/prove.

It's hard to tell if Michael died before or during the calls because T.O.D. cannot be precisely determined. (and, those fireplaces were turned up. Wonder if THAT will be mentioned?)

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

^^It is a pity because it would show more how he covered up his tracks, if we could prove Michael died before the calls. Anyway, we have enough evidence to nail him.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Based on the evidence, can anyone theorize if Michael died before or during the call? I know there is a cover-up in this.

Fleak said that she noticed there was a syringe inserted into the injection port of the IV tube but she did not size it because she was focusing on the pills.that was the first time she went to the house , two hours after MJ was declared dead.

if murray covered anything up before he called Alvarez at least he would have removed that particular syringe which is the one that killed MJ

that syringe had flumazenil, propofol and lidocaine and it's the one that killed mike.

Alvarez testified he saw the propofol vial , fleak found a propofol vial, fleak sized the two syringes that were used that day . so the only conclusion his attempts to cover up started after he called Alvarez.

a bolus injection killed MJ thus Murray was there when it happened , he witnessed everything but he did not have the equipment to revive .

 

[kasume]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

^^It is a pity because it would show more how he covered up his tracks, if we could prove Michael died before the calls. Anyway, we have enough evidence to nail him.

We'll have to wait and see because this case is already tainted....hard to know how everything will be directed by prosecution...

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Fleak said that she noticed there was a syringe inserted into the injection port of the IV tube but she did not size it because she was focusing on the pills.that was the first time she went to the house , two hours after MJ was declared dead.

if murray covered anything up before he called Alvarez at least he would have removed that particular syringe which is the one that killed MJ

that syringe had flumazenil, propofol and lidocaine and it's the one that killed mike.

Alvarez testified he saw the propofol vial , fleak found a propofol vial, fleak sized the two syringes that were used that day . so the only conclusion his attempts to cover up started after he called Alvarez.

a bolus injection killed MJ thus Murray was there when it happened , he witnessed everything but he did not have the equipment to revive .

The bolded, I see what your are saying, but I am not wondering about covering up before the call, but death before the call. Also, do you think that Murray understood the significance of the syringe with flumazenil, propofol and lidocaine that you are talking about? Was he thinking of removing such an item at the time? Remember we are dealing with an incompetent person.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

since I believe MJ's heart must have stopped within one minute of the bolus injection due to the high amounts of lorazepam and the rapid propofol injection , I find it very hard to believe Murray did not immediately notice that he's losing MJ ,

the survival time was really short ,the perimortem abrasions which meant he was moved while dying , the only conclusion Murray moved him , Murray was there and moved him within minute or two maximum. But who can confirm it? Sade's testimony was very helpful in this regards.

the syringe was there inserted ? he NOTICED , he knew something was wrong , and left the syringe there to try and 'help' him .
don't forget MJ's eyes and mouth were wide open , something happened during that call , MJ's life ended during that call.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

The bolded, I see what your are saying, but I am not wondering about covering up before the call, but death before the call. Also, do you think that Murray understood the significance of the syringe with flumazenil, propofol and lidocaine that you are talking about? Was he thinking of removing such an item at the time? Remember we are dealing with an incompetent person.

Flumazenil is a RESCUE drug that counteracts the effects of benzos. It can counteract an overdose of benzos. Surely we are not to believe that Michael loaded the syringe himself, with the flumazenil, in a measured dose, while already groggy with lorazepam? AND also the propofol? And also the "anti-burn" lidocaine? And then he self-injected, even though his DOCTOR was there (was he?) Murray was there but on the phone? And there was a syringe loaded with the antidote (which is what the flumazenil is called), AND something that would knock him out? Michael needed SLEEP, but the flumazenil counteracts the sleep-inducing (unconsciousness inducing) lorazepam. So why DO that? This makes no sense.

@font-face { font-family: "Times"; }@font-face { font-family: "Calibri"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }h2 { margin: 10pt 0in 0.0001pt; page-break-after: avoid; font-size: 13pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; color: rgb(79, 129, 189); font-weight: bold; }a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; }a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { color: purple; text-decoration: underline; }p { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }span.Heading2Char { font-family: Calibri; color: rgb(79, 129, 189); font-weight: bold; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } http://www.drugs.com/mtm/flumazenil.html

What is flumazenil?

Flumazenil reverses the effects of certain types of sedatives from the benzodiazepine (ben-zo-dye-AYZ-e-peen) group of drugs. This includes Valium, Xanax, Tranxene, Librium, ProSom, Dalmane, Ativan, Restoril, Halcion, and others.
Flumazenil is used to reverse the sedative effects of a benzodiazepine when used during surgery or other medical procedure. Flumazenil is also used to treat benzodiazepine overdose.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

So if Murray had that, it demonstrates he knew good and well he was giving MJ way too many sedatives. Why have a reversal drug if you're only giving a little bit. Murray was mixing meds and giving anesthesia, that drug doesn't reverse propofol.

I am assuming Murray, being a doctor and all, should've known that propofol has no reversal agent. Did his murdering ass know that?

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

mj had high lorazepam levels. usually, the daily max dose in a not intubated patient would be 4mg. the blood levels indicate mj had been given 7-12mg (acc to ruffalo). a ICU patient who was given high lorazepam doses would usually be intubated and catheterized.

Thank you Sophie for the info and the link.

According to the link http://gatorgirl277.blogspot.com/2011/03/but-i-have-got-to-pee.html , it's not clear whether the amount the expert said totalled the whole amount of lorazepam given on that day through different dosages. (I remember the defence tried to justify that high amount with Ruffalo resorting to the "need of higher doses so as to be effective due to dependency developed" or sort of that hypothesis).

I am not sure if the amounts quoted above are meant to indicate terminal (last) administrations or cumulative administrations of the medications, either.) However, Murray is lying about the dose and time he last gave lorazepam.

-------------------

the large amount of urine collected also indicates mj had been sedated for a much longer period of time than murray admits. a usual production rate would be 50ml/h, with the fluids murray gave let's assume a higher rate of 100ml/h, if mj died at noon the urine would still have been collected since at least 7am. urge usually sets in at 250-300ml according to what i read, it should have set in at least at 10am, yet murray claims he gave the propofol bolus at shortly before 11am. why didnt mj empty his bladder before murray sedated him?

The first bolded part is very important.

For the second bolded part, the blogger in comments provided this explanation:

gatorgirl277 said...
...this link may provide us with some answers:

http://surgery.about.com/od/questionsanswers/qt/UrinatePee.htm

Perhaps Michael was suffering from a condition dubbed "neurogenic bladder"--the brain is not able to tell the bladder it is time to empty so the patient cannot urinate. A common cause--general anesthsia. Hmm--I guess that would mean Michael had to have been sedated. Nerogenic bladder sounds very reasonable--

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

So if Murray had that, it demonstrates he knew good and well he was giving MJ way too many sedatives. Why have a reversal drug if you're only giving a little bit. Murray was mixing meds and giving anesthesia, that drug doesn't reverse propofol.

I am assuming Murray, being a doctor and all, should've known that propofol has no reversal agent. Did his murdering ass know that?

Right. That is just one of the parts of all of this, that seems chaotic. The goal was for Michael to sleep? The lorazepam induces sleep/unconsciousness. The flumazenil reverses the effects of the lorazepam, i.e. can restore consciousness. Sooo, the goal was for Michael to sleep? But in the syringe were both the antagonist for the lorazepam, AND the propofol? Those could be said to be opposites. To give both drugs at once (lorazepam and propofol) -- both of them dangerous -- would indicate that Murray was entirely panicked, or even did it deliberately? But, for what reason(s)?

My point is (one of them), I don't see how it could be said by the defense that "Michael gave himself the fatal dose" because the syringe contained BOTH the flumazenil and the propofol! And THAT makes no sense, to reverse one sleep-inducing drug while giving another? The "theory" that Michael gave himself the fatal dose assumes that: he was conscious enough to do that -- but they why try to reverse the lorazepam; and, that he knew enough to measure out and fill the syringe with both drugs (leaving out the lidocaine here, because that was only to counteract the burning of the propofol), and then somehow he injected the syringe into the port. And fell back perfectly prone, and not off the bed entirely. And then what? Would the defense say Murray WATCHED him do this? I.e. "witnessed" it? Or, Murray was on the phone, elsewhere, and came back and saw that Michael was not breathing, and then rushed around doing absolutely nothing FOR Michael?

The question is, one of them, WHO loaded that syringe, with both the antagonist for the lorazepam, and ALSO the propofol? That seems counter-productive, to ANYTHING, and certainly not something Michael would do. Pretty sure that MURRAY gave him that shot. And then watched him die? But, when? In and around multiple phone calls? Makes NO sense, for Michael to have given HIMSELF the fatal shot, with BOTH those drugs in it.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

WHO loaded that syringe, with both the antagonist for the lorazepam, and ALSO the propofol?

Murray. He told detectives that he used flumazenil to reverse the effects (the no breathing), he also told them he had administered propofol (though he lied on the amount). So it was Murray. (BTW, Murray must have needed both syringes of 10cc or ml to administer an induction dose for anesthesia, around 150mg; so he would probably have both loaded instead of using only one so as not to interrupt the administration. This is only a possibility.)

Why did he leave the syringe at the scene and didn't try to hide it as he did with the 100mg propofol vial? Because syringes wouldn't attract any attention from the paramedics, while the propofol vial certainly would.
A syringe could be explained to paramedics to give flumazenil or lorazepam (so no need to hide it).
In fact, that syringe in the injection port was only collected by the forensic investigator on her second visit, wherea the other syringe and a vial of propofol on the floor were collected by Elissa Fleak on her first visit.

(One of the paramedics was surprised to see some vials of lidocaine on the floor, which Murray pick them up.)

----------------

The perimortem abrasions could have happened as commented, by Murray movements.

.............

About the amounts needed for the "acute propofol intoxication" stated by the coroner, we will see if the prosecutors witnesses advance more details so as to explain for the missing propofol in the vial Murray tried to hide (not present in bladder once the blood stopped flowing and the production of urine ceased).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

^^It is a pity because it would show more how he covered up his tracks, if we could prove Michael died before the calls. Anyway, we have enough evidence to nail him.

the main info we have is from the medics who said he left between 11.30 and 12.00.tbh i think its pretty much impossible to determine an exact time or as in this case with the testimony by the medics, it was not a case of he left hours b4. there a well known case happ in my area at the mo where a guy is accused of killing his wife. they owned a shop and he claims a robber came in and did it.evidence from court said when the medics got there they thought she had been gone at least 3 hrs.and the corroner said the same or said it could have been abit earlier but he only gave a 2 hour timeframe of when she passed away in his testimony cause they cant be 100% sure. so for mjs case a 2 hour time frame is way to much.its down to minutes really when u are trying to work out whether it was during or b4 the calls etc.and imo thats imposs to prove. if it were a case of mj leaving hours b4 then it would be obvious.so from what we know i disregard some theories we had at the beinging about it happening around 9am and im more inclined to think he was tobusy talking on the phone to notice or as soundmind said if he left within seconds/minutes of the bolus he injected while on the phone or litterally inbetween phonecalls

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

isnt there a hearing today on quashing the subs for the pros witnesses. klien etc?

 

[ivy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

isnt there a hearing today on quashing the subs for the pros witnesses. klien etc?

yes there is

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

isnt there a hearing today on quashing the subs for the pros witnesses. klien etc?

good remembering Elusive...if anyone hears anything..please post it here? thank you.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 22th

yeah please do as im off to work in a min.so will catch up prob tomorrow

 

[ivy]

Michael Jackson trial: Potential jurors to fill out survey

Hundreds of prospective jurors for the trial of Michael Jackson’s physician will fill out a 27-page questionnaire about their knowledge of the case and other issues, the judge said Tuesday.

L.A. County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor has ordered that the questionnaire for Dr. Conrad Murray’s trial be kept confidential, but as many as 350 prospective jurors will get a look at it during the jury selection process that starts Thursday.

Testimony is expected to begin in May, and a prosecutor and a defense lawyer told the judge at a hearing Tuesday that they expect the trial will be completed by the end of June.

Murray stands accused of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson’s 2009 death from an overdose of the surgical anesthetic propofol, which was being used as a sleep aid.

Murray has pleaded not guilty and contends through his attorneys that the pop star gave himself the fatal dose.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...rial-potential-jurors-to-fill-out-survey.html