Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

do you want that to be decided by 12 people? 12 people with different opinions , from all walks of lives , would they all agree on blaming Murray if they felt indeed he was only giving him very small amounts that did not need monitoring , and if indeed they were left to believe he might have only injected him with 25mg that day ?

You can't be sure 12 people will have the same view the coroner has , he stated his opinion and another expert will come to tell them Murray was not neglegent when he did not bring monitoring equipment to monitor the administration of 50 mg of propofol . so what will happen then? why would the prosecutors put themselves in this position ?
well the paitent is dead so he obviously neeeded monitoring and for his dr to not be sat on the phone for hours on end. only a redneck or a hater could come to the conclusion that the dr was not negligent and what he did was totally normal interms of the standard of care a dr should give and it was normal to buy shit loads if diprivan for insomnia and the death was nothing more than an accident.

whatever a jurror may think theres only one person who put mj in a position where his death was caused and thats murray

i know you are playing devils advocate here but the case is obviously not that simple.and every excuse hs has is over rided by the pros case
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

well the paitent is dead so he obviously neeeded monitoring and for his dr to not be sat on the phone for hours on end. only a redneck or a hater could come to the conclusion that the dr was not negligent and what he did was totally normal interms of the standard of care a dr should give and it was normal to buy shit loads if diprivan for insomnia and the death was nothing more than an accident.

whatever a jurror may think theres only one person who put mj in a position where his death was caused and thats murray

i know you are playing devils advocate here but the case is obviously not that simple.and every excuse hs has is over rided by the pros case
I AGREE. :agree:
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

elusive that's where the Anna Nicole smith case comes to mind . we have doctors who prescribed thousands of pills each month to a known addict , you and I and everyone on this board believe they should have been held responsible but an expert came and said they should not be , they were doctors and they acted based on their best judgement , who are you to tell them they were wrong . and look what happened . a doctor prescribing to a known addict , they did not blame the doctor for a much less serious charge .

well the paitent is dead so he obviously neeeded monitoring and for his dr to not be sat on the phone for hours on end
I'm just stating how they will overcome this. Imagine a situation where a doctor is detoxing his addict patient of a drug and the doctor has left to relieve himself for 2 minutes , the addict woke up and injected himself , would you blame the doctor for that ? he was treating him, trying to help him , using his best knowledge as a doctor but the addict chose to do that , can you really blame the doctor ?

That what will happen. Reasonable doubt will be everywhere. It's not what the coroner says , or what an expert says, but how the jurors will piece the puzzles and if they are going to consider Murray leaving MJ to relieve himself a sign of negligent .

He says I gave him 25mg over three minutes , no expert can say that was negligent on his part , the UCLA doctor daid she did not understand why he would even use such a small amount because it would have done absolutely nothing. So if the jurors heard that , and the prosecutors did not prove that was a lie, it will be a point for the defence not the prosecutors.

he says I remained there watching him for almost an hour , and the effect would have worn off within minutes of injection , what expert would say that was negligent ?

He says I had , i was forced to go to relieve myself , and when I came back I found him in distress . I tried my best to save him but did not succeed , who can say he was negligent especially if they by this point believe he might have done it himself .

. only a redneck or a hater could come to the conclusion that the dr was not negligent and what he did was totally normal interms of the standard of care a dr should give and it was normal to buy shit loads if diprivan for insomnia and the death was nothing more than an accident.
They will tell them he was treating him , he was detoxing him from propofol, he was weaning him off propofol if the prosecutors expert comes to tell them yes Jackson was a known addict, jackson was very well beginning and begging to get propofol , how could you guarantee a jury would find him accountable for something MJ might have done ?

if they don't prove the amount he was injecting him with needed monitoring , no one can convince 12 people he was neglegent for leaving to relieve himself .

How many times corners and experts testified to what the prosecutors wanted and the jury returned a not guilty verdict?

Again the amounts he was giving were very little , and if they don't prove he was giving them ALL himself , no jury will find him guilty .

and can you rule out the possibility that a hater will be on that jury ? why anyone would leave the door open for a hater to say I don't consider that negligent and he should be acquitted , we can't be sure he did it, why the doctor should be blamed for what Jackson did ?...etc
but if the prosecutors ruled out the possibility that MJ did it himself , no hater can vote not guilty .

the defence so far were very predictable , they said exactly how they would address everything.

the prosecution's expert was their worst enemy, not only he did not rule out the possibility that MJ did it himself, but he called him a known addict five times.

even the paramedic hesitated and did his best not to call MJ that but here we have an expert who should be the most important expert confirming what the defence have been trying to say since day one.
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I'm just stating how they will overcome this. Imagine a situation where a doctor is detoxing his addict patient of a drug and the doctor has left to relieve himself for 2 minutes , the addict woke up and injected himself , would you blame the doctor for that ? he was treating him, trying to help him , using his best knowledge as a doctor but the addict chose to do that , can you really blame the doctor ?

On this particular point, I would say that no doctor would leave his addict patient alone with the drug he's addicted to. Or "forming an addiction to" as Murray said. Especially if this patient has been "begging" for this particular drug.

I'm not a doctor, but if I was a juror, I would not accept that.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

ok Soundmind lets leave the scenarios alone....you are saying that it will go down as Michael was an addict and that Murray's story s true that he only gave Michael 25mg of propofol. Its not right for you to sit here and try and paint a picture as to what YOU think will happen....Murray is a damn liar and NOT to be believed ..but if you yourself want to believe him then that is your business....but dont mislead the rest of the people here into thinking that is truth.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

lusive that's where the Anna Nicole smith case comes to mind . we have doctors who prescribed thousands of pills each month to a known addict , you and I and everyone on this board believe they should have been held responsible but an expert came and said they should not be
its wasnt to do with an expert it was the actual law that didnt allow the drs to be found guilty of prescribing to an addict. someone cant be called an addict in a legal sense if they are getting stuff for actual ailments. and not just getting /taking stuff to get high.i beleive that is what the judge/law said

How many times corners and experts testified to what the prosecutors wanted and the jury returned a not guilty verdict?
maybe cases that come down to forensics and nothing more. but this is very different
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

ok Soundmind lets leave the scenarios alone....you are saying that it will go down as Michael was an addict and that Murray's story s true that he only gave Michael 25mg of propofol. Its not right for you to sit here and try and paint a picture as to what YOU think will happen....Murray is a damn liar and NOT to be believed ..but if you yourself want to believe him then that is your business....but dont mislead the rest of the people here into thinking that is truth.

I'm trying to say if the prosecutors are as lazy as I believe they are and keep basing their arguments on what Murray said in his statement and don't bother to counter every lie he said in that statement , then don't have high hopes a jury will find him guilty.

This trial is to discredit Murray not to base our argument on what Murray said to convict him

"what he said is enough to convict him "NOOOOO , no jury will convict him based on what he said .

They better prepare their witnesses , particularly their expert, it's not accpetable for an expert to come and confirm basically everything the defence wants him to confim and then say " my opinion he should be held repsosible because jackson was a known addict" you will find a juror who will say " ok , so he was a known addict , thank you , I believe the doctor then and your opinio is your opinion , I have mine"


maybe cases that come down to forensics and nothing more. but this is very different

They made it about forensics , the defence made it about forensics . Again two witnesses from the prosecution side confirmed 25mg would have done nothing, did not even need monitoring , would have worn off within minutes , so if the jurors were told that , and if MJ was blamed for the rest ,and if the prosecutors said yea so what he is still quality ,can you guarantee the jurors will find Murray negligent ?
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

He says I had , i was forced to go to relieve myself , and when I came back I found him in distress . I tried my best to save him but did not succeed

Again , if I was juror , I would wonder if waiting at least 9 mn (probably 20 mn) to call 911 is the best way to help...

Especially if you were supposed to have ressucitation equipment.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I'm trying to say if the prosecutors are as lazy as I believe they are and keep basing their arguments on what Murray said in his statement and don't bother to counter every lie he said in that statement , then don't have high hopes a jury will find him guilty.
well theres no real evidence of that. and it cant be judged on until the trail
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

They made it about forensics , the defence made it about forensics . Again two witnesses from the prosecution side confirmed 25mg would have done nothing, did not even need monitoring , would have worn off within minutes , so if the jurors were told that , and if MJ was blamed for the rest ,and if the prosecutors said yea so what he is still quality ,can you guarantee the jurors will find Murray negligent ?
of course they will find him negligent ANYTIME a patient is given propofol even it it was 5mg..they need to be monitored with equipment....he left his patient..he had NO equipment....that there is already the negligence.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

take into consideration the words " reasonable doubt" why would anyone leave any reasonable doubt if they have the means to completely eliminate any doubt ?

The LAPD and the DA's office proved over and over how stupid they are, how many strong cases trials have been lost because of their incompetence. Look at Fleak , she did not even size the saline bag with the syringe injected into the tube , she admitted she saw it but she did not size it , again what kind of professional people ignore such evidence? the guy was 50 years old , he was not 100 years old . what were they thinking ?

This case a slam dunk case, don't leave the door open for the "addict" argument, don't tell them " yes he was an addict so what you are still guilty" don't do that .

If the defence is scoring point with your own witnesses what will happen when they start to introduce their witnesses?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I was just thinking of other things :

just the whole timing Murray gave (finds him unresponsive at 11 am, but calls for help an hour later).

He was on the phone during most of that hour.

He bought loads of propofol.

He "forgot" to mention propofol to the paramedics and the ER doctors.

What can the defense do about that ? the only explanation for me is that Murray lied.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

REASONABLE DOUBT . eliminate the self-injection scenario , eliminate any doubt and rest your case. don't leave it in the hands of 12 different individuals who one or even more might be haters . Science is science , he could not self inject, then he did not self inject , it's not our opinion against his/her opinion . it's science.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I guess we will just have to wait until the trial...us trying to debate what we think might happen isn't helping anyone...we can only hope that the pros has crossed all of their T's and dotted all of their I's and see what happens.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Was the standard of care met for giving Propofol? That's the question the jury will be asked to answer
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Was the standard of care met for giving Propofol? That's the question the jury will be asked to answer
I love when you pop in hear with your one liners...you make sense...:)
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

do you know what Ruffelo said ? he said Murray did not do enough research on why people abuse propofol when he was asked whether propofol is used to treat insomnia.

A very clear indication he did not even believe MJ wanted it to sleep . go read what he said , what kind of prosecutors call to the stand an expert who have this opinion of the victim ?
this case is about a doctor who took advantage of his insomniac patient and the prosecutors bring an expert who does not even believe the patient asked for it to sleep .

Ruffelo is a nightmare , a disaster believe me . what did he leave to White
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Was the standard of care met for giving Propofol? That's the question the jury will be asked to answer

yep.. also don't forget MJ was not sick. Murray even said MJ had no pre-existing conditions and he was fine and healthy. So the jurors may ask if he was so fine and healthy according to his own doctor why the hell was he treating him for insomnia with loads of sedatives and anesthesia?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

do you know what Ruffelo said ? he said Murray did not do enough research on why people abuse propofol when he was asked whether propofol is used to treat insomnia.

A very clear indication he did not even believe MJ wanted it to sleep . go read what he said , what kind of prosecutors call to the stand an expert who have this opinion of the victim ?
this case is about a doctor who took advantage of his insomniac patient and the prosecutors bring an expert who does not even believe the patient asked for it to sleep .

Ruffelo is a nightmare , a disaster believe me . what did he leave to White

I agree Ruffalo has no business testifying during this trial
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Why are you acting like that guy is going to be used at trial? They will call the person who gave their view in the coroner's report not a guy who had not read the reports come on
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

yep.. also don't forget MJ was not sick. Murray even said MJ had no pre-existing conditions and he was fine and healthy. So the jurors may ask if he was so fine and healthy according to his own doctor why the hell was he treating him for insomnia with loads of sedatives and anesthesia?
what does that have to do with Murray meeting the standard of care for Michael?....his health had nothing to do with Murray's negligence.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Was the standard of care met for giving Propofol? That's the question the jury will be asked to answer

thank you.

Why are you acting like that guy is going to be used at trial? They will call the person who gave their view in the coroner's report not a guy who had not read the reports come on
exactly
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I even don't know why there is a trial. Murray confessed to the police that HE HAD INJECTED THE PROPOFOL.

Autopsy, cause of the death : cardiac arrest caused by overdose propofol.

They will save money with me the California state.

 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

what does that have to do with Murray meeting the standard of care for Michael?....his health had nothing to do with Murray's negligence.

yes it does..It makes him even more guilty. Mike didn't need care. He wasn't sick.. Why would a doctor give a healthy man, anesthesia? Anesthesia should be used in surgical settings in a hospital. Mike wasn't having surgery, so it proves Murray was using surgical medications on a healthy man who didn't need it
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Why are you acting like that guy is going to be used at trial? They will call the person who gave their view in the coroner's report not a guy who had not read the reports come on

They better not put that fool on the stand
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

yes it does..It makes him even more guilty. Mike didn't need care. He wasn't sick.. Why would a doctor give a healthy man, anesthesia? Anesthesia should be used in surgical settings in a hospital. Mike wasn't having surgery, so it proves Murray was using surgical medications on a healthy man who didn't need it
I understand what you are saying...and yes Michael was healthy..but when it comes down to the standard of care that Murray failed to meet.. dont think Michael's health makes much of a difference. The fact is Murray gave propofol out of a hospital setting with no monitoring equipment.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

Why are you acting like that guy is going to be used at trial? They will call the person who gave their view in the coroner's report not a guy who had not read the reports come on

he read everything, he wrote a 47 pages detailing his findings, but never ever he paid any attention to the gastric contents .

the expert mentioned in the autopsy report , did not write anything beside the two pages included in the autopsy report that we all saw, that what the prosecutors told the judge. She will be asked to testify , but if true what was said , then who did the examination of the hair samples ? sure not Calems . Ruffelo?

I always believed they will use her ,Dr.Calmes but they sent everything to Ruffelo and we heard Ruffelo . why you think I'm upset ?

the prosecution's expert does not even portray MJ as a victim , what did he leave to White and Haszti ?
his negligent will become DEBATABLE when all parties agree he might have only used 25mg or 50 mg , one expert will say he did not meet the standards to give propofol another expert will refute that ..based solely on the 25mg (50mg) dose. Once you say " so what if he only gave 25mg , he is still guilty" you open automatically a can of warms, that's exactly what they want the jurors to hear.

the prosecutors told the judge they were talking to two new experts , I pray PRAY one of them is a replacement to Ruffelo.

Ruffelo seems like Drew Pinsky , a nightmare , a disaster , no shred of sympathy toward the victim.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

i sit here reading this thread thinking to myself what has any of this got to do with the actual charges murray is facing? hes not charged with pulling the trigger so to speak. the corner already stated he would call it homicide even if mj drank injected..... it. so what is murrays defence to the charge he is actually facing. by accusing mj of drinking etc hes actually incriminating himself on the charges hes facing. hes admitting he wasnt in the room.hes charged with causing mjs death becasue of negligence. for giving dip for insomnia in a non hospital setting for not having monitoring equipment and resus equip there if anything went wrong and for not monitoring him the correct fashion in the first place. what is HIS defence to those charges? mj drank/injected it is not a defence. he went below the standard of care a dr should give his paitent and his paitent died because of it.that is the charges

but the defence will try to do anything to divert from the actual case. we have heard every defence argument going from the defence but yet we havnt heard a defence for the actual charges hes facing in a court of law. because there is no defence for what he did or didnt do so its about diverting from the facts of the case to confuse ppl.

Excellent post to bring us back to main issues!!!!
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

he read everything, he wrote a 47 pages detailing his findings, but never ever he paid any attention to the gastric contents .

the expert mentioned in the autopsy report , did not write anything beside the two pages included in the autopsy report that we all saw, that what the prosecutors told the judge. She will be asked to testify , but if true what was said , then who did the examination of the hair samples ? sure not Calems . Ruffelo?

I always believed they will use her ,Dr.Calmes but they sent everything to Ruffelo and we heard Ruffelo . why you think I'm upset ?

the prosecution's expert does not even portray MJ as a victim , what did he leave to White and Haszti ?
his negligent will become DEBATABLE when all parties agree he might have only used 25mg or 50 mg , one expert will say he did not meet the standards to give propofol another expert will refute that ..based solely on the 25mg (50mg) dose. Once you say " so what if he only gave 25mg , he is still guilty" you open automatically a can of warms, that's exactly what they want the jurors to hear.

the prosecutors told the judge they were talking to two new experts , I pray PRAY one of them is a replacement to Ruffelo.

Ruffelo seems like Drew Pinsky , a nightmare , a disaster , no shred of sympathy toward the victim.


And he also said he did not want to see the numbers or what the woman said because he did not want them to color his opinion. That is what he was offering his opinion. The lady who wrote the report did not testify because the did not want to show there hand so this guy was bought in and BTW he fucked up. You won't see him again
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 16th

I have a question for those in the medical field :

One of the things KZ wrote on Trial and tribulations, is that she was surprised at the use of a condom catheter. My understanding of what she said, is that Murray was anticipating a prolonged "deep" sedation.

what do you think of that ? Would it be necessary if Michael was kept asleep with lorazepam or the condom catheter would suggest sedation with an aneasthetic ?
 
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