Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

[Alma]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Guys, please lets not go into the hair toxicology. We have no evidence of it yet and lets refrain from giving more negative input for people to run with. We have enough problems telling people to refrain from calling Michael an addict without evidence. Why now bring up a toxicology report, that so far is undisclosed? We can think up new analyses or assumptions, but lets be careful about what we write. Remember in the other thread we were always cautioned that this is a public board. Let us base our assumptions on what we already know.

Agrees. ..

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

they can say that all they like but its irrelvent to the charges. hes on trial cause he gave it outside of a hospital setting for insomnia with no monitoring equipment and not watching mj.doesnt matter what amount he gave mj the fact is mjs not here cause of murrays lack of monitoring/equipment and for giving it for insomnia in the first place.thats the core of the negligence charge

true.

yeah they havnt been released i presume soundmind is just presuming this is where the whole demoral thing comes from ontop of ppl like chopra running to the media talking about it. to make a claim about demoral they must have some sort of evidence mj took it.(that certainly doesnt make it an addiction but of course they will run with anything) then again who knows with this case

First, mj was visiting Klien for months we believe he was being treated for dermatology and cosmetic stuff, demerol and similar stuff are used in such procedures so why some are shocked by my assumption.

second Klien (I know he is a liar) filed a creditor claim asking to be paid for 51 injections among other things. It would be really stupid to believe the defence won't put Klien on the stand to ask him about that particular creditor claim. And even if we assume
he would incriminate himself and testify the creditor claim he filed was full of lies (wishful thinking) the defence will still waive that creditor claim in the jurors face screaming :"we told you so" , the same way they claim MJ was addicted to propofol regardless of no evidence to support that
Based on the above I assumed the toxicology report could show demerol at some point and that's where they are coming from .

i thought about this whole demo case. if murray claims mj reacted bad casue he was in withdrawl how come nothing happened over the prior 6 weeks. murray claimed he was giving it every night. yet why only on the 25th did mj react. the reaction would occur every night if he had been using demoral. if u are in withdrawl it means no or very small amounts in the system. so when u are using it full blown then the reaction will be even worse. as normal it makes no sense. heck why am i even trying to pick this crap apart!

demerol had nothing to do with MJ's death, it was not found anywhere in his system , not even in his house. They won't say Demerol caused MJ's death , that's not what Falagn said , he said their expert would say MJ was addicted to demerol and Murray did not cause his death . "addicted to demerol " is their strategy blaming
Klien for everything before June 25 and MJ will be blamed for what happened on June 25th and Saint Murray did no wrong so clear him dear jurors.

the prosecution introduced evidence of Murray's negligence and arrogance behaviour in the days preceding 25th of June. Ortega testified to one particular incident
. The defence have to counter every piece of the prosecution theory to raise reasonable doubt. " it was Klien's treatment that caused it all , Murray did not know what he was getting himself into, Jackson was asked not to go to Klien's office, he did . He was out of control, Murray did not want to give him propofol but he insisted , he injected himself while Murray was in the bathroom...etc" that's their theory , that's what they have been pushing and if MJ received even one shot of demerol in the months leading to his death, they will twist it and claim " he was addicting to demerol, once an addict always an addict"

Guys, please lets not go into the hair toxicology. We have no evidence of it yet and lets refrain from giving more negative input for people to run with. We have enough problems telling people to refrain from calling Michael an addict without evidence. Why now bring up a toxicology report, that so far is undisclosed? We can think up new analyses or assumptions, but lets be careful about what we write. Remember in the other thread we were always cautioned that this is a public board. Let us base our assumptions on what we already know

.

That exactly why I did, I based my assumption on what I already know , MJ was visiting Klien for months and Klien claimed he injected MJ with 51 injections between March and June whether that was a lie or not the defence will bring it up, they for God's sake tried to say the NOI did it .
As for the hair toxicology, yes it was not published but again if we believe he was there for cosmetic procedures or dermatology issues and we know those procedures are painful , then what was he was using to erase the pain?????? NOTHING ???????!!!! so if I got a botox injection and my doctor injected me with demerol to erase the pain , I'll be called a demerol addict!!!!!! Is that what you are afraid of? !!!

every freaking thing MJ took in the months before his death regardless of the amount will be analyzed and the defence will try to blame everyone but Murray for what happened not only on that day but in the months preceding the death.
This attitude that we should not discuss this and we should not discuss that does not help at all. When people brought up the 'addict' stories we discussed it thoroughly for months and months , eventually after the autopsy report was released this board took the decision to warn those who Kept calling
MJ an addict.
. Now if I say what if they are going to use Klien's treatment to clear Murray , you come to say don't do that it will help the defence. It was the defence who brought it up and I'm trying to understand what could they twist and use to push that story in the media and in that courtroom.

You want to believe it is completely baseless , so be it, but for the reasons above I believe that's what they are going to do. You are entitled to your opinion so do I. I have the right to be realistic and take those visits into account when I'm forming an opinion of the defence strategy

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I can't imagine that Klein would in any way "clear Murray," unless he was actually in the house that night? And nobody is saying that he was, soooooo? We know from the autopsy report what was in Michael's system, and I can't see what he may or may not have taken in the preceding months is relevant, at all?

I repeat, the hair-tox report has never been published. Klein has never said what treatments/procedures Michael was getting at his office, and what medications were given. Maybe he'll be called to testify, and maybe he won't. He wasn't THERE when Michael died. . . .

It's become pretty clear now that the defense is going to try to blame Michael's death. . on Michael. Along those lines, they MAY try to paint Michael as "the a-word," to show a behavior consistent with taking the fatal dose HIMSELF when Murray was out of the room. If that's the only defense they have, it's WEAK. Murray was the last doctor standing, and that still doesn't in any way explain why Murray delayed calling 911, why Michael had been gone for probably HOURS before 911 was called, and why Murray spent so much time on the PHONE (as the phone records clearly indicate), and why he tried to clean up "evidence," or why a cardiologist would be ignorant of the proper way to do CPR? Those are all actions of someone with a guilty conscience. Personally, I can't imagine what Klein would have to do with any of those actions, by Murray?

 

[ivy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Klein has never said what treatments/procedures Michael was getting at his office, and what medications were given.

I believe he did say what his treatments was with his creditor's claim (documents below)

botox under eye , botox eyes , I.M. injection , fine line needle, restylane , latanoprost, acne surgery, botox forehead ,latisse , intralesnl , sunscreen

TMZ was the one that said IM Injection was actually generally used name for "Demerol" injections and there was 51 injections in the last 3 months.

This could be why they are going with Blame Klein and Demerol route.

For what it's worth Klein said that he gave pain killers before botox injections etc and that even the total of what he gave was combined and given together wouldn't kill anybody.

ps: also the day after MJ's death before information about Murray and propofol became available a lot of media was quoting a family source (oxman?) and saying that Michael died due to demerol injection.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/1027_klein_jackson_wm.pdf

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I see where Soundmind is going with this line of reasoning. Since we won't know until the trial starts what the defense will say, I think it has as much merit as any other theory. We should be open to explore whatever possibilities are out there as long as they have some basis in the real world.

The defence have to counter every piece of the prosecution theory to raise reasonable doubt. "

Of course. They will use whatever they can to do so. Cause what is their goal? To get murray off.

And if there are real concerns about giving aid and comfort to the enemy, ie., the defense, by what we discuss here then let's restrict access.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I believe he did say what his treatments was with his creditor's claim (documents below)

botox under eye , botox eyes , I.M. injection , fine line needle, restylane , latanoprost, acne surgery, botox forehead ,latisse , intralesnl , sunscreen

TMZ was the one that said IM Injection was actually generally used name for "Demerol" injections and there was 51 injections in the last 3 months.

This could be why they are going with Blame Klein and Demerol route.

For what it's worth Klein said that he gave pain killers before botox injections etc and that even the total of what he gave was combined and given together wouldn't kill anybody.

ps: also the day after MJ's death before information about Murray and propofol became available a lot of media was quoting a family source (oxman?) and saying that Michael died due to demerol injection.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/1027_klein_jackson_wm.pdf

Thanks for info. I do remember those early reports that Michael died "due to a demerol injection."

Has the last date on which Michael went to Klein's office been reported? Demerol doesn't last very long in the system, does it?

As far as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" by posts here? Common sense will probably work just fine, as long as we don't state speculations as facts? And citing sources is always a good idea?

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I believe he did say what his treatments was with his creditor's claim (documents below)

botox under eye , botox eyes , I.M. injection , fine line needle, restylane , latanoprost, acne surgery, botox forehead ,latisse , intralesnl , sunscreen

TMZ was the one that said IM Injection was actually generally used name for "Demerol" injections and there was 51 injections in the last 3 months.

This could be why they are going with Blame Klein and Demerol route.

For what it's worth Klein said that he gave pain killers before botox injections etc and that even the total of what he gave was combined and given together wouldn't kill anybody.

ps: also the day after MJ's death before information about Murray and propofol became available a lot of media was quoting a family source (oxman?) and saying that Michael died due to demerol injection.

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/...jackson_wm.pdf

Thank you. You are a great help as usual.

We should be open to explore whatever possibilities are out there as long as they have some basis in the real world.

exactly. one can be very optimistic ( maybe a better word should be very unrealistic ) and believe MJ preferred to suffer from crucial pain during those facial procedures and refused to take any chemicals thus the hair toxicology would not show anything .but please leave some door open to the possibility that like every other normal human being out there MJ needed some sort of pain reliever when he got those treatments thus a pain reliever could end up on those hair results. We are not helping the defence, we are just trying to figure out what are they twisting now to push their agenda.

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Soundmind I get what you are saying, and I don't feel there's any problem talking about that. Some media have already done that, and the defense might be going that way , so why should we avoid the subject ?

I am 100% sure that Michael did not cause his own death, and I believe that he was led to believe that he was safe, by Murray and maybe others.

I don't understand how this theory (blame Klein/ blame Michael ) could help Murray ??

As Elusive said, the problem is not the dose of propofol, it is the way it was given. To me that's what the autopsy report says, and that's what the prosecution said. Basically they said Murray was negligent and a liar.

If the defense goes for the drug addict theory, then how does Murray explain the high amouts of lorazepam and flumazenil he bought ?? I'm no medical expert, but I would like an explanation about that, it shows that something was going on, at least in Murray's head.

If what they are going to say is that Michael self injected/drank the propofol, then why in the first place was he even able to do that ???
He should NOT have been left alone with a drug Murray felt "he was forming an addiction to" according to what he said, and anyway, he should not have been left alone while he was under. There was no need for an anesthesia, Murray could have waited a few minutes for Michael to wake up and go to the bathroom.

Murray said "he felt Michael was forming an addition to propofol" : why did he leave him alone with propofol (self injection theory) , AND the pills that were found on the night stand ?? Negligence again, or he did not believe in addiction himself ??

Again, if they say he drank / self injected the propofol : to me , as I said earlier, the dose is not the problem, it's the lack of monitoring and ressucitation equipment that was the problem.

That's what is very sad about all this : the prosecution doesn't need to show that the defense allegations are not true, they just need to use them against Murray.

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Unless all of this is just a setup to put the blame on Michael for some reason which we can't even guess...Bring in all the benzos to create the appearance Michael had an addiction, let the media do the rest. Who benefits if ugh hate to even say it, the defense is successful and murray walks? Besides murray, that is.
Or should I put this in the conspiracy section?
But no, it still doesn't begin to explain why he was on the phone and not watching his patient. It always comes back to that.
You know that expression: It's time to think outside of the box. Well, I haven't been able to even see out of the box!

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

The prosecution has the hair tox results, and several other doctors (certainly including Klein) have been investigated, and no charges were filed.
I guess they don't think Klein's treatment was related to Michael's death.

Edit : and the coroner said Michael was in "excellent health", to me it means he excluded any other "remote" cause of death, and he also has the hair tox results.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I think what's likely to happen is for the defense to go for "reasonable doubt" on the part of the jury, they will throw all kinds of theories against the wall and see if any of them stick? As in, "it could have been this, or this, or this?"

There are some things the defense just won't be able to explain away, though. That Michael was clearly gone for maybe HOURS before 911 was called. That Murray was on the PHONE for a good bit of the time Michael was dying or dead. That Murray tried to hide evidence. And, that he was ineffective at doing CPR. (for that one, no amount of "positive PR" of "patients helped" will possibly explain away the one-handed CPR, on a BED.) Giving propofol at HOME with no rescue equipment, and the patient DIED, in and of itself is Involuntary Manslaughter. Isn't it? And, I'd assume that the security tapes will not show anyone sneaking into the house in the middle of the night, or morning. So that leaves Murray, and Michael. And only THEM.

The allegation that "Michael drank the propofol" can, I'd assume, be debunked in that no propofol was found in Michael's MOUTH, and the small amount in his stomach can be explained. Did he "self-inject?" I doubt it, and even if he did, where WAS Murray shortly thereafter, and why did he not attempt to revive him in anything approaching a timely way? Michael was long gone, by the time EMTs arrived. . .

Only Murray knows what really happened. And he may not even testify. . . .

 

[ivy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Thanks for info. I do remember those early reports that Michael died "due to a demerol injection."

Has the last date on which Michael went to Klein's office been reported? Demerol doesn't last very long in the system, does it?

according to creditor claims June 22. 1 Injection.

According to all reports/ witness statements etc Michael last saw Klein 3-4 days before his death.

Google search says that Demerol has a half life of 2.5 to 4 hours and will be out of the system in 10-20 hours completely. It also says a drug test can detect it till 30-60 hours.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to creditor claims June 22. 1 Injection.

According to all reports/ witness statements etc Michael last saw Klein 3-4 days before his death.

Google search says that Demerol has a half life of 2.5 to 4 hours and will be out of the system in 10-20 hours completely. It also says a drug test can detect it till 30-60 hours.

Thanks. That's what I thought. Plus, no Demerol was discovered at his house. And any traces must have been gone by the time of the autopsy, because none was found in Michael's system. Really not sure how Klein would help the defense in any significant way, and NO ONE is saying he was at the house on June 25. It was . . . only Murray. So I'm going with the idea that the defense will throw in all kinds of stuff, relevant or not, just to baffle the jury.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to creditor claims June 22. 1 Injection.

According to all reports/ witness statements etc Michael last saw Klein 3-4 days before his death.

yeah it was monday the 22nd his last visit. it wasnt reported at the time but fans saw him there and mentioned it after june 25th

So I'm going with the idea that the defense will throw in all kinds of stuff, relevant or not, just to baffle the jury.

yeah thats exactly what they will do.throw enough mud and some of it will stick. its all about making murray out to be the victim caught up in mjs big bad world but as many keep saying there are somethings he can not defend and those things are what the charges about. ie monitoring equipment phonecalls etc etc. his only chance is to try and make the jury forget about those things and have the jury thinking well mj asked for it mentality

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

If the prosecution stick to the facts Murray won't be able to bring up irrelevant stuff. There is no way Murray can defend giving someone anesthesia as a sleep aid in a home bedroom with no monitoring equipment. He still can't defend telling everyone MJ was healthy and now suddenly saying he was frail and in bad health. Remember Murray told Lloyd's of London on the phone that MJ was fine and healthy while MJ was either dead or dying. Murray told Ortega that MJ was fine and to mind his own business. Murray was on the phone talking to many people while his patient was in a comatose state. Murray tried to hide evidence.The EMTs saw him, the bodyguards saw him etc.. Murray did not tell a cardiologist and a ER doctor in the emergency room what he gave MJ. He only mentioned lorazapem. He knew what killed MJ because he gave it to him. If he thought giving MJ propofol was alright and ok why didn't he tell those ER doctors what he gave him? Murray is guilty as hell and he knows it. Those facts he can not change at all.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

well considering the defence were refusing to hand over their info one of the aims was to probably restrict the pros from filing motions to stop the defence using irrelvent or prejudicial material

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

well considering the defence were refusing to hand over their info one of the aims was to probably restrict the pros from filing motions to stop the defence using irrelvent or prejudicial material

exactly...the defense didn't want to give them any options.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

If the prosecution stick to the facts Murray won't be able to bring up irrelevant stuff.

I wish you are right. However, the defence till now has brought up ANY irrelevant and CONTRADICTORY conjectures in their calculated hope that by creating many different lines for excusing Murray, maybe one of them could take the prosecutors by surprise... (typo error in exhibit 68 helped them to leave without a clear NO from DA to one of those defense speculations in the preliminary).

I do hope in the trial prosecutors won't be taken by surprise. The preliminary gave them some clues about the defense they did not have before.

Reading the last statement made by David Walgren in the prelim I came across something that gave me some hope. When talking about the contradiction in Murray's statement to the police and his timeline given, he said:
"... he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing.
Or he could be lying about his time line (...).
Third option is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when.
Tragically, it led to the death of MJ based on the theory of involuntary manslaughter".

I wonder if by the use of the word "theory" he was implying facts could have been murder (though more difficult to prove).

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

true.



As for the hair toxicology, yes it was not published but again if we believe he was there for cosmetic procedures or dermatology issues and we know those procedures are painful , then what was he was using to erase the pain?????? NOTHING ???????!!!! so if I got a botox injection and my doctor injected me with demerol to erase the pain , I'll be called a demerol addict!!!!!! Is that what you are afraid of? !!!

As I said before, you are highly intelligent and I love reading your posts. I understand your point, but please be mindful of your comments. No one is afraid, but rather ask that you exercise caution when posting your theories, and I know that you know exactly what is meant here.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I wish you are right. However, the defence till now has brought up ANY irrelevant and CONTRADICTORY conjectures in their calculated hope that by creating many different lines for excusing Murray, maybe one of them could take the prosecutors by surprise... (typo error in exhibit 68 helped them to leave without a clear NO from DA to one of those defense speculations in the preliminary).

I do hope in the trial prosecutors won't be taken by surprise. The preliminary gave them some clues about the defense they did not have before.

Reading the last statement made by David Walgren in the prelim I came across something that gave me some hope. When talking about the contradiction in Murray's statement to the police and his timeline given, he said:
"... he let MJ lie there for over an hour not breathing.
Or he could be lying about his time line (...).
Third option is that Dr. Murray is so utterly so incompetent and reckless, that he has no idea what he gave him or when.
Tragically, it led to the death of MJ based on the theory of involuntary manslaughter".

I wonder if by the use of the word "theory" he was implying facts could have been murder (though more difficult to prove).

the thing is the pros can file motions to stop any irrelvent or prejudical evidence being used against mj. but if the defence refuse to hand over statement etc the pros cant do that as they dont know what they are facing.this is one of the reasons imo why the defence are playing games. alot will come down to the judge and his directions to the jury. it needs to be stated that this is all down to what happened and the negligence and nothing else.

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

the thing is the pros can file motions to stop any irrelvent or prejudical evidence being used against mj. but if the defence refuse to hand over statement etc the pros cant do that as they dont know what they are facing.this is one of the reasons imo why the defence are playing games. alot will come down to the judge and his directions to the jury. it needs to be stated that this is all down to what happened and the negligence and nothing else.

Yes, but the defense will go on "playing games" in all different directions to distract attention from Murray, not only with the evidence to present in the trial (which if irrelevant could be refused), but also with their conjectures, as they already did in the preliminary in their cross-examination.
That's what worries me though I hope this time prosecutors will be more alert since they know the cards the defense will be playing.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

as many keep saying there are somethings he can not defend and those things are what the charges about. ie monitoring equipment phonecalls etc etc. his only chance is to try and make the jury forget about those things and have the jury thinking well mj asked for it mentality

Falagan asked either the expert or the coroner about something called conscious sedation. It was a term we talked about here more than a year ago before the autopsy report was published to be exact.

Less than 1% of people need intubation under conscious sedation. If indeed propofol was used in a very limited way like in that last day and if indeed the theory that propofol was only used to induce sleep and then immediately before MJ woke up while other sedatives were used to maintain sleep then Chernoff will for sure argue conscious sedation did not need any monitoring and did not need intubation and any expert will agree with him.

If the monitoring part become questionable to the jurors and they are told what about " he left a known addict with propofol he should have known better , a propofol addict is like a heroin addict...etc" like the stupid expert the prosecution put on the stand kept repeating then good luck for the prosecutors , if you followed the Anna nicole smith case you would have come to the conclusion that if the jury believed MJ could have done it himself Murray will for sure walk .

I still believe regardless of what the description of the charge say, if indeed only two shots of propofol were used regularly , and the possibility that MJ did it is not excluded medically, the jury will never agree to convict Murray.

It will eventually come back to whether he gave him the last shot or not

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Falagan asked either the expert or the coroner about something called conscious sedation. It was a term we talked about here more than a year ago before the autopsy report was published to be exact.

Less than 1% of people need intubation under conscious sedation. If indeed propofol was used in a very limited way like in that last day and if indeed the theory that propofol was only used to induce sleep and then immediately before MJ woke up while other sedatives were used to maintain sleep then Chernoff will for sure argue conscious sedation did not need any monitoring and did not need intubation and any expert will agree with him.

If the monitoring part become questionable to the jurors and they are told what about " he left a known addict with propofol he should have known better , a propofol addict is like a heroin addict...etc" like the stupid expert the prosecution put on the stand kept repeating then good luck for the prosecutors , if you followed the Anna nicole smith case you would have come to the conclusion that if the jury believed MJ could have done it himself Murray will for sure walk .

I still believe regardless of what the description of the charge say, if indeed only two shots of propofol were used regularly , and the possibility that MJ did it is not excluded medically, the jury will never agree to convict Murray.

It will eventually come back to whether he gave him the last shot or not

OK, but what about mixing lorazepam and propofol ?? the autopsy report said you should never mix them.

if I remember correctly, Murray told the LAPD he was using a drip and an IV pole and an empty propofol bottle were found . He didn't have the equipment for that particular way of administering propofol.

What about the huge amounts of propofol that Murray bought ?

and I think the anesthesis report (in the AR report) said that you still need monitoring and ressucitation equipment whatever the level of sedation you want to reach, she did say that you need more precaution for a general anesthesia. But I don't recall she said you can stop monitoring at all. One of the reasons was that it is very easy to make a "mistake" in the dose, and "accidentally" reach a higher sedation than intended.

Could you explain what concious sedation is please ?? Because if the goal was to make MJ sleep, then how could it be that "concious sedation" was what Murray was trying to do ?

I'm aware that we do not know everything about the case, but I'm optimistic about the outcome, with what we know so far.

I didn't follow Anna Nicole Smith case (I wanted to ), but I think that was very different : her death was not ruled a homicide, it was clear from the beginning she did that to herself. The doctors and Stern were charged for conspiring to fuel her addiction (prescribing to an addict/ illegal prescribing, etc ....), which is very difficult to prove.

Here the charges against Murray are about negligence.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Yes, but the defense will go on "playing games" in all different directions to distract attention from Murray, not only with the evidence to present in the trial (which if irrelevant could be refused), but also with their conjectures, as they already did in the preliminary in their cross-examination.
That's what worries me though I hope this time prosecutors will be more alert since they know the cards the defense will be playing.

dont know if its the same thing. but hearsay is allowed in the prelim. the defence asking if this is the actions of a druggie. ie wearing a shower cap and backhanded comments may come under that? .but hearsay isnt allowed during the trial.questions like that from the preli, would be objected to cause its speculation and many other things at an actual trial. the rules are different so i expect the pros to at least object

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

It will eventually come back to whether he gave him the last shot or not

I still believe regardless of what the description of the charge say, if indeed only two shots of propofol were used regularly , and the possibility that MJ did it is not excluded medically, the jury will never agree to convict Murray.

imo it will come down the judge instructions to the jury. ie it is irrelvent who gave the last shot (like the corroner said) if the judge says that or if he says. u can think mj asked for it and was addicted but you are not judging the case on that. you are judging whether it was criminally negligent for a dr to give a paitent diprivan for insomnia out of a hospital setting with no equipment and if you feel his actions of being on the phone etc were far below the standards that would be expected.and if it those actions that you believed caused the death then you convict. the question is if something went wrong. would mj still be here if the dr had equipment monitered his paitent properly and at the first sign of a problem dialed 911. we all know the probable answer to that. this case is not difficult its very basic

whether it was conscious sedation or not is irrelvent imo because this case is about whether the actions of giving it for insomnia without him monitoring mj properly (put aside the equipment if u want) and his lack of dialing 911 is negligent enough that if he hadnt done any of those things mj would still be here. you can talk about conscious sedation all u like but that doesnt even get them over the first hurdle of why he was giving it for insomnia in the first place. add ontop the overdose of loraz that murray gave mj aswell.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

OK, but what about mixing lorazepam and propofol ?? the autopsy report said you should never mix them.

if I remember correctly, Murray told the LAPD he was using a drip and an IV pole and an empty propofol bottle were found . He didn't have the equipment for that particular way of administering propofol.

What about the huge amounts of propofol that Murray bought ?

and I think the anesthesis report (in the AR report) said that you still need monitoring and ressucitation equipment whatever the level of sedation you want to reach, she did say that you need more precaution for a general anesthesia. But I don't recall she said you can stop monitoring at all. One of the reasons was that it is very easy to make a "mistake" in the dose, and "accidentally" reach a higher sedation than intended.

Could you explain what concious sedation is please ?? Because if the goal was to make MJ sleep, then how could it be that "concious sedation" was what Murray was trying to do ?

I'm aware that we do not know everything about the case, but I'm optimistic about the outcome, with what we know so far.

I didn't follow Anna Nicole Smith case (I wanted to ), but I think that was very different : her death was not ruled a homicide, it was clear from the beginning she did that to herself. The doctors and Stern were charged for conspiring to fuel her addiction (prescribing to an addict/ illegal prescribing, etc ....), which is very difficult to prove.

Here the charges against Murray are about negligence.

yeah well said. this case is very simply. but some reason we are trying to make it hard.

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

but some reason we are trying to make it hard.

or worrying about what the defence might come up with..

We might as well be prepared for a "creative" defense, and talking about it before it actually happens is good, IMO.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

yeah i suppose. just sometimes i think we go to far. ppl are watching. and we dont need to give anyone ideas. theres things i could say but u dont cause you dont know whos watching and i certainly dont want to help then directly or indirectly

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

yeah i suppose. just sometimes i think we go to far. ppl are watching. and we dont need to give anyone ideas. theres things i could say but u dont cause you dont know whos watching and i certainly dont want to help then directly or indirectly

Yes , I understand... but I don't really feel that way. Both the prosecution and the defense know more than we do : they have the full autopsy report, they have the LAPD interviews..

The idea Soundmind was talking about, the defense had already said that, Soundmind was just explaining it with more details.

And if we give ideas to the defense, we might also give ideas to the prosecution...

 

[smoothlugar]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

What about the huge amounts of propofol that Murray bought ?

and I think the anesthesis report (in the AR report) said that you still need monitoring and ressucitation equipment whatever the level of sedation you want to reach

Exactly.

Some monitoring is always required and the moderate sedation is very short-lasting and has to be kept (similar techniques to those described in the Anesthesiology Consultation, in AR).

The only reason why "conscious sedation" was commented on boards was as a possible explanation for Murray's falsely allegued dose of propofol to the police in terms of matching requirements: no intubation, fewer risks, pulseoximeter and oxigen needed.
Murray must have thought of carefully about all this during those two days before his statement to the LAPD.
But, there were the big amounts of vials bought by Murray, many of 100ml and again, monitoring was needed and a way to keep the sedation by keeping dosages, AND MURRAY WAS TOO BUSY ON THE PHONE... (this was the first info that struck me when it was officially revealed).

Another annoying known fact was his hiding the evidence. Murray's first aim was to hide the bottle of propofol which was in the IV bag into another plastic bag with the help of the first bodyguard who came. This as David Walgren said, showed his GUILT. (If he had really used what he had declared, he would have acted in another way).

dont know if its the same thing. but hearsay is allowed in the prelim. the defence asking if this is the actions of a druggie. ie wearing a shower cap and backhanded comments may come under that? .but hearsay isnt allowed during the trial.questions like that from the preli, would be objected to cause its speculation and many other things at an actual trial. the rules are different so i expect the pros to at least object

Yes, a lawyer told me that too, that in the real trial the judge won't tollerate so much speculation and calling names.
But, sorry if I am a bit distrustful, but unfortunately there is still so much bias against Michael that it's not always easy to be hopeful.
...............
PS: I read in Trials &Tribulations some comments made by an anesthetist nurse who asked if DA had examined how many punctures were made in the toppers of the empty vials, considering that the syringes were of 10cc. (It's in part 4 of the medical explanation of KZ).