Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

that's what the judge said, both sides will soon file relevance motions , so we shall see.

ok , any guess on who is this witness?

Who could this person be? Does Lee live in Florida? Who is connected to Michael's case and lives in another state?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

.

can anyone tell me if there is a list of the witnesses? and where did they mention that Klien and Adams are potential witness ? I did not finish reading the transcipts , so is that info there ?

I haven't seen a list, I guess it's not been made public. But in the transcript of 28th february they say that the prosecution has a list of 108 witnesses, 91 for the prosecution. They are potential witnesses.
Out of the 91 witnesses, the defense has 40 character witnesses, and about 25 witnesses that are on the prosecution witness list.

They mentioned Adams and Klein on 28th february, saying that they were hostile witnesses (they are prosecution witnesses, not cooperating with the defense, they are , well at least Klein is "fighting the defense").

About Dr White Flanagan said he did not provide a written statement because Dr White had not finished reviewing the evidence (according to Flanagan, they received it late ).

Flanagan vaguely explained Dr Whites theory : "Michael was addicted to propofol or demerol, it had somtehing to do with his inomnia, he was in withdrawal from demerol on 25th, Murray did not cause Michael's death". Flanagan also said that it was White's tentative opinion : White did not have the chance to review properly all the docs at that time.

They also talk a lot about the surveillance cameras : what they have are short clips showing Michael and Murray arriving at the house, the prosecution has nothing else, they said that the LAPD had nothing else. The defense wants the whole night and morning, until the paramedics arrived.
So the judge asked the prosecution to find out where are the rest of the recordings, if they exist.

Then they talked a lot about the photos (Taken at the Carolwood residence, and the autopsy photos). The prosecution has given all the photos they have to the defense, but they are watermarked (they have the defense lawyers' name on them). Flanagan said he wanted the photos in digital format, with no watermark, because his experts could not examin them properly.
There was a problem about which photos they wanted : Chernoff (who wasn't there on the 28th) wrote a letter to the prosecution asking for better quality photos, but he specifically said he did not want pictures of Michael.
Then it was not clear what the defense wanted (only Carolwood ? Autopsy photos where Michael would not be recognisable ? All the photos ? )
The judge ordered that all the non autopsy photos should be given to the defense, with no watermark. About the other photos he wanted to hear from Chernoff , so he ordered Chernoff to be present at the next hearing (march 2nd) so he could understand what the defense wanted. There is a concern that the photos might leak.


Flanagan also insisted on the gastric content, saying it was very important to work on that.

About the probate docs : Flanagan said he would have a financial analyst write a report on these docs, to show why they are important. Ms Brazil gave an example of the docs, it was a statement from Katie Jorrie about someting Katherine did in July 09. (I think it was something about AEG)


I think I read somewhere , but I can't find it anymore, that Walgren mentions "outstanding fingerprints evidence". Has anyone else read that ?

Also, the judge is clearly upset by the defense.


The prosecution did not talk much, it was mostly Flanagan trying to explain why he could not provide his discovery on time.

My feeling so far :

the defense is still going by the drug addict theory (self injection, gastric content, Murray's treatment made more complicated because of demerol) AND someone else (a third person) did it (surveillance footage, probate docs).

It sounds like they don't have a clear theory yet.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Who could this person be? Does Lee live in Florida? Who is connected to Michael's case and lives in another state?

on the 28th, Flanagan mentions someone who is in Texas (Dr White probably), and someone who is in Canada. They could be experts, so not necessarily directly connected to the case.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Did Murray tell MJ he was trained in propofol? I can't imagine MJ would allow some amateur to do this to him? I am seriously believing that Murray convinced MJ he knew what to do and that he would monitor him constantly. I really hope the prosecution asks Murray if he takes the stand, if he told MJ he would monitor him and that he knew what he was doing?

I think that's what Murray did. But there is no evidence so far. If Murray takes the stand he will be asked about that. And Dr Adams testimony might help.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Chernoff said that out of 7000 pages of discovery provided by the prosecutors 4500 were about Murray's financial situation; lawsuits , child support , foreclosure on his home ...etc , also he said Walgren described him as reckless , IMPATIENT , not trained in propofol ...etc and they believe that will be used by the prosecutors thus they are going to call character witnesses who are Murray's patients.


I think that's a wonderful news to us. The prosecutors will bring up his messy life and it won't be only about what happened in that last day.

The judge talked about character witnesses related to something relevant in this case like his medical ability , so we shall see how far he will allow the prosecutors to go into his private life.

Yes that's great news, I hope the judge will allow that, because I think that money and ego are the problems in this case.

where did you read that ? I haven't had the time to read everything either.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

So this Dr White came up with that conclusion without looking at the evidence? I bet he won't get his behind on that stand and say that especially if he's a professional expert. Demerol had nothing to do with MJ's death
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

on the 28th, Flanagan mentions someone who is in Texas (Dr White probably), and someone who is in Canada. They could be experts, so not necessarily directly connected to the case.

he said someone who was accesible to the prosecution before and they want to subpoena him/her now . White and the other experts talked to the defence FIRST and they may have been later contacted by the prosecutors

Bouee in a previous hearing they said that their expert can't tell the head from the tail and they wanted better quality photographs of the syringes , the IV system...etc.

Also regarding White who according to Flagan is the most important witness obvioulsy he was misinformed and his opinion was based on a theory presented to him by the defence.

Someone correct me please but I don't think the hair results could show that specifically on 22 June MJ recieved demerol that's not how things work, so his opinion probably is not based on the results but rather what the defence is going to claim.
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

any guess on who is this witness?

maybe the physician who did the check for the insurance, or maybe ratner?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

he said someone who was accesible to the prosecution before and they want to subpoena him/her now . White and the other experts talked to the defence FIRST and they may have been later contacted by the prosecutors

Bouee in a previous hearing they said that their expert can't tell the head from the tail and they wanted better quality photographs of the syringes , the IV system...etc.

Also regarding White who according to Flagan is the most important witness obvioulsy he was misinformed and his opinion was based on a theory presented to him by the defence.

Someone correct me please but I don't think the hair results could show that specifically on 22 June MJ recieved demerol that's not how things work, so his opinion probably is not based on the results but rather what the defence is going to claim.

exactly.. White was obviously misinformed and only based his opinion on the lies that Murray's team told him. I can't see any propofol expert agreeing with Murray's insomnia treatments using anesthesia and not having monitoring equipment. Was Dr White aware that Murray wasn't watching his anesthesized patient?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I thank all of you for your thoughtful, enlightening discussions of these court proceedings. I am truly grateful.
Please know that it is Springtime for Michael Jackson.

030331close200.jpg
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Yes that's great news, I hope the judge will allow that, because I think that money and ego are the problems in this case.

where did you read that ? I haven't had the time to read everything either.


I totally agree... Murray's financial situation made him give MJ something that he knew he should not have been. I really want him to testify to answer some questions. The first thing I would ask him is has he ever in his medical professional life given a patient anesthesia as a sleep aid at home? and if not why would he give it to Michael knowing that it's not for sleep?
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to the transcripts from the hearings posted on teammichaeljackson.com the defence is going down the route soundmind said about claiming mj was in withdrawl cause he hadnt had demoral since the 22nd when at kliens. klien and adams are on both the defence and pros witness list.

I seriously doubt that "demerol withdrawal" will be any sort of effective defense. I.e., that Michael's health was already impaired because he was "undergoing withdrawal from demerol." Refuting that is the AR, the relatively infrequent visits to Klein's office (not daily), the lack of any prescription for demerol found in Michael's home, and the lack of any actual demerol found. Receiving an injection every several days (Klein's office), is not enough to cause dependency, and hence, "withdrawal." We don't know the results of "hair analysis," which might show traces of demerol given at Klein's office. But, we also know the FREQUENCY of those visits, which certainly were not daily, and there is no evidence that Klein came to Michael's HOUSE.

Also refuting this is the TII footage, with a lot of it shot on the last day of rehearsals. I highly doubt that Michael would be energetic, as we saw in the film, WHILE undergoing "withdrawal." That simply would not be possible. He saw Klein last on June 22. IF he was "undergoing withdrawal," he would not have been able to function on a high level (rehearsals), but THEN come home . . . and experience withdrawal symptoms? That simply makes no sense. So I guess the defense will throw that one at the wall, but I see no way it will "stick."

NEXT?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Withdrawal:
The length and severity of Demerol withdrawal is directly related to how much and how often the drug was used. Generally speaking, you may experience withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking it suddenly after several weeks of continuous use. You should always consult with your physician before stopping this medication.

Obviously, the severity of withdrawal symptoms experienced is directly related to the amount of Demerol taken and the length of time over which it has been taken. Generally speaking, "cold turkey" quitting of this medication is not recommended. If you use Demerol regularly and wish to stop taking this medication, consult first with your physician.

"Cold turkey" withdrawal symptoms can occur four to five hours after the last dose and usually lasts 7 to 10 days. Demerol withdrawal symptoms include but are not limited to: severe anxiety, insomnia, profuse sweating, muscle spasms, chills, shivering and tremors.

Source: http://www.addictionwithdrawal.com/demerol.htm
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I totally agree... Murray's financial situation made him give MJ something that he knew he should not have been. I really want him to testify to answer some questions. The first thing I would ask him is has he ever in his medical professional life given a patient anesthesia as a sleep aid at home? and if not why would he give it to Michael knowing that it's not for sleep?
the reason is obvious he gave it for money, he wanted to receive the 150 grands each month, he was fully aware of the risks and that he wasnt trained, but he did it anyway, to me that's reckless he clearly had a disregard for human life.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I think that's what Murray did. But there is no evidence so far. If Murray takes the stand he will be asked about that. And Dr Adams testimony might help.
lee said mj had told her that his dr told him it was safe to use diprivan alsong as u were monitered properly etc. no doubt the dr was murray but unless lee testifyes and says his name (muray) i doubt it would be admissable

seems white knows very little about the case and it just giving his opinion based on what the defence have told him.wouldnt surprise me if he wants nothing to do with it when he founds out as hes gonna be embarassed on the stand.and if klien is being hostile to the defence and playing ball with the pros then he can debunk that theory straight away. i hardly doubt hes gonna want to get on the stand and say yeah i was giving mj loads of demoral for the sake of it and basically admit supplying to an addict

re how many times mj went to kilens. looking back in my diary i have 6 trips from may 1st to june 22nd. this is based off pics and fan reports. so even if there were a few trips on the quiet that we didnt know about. this doesnt help the defence at all. some weeks he went to kliens once a week. there were other times were he didnt go for a couple of weeks at a time.

I haven't seen a list, I guess it's not been made public. But in the transcript of 28th february they say that the prosecution has a list of 108 witnesses, 91 for the prosecution. They are potential witnesses.
Out of the 91 witnesses, the defense has 40 character witnesses, and about 25 witnesses that are on the prosecution witness list.
certainly shows what little case they the defence have. if out of 91 witnesses 40 are paitents etc and 25 are prob hostile witnesses

do we know when the next hearing is btw
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

re how many times mj went to kilens. looking back in my diary i have 6 trips from may 1st to june 22nd. this is based off pics and fan reports. so even if there were a few trips on the quiet that we didnt know about. this doesnt help the defence at all. some weeks he went to kliens once a week. there were other times were he didnt go for a couple of weeks at a time.

Right, and that is exactly my point, about why Klein will not be useful for the defense. One does not develop an "a-word" to demerol by having it infrequently, and as infrequently as "a couple of weeks," sometimes? At that time, the paparazzi were pretty much camped outside of Klein's office, and/or followed Michael's vehicle from his house. I doubt there were "trips on the quiet," and even if there were, I'm sure they were infrequent.

Back then, I remember a fan developing a "schedule" predicting when Michael's next appointment at Klein's would be! (that was pretty accurate.) The infrequency of the doctor's appointments (i.e. not daily) pretty much ends the "demerol withdrawal theory." Doesn't it?

No wonder Klein is a "hostile witness?" He really plays no part in this.

So, basically, what we have as defense strategies is:

Michael was weak and sickly and his primary physician didn't NOTICE.

Michael was undergoing "demerol withdrawal," and Murray didn't notice that either, and gave him the propofol? (not possible, given TII footage)

Leading to a defense of:

Michael was weak and sickly (but his primary physician failed to notice despite the fact that Michael was his ONLY patient, and Murray somehow had NO medical records for Michael from any other doctors, and was entirely clueless about any other treatments Michael may have been getting?) and while going through withdrawals (unnoticed by his DOCTOR), Michael self-injected and Murray didn't notice that, either, because he was in the toilet for TWO minutes?

I can't see any defense here, at ALL.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

elusive, i remember TMZ gotten hold on docs from Kleins which showed MJ was there alot of times without it reaching paparazzi or the MJ board which suprised me a little. The last time was June 22.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

elusive, i remember TMZ gotten hold on docs from Kleins which showed MJ was there alot of times without it reaching paparazzi or the MJ board which suprised me a little. The last time was June 22.

TMZ link?

See my post above, about "demerol withdrawal." If one has developed a physical dependency, withdrawal symptoms begin within four to seven hours after the last dose of medication. If one has NOT developed a physical dependency, there will be no withdrawal symptoms. I highly doubt Michael was going to Klein's clinic every "four to seven hours," and there is no evidence of Klein's visiting Michael's home, no prescription for demerol or actual demerol found in the home, and no demerol found in Michael's system as per the AR.

I really do think we can cross off "withdrawal" from the list of viable defense strategies.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

elusive, i remember TMZ gotten hold on docs from Kleins which showed MJ was there alot of times without it reaching paparazzi or the MJ board which suprised me a little. The last time was June 22.

u mean the payment list klien put into the estate? did that have all the dates on. i dont remember any list with loads of dates on. do u or does anyone else have it
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Right, and that is exactly my point, about why Klein will not be useful for the defense. One does not develop an "a-word" to demerol by having it infrequently, and as infrequently as "a couple of weeks," sometimes? At that time, the paparazzi were pretty much camped outside of Klein's office, and/or followed Michael's vehicle from his house. I doubt there were "trips on the quiet," and even if there were, I'm sure they were infrequent.

Back then, I remember a fan developing a "schedule" predicting when Michael's next appointment at Klein's would be! (that was pretty accurate.) The infrequency of the doctor's appointments (i.e. not daily) pretty much ends the "demerol withdrawal theory." Doesn't it?

No wonder Klein is a "hostile witness?" He really plays no part in this.

So, basically, what we have as defense strategies is:

Michael was weak and sickly and his primary physician didn't NOTICE.

Michael was undergoing "demerol withdrawal," and Murray didn't notice that either, and gave him the propofol? (not possible, given TII footage)

Leading to a defense of:

Michael was weak and sickly (but his primary physician failed to notice despite the fact that Michael was his ONLY patient, and Murray somehow had NO medical records for Michael from any other doctors, and was entirely clueless about any other treatments Michael may have been getting?) and while going through withdrawals (unnoticed by his DOCTOR), Michael self-injected and Murray didn't notice that, either, because he was in the toilet for TWO minutes?

I can't see any defense here, at ALL.

Good post Autumn... For Murray to be Michael's primary care physician for 3 years he sure as hell didn't know much about him, which I find hard to believe.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

For Michael to be going through withdrawal it would mean he would haven taken that painkiller daily in doses enough that his body would go through a change while under it. Anyone who has been taken a painkiller and stops by order of a doctor can tell you this. You feel like crap you can't stop shaking you sweat and you may have the diarrhea. You're body's way of asking you were is my fix? Kenny Ortega said Michael kicked ass on June 23 and the 24 no one going through withdrawal is going to do that.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

In addition, the police already conducted investigations on other known MJ doctors and ruled
out any involvement by them in the homicide of Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

For Michael to be going through withdrawal it would mean he would haven taken that painkiller daily in doses enough that his body would go through a change while under it. Anyone who has been taken a painkiller and stops by order of a doctor can tell you this. You feel like crap you can't stop shaking you sweat and you may have the diarrhea. You're body's way of asking you were is my fix? Kenny Ortega said Michael kicked ass on June 23 and the 24 no one going through withdrawal is going to do that.

and also I highly doubt if Klein will get up on that stand and admit to giving MJ loads of demerol. I think Klein is shady as hell and I do believe he did procedures on MJ that were totally unncessary but what he gave MJ did not kill him considering Klein had been treating MJ for over 25 years.Murray is the one that gave MJ anesthesia at home and didn't watch him or monitor him.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

In addition, the police already conducted investigations on other known MJ doctors and ruled
out any involvement by them in the homicide of Michael Jackson.

yep! you are right
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

For Michael to be going through withdrawal it would mean he would haven taken that painkiller daily in doses enough that his body would go through a change while under it. Anyone who has been taken a painkiller and stops by order of a doctor can tell you this. You feel like crap you can't stop shaking you sweat and you may have the diarrhea. You're body's way of asking you were is my fix? Kenny Ortega said Michael kicked ass on June 23 and the 24 no one going through withdrawal is going to do that.

Precisely. That that is why the "withdrawal from Demerol" defense, is no defense at all.

Next?
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Precisely. That that is why the "withdrawal from Demerol" defense, is no defense at all.

Next?



yep they should pull out the TII rehearsal footage to show he wasn't in no withdrawal.. Murray is screwed because everyone will say MJ was just fine until Murray started his 'treatments'. In my opinion it seems as if MJ went downhill around that time period because in March at the announcements he looked great and seemed fine.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Also Murray's team must remember that Murray was doing a lot of talking to other folks when MJ was either dead or dying. They can't ignore that no matter how hard they try. Just a few minutes before Murray 'discovered' MJ dead, he was telling an insurance company that his patient was fine and healthy. What is the defense going to say to that? Murray didn't tell the insurer, AEG, Kenny Ortega or anyone else that MJ was in a drug withdrawal and desperately needed help or rehab did he? Nope.. he told anyone who would listen that MJ was just fine, even told Ortega to mind his own business because he was MJ's doctor and knew what he was doing..

Murray is a liar and he needs to go to jail..
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

maybe the physician who did the check for the insurance, or maybe ratner?

yeah

lee said mj had told her that his dr told him it was safe to use diprivan alsong as u were monitered properly etc. no doubt the dr was murray but unless lee testifyes and says his name (muray) i doubt it would be admissable
I believe it will be admissible because Murray first bought propofol on the first week of April which is documented .Lee said that MJ first asked her about propofol on Easter weekened which I believe was on April 12 or around it. Yes she would not be asked whether she believe MJ meant Murray but the prosecutors will be able in their opening and closing arguments to make the connection between the two. Of course we have also Adams who was visited in March before Murray bought propofol and before MJ talked to Lee and Metzeger who was asked on April 27 .

Yes that's great news, I hope the judge will allow that, because I think that money and ego are the problems in this case.

where did you read that ? I haven't had the time to read everything either

either the February 15 hearing or the previous one. Brazil was complaining that the defence only provided the names of the witnesses , their phone numbers and their addresses and the discovery did not have anything about their potential testimony like statements ...etc .

Falgan said that most of them are Murray's patients and Brazil said why would they list his patients and he replied that they were character witnesses. She asked what did character witnesses mean and he answered that out of the 7000 pages of the discovery 4500 were on Murray's financial life and that Walgern attacked Murray during the preliminary hearing and said he was impatient, reckless, not trained in propofol ....etc thus he expected the prosecutors to use that against him during the trial and they needed those witnesses to counter what the prosecution would do.


One thing I noticed and I was very surprised to know that, the expert that gave her opinion on the autopsy report did not provide written report of her evaluation of the hair samples .

Are we then left with that asshole Rafelo?
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

u mean the payment list klien put into the estate? did that have all the dates on. i dont remember any list with loads of dates on. do u or does anyone else have it


Here :

http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/1027_klein_jackson_wm.pdf

or here (lesser quality) :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48714326/...s-Claim-towards-the-Estate-of-Michael-Jackson

it shows "IM injections", it doesn't say what those injections were.
 
Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Exactly.. Michael was seeing Klein for 25 years.. MJ didn't die in those 25 years, he only died when Murray came on board. Also Murray knew about Klein and Mike's dermatological/skin disorder issues, so why didn't Murray talk to Klein about his patient? Murray was taking on MJ has a patient he should've done alot of research and background work considering the rumors of MJ's health and his 1993 addiction to pain killers. Wouldn't a smart doctor get past medical records of a new patient especially if that patient is MJ and had a past problem with painkillers that was known 16 years ago when MJ admitted it himself?

Exactly. And if Murray took the job without knowing anything about Michael's medications and treatments from other doctors, then as a doctor Murray was required to find this stuff out. And there was alot more to that than simply asking Michael IMO. Especially since the rumors about Michael being in horrible health were everywhere. So there was no reason why Murray couldn't dig around and get himself more aware of how to treat Michael. Everybody knew that Michael was going to see Klien. The paparazzi made it a point to photograph Michael everytime he came out the office door. Did Murray even go to talk to Klien? If not, why not? In my opinion, Murray had to have known about Michael seeing Klein otherwise he wouldn't have tried to implicate him in this case. And I bet Murray could have gotten some of Michael's medical records from Klien and learned how to treat Michael the right way and he wouldn't be in this mess IMO.
 
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Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

seems white knows very little about the case and it just giving his opinion based on what the defence have told him.wouldnt surprise me if he wants nothing to do with it when he founds out as hes gonna be embarassed on the stand.and if klien is being hostile to the defence and playing ball with the pros then he can debunk that theory straight away. i hardly doubt hes gonna want to get on the stand and say yeah i was giving mj loads of demoral for the sake of it and basically admit supplying to an addict

this is exactly how I felt about it when I read the transcript. We'll have to wait and see.

do we know when the next hearing is btw

there was one on march 2nd, but I haven't seen the transcript.
 
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