Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

But, sorry if I am a bit distrustful, but unfortunately there is still so much bias against Michael that it's not always easy to be hopeful.

yeah very true

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Since conscious sedation has been mentioned, here is the lowdown as per the AANA:

"..induces an altered state of consciousness that minimizes pain and discomfort through the use of pain relievers and sedatives. Patients, who receive conscious sedation usually are able to speak and respond to verbal cues throughout the procedure, communicating any discomfort they experience to the provider. A brief period of amnesia may erase any memory of the procedure.

...administered in hospitals, outpatient facilities, e.g., ambulatory surgery centers, doctors offices, etc., to facilitate procedures such as the following:

Breast biopsy
Vasectomy
Minor foot surgery
Minor bone fracture repair
Plastic/reconstructive surgery
Dental prosthetic/reconstructive surgery
Endoscopy (example: diagnostic studies and treatment of stomach, colon and bladder)

Who Can Administer Conscious Sedation?
Conscious sedation is extremely safe when administered by qualified providers. Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs), anesthesiologists, other physicians, dentists, and oral surgeons are qualified providers of conscious sedation. Specifically trained Registered Nurses may assist in the administration of conscious sedation.

Who Should Monitor Conscious Sedation?
Because patients can slip into a deep sleep, proper monitoring of conscious sedation is necessary. Healthcare providers monitor patient heart rate, blood pressure, breathing, oxygen level and alertness throughout and after the procedure. The provider who monitors the patient receiving conscious sedation should have no other responsibilities during the procedure and should remain with the patient at all times during the procedure.

What are the Side Effects of Conscious Sedation?
A brief period of amnesia after the procedure may follow the administration of conscious sedation. Occasional side effects may include headache, hangover, nausea and vomiting or unpleasant memories of the surgical experience.

Questions to Ask About Conscious Sedation
The following is a list of questions patients should ask prior to the surgical or diagnostic procedure:

Will a trained and skilled provider be dedicated to monitoring me during conscious sedation?
Will my provider monitor my breathing, heart rate and blood pressure?
Will oxygen be available and will the oxygen content of my blood be monitored?
Are personnel trained to perform advanced cardiac life support?
Is emergency resuscitation equipment available on-site and immediately accessible in the event of an emergency?
Will a trained and skilled provider stay with me during my recovery period and for how long?
Should a friend or family member take me home?"

So let the defense try and use THAT argument. I don't think so.

This is from the AR:

Resp. depression is usually dose dependent and is accentuated if other sedatives such as benzodiazepines are present.
There is a narrow margin between mere sedation and full general anesthesia with possible loss of the patient's ability to breathe and maintain their airway

The levels of propofol found on tox. exam are similar to those found during general anesthesia for major surgery (intra abdominal) with propofol infusions after a bolus induction. During major surgery a patient with these blood levels...would be intubated and ventilated by an anesthesiologist and any cardiovascular depression would be noted and treated. ..
Lorazepam, a long-acting benzodiazepine, is present at a pharmacologically significant level and would have accentuated the respiratory and cardiovascular depression from propofol."

I can't for the life of me imagine how any defense can argue/refute the implications of this.
The only way I can see that murray would have been comfortable making all those phone calls is if he was sure Michael was 'asleep' or unconscious. And that means a continous infusion of propofol to maintain the 'sleep'. Couple that to the lorazepam and/or if something went wrong with the IV setup, a guarantee bad things would happen. And we all know what.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to the transcripts from the hearings posted on teammichaeljackson.com the defence is going down the route soundmind said about claiming mj was in withdrawl cause he hadnt had demoral since the 22nd when at kliens. klien and adams are on both the defence and pros witness list.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

OK, but what about mixing lorazepam and propofol ?? the autopsy report said you should never mix them.

if I remember correctly, Murray told the LAPD he was using a drip and an IV pole and an empty propofol bottle were found . He didn't have the equipment for that particular way of administering propofol.

What about the huge amounts of propofol that Murray bought ?

and I think the anesthesis report (in the AR report) said that you still need monitoring and ressucitation equipment whatever the level of sedation you want to reach, she did say that you need more precaution for a general anesthesia. But I don't recall she said you can stop monitoring at all. One of the reasons was that it is very easy to make a "mistake" in the dose, and "accidentally" reach a higher sedation than intended.

Could you explain what concious sedation is please ?? Because if the goal was to make MJ sleep, then how could it be that "concious sedation" was what Murray was trying to do ?

I'm aware that we do not know everything about the case, but I'm optimistic about the outcome, with what we know so far.

I didn't follow Anna Nicole Smith case (I wanted to ), but I think that was very different : her death was not ruled a homicide, it was clear from the beginning she did that to herself. The doctors and Stern were charged for conspiring to fuel her addiction (prescribing to an addict/ illegal prescribing, etc ....), which is very difficult to prove.

Here the charges against Murray are about negligence.

at the request of other members I will refrain from responding to those points . But be aware the defence has and already offered their explanation for everything you mentioned above. the excuses are in the search warrants, lawyers' interviews and cross examination.

nonetheless that does not mean the jury will buy them and believe him but we also can't guarantee they will ignore them completely.
Again proving MJ did not do it will send Murray to Jail regardless of everything else, I still believe the prosecution are able to do so thus I'm very optimistic that Murray will be convicted.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

at the request of other members I will refrain from responding to those points . But be aware the defence has and already offered their explanation for everything you mentioned above. the excuses are in the search warrants, lawyers' interviews and cross examination.

nonetheless that does not mean the jury will buy them and believe him but we also can't guarantee they will ignore them completely.
Again proving MJ did not do it will send Murray to Jail regardless of everything else, I still believe the prosecution are able to do so thus I'm very optimistic that Murray will be convicted.

Me too. This judge and the Proc seem to be credible so far, and I am assuming that the Proc know what paths the Defense will take. If they are smart they will have all bases covered and have good experts lined up for relevant medications, drugs, addiction, insomnia, anesthesia, weight, etc. In this way nothing will phase them. We all know the defense will be creative.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to the transcripts from the hearings posted on teammichaeljackson.com the defence is going down the route soundmind said about claiming mj was in withdrawl cause he hadnt had demoral since the 22nd when at kliens. klien and adams are on both the defence and pros witness list.

but what does that have to do with Murray giving MJ propofol and not watching him? There was no demerol in MJ's system and it didn't have anything to do with his death so how will that fly?

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

but what does that have to do with Murray giving MJ propofol and not watching him? There was no demerol in MJ's system and it didn't have anything to do with his death so how will that fly?

It is not going to fly anywhere but out the window. They may try to muddy the waters with the demeral issue, but as I said before, these witnesses have to be cross-examined by the proc. They can say they gave it to him, but the Proc will want to know how long ago, how much, for what, etc. Further, we already know this does not stay long in the system, and as you say it was not in the autopsy. Maybe the Defense will try to state that Michael was familiar with certain drugs, based on the fact these doctors gave it to him. If you do not have a defense, you make a lot of noise and try your case in the media.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

but what does that have to do with Murray giving MJ propofol and not watching him? There was no demerol in MJ's system and it didn't have anything to do with his death so how will that fly?

Excatly, propofol seems to be the main cause of mjs death. Also in the autopsy results demerol was not mentioned

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

The defense will try to throw as much speculation out there as possible, in order to have the jury think "reasonable doubt." I highly doubt that will fly.

There is no evidence that Michael "self-injected," and even if he did, that does NOT explain: the gap in time of Murray calling 911; the incredible negligence of not having rescue equipment there; the ineffective CPR, and the time-line when Michael was GONE, and Murray did nothing.

The "conscious sedation" is a NON-argument. Propofol should NEVER be given without an independent person there to monitor that?

"Michael was going through withdrawals?" That is also a non-argument, to what Murray did or did not do. NON-argument.

"Demerol" has NOTHING to do with the defense. NOTHING. I hope we can leave this behind, now?

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

according to the transcripts from the hearings posted on teammichaeljackson.com the defence is going down the route soundmind said about claiming mj was in withdrawl cause he hadnt had demoral since the 22nd when at kliens. klien and adams are on both the defence and pros witness list.

I had a look at these transcripts, I don't have the time to read them entirely now. I think it's interesting to note that the defense refers to Adams and Klein as "hostile witnesses", and that according to the defense, the prosecution would think that what some of the defense experts would say would be "irrelevant".

Now I'm wondering if Dr White is also a "hostile witness" ?

Again proving MJ did not do it will send Murray to Jail regardless of everything else, I still believe the prosecution are able to do so thus I'm very optimistic that Murray will be convicted.

I really hope that you are right and that the prosecution can prove that MJ didn't do it.

The defense is going for the drug addict theory, to justify self injection / MJ drank the propofol, and the supposed MJ "bad health". There is nothing new, they said that during the prelim.

I'm very optimistic because :
1 it's very easy to use that against Murray
2 it's very easy to show that it's irrelevant

On a personal level, if I was in the jury, hearing a doctor blame his patient in such a situation would just make me mad. Murray did exactly the opposite of what a doctor should do, and the opposite of what most doctors would have done.

 

[8701girl]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I had a look at these transcripts, I don't have the time to read them entirely now. I think it's interesting to note that the defense refers to Adams and Klein as "hostile witnesses", and that according to the defense, the prosecution would think that what some of the defense experts would say would be "irrelevant".

Now I'm wondering if Dr White is also a "hostile witness" ?
.

A "hostile witness" means like they were not corrprating yeh?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I had a look at these transcripts, I don't have the time to read them entirely now. I think it's interesting to note that the defense refers to Adams and Klein as "hostile witnesses", and that according to the defense, the prosecution would think that what some of the defense experts would say would be "irrelevant".

Now I'm wondering if Dr White is also a "hostile witness" ?

if the defence are calling them hostile witnesses it means those two ppl are going to testify for the prosecution and support their case. the defence have just added them to thier list as witnessses for whatever reason. i guess so they can try and get info out of them that will be helpful to the defencecase. ie try and get klien to to talk about mjs previous drug issues. but if those 2 are named as hostile witnesses by the defence then thats good news for us

dr white is a defence witness. hes not a hostile witness.the defence hired this expert.

and yes no doubt the pros is gonna say what dr white says is totally irrelvent. im hoping they file motions to try and stop his testimony. the assistant D>A already said in court what white says has no evidence at all to support it

A "hostile witness" means like they were not corrprating yeh?

bascially yes and if they are on the pros witness list which they are and arent named by the pros as hotile witnesses it means they are cooperating with the pros which is good.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

the assistant D>A already said in court what white says has no evidence at all to support it

she said there is no evidence whatever that demerol had anything to do with MJ's death thus demerol should be considered irrelevant. Unlike what was stated by the media she did not say MJ was not addicted to demerol which I by the way don't believe ,but that's why I always say the prosecutors better have a theory of their own of what took place in the last three months of MJ's life instead of relying on Murray's statement to convict him. His statement was made to clear him and to explain everything incriminating that would be discovered sooner or later. If they keep saying he said this and based on what he said ...etc the defence will use the physical evidence to add to Murray's credibility and they will keep scoring points.

Falagan said MJ could not sleep that night because he suffered from withdrawal symptoms and they will say that's why he was begging and begging for propofol
The judge will allow them to use it in their argument, let's be real that's their defence.

Another expert is Dr.Haraszit who practices psychiatry in California a known media whore who always rush to analyze troubled celebrities . He will of course talk about MJ's mental abilities, the infamous 'psychological addiction' to propofol and probably now demerol.

See it is not as easy as some here believe . Falagan said that Dr.White is the best propofol expert out there and Walgern knew that and he told them Murray did not do it and the defence won't ask him to write down a report but the prosecution can go an question him any time they want and he is willing to meet them.

what material Dr.white received ?

Again if the prosecutors don't rule out the self injection theory , Murray will walk regardless of what the description of the charge says

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Again if the prosecutors don't rule out the self injection theory , Murray will walk regardless of what the description of the charge says

it depends on the judges instructions to the jury. so u seem to have gone very negative recently over things. the core of the charges is his negligence nothing else

mj suffered for insomnia for decades. all this B.S from the defence is very easy to contridict. and until any motions are filed by the pros to stop certain things from being used ie total hearsay from Dr.Haraszit which u mention we arent at a stage yet to judge imo.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

it depends on the judges instructions to the jury. so u seem to have gone very negative recently over things.

yes it depends on the judges instructions, but elusive Murray started visting mj in March of 2009 , the prosecution in the preliminary hearing introduced Ortega to testify to MJ's state in the days preceding his death, tell me now logically if the prosecutors claim Murray was responisble for that behavioural and physical change how come the Judge will prevent the defence from using the fact that MJ was visiting Klien at the same time Murray was staying with him ? we have to use some logic here . He will allow them to go there .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

yeah the judge may allow it but its very easy to contridict. mj was seeing klien a long time b4 murray came onboard.yet the change only happened after murrays arrival.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

yeah the judge may allow it but its very easy to contridict. mj was seeing klien a long time b4 murray came onboard.yet the change only happened after murrays arrival.

Sure. I really do think that the defense HAS no real defense. This is an I.M. charge, and the very idea of giving propofol at Michael's home, without rescue equipment and an assistant -- alone -- is enough to prove extreme negligence.

Don't know what the judge's instructions will be yet, but since no Demerol was found in Michael's system or his house, that medication may not be a factor, at all. If that's brought up, the prosecution can quickly debunk it by simply pointing to the autopsy report and items found in the house (NO Demerol).

So, how would that testimony go? Defense asks Klein, "Were you giving Michael Demerol for medical procedures?" Klein answers, "Yes." But, essentially, so WHAT? Michael died of "propofol intoxication with benzo effect." No demerol.

The autopsy report didn't show a person who was in "declining health," so that line of questioning is likely to go nowhere. There are varying accounts of what kind of shape Michael appeared to be in, but whatever-the-case, there is the data in the AR, and the charges aren't about Murray neglecting to protect Michael's general health -- but about giving the propofol! If the defense tries to say "Michael was in declining health," then why on earth would Murray give him a general anesthetic, in his HOUSE?

Demerol (which was not found in Michael's system or house) is no sort of defense, nor is the narrative that Michael "self-injected." Even if he had done so (which I believe he did not), where WAS Murray? Plus, there was no rescue equipment and no assistant. If the defense tries to paint Michael as a raving "a-word," then that is the "poor Murray was duped" defense? So, WHAT would a doctor do when finding a patient unconscious and not breathing? One doesn't have to be a medical professional to know that one YELLS for someone to call 911 (or quickly calls, oneself -- and now we know that Murray's initial statements about "no phones working; I didn't have a phone" -- is absurd. Of COURSE he had a phone, and was using it) In seconds, after making sure 911 is called, one hauls the person to the floor, and begins CPR. And continues, until help arrives. If Murray had behaved in a way anywhere CLOSE to a medical professional, Michael would be with us today.

Sadly, I think the defense, which is no defense at all, will be to assault Michael's character. I think it's far too simplistic to say "If they can prove Michael self-injected, Murray will walk." I very highly doubt that, give all the many other factors.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Exactly Autumn..


There was no demerol in MJ's system. Besides the charge is negligence, Murray didn't have rescue equipment and he wasn't watching his patient that is the main part of the charge. If Murray had've been watching MJ he would've saw his 'reaction' to the drugs but since he wasn't watching him he died.. I would like for someone to ask Murray what did he deserve $150,000 per month to do since he felt monitoring his sedated client wasn't necessary?

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

yeah the judge may allow it but its very easy to contridict. mj was seeing klien a long time b4 murray came onboard.yet the change only happened after murrays arrival.

Exactly.. Michael was seeing Klein for 25 years.. MJ didn't die in those 25 years, he only died when Murray came on board. Also Murray knew about Klein and Mike's dermatological/skin disorder issues, so why didn't Murray talk to Klein about his patient? Murray was taking on MJ has a patient he should've done alot of research and background work considering the rumors of MJ's health and his 1993 addiction to pain killers. Wouldn't a smart doctor get past medical records of a new patient especially if that patient is MJ and had a past problem with painkillers that was known 16 years ago when MJ admitted it himself?

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Exactly.. Michael was seeing Klein for 25 years.. MJ didn't die in those 25 years, he only died when Murray came on board. Also Murray knew about Klein and Mike's dermatological/skin disorder issues, so why didn't Murray talk to Klein about his patient? Murray was taking on MJ has a patient he should've done alot of research and background work considering the rumors of MJ's health and his 1993 addiction to pain killers. Wouldn't a smart doctor get past medical records of a new patient especially if that patient is MJ and had a past problem with painkillers that was known 16 years ago when MJ admitted it himself?

One would THINK he would have talked to any other doctors Michael was seeing, and would have obtained medical records, as Michael's PRIMARY physician? And if he didn't, isn't that, also, negligence?

Michael's visits to Klein's office were no secret. Paparazzi were right outside the door, each time. Somewhere I've seen a list of the dates Michael went to Klein's clinic, but it was NOT daily. So, if he was receiving Demerol there, it was not on a daily basis, which pretty much debunks the "withdrawal from Demerol" scenario. I think a person can be accidentally addicted to painkillers, but that's when they are taken on a regular schedule, and daily? So, what will the defense say? That Michael somehow had a prescription for Demerol and was self-medicating, without Murray's knowledge? But, where IS that prescription, then? Combine the lack of a prescription with the absence of Demerol in Michael's sytem, and in his house, that seems to be just grasping at straws in terms of the defense.

I also think it's significant that Klein was investigated, but never charged with anything. The wrong-doing here is Murray, all the way.

The way it seems to be developing is that Murray's defense will focus on trying for character assassination of Michael, and it will be ugly. But, in the end, what will be gained? Giving a general anesthetic in someone's HOME is so highly unusual that I doubt there's any way around the gross negligence of that. In the end, no other factors will matter very much.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Murray doing character assassination is a slippery slope. If he believed MJ was so beyond help and an addict, why would he agree to be his physician? and Murray still has to account for him telling everyone involved including an insurance carrier that MJ was fine and healthy. Murray was saying MJ was fine and healthy while MJ was either dead of dying. There is no way Murray can overcome that.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

The fact that Murray didn't get any of MJ's past medical records from his former personal physician is pretty reckless too if you ask me. I know with me my current doctor asked for my past medical records from my former doctor and she also asked me about other medications I was taking along with any allergies etc.. Before she prescibed me anything for blood pressure she took urine and blood from me. I still wonder if Murray even did this? Were there any medical records that Murray had of MJ at all? any blood or urine work at all?

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I am hoping that this judge allow only facts in and doesn't allow the defense attorneys to run amok..

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Chernoff said that out of 7000 pages of discovery provided by the prosecutors 4500 were about Murray's financial situation; lawsuits , child support , foreclosure on his home ...etc , also he said Walgren described him as reckless , IMPATIENT , not trained in propofol ...etc and they believe that will be used by the prosecutors thus they are going to call character witnesses who are Murray's patients.


I think that's a wonderful news to us. The prosecutors will bring up his messy life and it won't be only about what happened in that last day.

The judge talked about character witnesses related to something relevant in this case like his medical ability , so we shall see how far he will allow the prosecutors to go into his private life.

They complain about bad quality photographs at many hearings, February 12 Falagan mentioned that their expert can't tell the head from the tail ( that's can't be MJ ) , later he mentioned they are talking about photographs of the IV tubing, the syringes ...etc . So yeah no wonder Dr.White told them " Murray did not do it" .

No expert could tell them MUurray did not do it, he can tell them MJ could have done it so Murray could not be the one who injected the last injection .

Usually anyone could self inject the amount of a 10 cc syringe , so yes MJ could have injected himself if the IV catheter was in a more reachable place so if White could not tell the tail from the head he sure would tell them MJ could have done it himself. of course that's all my understanding of the hearings and how White reached this conclusion that no sane expert could reach .

Note: The expert said MJ could not do it due to the catheter configuration not the amount of propofol found .

can anyone tell me if there is a list of the witnesses? and where did they mention that Klien and Adams are potential witness ? I did not finish reading the transcipts , so is that info there ?

edit:

Brazil said that they did not take any notes of their conversation with Dr.Calmes . Dr.Calmes is the anesthesiologist who gave her opinion on the toxicology report and stated that it was an injection by someone else. Beside that consultation report she did not provide any written statement.

Flagan said on previous pages that they provided Dr.White with Rafulo's ? findings, the toxicology report , the autopsy , the forensic experts findings..etc but he did not mention anything regarding Dr.Calmes.

Further evidence Dr.White was not provided with the full picture and he will be impeached on the stand severely

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

so the character witnesses will only be relevant to this case?

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

I am hoping that this judge allow only facts in and doesn't allow the defense attorneys to run amok..

exactly,,,but they will probably try and throw alot of stuff in there to try and muddy the waters further abut Michael..

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

so the character witnesses will only be relevant to this case

that's what the judge said, both sides will soon file relevance motions , so we shall see.

ok , any guess on who is this witness?

Chernoff : we have on other issue . We have an out-of -state subpoena request. I believe it is to be provided to you ex parte to explain. We have to explain to you why we need this witness and how it matters to the defence. That is the process that is involved because you have to -- I'm telling you something I know you know. You have to authorize for us to get the other state to authorize the subpoena.
The court: Okay , we can do it ex parte in camera.I'll have to decide if it is the kind of thing that should be provided to the people at that juncture, but right now I don't know if it is.
Ms.Brazil: yes, your honor, and is this witness on the proposed witness list of the defence?
Chernoff:This witness is on our proposed witness list, yes.
Brazil: would that be the one that was turned over to the people?
Chernoff: we know about this witness because the prosecution talked to this witness , interviewed this witness and recorded this witness.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

that's what the judge said, both sides will soon file relevance motions , so we shall see.

shall be interesting. I wonder if Murray has another patient who he gives propofol to as a sleep aid and then doesn't monitor him and goes to talk on the phone to his many girlfriends.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

that's what the judge said, both sides will soon file relevance motions , so we shall see.

ok , any guess on who is this witness?

No idea.. whoever he or she is they've already talked to the prosecution and they don't seem worried.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing Feb 28th

Did Murray tell MJ he was trained in propofol? I can't imagine MJ would allow some amateur to do this to him? I am seriously believing that Murray convinced MJ he knew what to do and that he would monitor him constantly. I really hope the prosecution asks Murray if he takes the stand, if he told MJ he would monitor him and that he knew what he was doing?