Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[Soundmind]

that is the same information that I heard too..from that ustream.....it broke my heart..

SERIOULSY ? THIS IS A DAMN LIE , guys what's wrong with you. Urine concentration was 0.10 ug/ml how many times we have to remind you of that ? It means medically in the last ten hours of his life MJ did not recieve anything exceeding 200mg of propofol if not even LESS and someof you still buy those laughable stories he poured many vials in him and left the room. Please focus and read carefully

 

[ivy]

Guys as far as I understand some of the information comes from Justice4MJ who has people sitting in the courtroom and then calling and telling what they heard. So their reporting seems to be their understanding - that can consist of errors / misunderstanding and sometimes a little exaggeration. Keep that in mind. For the time being if some information cannot be verified through multiple independent sources then classify it as a rumor or personal interpretation.

 

[Petrarose]

Hi all, I just read the no discussion report and the last few pages here. Don't have much time tonight.

Was Katherine at court today and how was she feeling?

Last night I had a very hard time sleeping and when I did, it was really weird.

All I could hear in my head was Michael singing "This is too much for me, too much for me. Why d'you do it, why d'you do it? Repeated several times.
I woke up crying.

Later I felt back to sleep again only to wake up with this very strong feeling that Katherine will fall ill and won't make it through this trial and the children will be devastated and damage for good. What a nightmare!

Don't think I can't take anymore of this and the nasty stuff from the defence hasn't come out yet. It's just too incomprehensible why this tragedy happened? :no:

I need to step away. I feel ill.

I feel you. You have to be strong and remember we are here for you.

 

[Autumn II]

To think of all the countless Docs and Nurses who save lives, who worked the nightshift on Christmas Eve.

I'm so upset, I'm shaking.

What else needs to happen for this license to be yanked in all states where he carries a medical license?

To think of those Docs who lose a patient they actually FOUGHT for.

And this guys flips and lets a father of 3 young children die because he couldn't be bothered to even use the most basic equipment.

Man, free will is sure a bitch at times.

You'd have to put me on suicide watch if I ever was the cause for another to die like that and God knows, ever since I had a child- all life precious, all life.

Bad day. Murray caused so much pain in so many people. Too upset for words.

I am SO sorry, and I DO feel your pain. I have it, too. Hang in there?

I have a child too, and life IS precious. Murray did not care at all for Michael's life. That is clear, now. Sociopathic? Maybe. I have to continue to believe that most people are BETTER than that.

hang in there. . .

 

[Justthefacts]

And you cut an IV bag you can't use it

 

[Milka]

SERIOULSY ? THIS IS A DAMN LIE , guys what's wrong with you. Urine concentration was 0.10 ug/ml how many times we have to remind you of that ? It means medically in the last ten hours of his life MJ did not recieve anything exceeding 200mg of propofol if not even LESS and someof you still buy those laughable stories he poured many vials in him and left the room. Please focus and read carefully

Yeah, I remember that, that's another reason why I don't believe he just cut the IV bag open and poured Propofol into it. No matter how much. And finding a cut open IV bag with a Propofol vial in it is no proof for that either. I think some people are also still confused (I remember they were yesterday or the day before) because they read "Propofol in the IV bag" instead of "Propofol vial in the IV bag".

 

[Petrarose]

SERIOULSY ? THIS IS A DAMN LIE , guys what's wrong with you. Urine concentration was 0.10 ug/ml how many times we have to remind you of that ? It means medically in the last ten hours of his life MJ did not recieve anything exceeding 200mg of propofol if not even LESS and someof you still buy those laughable stories he poured many vials in him and left the room. Please focus and read carefully

This occurs because many cannot remember the facts and the medical analysis from the autopsy report. Thanks for reminding all about the urine Soundmind.

 

[PaceMioDolceCuore]

I am SO sorry, and I DO feel your pain. I have it, too. Hang in there?

I have a child too, and life IS precious. Murray did not care at all for Michael's life. That is clear, now. Sociopathic? Maybe. I have to continue to believe that most people are BETTER than that.

hang in there. . .

Thank you. We're all feeling the same.

I mean, most of us even check the clock when a teething crabby 11 months old gets a tiny dose of something to help along, after you wreck your brains. Man.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

Interesting comment from someone on Sprocket's Blog:

KZ said... Very interesting chain of events described. I'm an anesthetist, so I'd like to comment on the medical chain of events as you have reported them. It's clear to me that MJ was "quite" dead for several HOURS before Murray even noticed he wasn't breathing. If MJ's periphery was "cool" to the touch at 12:25 when paramedics arrived, assuming an ambient temperature of at least 72 degrees in the room, and the body on an insulated bed, clothed, possibly with bed covers over him, it would have taken several hours of cooling for the periphery of the body to feel "cool" to another human's touch. If the body periphery skin temp was even 90+ degrees, it's likely he could have been dead since at least 9 a.m. or earlier. No mention yet of rigor, which usually begins around 4 hours PM. Frankly, I don't doubt that Murray claims to have given him more meds at 10 am-- he simply failed to recognize that his patient was DEAD. A fairly critical error for any health care professional.

MJ kept getting propofol infused into his dead body, which was not metabolized or circulated by his non-beating heart. Hence the sky-high blood levels at post. Depends on what rate the infusion was at when he died how much more accumulated. Murray may well have bumped his IV with another 25mg at 10 am-- and I agree that THAT 25mg wasn't what killed his patient! Murray didn't have the skills of any ICU nurse or any first- week- in- the- OR anesthesia student. THAT is what killed his patient.

Murray was "nursing" the meds and IV's-- not monitoring and assessing his patient, which can lead to dead patients in hospitals, as well as outside of hospitals. And without a cardiac monitor displaying rhythm and respiratory impedence (hello, you're a CARDIOLOGIST, Murray!), end tidal CO2, or a pulse oximeter, or a stethoscope, he was relying on his completely untrained, and nonexistent assessment skills to detect apnea and lack of a pulse in his patient. And no advanced airway management was ever attempted. I doubt very much that Murray even knows how to position someone's head or jaw to open an airway or assist inadequate respirations, let alone competently use an ambu bag or intubate.

That MJ's corpse received 30 minutes of ACLS at the scene with documented asystole (after badly attempted bystander basic CPR), and another 73 min of ACLS at the hospital ER with documented asystole, far, far exceeds what any person would receive who was not known to be severely hypothermic. I cannot imagine what the staff was thinking during that code.

And while I agree that it was egregious and incompetent that Murray did not mention the propofol to any of the legitimate medical providers, it would not have made one bit of difference if they had known, as there is no "reversal" agent for propofol. All that info would have done is persuade them that MJ was indeed quite dead, and they would have called the code even sooner.

Arrogance, incompetence, greed, and narcissism, plus the all important M.D. after Murray's name, killed his patient.

Sorry if this is the wrong place - as it doesn't directly pertain to Day 4 of the hearing - not sure where else to post it as we don't really have a "general discussion" thread. =/

 

[Petrarose]

Interesting comment from someone on Sprocket's Blog:





Sorry if this is the wrong place - as it doesn't directly pertain to Day 4 of the hearing - not sure where else to post it as we don't really have a "general discussion" thread. =/

Thanks. That reports sums it up correctly, to me. Murray was a highly competent Dr.(sarcasm alert).

 

[wendy2004]

This is very confusing for me. Is this still making Murray look bad?

Oh yeah....on the medical side...

... and on the personal side.
So it was THREE girlfriends and a wife?? smh.

Thanks to all for the updates & news.

This Nicole is a piece of work. Not judging, but not suprised at her answers. Her former profession required her to track waving dollar bills like a kitten chases a rolling ball of string. What kind of woman, knocked up by a man, does not question where he's disappearing to at night til the morning? Did she think he had a job in a hospital somewhere? And knowing how he met HER (in a strip...err gentleman's club), HOW could she NOT question him being out ALL night long, possibly waving dollar bills at other strippers. lol

She is not fooling anybody. Either she's a gold-digger who honestly didn't care what her sugar daddy was doing as long as the dollars keep waving into her ...err....pockets or she's playing dumb/ignorant to as much as she can to save Murray's a$$. And now she's an "actress". Fo sho. Don't quit that night job, Nicole. And LOL @ the judge telling her to pay attention and answer faster. I imagine it takes TIME to think about dodging questions one is scared to answer honestly...or CAN'T answer honestly. Pathetic!

The IV from the IV bag. Last page of your worksheet. “IV bag from the IV stand.”Did it have liquid in it? Yes.Did you have it finegerprinted? I don’t remember.This IV bag had some tubing coming down from it. Yes. And in the tubing hand an IV in it?half way from the tubing there was a clamp THAT'S THE Y CONNECTOR and that clamp had a syringe in it.The plunger was depressed. I don’t remember if there was a small amount of liqued in the syringe?Was the plunger completely depressed? I don’t remember exactly where it was.Was there residue? I don’t remember?Was there more tubing below that IV port? yes.Did that tubing have liquid in it? I do’n’t remember?Did the tubing above it have liquid in it? yes.Was that clear? YesWas the IV bag clear? Yes.Did it have a milky appearance to it? It was clear.


the Y connecter =the CLAMP = IV port where the syringe was injected and the plunger was completely depressed =BOLUS INJECTION

above the clamo the liquide was CLEAR , below was the 13.5 SHORT TUBING with propofol traces.

What that means?.... EXACTLY BOLUS INJECTION BY SOMEONE ELSE.

Re read carefully

It's over for Murray officially

Thanks for the explanation, Soundmind. :flowers:

Some word-for-word court transcripts and diagrams would be awfully nice so we could match up what's being said with a visual aid.

Can you explain why this means it's over for Murray and why "by someone else"?

If the IV was in MJ's leg. And there was a 13,5" tube from the Y-connector to the IV in his leg, he could've easily reached the Y connector, I think, and have pushed down the syringe with propofol by himself...

I'm not saying that's what he did, but I'm trying to envision how the scene would have looked, with the tubelengths etc, wouldn't it be possible for the defense to argue MJ could've done it himself?

Even if he could reach the needle and the propofol he could not give himself that much propfol without passing out. And there was no Propofol in the bag

Exactly.

Roughest part to read about today was the testimony about a commotion, coughing and mumbling in the background when Murray stopped talking to girlfriend #???. Could it have been Michael in distress? Ugh!

The thing is this...If it wasn't Michael, then someone else was upstairs. Who was mumbling and/or making coughing sounds/noises?

If it was Michael, then he wasn't quietly lying there not breathing when Murray walked in. He was either awake...which would make sense since he had a noon appointment with Travis...OR he was in trouble and his body was STILL physically reacting to something. If only Murray knew WTF he was doing, there may have been a chance for him to survive. If only the proper life-saving equipment were in the room, all Murray would have had to do was use it. There could have been a chance.

Heartbreaking.

 

[Ingelief]

hi everybody i could not sleep


I was wondering, if you only know michael is death of tox propofol... and you are in the jury and you have listen to this week testimonys would you not have questions like
what did the autopsy say
what did the tox say
which amount was giving at least to be lethal
What is the timeline of the defense
what is the timeline of the pros.

because if thats the case *no info for this prelim* than why not start with witness from the coroner, doctors who know propofol (anis.)

We as fans had 1,5 year of puzzeling exploring etc and these week fits as puzzlepieces but of you take that out of the eqasiun is it very confusing the hear this day of testimonys without knowing how to place it?

Is in this prelim a timeline going to made by the defense and the pros? like this is what we believe happend?
and the testimonys support my storyline *for both sides a different view offcours*



do you know what i mean?

And if he had no more then 200 mg thats 20 ml? how rappid can you push that in.. because if thats below 4 sec (a wild guis) than the defense stil can arqui he did it?

because of you are rappid than its not when amount you are uncunsius but how fast t did go in.. right?

 

[PrincessMichaela]

<DD class=comment-body>Another comment from Sprocket's blog. I highlighted interesting points. (Not necessarily ones I agree with.)</DD><DD class=comment-body><DD class=comment-body>

<DT id=c2612190629361041046 class="comment-author blog-author">CaliGirl9 said... <DD class=comment-body>@ KZ:
Yes! You summed up exactly what I was thinking as I was going through this! As I was reading about the manner in which Propofol was strewn about, I tried to think about the messiest code I&#8217;d ever worked on, and we didn&#8217;t leave as much crap lying about!

The thing we have to remember is the &#8220;scene&#8221; that the coroner&#8217;s investigator observed was after Jackson was worked on in the bedroom and after Murray&#8217;s clean-up efforts. For example, she reported the IV stand was at the head of the bed, on patient&#8217;s left, but the IV was placed in the left (lower) leg. Don&#8217;t most health care professionals place the IV stand on the same side as the placed IV, close to the insertion site? And isn&#8217;t it telling that an IV could not/was not placed in either arm by Murray?

And people think Jackson was healthy! He was in poor, poor shape!

And Dr. Murray asking for magnesium to be given, when it&#8217;s clearly indicated for v-fib, and as a cardiologist, he should have known that, nor was v-fib the rhythm on the paramedics&#8217; EKG!

I&#8217;m looking forward to a couple of facts coming out: First, I am wondering if the drugs found in the tox screen were specifically asked for; in other words, the tox screen wasn&#8217;t for &#8220;whatever you find.&#8221; Second, I wonder if the hair sample taken six weeks after death have been run, and what was found.

Have you read the autopsy report? Propofol and Lidocaine found in stomach contents? Strange&#8230; if Jackson didn&#8217;t have the knowledge how to access a port (I&#8217;m assuming all IV tubings nowadays are needleless&#8230, could he have squirted some down the hatch himself, thinking that was as good a way of taking it as any?

That being said, Murray is still responsible given the delay in proper treatment and notification of 911, regardless of how the Propofol got into him.

Thanks for stopping by!


<DD class=comment-body>


<DD class=comment-body>P.S. And don't get me started regarding my opinion of the use of a condom catheter and the chux! Not exactly equipment you use on a healthy person?

Trying not to explode from her comments (especially the notion that he would be stupid enough to drink an anesthetic, thinking it would put him to sleep. SMH.) However, she raised a couple of interesting questions and seeing as how she's in the medical field and has read the coroner's report, I'm confused as to why she still thinks 1) Michael was an addict, 2) He was in very poor health. Is the report not as vindicating as we may think? This is important to know, considering the addict bs is what Chernoff is going to pull out on Monday.

Any thoughts?

</DD>

 

[GinnyJackson]

MICHAEL JACKSON WAS NOT A F**KING ADDICT. And this woman makes it seem so. trust me in my town there are MANY addicts and i know what to look for and michael had NOTHING these people do. This is pissing me off ROYALLY!

 

[Ingelief]

which woman?

 

[Petrarose]

Another comment from Sprocket's blog. I highlighted interesting points. (Not necessarily ones I agree with.)

Trying not to explode from her comments (especially the notion that he would be stupid enough to drink an anesthetic, thinking it would put him to sleep. SMH.) However, she raised a couple of interesting questions and seeing as how she's in the medical field and has read the coroner's report, I'm confused as to why she still thinks 1) Michael was an addict, 2) He was in very poor health. Is the report not as vindicating as we may think? This is important to know, considering it's what Chernoff is going to pull out on Monday.

Any thoughts?

To me, it seems she thinks because the Iv was placed in his leg and not arm he was not healthy. Maybe it was in the leg because arm marks are easily noticeable. I cannot think of anything else, but she sounds like a female version of Murray.

 

[chanel05]

because God lets us make our own choices and decisions....

i know im late...
true.. he he also ask us to use him as a guide as we make our decisions also......

 

[GinnyJackson]

she sounds like an mj hater to me and is all for murray. I am hving a hard time with this flood of heartbreaking information if i come off as a bitch to anyone here please note that i dont mean to bite your head off i just wish it was murray i was attacking.

and if u wanna see drug addiction COME to iowa you will see its almost worse then any other place because its the most boring state in the world! they have nothing else to do.... i know drug addicts and MICHAEL sure as hell wasnt one of them

 

[GinnyJackson]

i know im late...
true.. he he also ask us to use him as a guide as we make our decisions also......

So what EXACTLY are you saying here? please go on you seem to have tons more to say.......

 

[Ingelief]

@ginnyjackson who are you talking about?

 

[GinnyJackson]

@ginnyjackson who are you talking about?

which post dear?

 

[Petrarose]

she sounds like an mj hater to me and is all for murray. I am hving a hard time with this flood of heartbreaking information if i come off as a bitch to anyone here please note that i dont mean to bite your head off i just wish it was murray i was attacking.

and if u wanna see drug addiction COME to iowa you will see its almost worse then any other place because its the most boring state in the world! they have nothing else to do.... i know drug addicts and MICHAEL sure as hell wasnt one of them

Not only that, she is a fool. If you do not want to do much analysis, you do lazy work which is concluding Michael is a DA. This is just another insignificant person who wants to be relevant by connecting her name to the case.

 

[Ingelief]

@ginnyjackson the woman who makes mj a drugaddict look like and mj hater?

 

[GinnyJackson]

Not only that, she is a fool. If you do not want to do much analysis, you do lazy work which is concluding Michael is a DA. This is just another insignificant person who wants to be relevant by connecting her name to the case.

and what was that "PS" bullsh!t about what condom catheter?

 

[GinnyJackson]

@ginnyjackson the woman who makes mj a drugaddict look like and mj hater?

the caligirl blog post on the other page.

 

[wendy2004]

Another comment from Sprocket's blog. I highlighted interesting points. (Not necessarily ones I agree with.)

Trying not to explode from her comments (especially the notion that he would be stupid enough to drink an anesthetic, thinking it would put him to sleep. SMH.) However, she raised a couple of interesting questions and seeing as how she's in the medical field and has read the coroner's report, I'm confused as to why she still thinks 1) Michael was an addict, 2) He was in very poor health. Is the report not as vindicating as we may think? This is important to know, considering it's what Chernoff is going to pull out on Monday.

Any thoughts?

I think sometimes you have to read people's "opinions" and understand they are just that...opinions. And deducing Michael was in poor shape based on IV placement is her conclusion. Doesn't make it so. Anyone that's been getting intraveneously treated over time may have some vein issues as well as ppl who are suffering from dehydration. Some ppl have naturally small veins (raises hand) to the point of having kiddie needles used on them for medical procedures.

When I see ppl drawing absolute conclusions about things which CAN have variable explanations, I generally ask myself if the person seems "open" to information contrary to their original thought. Looking at that post, I can tell you right now, she's not trying to hear otherwise. If anything, she's trying to convince others that Michael was unhealthy, in poor shape, addict, etc. With ppl like this, you just go round and round and round. I'm so done with the round and round debates now.

Maybe you can look up info about veins and what else, besides drug abuse, may cause them to be small or collapsed. The info is out there. Post that factual info to see if she validates it as a possibility contrary to her belief or if she instantly dismisses it. She might surprise you.

 

[GinnyJackson]

i am going to bed.... i had a dream about this lastnight and i was in the jury and Michael was there telling me what to tell them... it was very strange...good night all

 

[Ingelief]

can you post a link ginny?

 

[Ingelief]

good night ginny hope you sleep well

 

[Petrarose]

and what was that "PS" bullsh!t about what condom catheter?

She is an idiot. She is not looking at the autopsy report in the light of Michaels medical history, + the drugs Dr. Death gave him, + the sloppy cover up, + the connection of a catheter to his medical problem, etc. She is looking at things independent of each other, which is why she is a female version of Murray. If she analyzed the evidence as pieces that connect to each other and tell a story then she would be doing a better job.