Preliminary Hearing 7/1/11 Day Four. Discussion thread

[StarTrader]

for people struggling to understand the medical terms related to IVs, this link is very good in explaining, it also includes images: http://www.cwladis.com/math104/lecture6.php

 

[bouee]

This is very confusing. I feel really dumb.

don't , I'm not sure I understand completely either.

my opinion :

the syringe, plunger depressed, was connected to a short catheter (14 cm) that was in MJs calf : it was very difficult to reach. If he had reached the syringe he would not have been able to inject himself the dose that was found in his body : he would have passed out before (due to the propofol)

I hope i'm not too far from what Soundmind wrote.

 

[marebear]

don't , I'm not sure I understand completely either.

my opinion :

the syringe, plunger depressed, was connected to a short catheter (14 cm) that was in MJs calf : it was very difficult to reach. If he had reached the syringe he would not have been able to inject himself the dose that was found in his body : he would have passed out before (due to the propofol)

I hope i'm not too far from what Soundmind wrote.

Thank you. I am trying to understand all this.

 

[Soundmind]

The syringe Murray used was 10cc, he did not overdose MJ , he simply gave him a rapid injection because he was talking with his girlfriend and MJ waked up , he did not hang up the phone , he put it into his pocker , grapped a syringe and injected rapidly because MJ was semi awake and coughing , he killed him immediatley .

 

[PrincessMichaela]

I openly recognize I remain as lost as I was before.
In fact, I have been lost the whole day. I am totaly confused with all this information and my weak brain can't process a thing :mello:

But I see some of you are quite happy about something against Murray and against the theory of MJ applying more propofol, so I will just stop trying to understand for a while to just join the ride and say if that is good, than it's good

what a day :doh: maybe all this night going to bet by 3 am are haven some negative effect on me.

Goodnight, fellows fans!!! See you :hug:

and please let's have a some rest. this is really exhausting, thanks so much to all of you for your insights and updates.

Haha, I love you, PCR. I am pretty much in the same boat. *Sigh* Goodnight.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

But they also need to look at what kind of syringes...if MJ woudl have needed to add Propofol two times to get to the amount....there you have it. What I mean is....if there were only 10ml syringes....and the overdose was way beyond 100mg....then it would have been absolutely impossible...unless they try to make someone believe, MJ injected 100mg of Propofol withot passing out and then was still able to get MOREPropofol into the syringe and injected himself the second time (and let's not forget...all this in lss than two minutes...while just having woken up from a sedation...) and only then he went unconsciouss and stopped breathing....Also, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me HOW Michael can inject a massive overdose all by himself....when according to Murray only 25 mg of Propofol was needed to get him unconsciouss when HE was the one injecting Propofol...HOW woudl that even make SENSE or be POSSIBLE??? So as long as Murray sticks to his 25 mg...the "MJ gave himself the overdose" theory won't work....So...which is it Murray? YOu gonna change your story now and admit you gave more and then try to explain how you could leave MJ alone....or you gonna stick to the 25mg and then try to tell us MJ would not be knowcked out by the time he hit 25mg when HE was injecting it?? Which one is it gonna be? Huh? Think long and hard....because either way you are in trouble. :evil:

The syringe Murray used was 10cc, according to soundmind so from what was in mj how many times would he have had to inject

 

[StacyJ]

One thing I have noticed is that Murray's defense team have ignored all of the talking Murray was doing on the phone. They know they can't defend that at all. What Murray did was like being in the ER room with a head trauma patient giving propofol, chit chatting with his girlfriend while injecting. They know there is no defense for that so they just ignore it.

 

[mthalen]

I believe the bottle was empty. Erin has reported that the Propofol was being opened & put directly into the IV bag (hence why the bag was cut open) so that he (Murray) wouldn't have to keep watching him to top it up! If this is true, it's just unbelieveable!

There were no drugs found in the long IV-tube and in the IV bag.

 

[marebear]

for people struggling to understand the medical terms related to IVs, this link is very good in explaining, it also includes images: http://www.cwladis.com/math104/lecture6.php

Thank you very much.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

that wasnt in the blog an frankly after the blue feet BS tmz pulled im inclined to think that question wasnt asked as its a major thing that other outlets would report about

the judge did allow the questions shesaid she didnt know about the fingerprinting. tmz are lieing to make it sound more juicy

nevermind it was said

justice_4mj
Defense asked questions if whether a 5"9" man could
have reached a the nightstand to the propofol bottle and inject himself.

MJJCommunity
The defence even insinuated that Michael
reached across grabbed the 100mg bottle of propofol grabbed an needle and injected himself

i guess the defence are now looking at contridicting the bolus impossible to inject story seeing as there was no dip in the bag and tubing

Yeah, I'm very confused about this too. Why was this left out of the blog? And where was it asked in the line of questions? No doubt TMZ got this from J4MJ/MJJC. Where is MJJC twitter getting their info? From Erin? (also J4MJ) Their tweets only differ in wording.

 

[StacyJ]

There is no way in the world MJ got up and got a needle and some propofol that were several 'feet' away according to the coroner assistant and injected himself and got back in the bed.. what in the hell is wrong with Murray's defense team???

 

[mthalen]

The syringe Murray used was 10cc, according to soundmind so from what was in mj how many times would he have had to inject

They dont say how much was found in Michael.

But the nurse said 60mg would be a good "start" for 1st administering.
If the needle was 10cc/100mg, that would still be enough to overdose, I think (assuming the 60mg the nurse is talking about was on the safe side).

 

[PrincessMichaela]

But they also need to look at what kind of syringes...if MJ woudl have needed to add Propofol two times to get to the amount....there you have it. What I mean is....if there were only 10ml syringes....and the overdose was way beyond 100mg....then it would have been absolutely impossible...unless they try to make someone believe, MJ injected 100mg of Propofol withot passing out and then was still able to get MOREPropofol into the syringe and injected himself the second time (and let's not forget...all this in lss than two minutes...while just having woken up from a sedation...) and only then he went unconsciouss and stopped breathing....Also, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me HOW Michael can inject a massive overdose all by himself....when according to Murray only 25 mg of Propofol was needed to get him unconsciouss when HE was the one injecting Propofol...HOW woudl that even make SENSE or be POSSIBLE??? So as long as Murray sticks to his 25 mg...the "MJ gave himself the overdose" theory won't work....So...which is it Murray? YOu gonna change your story now and admit you gave more and then try to explain how you could leave MJ alone....or you gonna stick to the 25mg and then try to tell us MJ would not be knowcked out by the time he hit 25mg when HE was injecting it?? Which one is it gonna be? Huh? Think long and hard....because either way you are in trouble. :evil:

You raise excellent questions. Curious to hear their answer.

 

[marebear]

The syringe Murray used was 10cc, he did not overdose MJ , he simply gave him a rapid injection because he was talking with his girlfriend and MJ waked up , he did not hang up the phone , he put it into his pocker , grapped a syringe and injected rapidly because MJ was semi awake and coughing , he killed him immediatley .

Why would he give him more if he was coughing? I would think that would signal something might wrong. I don't know.

 

[mthalen]

Why would he give him more if he was coughing? I would think that would signal something might wrong. I don't know.

I think he's suggesting Murray wanted to murder MJ, not try and save him?

 

[bluetopez]

IF a jury or juror believe MJ did this to himself (which I believe is ridiculous) how does that help Murray? Cause it doesn't! It would still prove he wasn't watching his patient! So simply convict his ass period!

 

[mthalen]

Correct.

 

[marebear]

I think he's suggesting Murray wanted to murder MJ, not try and save him?

I feel that if Michael did wake up and was coughing to help him and not give him anymore of that stuff. He was still alive.

 

[StacyJ]

Also, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me HOW Michael can inject a massive overdose all by himself....when according to Murray only 25 mg of Propofol was needed to get him unconsciouss when HE was the one injecting Propofol...HOW woudl that even make SENSE or be POSSIBLE???


Summer what you said above is so right.. it doesn't make sense. Any other time according to Murray 25 mgs would knock MJ out but not this time. So he claims MJ just woke up on his own accord, walked several feet away and injected himself with 100 mgs?? There is no way MJ would've been able to inject a whole bottle when he would've been knocked out with just 25 mgs anyway.

 

[Soundmind]

you are still arguing !!! why? This is no longer a theory, it is what really happened backed up by evidence

 

[PrincessMichaela]

So all of those prescriptions were prescribed by Murray only huh?

No, I keep seeing that reported by J4MJ and other people, but it was 4 Murray, 2 Metzger, 1 Klein.

LA D.A. LINK if for whatever reason you'd want 2 contact them:
http://da.lacounty.gov/history/cooley.htm

Thank you.

 

[StacyJ]

IF a jury or juror believe MJ did this to himself (which I believe is ridiculous) how does that help Murray? Cause it doesn't! It would still prove he wasn't watching his patient! So simply convict his ass period!

Exactly.. Mike should never have been in a position to 'inject' himself if the proper protocol was followed. Murray had no business ever leaving MJ alone. I guess the defense doesn't care about the monitoring aspect even though that's one of the main things you do with propofol is monitor the patient's vital signs.

Murray's stupid ass wanted to get paid $ 150,000.00 a month for doing absolutely nothing but drugging MJ up at night. He didn't want to watch him, he couldn't empty the jar of pee, he couldn't put a pulse oximeter on him. He didn't want to do anything and he didn't do anything. $150,000.00 a month this fool wanted and he asked for more according to Frank Dileo

 

[twinklEE]

The syringe Murray used was 10cc, he did not overdose MJ , he simply gave him a rapid injection because he was talking with his girlfriend and MJ waked up , he did not hang up the phone , he put it into his pocker , grapped a syringe and injected rapidly because MJ was semi awake and coughing , he killed him immediatley .

 

[Justthefacts]

That coughing and that voice the woman did not recognize says it all to me. He was there when Michael died

 

[StarTrader]

Why would he give him more if he was coughing? I would think that would signal something might wrong. I don't know.

Because MJ was interrupting his IMPORTANT conversation with his hoe?

 

[marebear]

That coughing and that voice the woman did not recognize says it all to me. He was there when Michael died

Isn't that murder then?

 

[marebear]

Because MJ was interrupting his IMPORTANT conversation with his hoe?

I am so upset right now. It's all making sense to me now.

 

[Milka]

- Blount says he saw Murray scoop up three bottles of lidocaine from the floor and place the vials in a bag during they are trying to revive MJ.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3179324&postcount=19

And then they found that bag hidden somewhere in the closet, right? 2 empty and one open and sort of half full? Do you need that much lidocaine for 1 Propofol injection?

P.S. And the room was pretty messy, I think? With vials and needles, etc. all over the floor? That alone tells a story.

 

[ScrEAm.Jack5on]

I am so confused.

Over the counter night drops.

Awh.

Elissa Fleak (LA Co. Coroner Investgator who performs investigations at scenes of death)

- Arrived at UCLA medical center at 17:20

- Performed an external body examination. Looking for any wounds. Did not find anything at that time.

- Obtained 4 vials of blood from UCLA staff labeled Gershwin. Logged with coroner for toxicology purposes.

- After leaving UCLA, went to MJ's house to observe the scene investigation, specifically the bedroom area.

- Took photogrphs and documented items possibly relevant to pertaining to cause of death.

- Several pill bottles on the night stand next to the bed.

- Prescriptions - flomax, clonazepam, diazepam, lorazepam, temazepam, trazadone, tizanidine, hydrocodone.

- Tubes of lidocaine lotion. Tube of benequin.

- Prescriptions by Dr. Murray, Dr. Metzger (sp?), Dr. Klein

- Prescription bottles in basket in the lower shelf of one of the tables. And on other areas of the table.

- Tube of lidocaine lotion on table. There was a syringe on the table and one on the ground as well, next to the bed. The plunger and the top part of the syringe.

- Oxygen tank, other items. IV bag with connected tubing. Blue “ambu” bag with nasal cannula.

- IV stand on the right side of the bed (when facing the bed at the foot of bed).

- IV stand and IV kit attached, saline bag.

- Medical bottle container of urine and several urine pads. Open box of disposable hypodermic needles. IV catheters.

- Between the two nightstands empty 200 mg vial of propofol and (something).

- June 29th 2009 returned to MJ's home.

- Investigated closet area. Recoverd items. 1 black square bag with a zipper, 1 dark blue bag with a zipper with costco on the outside, 1 light blue and brown colored bag with a zipper with baby essentials bag.

- Syringes, miscellaneous medical supplies, bag full of benoquin lotions, Black pressure cuff, 3 x 30 mg lidocaine, 2 empty, 1 had some liquid in it, all 3 opened. Saline/IV bag apparently cut open with 100 mg bottle of propofol inside. 20 mg bottle of propofol open with liquid in it. 10 mg lorazepam bottle, open with liquid in it. 2 x 10mg bottles of midazolam, both open both had liquid in them. Bloody piece of gauze. A bag of miscelaneous medical packaging, and finger pulse monitor.

- Light blue and brown baby essentials bag. 2 x 100mg bottles of propofol, 2 x 20 mg bottles of propofol, unopened, 3 x 20 mg bottles of lidocaine, opened. 1 x 30 mg bottle of lidocaine, unopened, 20 ml bottle of diazepam, opened.....(...)

- Red pill bottle with no label that contained 14 capsules ephedrine.

- Over the counter night drops.

- Five business cards of Dr. Murray.

- IV clamp, blue strip of rubber, recognized the rubber as used for a tournequet.

- Total 11 bottles of propofol plus one empty bottle on the floor, 6 bottles of lidocaine lotion.

Cross examination..

- Revisited on 29th June as told by detectives additional medical evidence at the house. In the closet room. Three bags that were found in the cabinet.

- Clear plastic bag, no zipper, it was just open at the top. Clumpled up plastics, like disposable syringes, the packaging surrounding syringes, tissues, crumpled up.

- Questioned about the IV bag with the propofol bottle in it. Questioning her about how much was left in the bottle. She didn’t inventory for the amount in any bottles that were opened. Bag fingerprinted later.

- Costco bag mixture of of partially used and full bottles.

- IV bag from the IV stand.

• Had liquid in it.
• Could not remember if it had been fingerprinted.
• IV bag had some tubing coming down from it. Half way down the tubing there was a clamp and that clamp had a syringe in it.
• The plunger was depressed.
• Don't remember if liquid in the syringe.
• Don't remember if it was fully depressed.
• Don't remember if there was residue.
• More tubing below that IV port.
• Don't remember if that had liquid in it.
• The tubing ABOVE the port had a clear liquid and the IV bag had clear appearance NOT milky.

- IV bag had about 1/2 to 3/4 full when it was hanging.

edit:

you are still arguing !!! why? This is no longer a theory, it is what really happened backed up by evidence

Can you explain?

 

[StarTrader]

I am so upset right now. It's all making sense to me now.

That time also fits in with the paramedics theory of how long MJ had been dead by visual signs on his body, blue feet etc.


The defenses argument of Michael injecting himself or even requesting more Prop at that time of day would make no sense as he was due to be having lunch with the kids around that time, and then he was due to have a meeting with Travis in the early afternoon, followed by rehearsals. Michael would've had no reason to be asleep at that time of day.


So in conclusion, Murray reacted quickly w/o using his brain, and it cost MJ his life.