Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

[chanel05]

Hmm, was wondering as well, but than I figured: sometimes when you touch someone they feel very cold, it could've been that the person touching MJ was 'warm' and MJ felt 'cold' but was actually quite 'normal' in temperature...

Kinda strange cause the comment was "he felt cool to the touch" which implies they didnt take his temperature, I think.

they probably didnt. or he could have felt clamly(sp). its like you not "cold" but you arent warm either

 

[PCR]

Fellow fans saw that there were many BAD days and I hope some of them will testify in the court room as well. And I am not going to stop calling Ortega a liar because when they needed to sell TII he said NOTHING about MJ feeling not well. He was saying that everything was great however they mentioned that meeting at MJ house, but nobody said that MJ did not feel well that day.

This!
When talking about MJ, I remember one of the first opinions of Kenny was that MJ was not feeling good. Then it changed to he was just great. All the time during TII movie promotion and after that. And now it happens to be Michael was feeling bad. Well, fans around him saw he was doing bad. And they were called crazy, blind fans, destroying Michael's legacy.

So what can we say now? :mello:

Had it all been that good, Michael wouldn't have had to use this to get some sleep. However, I still say he was playing with fire and it was not a wise / good decition at all. That's clear

 

[MJFan07]

In my opinion then she should have said NOTHING on her Facebook.

If she was "afraid to share what was REALLY going on and sent out a bunch of cheery, FAKE, Facebook messages, then she was lying and is no better then the people she CLAIMS are lying now.

Agree. By posting those messages she was intentially deceiving people about his condition, just like she claims others were. She could have posted nothing and instead focused on helping MJ. This is assuming his condition was as bad as she claims, which I don't buy. He obviously was very thin and not in the best of health, but he was not some frail, dying man as some people make him out to be either. He would still be here if not for Dr. Murray.

 

[chanel05]

Actually, this is a very good question, because a time of death is a key. It takes a pretty good time for a body to cool down. Besides, we have to remember that a fire place was ON in the middle of summer. I do not know why it was on. Was Michael feeling cold before he went to sleep?

also didnt it say that the termostat upstairs was on like 85 or something like that. it had to be VERY HOT upstairs.

 

[ivy]

Thanks for the information.


You know who will be there to speak in the second day? :scratch:

probably alberto alvarez

 

[MsJustinBieber]

alberto is first witness to talk tomorow a lady from the inside of the court room told us and she said D.A. was neglegint for manslaughter charges. i think i spelled it correct.

 

[Ingelief]

ok hope that there will be tomorrow more news

 

[Ingelief]

and who more?

 

[chanel05]

I'm from the U.S., and I know that the D.A. could have instructed the jury in the same court case to find for the choices of Second Degree Murder or the lesser charge of Involuntary Manslaughter. Now, the D.A. has given the jury only the choices of Involuntary Manslaughter or let Murray Walk on a Carribean Beach.

"Evil often has a Smell."

true... but the reason the da made that decision is because its easier to prove manslaughter than murder 2 IN THIS CASE. they have a better chance of getting a conviction

 

[TheChosenOne]

I know we are all here because we want to get justice for Michael. I am concerned, however, that some of us do not seem to realise that this time around the prosecution is on Michael's side.

Why are we speculating about what this or that person said/felt/believed/tweeted/overheard? Was anything said today in the testimony that in any way put Murray's guilt in doubt? If so, what? If not, why are we fretting the he said/she said stuff?

Enlighten me!

 

[TheChosenOne]

Now my post above seems totally random but I have been noticing this trend throughout the day.

 

[chanel05]

*big sigh*


Well....

Travis Payne was there. He has not spoken?

On the second day, who will be there to speak? :scratch:

i believe travis was there for support and he left because there was no room for him in court

 

[ginvid]

I think we really need to stop jumping the gun here. Kenny was speaking about one day in particular, not the whole time he was rehearsing. Also we have to wait for things to be made clearer with regards to the propofol use. And, used properly, propofol is very safe. So the question has to be what did MJ know. And how safe was he made to feel.

Jumping to conclusions simply based on emotions will not help anything. As difficult as it may be, we NEED to be patient.

And please do not double post.

 

[Asedora]

I hear you.
And painful as it might be, I agree with you on this.
He was playing with fire on this. He must have known :no:

Not just him. Everybody KNEW why CARDIOLOGIST was hired and what dangerous situation MJ will have to deal with. AEG hired Murray for a reason, in case if one day MJ will need CPR. They KNEW what was going on. 100 hours of footage was done for a reason too, to cover expenses in case if MJ will not survive.

 

[Ashtanga]

probably alberto alvarez

alberto is first witness to talk tomorow

Thanks!

i believe travis was there for support and he left because there was no room for him in court

Now, I was thinking that too. But perhaps he will yet speak..... or not.

and who more?

Yes.... I'm also curious to know.

 

[chanel05]

Exactly. People have to understand that to treat insomnia problem you have to hire a specialist in this aria. Cradiologists DO NOT F*g treat insomnia! Murray was hired To HELP MJ to SLEEP. And this was WRONG on many levels from the beginning because if a person had obvious problems and needed help, you should not hire cardiologist to inject him with propofol.

I hear you.
And painful as it might be, I agree with you on this.
He was playing with fire on this. He must have known :no:

i will just advise yall to stop right here... i just got out of a whole bunch of mess because i felt that way. just leave it alone

 

[summer]

More info about Michael Amir's testimony

Michael Jackson’s personal assistant, Michael Amir Williams, is the second person to take the stand in the preliminary hearing of Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson’s personal physician.

Williams testified, on the night Jackson died he got an urgent call from Murray saying ” Jackson had a bad reaction, a bad reaction, get here right away.” But he said, Murray did not ask him to call 911

Williams said he arrived at the house when the ambulance was already there and helped put the children in a car to follow the ambulance. He said the scene at the hospital was chaotic and he was in the room when the Jackson kids were told their father had died. Williams said Dr. Murray then approached him and said” Mr. Jackson has some cream in his room that I know he wouldn’t want the world to know about it, can you drive me back to the house to get it? Williams told Murray he didn’t have a key to the house when in fact he did. He says he called the house and ordered that it be put on lock down and not to let anyone in.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/01/michael-jacksons-personal-assistant-stand

So Murray was looking for a way to get back to the house...bet it was not to get some "cream" but to get rid of the Popofol bottles, etc.

Subsequently, Murray said he was going to get something to eat and left the hospital. In his cross-examination, Murray’s attorney, Ed Chernoff, questioned Williams about his connection to the Nation of Islam and about other phone calls he made in the minutes after Murray’s call.

He also asked the personal assistant how frequently he went upstairs to Jackson’s bedroom, and whether his fingerprints may be found on vials, intravenous bags or syringes.

“I don’t know how that’s possible, I never touched any of that,” Williams said.


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...n-too-weak-to-perform-just-before-death-.html

Sounds like Murray's lawyers are desperate...trying to create "resonable doubt"...to make anyone else except Murray responsible. Well...seems like that one isn't working. And I bet they won't find MJ's fingerprints on the syringes either...

Its changed so god damn much its insane. All that is known for sure is that was a significant delay. In the end of the day if you find someone not breathing two minutes is too long to wait before dialling 911 let alone 20, that's madness.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

12.21


at 11:51am he phoned somebody in Houston for 11 minutes. is that nicole was she not in L.A?


At 11:18am he called his Las Vegas office for 32 minutes

at 11:49am he called another Las Vegas phone for 3 minutes

at 11:51am he phoned somebody in Houston for 11 minutes.

at 12:05 pm he called MJ's assistant.

at 12: 21 pm paramedics were called


also if the D.A is going with the second timeline that means murray was on the phone non stop from aprox 11.15 till the times given above. so hes sat with the phone under his chin while injecting mj and not watching him

It would be interesting to know when exactly Murray went to the bathroom for two minutes. Remember he insisted he was away for LESS than 2 minutes. He can't change his story now. So when was that Murray? Did you go pee while talking on the phone? Does anyone remember when he left the voice message to that patient called "Bob" (not 100% sure if that was the name...)? I read Murray left a mesage to Amir at 12:13....That would still mean an 8 minute CONFIRMED delay to calling 911. And it took him most likely much much longer....If someone is not BREATHING and you wait that long....yes, their heart is gonna stop at some point because they are not getting any OXYGEN....yes, they are gonna DIE...And Murray as a CARDIOLOGIST should KNOW that....But maybe that's exactly what he wanted...?

TMZ update

Faheen Muhammad, one of Michael Jackson's bodyguards, just testified he was in Michael's room after Murray noticed MJ stopped breathing. Faheen told the prosecutor, Murray was on his knees doing compressions on MJ in a panicked state, when he turned to Faheen and another bodyguard and asked, "Does anyone in the room know CPR?"

Faheen recalled how Prince and Paris were near the room and Paris was on her hands and knees crying. The nanny took them away.

Faheen also said after Michael was pronounced dead at UCLA, Dr. Murray told him he was hungry and wanted to leave. Faheen said he told Murray to eat at the hospital, but Murray left.

On cross-examination, Ed Chernoff got Faheen to admit Murray spoke with MJ's family and police before leaving.

He could have asked if anyone knew CPR to get someone to help him....OR...he just asked if anyone knew CPR to buy himself time...Sort of "Okay...they don't know how it's done correctly. Great! I can go on PRETENDING that I am "helping" him...even though he is already dead (or because he wanted him dead)...

Michael Williams and Michael Amir is the same person?

Yup. He is also called "Brother Michael".

Thanks, that's indeed not what I meant.


Ontopic: I believe Murray knew he f'd up and started calling around to try and cover up his tracks. Wasn't there some talk in the beginning about the propofol being shipped from Texas, or where was his office (I'm sure someone will know the details). He probably called prince up to have a witness to him performing CPR (not suprised he didnt know how to do it, I think he's not the only doctor, sad enough). I assume he didn't want to "call" MJ's dead at the house cause he maybe wanted to try and shift the timeline a bit to make people think that MJ had just collapsed when he called 911 and not 20 minutes or so earlier....

Or he didn't want to call him dead, because that would have meant the cops would have come to the house immediately. If MJ "died" at the hospital...he would have time to go back to the house to get rid of stuff....like we now know he at least attempted to do "I need to go get this cream..." (Right....! Some cream....that is liquid and white and comes in vials and is called Propofol, no doubt! )

Actually, the new CPR standars de-emphasize the breaths in favor of chest compressions (revised by American Heart Association in 2010): http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthcare/New_CPR_guidelines_save_your_breath.html

Either way- it doesn't matter- you can breathe all you want (did he give mouth to mouth?- Was that testified to? You bring up a good point- as those still were the standards in 09, actually)- if you do the chest compressions on a soft surface it's all for naught. I also have my CPR certification (and I am a clinical social worker, NOT a doctor LOL)- and therefore know that the FIRST thing you are taught is to put the victim on a hard surface as otherwise the heart just gets pushed down and is not compressed between the chest bone and the spinal column (which is the whole point).

I hope to see more medical experts during the actual trial- that should leave no doubt about how imcompetent this "Doctor" is.

It's true that they are now telling people that they should at least do compressions. Since a lot of people are afraid of getting HIV and would maybe not want to do mouth to mouth they are telling people to do compressions so that they'd at least do SOMETHING to help. Also, because with adults in most cases the emergencies are due to heart based problems compressions help. With children, the most important thing usually is getting oxygen in them, because their problems rarely are due to problems with the heart.

In this case, since the cause was Propofol, MJ should have been intubated as soon as he was found not breathing. That's why the standard of care when using Propofol includes having someone there who knows how to intubate and requires you to have that gear ready. You should be PREPARED to do something in case the patient stops breathing...because that's what Propofol can do. So you should be PREPARED for it, and be happy if you won't need any of the stuff you have...but you should definately be aware of the possibility of an emergency and prepared to act accordingly if that happens. And since Murray was not monitoring MJ and since MJ wasn't intubated until the EMTs arrived, it shows Murray was acting recklessly and didn't have the proper knowledge of the drug and shouldn't have been giving it to MJ. And I don't care what amount he says he gave MJ. As soon as you give even a DROP of Propofol to someone....the standard of care requires you to have intubation gear, monitor, and trained staff around. And Murray had none of those. And if he decided to give Propofol ALONE in a HOME...and he had no idea what to do in an emergency and panicked...obviously he was NOT trained to give the drug. Patients are often not breathing in the OR after getting Propofol and the anesthesiologists don't panic. They are calm, do what they gotta do...give the drugs they need to give and the patients are okay. They don't panic because they KNOW what they are doing and are TRAINED for those exact emergencies. Murray obviously was not. WHich is again why he shouldn't have been giving the drug.

one of the articles implyed that chernoff was accusing amir have having fingerrpints on teh equipment and also brought up the nation of islam. seemed like he was fishing to say amir was involved and the NOI ordered it! is this what u are saying with the above quote?

its also intresting that theres been no reports about all the phonecalls murray made. we of course know about this .but yet again is selective reporting on the medias side. they dont want the public to know the facts

Yeah, the defence trying to make it look like Amir would have killed MJ. Well...didn't work.

 

[CherubimII]

true... but the reason the da made that decision is because its easier to prove manslaughter than murder 2 IN THIS CASE. they have a better chance of getting a conviction

I do pray you and the D.A are right. :angel:

 

[ginvid]

The temptation to close the thread is so great. You guys will simply not do what you are asked even if done so civilly.

this is not the thread for conspiracies, this is the thread for discussing what went on in court today. Not to spurt your own personal synopsis about what happened that day.

Keep on topic.

 

[Soundmind]

MJ's eyes wide open at the time of death another indication there was NO INFUSION before death. FURTHER MEDICAL PROOF IT WAS A BOLUS INJECTION for those who still doubt it.

MY THEORY: Murray started giving MJ propofol 15 to 10 mintues before the fatal dose ( those were detected in his urine ) .He was on the phone non stop , he realised MJ began to open his eyes he rushed and injected a RAPID bolus injection and MJ immeditley reacted. As we know from the research we have done on propofol, the blood concentrations found are consistent with death after one mintue of bolus injection.

 

[twinklEE]

Why should all of us bear the consequences of what few are responsible for? I don't want this thread closed, I want to be able to have a healthy factual, and respectful discussion (toward Michael), about the prelim.

 

[MsJustinBieber]

I do pray you and the D.A are right. :angel:

no she say the D.A. is wrong for involtary manslaughter charge but i not the one who say that a lady from the inside of the court room told that. and his team sat all way in back! and she said murray and the lawyers for him were all not confidint and ask useless questons that is not relevant.

 

[GThomson93]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sh...s_Involuntary_Manslaughter_Charge_In_LA_Court


I thought this article on SkyNews was pretty interesting. SkyNews were actually polite and didn't attack Jackson in any way really.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

@Ingelief no I was in the overflow room down the hall there was a live mic feed... it was only for press but me and a few others walked in with a notepad, smartphone and ID badge I made and no one said a thing!

Wow, that's gutsy. You rock. Thank you so much.

how long after death does the body cool. if medics are saying mj was cool at 12.30. i know theres google but ive looked b4 and it gave me nightmares some of the things i read. anyone know?

Check your PMs.

 

[MJFan07]

I wonder if this is true or not? It looks like some ppl try to make not important deatils more important than they are. If Murray really asked to give his a ride back home, he is just so stupid.

My guess is Murray asked for a ride back so he could double check that he had removed all the evidence. I don't think he cared about some cream. To me that statement implies that Murray was more concerned about covering his you know what than about grieving over the death that just occured.

 

[Ingelief]

but propofol has to be given continue to be asleep... if you give it and then walk away a patient wakes up again?

 

[ginvid]

Why should all of us bear the consequences of what few are responsible for? I don't want this thread closed, I want to be able to have a healthy factual, and respectful discussion (toward Michael), about the prelim.

I don't want it closed either. No one does. That is why you keep seeing warnings in the thread instead of a closing. But we can't keep getting ignored and too many people are doing this. Too many.

We keep asking for everyone to stay on topic. Can we please do this? You summed up exactly what this thread should be.

Thank you.

 

[Ingelief]

Im is so many lower than murder right? why being save? and do Im instate of demanding the highest like murder.. thats what he did

 

[MJFan07]

A lot of Murray's behavior before and after Michael died was odd.

That would be the understatement of the century. Murray's behavior was beyond odd and suspicious. The more I read, the more this man makes me sick.

 

[MsJustinBieber]

i forgot to say she told us that becuse murray and his lawyers was not confident and ask useless quetions and even rephrase same questions that it would be a easy thing for second degree murder and she question the D.A. on his decision for manslaughter