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Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
  • Start date
strange... karen was there so he spoke to her that must be maybe not about his health but they were both working the same goal.. the concerts right?
 
Ingelief said:
@mc8755 ok you fly all away over from ireland, are you staying two weeks?

and the live feed, do u know what they showed for evidence? like pictures? you said the fans where crying? how many where in there? and did the fam made a statement after words?
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Haha no no I've family in California I've been over here since Dec 27th for New Years and stuff, going back in a few days sadly
 
elusive moonwalker said:
how long after death does the body cool. if medics are saying mj was cool at 12.30. i know theres google but ive looked b4 and it gave me nightmares some of the things i read. anyone know?
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Hmm, was wondering as well, but than I figured: sometimes when you touch someone they feel very cold, it could've been that the person touching MJ was 'warm' and MJ felt 'cold' but was actually quite 'normal' in temperature...

Kinda strange cause the comment was "he felt cool to the touch" which implies they didnt take his temperature, I think.
 
Ramona122003 said:
The family also said nothing about Paris being upstairs, but had no problems putting Prince's name in a lawsuit.
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true, someone doesnt have the full story. i dnt think the guy is lying but the jacksons have the wrong info, unless the bodyguard is lying. well i wouldnt call it lying, someone jsut doesnt have the full story. n im sure if th jacksons knew both kids were upstairs it would be in the lawsuit
 
mc8755 said:
I dont know what media reported but all that happened was the defense laywer said to Kenny did he ever talk to Michael about his condition and he said no. He said did he talk to Michael's friends about it and he said no. He said he heard he had yelled at Michael long time friend and colleague Karen Faye about it and Kenny said he didn't. This was weird in general because Kenny had been giving such big answers before and he just said no to all these...
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Thank you so much for your updates...it helps to get information from someone who was there first hand.
 
be4mj said:
Actually, the new CPR standars de-emphasize the breaths in favor of chest compressions (revised by American Heart Association in 2010): http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthcare/New_CPR_guidelines_save_your_breath.html

Either way- it doesn't matter- you can breathe all you want (did he give mouth to mouth?- Was that testified to? You bring up a good point- as those still were the standards in 09, actually)- if you do the chest compressions on a soft surface it's all for naught. I also have my CPR certification (and I am a clinical social worker, NOT a doctor LOL)- and therefore know that the FIRST thing you are taught is to put the victim on a hard surface as otherwise the heart just gets pushed down and is not compressed between the chest bone and the spinal column (which is the whole point).

I hope to see more medical experts during the actual trial- that should leave no doubt about how imcompetent this "Doctor" is.
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true.. i work at a place where food is served and that is the very first step
 
elusive moonwalker said:
how long after death does the body cool. if medics are saying mj was cool at 12.30. i know theres google but ive looked b4 and it gave me nightmares some of the things i read. anyone know?
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Actually, this is a very good question, because a time of death is a key. It takes a pretty good time for a body to cool down. Besides, we have to remember that a fire place was ON in the middle of summer. I do not know why it was on. Was Michael feeling cold before he went to sleep?
 
mc8755 said:
I dont know what media reported but all that happened was the defense laywer said to Kenny did he ever talk to Michael about his condition and he said no. He said did he talk to Michael's friends about it and he said no. He said he heard he had yelled at Michael long time friend and colleague Karen Faye about it and Kenny said he didn't. This was weird in general because Kenny had been giving such big answers before and he just said no to all these...
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Thanks. This is not what the media reported.. fans that claim they were inside the court as well did not hear this at all
 
riviera1992 said:
So Ortega testifies that he was summoned and scolded by Murray to not play doctor and psychatrist to MJ?

How rude. Kenny should've answered back "Well excuse me for caring about my friend's health."
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Knowing what we do now, he should have told Murray the same thing.

elusive moonwalker said:
how long after death does the body cool. if medics are saying mj was cool at 12.30. i know theres google but ive looked b4 and it gave me nightmares some of the things i read. anyone know?
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I thought he was supposedly warm because of a fireplace turned on very high in the room. Was anything mentioned about the fireplace? I don't remember reading anything about it.

And if in fact he was cool at 12:30, would that confirm that he was gone long before Murray said he stopped breathing?
 
Asedora said:
I remember a video about TII before this movie aried from the october 2009 where Kenny was saying that Michael was helathy, happy and ready to perform. LIAR.
AEG will blame Murray for everything to cover their own asses.
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I think calling him a liar is a little harsh. He said MJ was out of it at a particular rehearsal, not at every rehearsal. He said his last two were great. Just like everyone else, MJ had good days and bad days.
 
chanel05 said:
1st dont tell me what i do and do not mean. 2nd if i wanted to say addicted i would have said that when i wrote it???? who's stopping me??? i said what i meant and im am not implying he was addicted. i said dependent cause that is what put him to sleep because it was hard for him to do so on his own. dont you play dumb here
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Not trying to single you out, but honestly, "addicted" and "dependent" is the same exact thing.

mc8755 said:
Okay from my point of view in the courthouse:

I didn't know that nobody was allowed upstairs besides Michael, the children and Murray... Mohammed was allowed up this time, saw Michael on the bed and he said he knew he was DEAD right there he had his eyes open he was totally gone, Murray very panicedly said did he know CPR... While they were saying this they showed pictures of the room Michael died in, I didn't see them but a lot of the fans who could were crying... Mohammed then realised that Prince was in the door way and he couldn't move, Paris was on the landing outside crying and so he took them down to the nanny, and the nanny put them in the car to follow the ambulance.

We all thanked Mohammed so many times when he came out of the courthouse for being so kind to Michael and the children...

The judge said he wanted to continue but he has a tight schedule so it starts all over again tomorrow morning at 9:30am... And could last for up to two weeks. :(
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very sad :( .....

what are all the accounts muarry is being charged with???? i know he is being charged with one count of manslaughtor.... is there anything else????

xthunderx2 said:
Murray seemed rather bored through the whole thing...I cannot believe that he would sit there untouched by what he did...he didnt care then and he till doesnt care....I am soo angry.
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true.. one of your patients just died AT YOUR HANDS and all you can think about is food????
 
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Ingelief said:
as asedora says

remember a video about TII before this movie aried from the october 2009 where Kenny was saying that Michael was helathy, happy and ready to perform. LIAR.
"
Thats what my post meant although im not calling him a liar i just dont understand the whole switsching of storys..

one he was fine
then he wasnt fine
then he was fine
now he was not fine but the are saying in pros he was fine..
so strange
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He never switched his story. Generally, MJ was fine but he had an off day here and there. That is normal.
 
Thrill said:
Thanks. This is not what the media reported.. fans that claim they were inside the court as well did not hear this at all
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Theres a lot of crap going around, only FIVE fans got into the court, all of them were Justice4MJ members and there were about 10-15 fans in the hallway/overflow room down the hall... everyone had written it down about Karen Faye at the same time so I don't see how they say it didn't happen? Why else would everyone write it... We need someone at the courthouse EARLY to try win a seat in the room or at least be one of the first to the overflow room mic system because it was so crowded it was really hard to hear over all the noise and beeping of cell phones. (AND BRING PAPER IT HELPS TRUST ME!)
 
mc8755 said:
Oh and something no one is talking about - Murray had a REALLY bad day today. His lawyers kept asking these stupid questions and the prosecution kept objecting and getting sustained.. and then they would ask again in a different way all the time about being allowed up to Michael's bedroom and would they find their fingerprints up there and all... It was stupid they were trying to make a case from nothing, today was absolutely a win for the prosecution!

And I heard this from a girl who got in the actual courtroom, Katherine was getting really angry when they were talking about Murray calling people the whole time and people kept leaning over to her and rubbing her back :'(
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hopefully after this muarry will plead guilty and admit to what he did and got to jail. that is so sad about katherine.. thanks for the info
 
chanel05 said:
it has nothing to do with what some posters on a message board think. it has to do with what they can SOLIDLY PROVE IN COURT. idk what country you are from but thats how the us system works. there are cases where i am sure that EVERYBODY knows the accused did the crime, but they get off because it cant be proved in the court of law. its tricky
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I'm from the U.S., and I know that the D.A. could have instructed the jury in the same court case to find for the choices of Second Degree Murder or the lesser charge of Involuntary Manslaughter. Now, the D.A. has given the jury only the choices of Involuntary Manslaughter or let Murray Walk on a Carribean Beach.

"Evil often has a Smell."
 
elusive moonwalker;3173718 said:
how long after death does the body cool. if medics are saying mj was cool at 12.30. i know theres google but ive looked b4 and it gave me nightmares some of the things i read. anyone know?
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http://www.dplylemd.com/Articles/timelydeath.html

Body Temperature:
Normal body temperature during life is 98.6 degrees F. After death, the body loses heat progressively until it equilibrates with that of the surrounding medium. The rate of this heat loss is approximately 1.5 degrees per hour until the environmental temperature is attained, then it remains stable. Obviously, this measure is greatly effected by location. A body in the snow in Minnesota in January and one in a Louisiana swamp in August will lose heat a widely divergent rates. These factors must be considered in any “estimate” of time of death.
The criminalist who processes the scene should take a body temperature and measure the temperature of the surrounding medium--air, water, snow, earth (if the body is buried). Ideally, the body temperature is taken rectally. Obviously, the sooner after death the body is found, the more accurately time of death can be assessed by this method. Once the body reaches ambient temperature, all bets are off.
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MJFan07 said:
I think calling him a liar is a little harsh. He said MJ was out of it at a particular rehearsal, not at every rehearsal. He said his last two were great. Just like everyone else, MJ had good days and bad days.
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Fellow fans saw that there were many BAD days and I hope some of them will testify in the court room as well. And I am not going to stop calling Ortega a liar because when they needed to sell TII he said NOTHING about MJ feeling not well. He was saying that everything was great however they mentioned that meeting at MJ house, but nobody said that MJ did not feel well that day.
 
AnnieRUOkay89 said:
Well, Cheryl Lee never stated when those calls were made, to my understanding. All she said was "a few weeks before he died", it's possible this was happening in the same time frame, or even the same night. Meaning, perhaps Michael called her for a second opinion, after being told by his hired physician, that he was fine. Of course, there's no way to prove that unless Ms. Lee is called to testify, which I haven't heard of happening yet.
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I recall that she said Michael called her the weekend before his death, so it would match the timeline Kenny gave.
 
"Body Temperature:
Normal body temperature during life is 98.6 degrees F. After death, the body loses heat progressively until it equilibrates with that of the surrounding medium. The rate of this heat loss is approximately 1.5 degrees per hour until the environmental temperature is attained, then it remains stable. Obviously, this measure is greatly effected by location. A body in the snow in Minnesota in January and one in a Louisiana swamp in August will lose heat a widely divergent rates. These factors must be considered in any “estimate” of time of death.
The criminalist who processes the scene should take a body temperature and measure the temperature of the surrounding medium--air, water, snow, earth (if the body is buried). Ideally, the body temperature is taken rectally. Obviously, the sooner after death the body is found, the more accurately time of death can be assessed by this method. Once the body reaches ambient temperature, all bets are off."


Remember - Michael was sedated which reduced his heart rate, so his body would have cooled faster than normal... That felt weird saying it about Michael :cry:
 
Asedora said:
Exactly. People have to understand that to treat insomnia problem you have to hire a specialist in this aria. Cradiologists DO NOT F*g treat insomnia! Murray was hired To HELP MJ to SLEEP. And this was WRONG on many levels from the beginning because if a person had obvious problems and needed help, you should not hire cardiologist to inject him with propofol.
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I hear you.
And painful as it might be, I agree with you on this.
He was playing with fire on this. He must have known :no:
 
CherubimII said:
Really what did he do before he came back to tell the police a different story "dipp out" or what?
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dipp out is slag for "left". he "dipped out" the hospital when he said he was gonna get food. then a few days later he gave the police an interview. from my understanding he never told more of what happened until a few days later.
 
Ramona122003 said:
That is not want I meant. Why wait so long to call for help if you trying to clean everything up. If that was not his attempt, why even bother to wast time. I mean, why call 911 so late anyway?

Sorry, but your statement lost me. Could you explain in dumb terms since I appeared to have missed.
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What the prosecution meant, as a doctor MJ's life should have been Murray's priority. As a doctor who knew what was given, he should have immediately called 911. MJ's life dependent heavily on arriving to the hospital as soon as possible not on calling bodygaurds.

They are not saying he did not try to revive MJ. He obvioulsy did. They are not saying he left MJ to hide the evidence ( intially). They are saying he tried to "fix the mess he caused" on his own eventhough he knew he did not have the means to do so and was compromising MJ's chances of being revived.

calling 911 immediatley was the thing a responsible doctor would do in that situation. The decision to delay that call was inorder to save his butt. Murray only considered at the time what was in Murray's best interests, "let's see if I can revive him with no one knowing what happened", when he did not succeed, he thought about cleaning the scene and AFTER that he asked for 911 , IT WAS TOO LATE FOR MJ .
 
Ashtanga said:
:( *big sigh*


Well....

Travis Payne was there. He has not spoken?

On the second day, who will be there to speak? :scratch:
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Travis Payne tried to get a seat in the courthouse and he was denied one so he left before it even started...
 
was travis there? wow.. wonder what he is thinking he trained also with michael right, at home?

Who will speak tomorow, its 2 am almost here so im going to bed soon...

and is there anyone going to try to get in court?

is the family gladd if the fans are there?
 
Thrill said:
Thanks for the updates but now there are rumours going around saying that Kenny Ortega wasnt asked any questions about Karen Faye. Some ppl saying they were inside the court did NOT hear Kenny talking about Karen at all.
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one thing to watch out for: 10 people can sit in a room and here the same thing, and come out with different versions. im not saying the poster is lying. im just referring to the part where you said some people said, and some didint
 
MJFan07 said:
He never switched his story. Generally, MJ was fine but he had an off day here and there. That is normal.
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and i'm sure he was talking about MJ taking in his conideration the fact that MJ was 50 years old and did not preforme for a decade,,,so i guess he tried to put it in a better light at that time !
 
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