Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

[Sophielo]

The testimony about Michael's children listing his allergies is very interesting to me.

To my shame, I could not tell you what my mother is allergic to! But those children knew and they knew because their father told them. I am thinking this is another indication of how health conscious Michael was.

Yeah me neither. I wouldn't know what my parent's allergies were so it's telling that all three kids knew what he was allergic to.

 

[Sdeidjs]

For those of us that have questions...

What is a Preliminary Hearing:

Within some criminal justice systems, a Preliminary Hearing (evidentiary hearing) is a proceeding, after a criminal complaint has been filed by the prosecutor, to determine whether there is enough evidence to require a trial. In the United States, the judge must find there is probable cause that a crime was committed.

At such a hearing, the defendant may be assisted by counsel; in U.S. jurisdictions, there is a right to counsel at the preliminary hearing.[1] A preliminary hearing is not always required. In the U.S., if the defendant is charged with a federal felony, he has the right to an indictment by a grand jury pursuant to the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution. The defendant is not entitled to counsel at grand jury proceedings, and indeed may not even know that a grand jury is considering his or her case.

The conduct of the preliminary hearing as well as the specific rules regarding the admissibility of evidence vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Hearsay is typically allowed. Should the court decide that there is probable cause, a formal charging instrument (called the Information in some jurisdictions) will issue; and the prosecution will continue. If the court should find that there is no probable cause, then typically the prosecution will cease.

Many jurisdictions, however, allow the prosecution to seek a new preliminary hearing, or even seek a bill of indictment from a grand jury.

Some important questions, generally addressed in such a hearing, are:

1.) Did the alleged crime occur within the court's jurisdiction?

2.) Is there probable cause, to believe that the defendant committed the crime?

If a judge determines that there is sufficient evidence to believe that the defendant committed the crime, it is said that the defendant is "held to answer" or "bound over" (in U.S. jurisdictions).

After a defendant is held to answer, the judge will set a date for arraignment.

A new pleading is filed with the court (sometimes called an "information") and the defendant can enter a plea at his or her arraignment date. The defendant is usually given the date that he will officially stand trial at this arraignment.

In the United States, since a preliminary hearing is a "critical stage" of the proceeding, an indigent suspect is entitled to court-appointed counsel at the preliminary hearing. Coleman v. Alabama, 399 U.S. 1 (1970).

Source: Wickipedia

Peace, Happiness, L.O.V.E

God Bless Always :angel:~~~

:rollingpeace: :rollingpeace:

 

[Asedora]

^ also female Rushka his designer said that MJ in general was happy , healthy and strong ,,,so maybe there were few days in the last week when things turned bad , maybe Murray began his plan B . who knows !

Yeah... almost like agent 007. Plan B sounds like a very deep thinking.

 

[bluetopez]

WOW! STOP focusing so much on the damn cream! That ain't the thing that killed MJ! Sound like tabloid up in here! If the media focus on that and talk about that more then anything else....I say, so what's knew? Don't expect the media to play nice now! But, don't do the same as they! Focuse on the real issues PLEASE!

 

[ivy]

My local news in the east coast is reporting the prelim hearing. For local news it will be a short national story. They expressed that Murray in minimum waited for 9 minutes before calling 911. It seems that's what the media channels perceived as the most important information of the day.

 

[AnnieRUOkay89]

Talking about Ortega testifying today. Ortega defenders made a point here that he was talking about one day MJ condition. Give me a break folks! I just have to tell you, that any professional physician will agree that insomnia, depression and similar conditions DO NOT appear and disappear overnight. It is very obvious “day by day” disorder. Ortega must know about that and they had to stop rehearsals completely and bring him to rehab at least. If Ortega cared that much about Michael “well being” as he claims, this is the first thing he had to do. Ortega was lying in the video clip when AEG was promoting TII movie, saying that MJ was healthy, because the main goal at that time was to make as much cash as possible. I remember fans were throwing stones on me when I was saying that TII movie looks so wrong to me on many levels and Michael did not look healthy at all. Thanks God I did not go to watch this movie and did not increase their profits. Now everybody goes nuts about this vitiligo cream, which is not important detail. If bodyguards, hired by AEG try to make it important, it does not mean that this is. I hope judge will look at other details too.

#1. The only one who made the "cream" important was Murray, reasons being he used it as an excuse, effectively raising it's importance by saying, "Michael didn't want the world to know". (Not trying to make this a debate about cream, just pointing that out.)

#2. Your bolded part, you are correct, but nowhere in Kenny's testimony did he mention insomnia or Michael being depressed. Complaining of having chills, and reportedly being, out of it at the time, does not, imply insomnia or depression.

 

[chanel05]

Didnt Katherine claim in her lawsuit that the AEG guy was at MJ's house on the 18th saying that MJ should miss no more rehearsals or he would pull the plug?
So on the 18th you get AEG yelling at Mike, the 19th MJ feels 'sick' and gets sent home. The 20th Murray is telling Ortega he should mind his own business....

The last two rehearsals MJ was supposedly fine and doing GREAT.
--> how in the world anyone can say this is beyond me cause honestly, if I watch TII I'm glad to see MJ perform once more but I wouldnt call it GREAT just yet, the guy didnt even do the moonwalk....

Plus: what does all of this have to do with MJ dying anyway? He didn't die because he was ill, he died because of acute propofol intoxication... Murray admits he gave MJ propofol, also the days before... Maybe after all the BS in the previous days MJ really wanted to get some good nights of sleep and Murray decided to up the dose or something...

all of that stuff paints the picture of the events that led up to his death. also this is only a prelim, so they are just presenting their case

 

[Sophielo]

The headline of the UK's Sun newspaper has the 20 minute delay in calling 911 as one of its main headlines. The 911 delay is the soundbyte of the day to the media.

 

[Ingelief]

wel the past days that he was ill can prove murray was a bad doctor

 

[chanel05]

yes,,thank you Elusive...and that was the only thing I was trying to get to about WHY Michael was sick on those other days. I know he wasn't sick because of an illness,,,he was sick because Murray was giivng him diprivan. Who knows maybe Murray may of brought him to the edge of death a couple of other times that we are not aware of also. Murray is a idiot.

if he was sick those days because of propofol, then he would have been sick all of the other days he was recieving also. he didnt just start recieving propofol a few days before he died. i guess muarry was trying to use something else to put him to sleep

 

[wendy2004]

exactlyif you put all the days together..19th 20th and 21st...THIS IS telling a story.....but I am not gonna fight with you.....lets just sit back and see how this plays out...I guarantee you...YOU will be wrong this time..

Well, right now we have a story of Kenny being concerned about the shivers on the 19th and Nurse Lee allegedly talking about the hot/cold incident on the 21st. I'm not up to speed on the thread but has anyone mentioned an incident of MJ being ill on the 20th or the 22nd? The 18th? By all accounts he seemed to be back in shape on the 23rd and 24th.

And when did this become about who's right and who's wrong? . This is about finding out what happened to Michael based on FACTS, not perception and people generalizing incidents.

Quite frankly that does not look like a trusting patient-doctor relationship to me when the person with theoretical 24/7 access to his own personal physician prefers to call an outside nurse when not feeling well.

On top of that Michael did not sign his own physician's contract- who is driving the unsigned contract around in his car when it was impounded.

I've always wondered about this. If Murray had the contract with him when he showed up on the night before, why didn't he give it to Michael to review and sign since time was short? If all they were waiting for was for the money terms to worked out, once that was done, why didn't Michael just sign it that night so Murray could fax it to AEG asap? I have also wondered if Michael may have been changing his mind about Murray.

i agree with xtthunder...

oh and he kenny said michael said to him on the 20st he was fine..
but he called the nurse on 21st and said he wasnt fine..

So for me those three days are going to be a big deal i hope in the courtrome, but what xtthunder says whe have to wait and see..

but i still say its importend and it wasnt a flue.. it was for me something else.. worse..

we arent scared if we have the flue.. whe are scared if it is something else right?

For the record, I did not say Michael may have had the flu, nor was I implying that he could have. My point was that someone could be ill for a number of consecutive days without their life being in jeopardy.

I "believe" that whatever was making Michael feel not well was the result of whatever Murray was giving him. I'll leave it there cuz my Klein theory would be speculation and this is about MURRAY.

I don't understand why Murray would get so defensive Kenny telling Michael to go home and get some rest. He wasn't feeling well that day. For him not to act like some doctor or psychiatrist. He knew Michael for like 20 years and if Michael didn't look well and he agreed to go home.

What's interesting here tho, is that Michael allegedly (according to Kenny) backed Murray up and said he was fine and for Kenny not worry. Kenny felt reassured by this.

i agree



true.... it also shows taht muaryy had to be giving him something that was messing with his body. i think thats what they are trying to show in court. something was wrong before jun 25



yes it does matter. it shows what was happening before he died. it is actually very important, that is why it is being brought up. im sure the prosecution knows what they are doing also they arent saying he had a illness that led to death, we know that, but he had problems from whatever he was being administered.



i agree



from what is said, mj nor aeg signed it but they knew he was around and was working for mj.



his shivering wasnt from him being cold. it was the summer time in los angeles and he was up onstage dancing and rehearshing. it shows that something was wrong for him to be shivering cold under thise circumstances



i agree.... something isnt right

Bold part. I think we can all agree on that. What seems to be getting lost here is that some are acting as if Michael was unhealthy and being given something that made him worse. Autopsy shows he was on the small-side physically BUT for the most part, healthy. It's what Murray was pumping MJ with that was causing problems, NOT an illness.

____

Dang I got a lotta pages to catch up on. **(&@!

 

[ivy]

The headline of the UK's Sun newspaper has the 20 minute delay in calling 911 as one of its main headlines. The 911 delay is the soundbyte of the day to the media.

yep that's what my local news picked up as well.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

and get you into rehab".

rehab for what?

 

[bluetopez]

I saw the HLN news the sister channel to CNN! And they reported on everything that I heard so far, including the 911 delay!

 

[The Healer]

Talking about Kenny, I remember I have read somewhere that he said he will carry Michael on the stage if he needs to.Not saying that"s true...but .
TII has a lot to do with this. Over 100 hours of footage..that is still a mystery for me.
BIG money was involved in TII. Their biggest concern was to get Michael on stage, no matter what.
So many ppl changed their story so many times. What is THE ULTIMATE TRUTH ?
It is unbelivable that a doctor did what he did. Or what he did not do.
Why the hell didn"t the bodyguards call 911 immidiately ????!!!
The hospital was only 5 mins away, for God"s sake ! Why did they have to wait for Murray to tell them so ?!
u.n.b.e.l.i.v.a.b.l.e.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

The headline of the UK's Sun newspaper has the 20 minute delay in calling 911 as one of its main headlines. The 911 delay is the soundbyte of the day to the media.

been better if it went with the orignal timeline. i take it the prosecution arent going with what murray said first time around?

 

[Ingelief]

strange they dont mention the rest, like the bad cpr or the propofol without instruments

 

[elusive moonwalker]

if he was sick those days because of propofol, then he would have been sick all of the other days he was recieving also. he didnt just start recieving propofol a few days before he died. i guess muarry was trying to use something else to put him to sleep

who knows. if he were giving it to mj all that time he would have been gone alot earlier imo

 

[Vici]

No I totally agree with you.. .but think about this... she was protecting his privacy and HER paycheck while he was alive. He's gone now, so there is no one to stop her from speaking... u see what I'm getting at?

Noone was forcing Karen to write blissful things about Michael and the tour. If she wanted to protect Michaels privacy she should have done what the rest of the crew did - NOT TALKING TO FANS!! What she says NOW is clearly NOT what she said pre June 25.

i agree. she couldnt say much because she was under contract.

Karen shouldnt had said anything back then. She could have kept the fans out of it but she included them from day one by writing to fans how great Michael were in rehearsals and they were all so excited.

I'm thinking now that's the case, that Michael was questioning Murray. Murray is being painted to seem more like "an enforcer" than a doctor (re: Ortega's testimony). I never could understand why Michael would call a NURSE, rather than his personal physician? That's making sense, now. . . The unsigned contract also makes sense, in light of that. (Michael did NOT sign it. . . )

Yes!!

 

[Asedora]

#1. The only one who made the "cream" important was Murray, reasons being he used it as an excuse, effectively raising it's importance by saying, "Michael didn't want the world to know".

#2. Your bolded part, you are correct, but nowhere in Kenny's testimony did he mention insomnia or Michael being depressed. Complaining of having chills, and reportedly being, out of it at the time, does not, imply insomnia or depression.

Kenny does not need to mention about MJ insomnia. We all know abouit his constant insomnia without Kenny and the judge will know aboit it too. There are will be specialists involved I hope who will make it clear.

And please stop about this cream. It is not important. If AEG wants it to be important to make Murray just one guilty, there are people who will not believe it.

 

[xthunderx2]

if he was sick those days because of propofol, then he would have been sick all of the other days he was recieving also. he didnt just start recieving propofol a few days before he died. i guess muarry was trying to use something else to put him to sleep

Murray SAYS that he was giving Michael propofol for 6 weeks prior...maybe he is lying about that to...maybe he started giving Michael the proporfol on the 19th,,,,how do we know...Murray is a lyer as we know..I cannot believe anything that he says...I am just baseing this comment on the times that Michael started appearing not well....and that was on the 19th.

 

[chanel05]

Bold part. I think we can all agree on that. What seems to be getting lost here is that some are acting as if Michael was unhealthy and being given something that made him worse. Autopsy shows he was on the small-side physically BUT for the most part, healthy. It's what Murray was pumping MJ with that was causing problems, NOT an illness.

____

Dang I got a lotta pages to catch up on. **(&@!

i know its not some illness he had. but its important that he wasnt feeling well due to what muarry was giving him

 

[mthalen]

rehab for what?

Ah, I must've misread the part about the propofol and the drugs being used. And MJ's family talking about an intervention...

Sorry, my bad, it's perfectly fine for a man to use propofol to sleep.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I'm thinking now that's the case, that Michael was questioning Murray. Murray is being painted to seem more like "an enforcer" than a doctor (re: Ortega's testimony). I never could understand why Michael would call a NURSE, rather than his personal physician? That's making sense, now. . . The unsigned contract also makes sense, in light of that. (Michael did NOT sign it. . . )

yeah there was always that talk that mj didnt want him to go to london and with him ringing up lee instead. seems murray was concerned about the $ and his job falling through. he wanted mj to go to london whatever the cost

 

[MJStorm]

Karen Faye is a psycho.

Yep. And the worst part is: she is not the only one.

 

[thrillerchild]

*sigh* :no:

I'll also do daily summaries each night.

Thank you Ivy

 

[TheChosenOne]

Thanks, Ivy!

Don't see why this is news. But why am I surprised - just because we (the fan community) knew about this time lag since 2009, maybe?

 

[mthalen]

It just makes a good headline: "Doctor waited 20 minutes before calling 911"...

 

[Ashtanga]

New updates????

 

[xthunderx2]

Well, right now we have a story of Kenny being concerned about the shivers on the 19th and Nurse Lee allegedly talking about the hot/cold incident on the 21st. I'm not up to speed on the thread but has anyone mentioned an incident of MJ being ill on the 20th or the 22nd? The 18th? By all accounts he seemed to be back in shape on the 23rd and 24th.

And when did this become about who's right and who's wrong? . This is about finding out what happened to Michael based on FACTS, not perception and people generalizing incidents.



I've always wondered about this. If Murray had the contract with him when he showed up on the night before, why didn't he give it to Michael to review and sign since time was short? If all they were waiting for was for the money terms to worked out, once that was done, why didn't Michael just sign it that night so Murray could fax it to AEG asap? I have also wondered if Michael may have been changing his mind about Murray.




For the record, I did not say Michael may have had the flu, nor was I implying that he could have. My point was that someone could be ill for a number of consecutive days without their life being in jeopardy.

I "believe" that whatever was making Michael feel not well was the result of whatever Murray was giving him. I'll leave it there cuz my Klein theory would be speculation and this is about MURRAY.



What's interesting here tho, is that Michael allegedly (according to Kenny) backed Murray up and said he was fine and for Kenny not worry. Kenny felt reassured by this.



Bold part. I think we can all agree on that. What seems to be getting lost here is that some are acting as if Michael was unhealthy and being given something that made him worse. Autopsy shows he was on the small-side physically BUT for the most part, healthy. It's what Murray was pumping MJ with that was causing problems, NOT an illness.

____

Dang I got a lotta pages to catch up on. **(&@!

you are correct this is not about who is right and who is wrong...it is about Michael...it is about finding out about what Murray did to him...and when...also we KNOW that Murray is a liar..I know we are here for 1 reason and that is for Michael...